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View Full Version : Economical RO sytem equal to Spectraflow UHE RODI


therealfatman
06/22/2009, 03:05 AM
Jim,
Can you in a package deal combine a 75 gallon 98% rejection rate DOW FilmtechTFM membrane, a low micron prefilter (not a 0.2 Miron but a more reasonable 1 micron), a chloramine or standard carbon block prefilter of a reasonable micron size, a pressure booster pump, a liguid filled pressure gauge, a large canister 80% removal DI cartridge with 3 times the resin volume as a 10 inch standard DI resin cartridge and a standard HI siicate or Nuclear Grade DI cartridge filter along with 2 two point conductivity meters and a RO membrane flush system (manual activated please) and a couple float switches (just for giggles as I would not think of putting a high flow system on a storage systen m that would cause short cycling of the RODI system) for equal to or less than the $900 charged by Spectrapure for their RODI system with very nearly these same specs?

I would surely expect you can but I thought I would ask you.

Thank you!
fatman

Thefilterguys
06/24/2009, 12:20 AM
Yes we can build that type of system and for far less money and equal or better quality. We build our own systems in our shop so this is an easy build.

Jim

Lutefisk
07/12/2009, 08:13 PM
The Spectrapure Maxcap UHE is supposed to have some type of microprocessor control which I guess accounts for the $1,000+ cost.

Our NEW UHE MaxCap™ (Ultra-High Efficiency 5-Stage) system has been designed to conserve one of our most precious resources.... water. We have miniaturized the technology used in our commercial PSP systems to achieve an incredible 1/1 (or better) ratio in a Micro-Processor controlled system no bigger than a standard RO/DI system.

Do you have any idea what they are doing with that controller?

Thefilterguys
07/12/2009, 08:24 PM
Since you can achive 1.25 to 1 with a dual membrane in series and a Aquatec 8800 booster pump seems like a high price to pay in my eyes.

Jim

Lutefisk
07/14/2009, 08:55 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15347697#post15347697 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Thefilterguys
Since you can achive 1.25 to 1 with a dual membrane in series and a Aquatec 8800 booster pump seems like a high price to pay in my eyes.

Jim

I'll say.

How do you size the flow restrictor (downstream of the second membrane) for that set up? Same as for a single membrane?

I'm now on the way to your website to price your Aquatec :)

Lutefisk
07/14/2009, 09:04 AM
OK, found the page http://www.thefilterguys.biz/booster_pumps.htm

On the Auto Cutoff switch (which I assume shuts off the booster pump when it is not needed) your listing says that it is good for 40 PSI

40 PSI 1/4 X 1/4 QUICK FITTINGS FOR 8800 AND 6800 BOOSTER PUMP

I've got 65 PSI going into my membrane. Something seems weird that the switch would have "40 PSI 1/4 X 1/4 QUICK FITTINGS."

Is it possible that the 40 PSI is the pressure at which it switches on and off rather than the pressure ratings of the fittings? If so where does it mount? On the output of the DI?

I've plumbed 3/8" into my filters to maximize the pressure to my unit. What is the actual size of the threaded input and output on the booster pump? I know that it has 1/4" quick fittings but are they threaded into 1/4" FPT or something bigger?

Since you sell the power supply for the pump separately and I've got some nice DC power supplies in the 12-24 volt range, how much current does the pump draw?

Thank you for your attention to my nagging questions!

Paul

gman19
07/14/2009, 11:51 AM
Good info!

Following this thread as I consider a booster pump myself!

Lutefisk
07/14/2009, 12:20 PM
I've been wanting to do this for some time. For two reasons.

1) A lot less waste water
2) You get twice the mileage out of your pre-filters and carbon (all that waste water went through your filter system)

I'm running Filter Guys' media and filter cartridges which helps with the $'s but I'm pretty much ready to make the next jump.

Paul

Thefilterguys
07/14/2009, 12:27 PM
On the flow restrictor it is a single flow restrictor sized for a single 75 GPD membrane and is inline after the second membrane.

The shut off switch goes after the membrane and is in a low pressure area. Once the product water stops the system pressurizes and at 40 psi it turns off the pump before the static pressure reaches your max.

The Aquatec pumps we sell can be used by 1/4" or 3/8" tubing as we use reducer fittings for 1/4 x 3/8.

Here are the pump power specs and Aquatec pumps outperform all other pumps by far. Lower priced pumps don't hold up and have lots of issues.

POWER: Safe operation with low energy (24 watts), low voltage (12-24V) motors. Can be used
with compatible transformers (100VAC, 120VAC, 230VAC), to be ordered separately.
ENVELOPE DIMENSIONS: Approximately 3”x 4”x 7”, 6 lbs.
MOUNTING: Our patented “flex-mount” baseplate significantly dampens vibration and reduces noise.
Other steel mounting baseplates and “universal” baseplates are available at no
additional cost. Pump performance may be affected by location and positioning.
CONTROL OPTIONS: Internal Bypass (20-200 psi)
FITTINGS: Available options include built-in 3/8”, 1/4”, or 5/16” John Guest half cartridges

CLASS 2 TRANSFORMER
INPUT 115V 60Hz 53W
OUTPUT AC 24V 2A

Lutefisk
07/14/2009, 01:33 PM
OK, just put in my order for the whole shooting match.

gman19
07/14/2009, 07:57 PM
I'm going to draw up a schematic and get it to Jim for review. I may have to power the booster pump from the relay that opens the solenoid that starts my system working. (I do not have the pressure actuated switch that comes with drinking water systems as I removed it since I switch my system with the solenoid/float switch configuration.) I may, on Jim's input, take the leap too.

Thefilterguys
07/14/2009, 10:28 PM
Thanks for the order Paul shipping notice to follow by e-mail tonight.

Jim

Lutefisk
07/17/2009, 02:48 PM
Thanks for the quick ship. I've received and installed everything - jury rigged at this point :)

Everything appears to work great. I called The Filter Guys with a question regarding the auto-membrane-flush valve and Jim picked up the phone right away and quickly answered my question.

I'm looking forward to running some numbers on my product to waste ration. I'm expecting that my waste water per gallon of RO/DI will drop in half and, at the same time, I will get twice the life out of my filters and carbon while my DI will be roughly the same (a little lower).

Paul

gman19
07/17/2009, 04:11 PM
I am going to do some experimenting to see where my pressure drop is. I am going to bypass my solenoid & prefilter and see what happens before I get into booster pumps. With 76psi static, I should have more than 50psi with the RO running...this is a mystery!

Jim, I will probably do this this weekend and post my results here or possibly email you.

Stay tuned!

gman19
07/17/2009, 04:14 PM
Oh, by the way, on a system like mine (ocean reef +2 with an extra 75gpd membrane) what number should be on the flow restrictor? mine is labeled "550". Just wondering if the flow restrictor is letting too much flow through resulting in my pressure drop...or is this even a remote possibility?
Does 2 75gpd membranes need one 75gpd restrictor or a 150gpd restrictor?
Lots o questions, but good info!!

Lutefisk
07/17/2009, 08:37 PM
Does 2 75gpd membranes need one 75gpd restrictor or a 150gpd restrictor?

Two 75 gpd in series (Brine of the first one to the input of the second membrane) requires one 75 gpd membrane.

Provided minimum pressure drop across the input sides of the two membranes (basically just line loss due to the tubing and fittings) the two membranes in series basically functions as one double-long membrane. The one flow restrictor would set the back pressure for both membranes. It will be interesting to log some flows and pressures to compare the waste-to-product ratios of each membrane in this configuration and to consider tweeking the flow restrictor.


Paul

gman19
07/18/2009, 07:40 AM
Here's what I'm wondering...
On THG's website, the photo of a 75gpd flow restrictor has the number 600 on it. Mine has the number 550 on it. I am wondering if I may have the wrong flow restrictor allowing too much flow thru the system, accounting for my almost 30psi drop on the gauge before the membrane. I will try and draw up a good schematic of my system and post it...I sent Jim a rather crude one earlier this week. The loss of line pressure when the system is running is a real mystery to me!

Thefilterguys
07/18/2009, 10:29 AM
We use both 550 and 600 flow restrictors and both are correct for a dual 75 GPD membrane system. The difference between the two restrictors is so slight if doesn't seem to make a difference.

Paul you have it correct basically what you are doing is creating a 20" membrane which allows the system to wring maximum capacity from the water.

Gman easy test is just move the system pressure gauge after the solenoid as I suspect it only has 1/8" ports and is causing the restriction and pressure drop.
Jim

gman19
07/18/2009, 12:32 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15373515#post15373515 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Thefilterguys
We use both 550 and 600 flow restrictors and both are correct for a dual 75 GPD membrane system. The difference between the two restrictors is so slight if doesn't seem to make a difference.

Paul you have it correct basically what you are doing is creating a 20" membrane which allows the system to wring maximum capacity from the water.

Gman easy test is just move the system pressure gauge after the solenoid as I suspect it only has 1/8" ports and is causing the restriction and pressure drop.
Jim

Jim,
The house pressure gauge (that indicates 78psi then 50psi once the system is started) is before the solenoid, not after it. So my house pressure drops to 50psi once the system is started. Since the normal pressure drop across the prefilters is 4psi, I don't think the solenoid is dropping any psi since it is also between the gauges. I gotta get some Photos and post them with a schematic...this really has me puzzled.

gman19
07/18/2009, 12:35 PM
Jim,
Look in my gallery and there is a photo of the control box and prefilter that shows my pressure gauge/filter and solenoid, from the solenoid the flow goes right to the RO unit, about 8 feet away.

Lutefisk
07/18/2009, 05:09 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15374043#post15374043 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gman19
Jim,
The house pressure gauge (that indicates 78psi then 50psi once the system is started) is before the solenoid, not after it. So my house pressure drops to 50psi once the system is started. Since the normal pressure drop across the prefilters is 4psi, I don't think the solenoid is dropping any psi since it is also between the gauges. I gotta get some Photos and post them with a schematic...this really has me puzzled.

That is why I plumbed 3/8" tubing to my first stage.

The 78psi without any flow is the water pressure that is being supplied to your house.

If the pressure drops that much once the filter begins to flow that is a function of the resistance of the water flowing through the tubing and fittings required to get the water to the pressure pressure gauge on the input to your RO/DI system.

BTW - Nice looking setup!


Paul

gman19
07/20/2009, 08:34 AM
Thanks Paul,
I wasn't able to pull off my experiment over the weekend of bypassing my solenoid/prefilter altogether, but still aim to try it this week sometime. I am also looking into getting me a new solenoid with 3/8" inlet and 5/16" orifice and may replumb mine using 3/8" tubing to the RO. This would probably only take about half hour to do...actually it will take longer to round the parts up than to do the job!

Thefilterguys
07/20/2009, 09:55 PM
It sounds like you have the same problem I have which is a malfunctioning pressure regulator. With the regulator my pressure is steady without it it runs 120 static and 75 at flow. My plumber was here Friday and ordered a new valve. Our new house plumbing has been a problem since we moved in and just figured out it was the regulator.

I now understand your pressure is 78 static at rest and 50 at flow both before the solenoid.

Jim

gman19
07/21/2009, 05:44 AM
Wow...never considered that! Let us know your results when you get the new regulator installed.

On an updated note...I did take the time yesterday to bypass my solenoid/prefilter setup and ran a 1.4" tubing straight from the cold water supply line to the RO. The gauge at the RO still reads ~45psi so I think this further confirms what we know, that I'm not dropping anything across the solenoid.

I'll hold off on the 3/8" tubing endeavor until I hear back from you on the pressure regulator issue.

Thanks for the updated info! Good stuff!

Gman19

gman19
08/24/2009, 08:53 AM
Jim,
Did you get your faulty pressure regulator replaced yet, if so, did it resolve your pressure drop issue we were discussing in this thread? I still have not made a move on replacing mine yet.

Thefilterguys
08/24/2009, 09:20 AM
Yes it was replaced and it was a bad regulator now my pressure runs 75 to 85 which I consider perfect and right where a booster pump would put it.

Jim

gman19
08/24/2009, 12:40 PM
I reckon I need to get mine looked at too. It's almost 14 years old and would not surprise me if it is indeed bad as well.

Thanks and I'll try and keep you updated!

Thefilterguys
08/24/2009, 02:49 PM
The plumber said it is not uncommon for them to go bad however mine was new and bad from the get go.
Jim