is this ammonia ok to use to cycle? look at video

[neupane00]

hey guys, pls look at video link below. is it ok to use to fishless cycle tank? when i shake it i see lot of foam forming on top. Altho the ingredient says just "ammonia hydroxide" and bottle says Clear Ammonia. Pls look at the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJBlY-Lqf3s

[rhoptowit]

if your in doubt, you always can use a dead shrimp/krill to kick start the cycle.

[loosecannon]

Live rock, just live rock . No wend-x, no carpet cleaner, no shrimp , no dead rat`s , no puppy`s , just live rock and live sand!

[Jeff]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15235765#post15235765 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by loosecannon
Live rock, just live rock . No wend-x, no carpet cleaner, no shrimp , no dead rat`s , no puppy`s , just live rock and live sand!
I agree.

[JennyL]

Hi neupane00,
When using ammonia to cycle, you need to be sure you use ammonia that has only water added, nothing else.

I have cycled many tanks using ammonia and live bacteria and it's a very clean and successful way to cycle.

HTH :)

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15235765#post15235765 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by loosecannon
Live rock, just live rock . No wend-x, no carpet cleaner, no shrimp , no dead rat`s , no puppy`s , just live rock and live sand!

Amen!

[RegalAngel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15235929#post15235929 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JennyL
Hi neupane00,
When using ammonia to cycle, you need to be sure you use ammonia that has only water added, nothing else.

I have cycled many tanks using ammonia and live bacteria and it's a very clean and successful way to cycle.

HTH :)

I agree with this method. And if setting up a quarantine tank (QT) it can be used as well to cycle the bio media. Of course one does not want live rock, sand, etc in a QT.

[tspors]

Wow, another person wants to rush a tank.

[wooden_reefer]

Ammonia doesn't stink. Not much, so people use it.

I have doubts about the completeness of ammonia, as there is a good chance that there are other bacteria that is beneficial.

I use decay of food at least once during the cycle. Blend a small shrimp until milky; this promotes aerobic decay.

[wooden_reefer]

The necessary best method of cycling are not the same for reef tank and a fish dominant tank.

For a fish dominant tank, cycling should be deliberate and decisive in order to support heavy bioload immediately upon conclusion of the cycle. Otherwise, each time you add a 4-5" fish, the increment of bioload is quite significant, especially going from one to two, or two to three. Gradualism in cycling for a fish dominant tank is the road to possible problems.

Gradualism in this case is mini-cycle that subject fish to low levels of ammonia.

Your fish should not be subject to any ammonia.

[tmz]

You don't need it. Live rock will do.

[wooden_reefer]

Cycling is an absurdly simple process for both reef tank and fish dominant tank.

I never use LR to cycle a tank. I believe that true collected LR, like other livestock, should be placed into a tank that is already cycled.

I cycle with dead man-made rock or a temperory medium first.

[wooden_reefer]

Spending close to a thousand bucks for collected LR and then allowing the life forms on it to decay for cycling must be one of the most absurd ideas invented.

[drucifer42301]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15237951#post15237951 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
Spending close to a thousand bucks for collected LR and then allowing the life forms on it to decay for cycling must be one of the most absurd ideas invented.

I didn't spend close to a thousand on the LR for my 29gal, but I wish I had somehow done it differently. No telling what all was killed in the process.

[Superstretch18]

Most of the organisms that die on live rock die during shipping. Even if you cycle the tank otherwise, as soon as you add fresh live rock, the tank is going to re-cycle because of mass amounts of die off. Unfortunately, with the way that live rock is treated from the ocean to your tank, it's almost unavoidable.

I say almost, because if you do happen to get live rock that was transported well, your tank will cycle pretty much as soon as you put it into the tank, regardless if it was cycled via another method ahead of time...

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15238086#post15238086 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Superstretch18
Most of the organisms that die on live rock die during shipping. Even if you cycle the tank otherwise, as soon as you add fresh live rock, the tank is going to re-cycle because of mass amounts of die off. Unfortunately, with the way that live rock is treated from the ocean to your tank, it's almost unavoidable.

I say almost, because if you do happen to get live rock that was transported well, your tank will cycle pretty much as soon as you put it into the tank, regardless if it was cycled via another method ahead of time...

Well, many will have died but I think one wants as much (many) lives saved as possible. You paid for them, otherwise LR collected would not be so expensive. I always ask for LR the least "cured" and the freshest.

No my tanks do not re-cycle. This is because the nitritification capacity of my tanks at the end of cycle is so high that it will clear all ammonia. This is why robust cycling is so beneficial. I cycle with the worst future pollution in mind, when it comes the nitrification capacity will be enough.

The idea of a tank cycling itself is not reasonable. Reduced exposure to ammonia leads to reduced losses in life. This is the whole idea of cycling: suddenly cycling is not necessary is not a valid argument, IMO.

If only you state that high ammonia will destroy pest but allow good guys to linger on, then I will consider cycling with collected LR.

Gradualism is good AFTER cycling decisvely. In fact, cycling thoroughly is good even for a reef tank, only not as apparently necessary as for a fish dominant tank.

Gradualism in cycling for a fish dominant tank is a detrimental fad.

[wooden_reefer]

During cycling, if you blend one medium sized shrimp into milk in a blender and add it to your filter medium intended for a 50 gal tank, a week apart for three or four times, then after cycling the medium will handle about one medium shrimp worth of ammonia quickly. This is likely more than the amount of decayable material in the live rock intended for the 50 gal system.

Why would there be re-cycling?

There must be enough sites for bacterial growth in the medium.

[Superstretch18]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15238498#post15238498 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
During cycling, if you blend one medium sized shrimp into milk in a blender and add it to your filter medium intended for a 50 gal tank, a week apart for three or four times, then after cycling the medium will handle about one medium shrimp worth of ammonia quickly. This is likely more than the amount of decayable material in the live rock intended for the 50 gal system.

Why would there be re-cycling?

There must be enough sites for bacterial growth in the medium.

You know, I came very close to replying "you're insane" but the more I think about this, the more I think you might be on to something.

If you were to cycle with only ammonia, you are only developing the nitrifying bacteria. There is an important first step to that process that you would be missing though; the heterotrophic bacteria that physically break down organic matter. By using shrimp, you are also culturing the decomposers, which you would need to break down the organics on the fresh live rock.

I also see that by boosting the bacteria levels above what would normally be in the tank, I see how you could minimize any nutrient spike. Very interesting...

You won't catch me going this route anytime soon, but I can see how it could be really effective, so long as you have enough base rock to serve as a culture media.

Different strokes...

[Kur]

It was hard to tell from the video, but if that was foam in the bottle after you shook it, then DO NOT USE IT.

Any ammonia you use to cycle should not foam at all if shook.


And this is a very good way to kick off a cycle. The cycle can't start without ammonia so why not just put ammonia in the tank? Why all the hassle and smell of letting dead things rot in your tank?

And the shrimp method does not always work. I tried it and ended up with smelly water with ZERO ammonia after 3 weeks. And the shrimp were reduced to mush, which was a real treat to pull out of my tank...

And what is wrong with speeding up the cycling process? Are the bacteria you grew going to suddenly die off because it took 3 weeks instead of 6?

Ammonia and some live rock. That will get you cycled.

[wooden_reefer]

Just because you don't use foam doesn't mean that the ammonia is pure. Chancy.

Ammonium nitrate is a better source if you use ammonia. I don't anymore. Don't scream I am not insane. I change 100% of the water after cycling. I use a smaller amount of water than the DT to cycle so I am not wasteful.

You don't have to cycle in the DT. You can transfer the cycled material to the DT after cycling.

[wooden_reefer]

Nitriification bacteria don't dieoff quickly.

If bacteria as a class of life form die off easily from starvation, then there would not be so many bacterial diseases. They stay inactive for a long time before they die off, so do nitrification bacteria.

The history of cycling lingers on for a long time.

The seed and waste method always works. As long as the earth spins, there will be aerobic decay ammonification by bacteria, nitrification by bacteria under aerobic conditions.

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15237951#post15237951 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
Spending close to a thousand bucks for collected LR and then allowing the life forms on it to decay for cycling must be one of the most absurd ideas invented.

Now talk about absurd. The live rock has bacterial colonies. The die off is part of the shipping.

If you use dead rock and blended shrimp, do you remove it at some point and then replace it with live rock that was kept where exactly?

If you remove the dead rock you just removed all the bacteria that were cultured .
Since there was no live rock to seed them into the system the first place there might not be very many.. Nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria are benthic and don't live in the water column.

If you don't remove the dead rock(now presumably cultured to be live) then why do you need live rock at all and where do you put it?

When you add live rock, the cycle will start over unless it is fully cured which could have been done in the tank.

Mixing in some properly cleaned dry rock is an efficient way to set up a tank but live rock is needed to seed the bacteria and other life forms.

To minimize the die off if that's a concern, the live rock can be put in the tank with or without mixing in dead rock and allowed cycle without adding extra decay or nitrogen sources. Skimming won't hurt nor will water changes along the way. Then when 0 ammonia levels hold for 2 weeks livestock can be added gradually allowing the gradual increase in bioload to enhance the biofilter's capacity.

:confused: :confused:

[Everyones Hero]

I don't understand how this is becoming such an in-depth conversation.

The nitrogen cycle is fairly simple:

Ammonia
-Bacterial Bloom 1
Nitrite
-Bacterial Bloom 2
Nitrate

After the initial bloom the bacteria that turns ammonia into nitrite will have some die-off if there's isn't enough ammonia to support all of it. Same with the 2nd bloom. The bacterial growth will be limited by the amount of ammonia or nitrite present. It's self-regulating like many things in nature.

You can add a gallon of ammonia to "kick start" your cycle, and eventually enough bacteria will reproduce to convert it it nitrite. But once that ammonia is used up & a lesser amount is present the bacteria will reduce itself in number to balance itself out.
---

You don't need LR to get bacteria. Dry rock is sufficient for me. Add it to the tank, add water, add salt, wait. The tank will eventually cycle and become stable. I just don't have to worry about the stench of dead crap decaying like I would using LR, nor do I have to worry about parasitic hitchhikers like I would with LR.
---

No matter how "hard" you cycle a tank it will be no more stable or safe from a mini-cycle as someone that used dry rock & flake food to cycle their tank if something dies 6 months down the road. The masses of bacteria from the cycle won't just go into hibernation waiting for the day they can come out of hiding to save the day.

[wooden_reefer]

Some decay is necessary because we don't live near a clean tropical ocean, but it can be min by putting the collected LR in a cycled tank to save as many lives as possible. Less ammonia means less die off and for less period of time.

You need some collected LR for seeds. Seeds for what? Not nitrification or denitrification bacteria. They are plentiful everywhere. The seeds needed in collected LR are those of higher life forms or may be other bacteria.

The dead rock will become live soon in two senses. It will develop nitrification bacteria: ie cycle. To do so you do not need any collected LR. Only for seeds of higher life forms or other microbes do you need some collected LR, so that all rock in the tank would become live with higher life forms or perhaps other microbes not fully known.

LR is a superior form of filtration over older methods, but not for cycling; you can use dead LR to cycle, not necessarily bad, but this is not necessarly the best way. LR is bulky and cannot be divided up as easily as crush oyster shells, for example. Using collected LR to cycle makes no sense whatsoever.

Decouple water quality after cycling with cycling. You do not need to cycle in the DT. You can transfer the cycled medium to the DT.

[wooden_reefer]

There are still many unknowns in this hobby as to microbial and higher life forms ecology interactions etc but one thing can be sure:

Elevated ammonia cannot be good or necessary for life except those that feed on it; lack of ammonia in the bulk of the water must be good and closer to natural.

Gradualism for life forms balance and growth in a reef tank should be based on natural low or no ammonia in the water.

[wooden_reefer]

Yes, cycling is an absurdly simple process.

I must say that the use of LR to cycle creates some unexpected complexity. LR is bulky and people frequently couple water quality after cycling with cycling, as they tend to cycle in the DT.

The use of collected LR using the decay of natural lives on the LR as a source of ammonia to cycle is truly a very silly fad that is spread by thoughtlessness.

Likely 80% or more of the collected LR sold in LFS is based on a money making fad. Only a small amount of collected LR is really needed to seed a tank with higher life forms and perhaps unknown oceanic microbes.

May be 5% of the total LR in a tank should have been collected LR.

[loosecannon]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15237951#post15237951 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
Spending close to a thousand bucks for collected LR and then allowing the life forms on it to decay for cycling must be one of the most absurd ideas invented. 1) put live rock in rubber maid tub, when water in tank tempter, pH , and sg. are were they shuold be add live rock . Put protein skimmer on to. And test.:rolleyes:

[loosecannon]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15243859#post15243859 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
Just because you don't use foam doesn't mean that the ammonia is pure. Chancy.

Ammonium nitrate is a better source if you use ammonia. I don't anymore. Don't scream I am not insane. I change 100% of the water after cycling. I use a smaller amount of water than the DT to cycle so I am not wasteful.

You don't have to cycle in the DT. You can transfer the cycled material to the DT after cycling. So after you cycle your tank you take out 100% of the cycled water, and put in 100% on cyceld water, a ha ! Ok .:rollface:

[loosecannon]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15239670#post15239670 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Superstretch18
You know, I came very close to replying "you're insane" but the more I think about this, the more I think you might be on to something.

If you were to cycle with only ammonia, you are only developing the nitrifying bacteria. There is an important first step to that process that you would be missing though; the heterotrophic bacteria that physically break down organic matter. By using shrimp, you are also culturing the decomposers, which you would need to break down the organics on the fresh live rock.

I also see that by boosting the bacteria levels above what would normally be in the tank, I see how you could minimize any nutrient spike. Very interesting...

You won't catch me going this route anytime soon, but I can see how it could be really effective, so long as you have enough base rock to serve as a culture media.

Different strokes... Super-star, The 2# step is Heterotrophic . That takes place dipe in the live rock. :p

[loosecannon]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15238498#post15238498 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
During cycling, if you blend one medium sized shrimp into milk in a blender and add it to your filter medium intended for a 50 gal tank, a week apart for three or four times, then after cycling the medium will handle about one medium shrimp worth of ammonia quickly. This is likely more than the amount of decayable material in the live rock intended for the 50 gal system.

Why would there be re-cycling?

There must be enough sites for bacterial growth in the medium. If your wearied a bout your live rock. just live the tank a lone and the tank will cycle all by it`s self . The bacteria will just waft in from the air.:eek:

[tmz]

Everyone,

Your description of the nitrogen cycle is incomplete. Nitrate is harmful in a reef environment.Much less so in a fish only tank.The denitrifcation phase performed by heterotrophic anaerobic bacteria which convert the nitrate(NO3) to free nitrogen is part of the cycle in a fuctioning reef.Much of this activity occurs inside live rock or in the substrate.

So far the discussion has touched on not only the nitrification and now denitrification processes but other topics such as a way to preserve life in live rock during the cycling process. After your post wether or not to use live rock and wether or not sufficient bacterial diversity for a reef can be efficiently established with only dry rock and perhaps a sprinkle of food has been added to the list. So it's really past the simplicity of NH3/4->N2->NO3 which isn't all that simple anyway.

First, I agree that bacteria will proliferate and wane based on organic and in some cases inorganic food supply and energy sources such as oxygen and in some cases light. Jacking up the nitrogen , carbon or phosphate with inorganic compounds such as ammonia or extra heavy doses of food or other organics will increase bacterial activity but it will be short lived. The biofilter will only be as strong as the food and energy supply at any point in time allows it to be. Which is why in my initial post , I clearly stated only the live rock to be used in the tank would be more than enough and discouraged adding extra ammonia or waste. Get the tank processing it's own waste. Stabilize ammonia and add livestock gradually.

Wether the rock is cured in a tank or a vat is of no consequence. How it is cured is.Attention to cleaning off debris, water changes to limit water spikes and aeration to maintain oxygen levels are examples of steps that if taken in the curing process can help preserve some of the life in and on the rock. Adding ammonia will kill more things more quickly and serves no useful purpose.

Dry rock vs live rock is an interesting question and hardly one that can be dismissed as simple fad or a hip shot % of one to the other. Can enough nitrifying bacteria be established without any live rock or live sand? Maybe. Will they be strains indigenous to the reef maybe/ probably not. Will the heterotrophic anaerobic bacteria that denitrify in the hypoxic areas of the rock/and or substrate emerge? Will the strains of bacteria that develop during a cycle without live sand or live rock be diverse enough to prevent sub optimal activity by overly dominant strains?Even if all of these questions can be answered favorably or a commercial bacterial product is added in an effort to develop a balanced and efficient biofilter, what about coraline. pods, polychaetes, fan worms, sponges,mollusks and other benthic fauna? Where will they come from?

I've used dry rock. It has a down side. It often has been exposed to phosphate which will leach back and feed nuisance algae. It can take a very long time to develop adequate denitrification and what seems like forever to develop coraline algae even when mixed with live rock.. In an established reef I prefer to add dry rock after being sure it is free of phospahte . I cure it in ro water and check it. I like using dry rock once a tank is established since I'm more confident no undesireable pests are hitching in but I'm not certain about unwanted chemical impuirties . In a new reef system , I strongly prefer well cured quality live rock at least as a substantial proportion of the overall mix.

[wooden_reefer]

There is a reason to have definitions, but also just definitions.

Cycling is a specific word, to me and I think to most people in the hobby, on nitrification, ie, the aerobic part of the nitrogen cycle.

This is not to say the other parts of the nitrogen cycle is not important, it is.

There is also a practical reason. The harm of nitrate is slow to come while ammonia is present and imminent danger, really deadly to fish. If an aquarist knows how to create an environment for the complete nitrogen cycle, he or she can ease into denitrification for long term health of the tank.

And the point is also that denitrification bacteria do not have to be obtained from collected LR, they are also found in numerous other sources. You do not need collected LR to have both nitrification and denitrification.

The reason for collected LR should be higher life forms and (perhaps) other microbes that may be beneficial that one cannot obtain from other cheap or free sources.

[wooden_reefer]

Cycling is an absurdly simple process,

Basically, $20 and 20-30 days. A large bioload can then be carried.

For many large fish in a tank, high nitrification capacity is necessary.

[terrinstevereef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15235765#post15235765 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by loosecannon
Live rock, just live rock . No wend-x, no carpet cleaner, no shrimp , no dead rat`s , no puppy`s , just live rock and live sand!

And Patience, don't forget patience.

[loosecannon]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15249873#post15249873 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by terrinstevereef
And Patience, don't forget patience. A man brother , a man .;)

[tmz]

The nitrogen cycle ends at free nitrogen gas. Nitrification and denitrifcation work together.
High nitrates can be very harmful very quickly to invertebrates, Yes , ammonia NH3 is a primary concern but a balanced system accounts for the whole process from the start. Cycling is generally considered complete in terms of fish safety, when there is no ammonia for a period of weeks. This doesn't mean that denitrification should not be planned for in the initial design. It can take months for colonies of denitrifying bacteria to establish. Nor does it mean the nitorgen cycle ends at nitrite or nitrate. Fixed inorganic nitrogen whether it is NH3(ammonia), NO2 (nitrite) pr NO3( nitrate) is still problematic for a number of reasons..

How would you "ease" into denitrication?

Where are alll these cheap /free readily available diverse viable heterotrohic bacteria coming from?

Where would the hypoxic(oxygen poor) areas they need form with appropriate proximity to the nitrate produced?

You just can't dismiss denitrification for a reef tank with a thought of I'll do it later. somehow?

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15250094#post15250094 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
The nitrogen cycle ends at free nitrogen gas. Nitrification and denitrifcation work together.
High nitrates can be very harmful very quickly to invertebrates, Yes , ammonia NH3 is a primary concern but a balanced system accounts for the whole process from the start. Cycling is generally considered complete in terms of fish safety, when there is no ammonia for a period of weeks. This doesn't mean that denitrification should not be planned for in the initial design. It can take months for colonies of denitrifying bacteria to establish. Nor does it mean the nitorgen cycle ends at nitrite or nitrate. Fixed inorganic nitrogen whether it is NH3(ammonia), NO2 (nitrite) pr NO3( nitrate) is still problematic for a number of reasons..

How would you "ease" into denitrication?

Where are alll these cheap /free readily available diverse viable heterotrohic bacteria coming from?

Where would the hypoxic(oxygen poor) areas they need form with appropriate proximity to the nitrate produced?

You just can't dismiss denitrification for a reef tank with a thought of I'll do it later. somehow?

How would nitrate be high from day 1 to day 30? Ammonia can be very high very fast.

You can change water infrequently and can reduce nitrate before and as the anerobic part of the nitrogen cycle progresses. Nitrate is very much less toxic than ammonia for most creatures of interest. Without any means to remove/process ammonia, you have to change water very much more often to get ammonia to acceptable levels.

Yes, priority should be given to nitrification. Definitely!. Ammonia is like fire fighting, nitrate is tinkering and gradual improvement, both for practical and scientific reasons.

How do you ease into denitrification? This is very complex subject. I think most people are still constantly learning and improving. To put it as succintly as possible: setup the system with many sites of various lower levels of oxygenation and flow rates (local or bulk considerations ), provide growth sites with various porosities, do not allow food particles to accumlate in low oxygenation areas to prevent undesirable anerobic activities, esp that involve s bearing protein, provide carbon sources for food to the denitrification bacteria. For denitrification, the nitrate is the oxidizing agent, as oxygen is to fish and nitrification bacteria, so generally some carbon source as food is desirable or necessary for denitrification.

LR seems to have, in the long term. better combination. It is generally in the long term an approved medium over the past. However, LR is not the best medium for the first two months of a fish dominant tank. For a reef tank, this is less critical. LR has the disadvantage of being bulky and unwieldy. You want to have flexible nitrification in the QT; LR is not a good medium that give you the flexiblity.

I am saying that nitrification is very very easy to develop, and very desirable and critical for a fish dominant tank. No need for collected LR for that.

[tmz]

For a fish only tank. Live rock is not necessary but would be desireable for certain species.

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15251148#post15251148 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
For a fish only tank. Live rock is not necessary but would be desireable for certain species.

LR is good for a fish dominant tank in the long run in the DT, but not exclusively especially for the first two months.

Just read the Ick SOS posts from beginners. It would be very good to eradicate ick by separating invertebrates from fish for 8-12 weeks. What are you going to support the fish with for the long duration?

If you have all LR in the DT it is harder. If the LR has a lot of growth on it it is harder still.

If you have some crushed oyster shells or crushed coral, you can split it or use it in the QT more readily.

If one is thoughtful, one can run a HOT with a sack of crushed oyster shell while one cycle the DT, this will be the biological filter for the QT.

In the old days you can scoop some mature crushed coral from the DT, wrap it in nylon and place it into an HOT and you have an instant biological filter for the QT. Such is flexible nitrification.