Why I buy all of my fish online

[snorvich]

Ok, lets start what may be a lively discussion. I buy ALL of my fish online because:

1. LFS do not offer a 14 day guarantee
2. LFS do not appropriately quarantine and treat fish
3. LFS rarely, if ever, have the fish I am looking for; with an LFS, you select from what they stock which is no where near as wide a variety as online
4. LFS do not stock rare or expert level fish (because their risk is too high) and since there is no guarantee, all risk is assumed by me, the customer
5. Since my fish rarely die once established, and I only have so many places for fish in my tanks, I rarely buy any fish at all; so when I do, I lean towards the unusual

I also only buy online from companies which:

1. Have an unconditional 14 day guarantee on all fish
2. Have a WYSIWYG section

How about everyone else?

[RokleM]

Actually, most of your points should be listed as "MY LFS" or "snorvich's' LFS".

I have PhishyBusiness as my LFS, so most of the items you have above don't apply to me. :D I typically buy at the LFS and/or see if they can get something specific for me, prior to going online (my last resort).

[ccampbell57]

Steve...we are waiting on the Gem pictures...impatiently!!!!

[kirkaz]

Agreed with everything Snorvich....I will continue to buy online because of these things, also I feel I get as good or better service from Mark and his peoples at Blue Zoo as even the good LFS's I have used. It does suck that I live in the suburbs of one of the largest cities in the U.S., and the nearest LFS is 45 minutes away.

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15249270#post15249270 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ccampbell57
Steve...we are waiting on the Gem pictures...impatiently!!!!

Coming in July.

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15249163#post15249163 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RokleM
Actually, most of your points should be listed as "MY LFS" or "snorvich's' LFS".

I have PhishyBusiness as my LFS, so most of the items you have above don't apply to me. :D I typically buy at the LFS and/or see if they can get something specific for me, prior to going online (my last resort).

Serdar does a good job, and I do buy from him frequently, but obviously not as a LOCAL fish store. But even he does not stock what I want, but he will order it or find it for me. Still, within driving distance are a large number of LFS which ARE local to me. The only one who stocks fish I would buy is Old Town Aquarium

[jmaccvols]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15249121#post15249121 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
Ok, lets start what may be a lively discussion. I buy ALL of my fish online because:

1. LFS do not offer a 14 day guarantee
2. LFS do not appropriately quarantine and treat fish
3. LFS rarely, if ever, have the fish I am looking for; with an LFS, you select from what they stock which is no where near as wide a variety as online
4. LFS do not stock rare or expert level fish (because their risk is too high) and since there is no guarantee, all risk is assumed by me, the customer
5. Since my fish rarely die once established, and I only have so many places for fish in my tanks, I rarely buy any fish at all; so when I do, I lean towards the unusual



6. I do not have a LFS available to me.

[revaltion131]

Another you could add is "My LFS cannot reliably get in the exact species I want." Oh, the store can get a "filament wrasse" alright, but is it a Cirrhilabrus or Paracheilinus? What species am I getting? Am I paying male prices for a female? Etc.

Edit: I usually make the trip over to Phishy at least once a month as well. Last time I was in, I was a little disappointed in the fish stock. But, it seemed to be concentrated in fish they said they got in one shipment, especially a good number of lemonpeel angels, and I got the sense that it was a bad shipment in general.

[Recty]

7. Up in Alaska, most of the time LFS prices are 2-3x higher than what I can buy them for online. Buying one fish at a time doesnt save me any money, but buying 2 or 3 at a time saves a lot.

[Kahuna Tuna]

Great thread Steve. I buy my fish from both the LFS and online and I am generally pretty happy with both choices. I pretty much buy online from Drs. F & S and I think their service is excellent and their livestock is very high quality for the most part.

Playing devils advocate I would say there are a few drawbacks to buying online. I like to see what I am buying, not just looking at a picture of a fish but rather see it interact, watch its behavior, and closely inspect it for any problems. I look to see if it is scratching, looks stressed, or has any other problems. Even in a WYSIWYG section you are looking at a photo of one side of the fish and you defianately cant tell if the fish is behaving normally. I usually spend at least a good twenty minutes observing a fish I am thinking about buying.

The 14 day guarantee is really nice but it is still a hassle when things go wrong. I bought a clean up crew package last year and nearly all of the snails were DOA, it was all covered under the guarantee but that was just the nastiest thing ever sorting out the living from the dead. I had to move everything outside because of the smell. I have also received fish that were obviously doomed when they were bagged, I bought one midas blenny with a huge bite taken out of him, that fish never should have been sold.

I have also purchased fish online that were not the same species as was stated and this can be a major problem although it wasn't in my case. All in all I do use online vendors but I always have this mental image of the UPS man throwning my fish around the inside of his truck. :eek:

[Philwd]

I guess I have been lucky in that I had 2 good quality LFS one of which QT'd for 2 weeks with meds. I have gotten laboutei, rhomboids and lineatus locally as well as on line. The local LFS actually had better pricing. Got my original rhomboid pair with a 4 1/2 " stunning male qt'd for 2 weeks for $399. 5" male lineatus for $129.

I also had tried transship when I couldn't get the fish I wanted locally. Overall worse results but still got a couple nice fish. Female wrasses did best.

For some reason I have had dismal luck with LA. Only fish that lived was a gramma. Lost 2 male flames, male laboutie and male carpenter's. All past 14 day mark. I always picked up at the Fedex office right when they open at 9AM. I agree it is hit or miss locally if the LFS can't or won't special order. To me that's the only reason to go on-line.

[MatthewLaw]

i have purchased about half of my fish online and the other half at That Pet Place (i live about an hour away). Some of the 'rarer' fish that I purchased online were also available at TPP, BUT not at the same time. ex. I wanted an all-black dogface puffer ($150) and TPP had it, but my tank was not cycled. When the tank was cycled, TPP did not have it but I was able to acquire it from vivid aquariums. i was worried about shipping a fish that cost this much and what happened if the fish puffed with AIR while in transit to me?

i too like looking at my fish in person and seeing if he is scratching, swimming funny, etc, before purchase. but that is a risk i take by purchasing fish online and having them shipped across the country! the 14 day guarantee is a huge incentive for me to purchase online and take on the risk of a fish being transported overnight under someone else's care. i too fear that the box will be thrown around and possibly crushed by a negligent handler at the airports. It is also an inconvenience in QUICKLY having to clear my schedule so I can spend the whole day at home, waiting for the fish to arrive via Fedex (usually NOT by 1030), acclimating, etc.

At the same time, TPP offers a 5 day guarantee on most all livestock (must bring in receipt, fish, water sample). excluded fish are various harder to keep fish like hippo tang, fu manchu lion...etc. once i get the fish at TPP i am in full control of getting the fish home and have peace of mind that it has been under my watchful eye from the time it was taken out of tank to the time it was put into my QT.

[Amoore311]

I would love to discuss, but you basically hit every point in the OP lol.

The biggest thing with me is the Guarantee though for sure. It sounds like you are actually describing Live Aquaria/Diver's Den perfectly in your OP. That is the #1 go to place for me to get fish. If they don't have it, I will now go over to BlueZoo since Kris Wray hopped on bored.

Before that happened, you couldn't pry me away from Fosters and Smith. I had a Powder Blue Tang DOA on my order once, they credited me $90 without even seeing a picture of the fish.

[ryshark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15249620#post15249620 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
Coming in July.


Why July to see the Gem? Are you going to be totm and your holding out on us until then?

[Rizup]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15249121#post15249121 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
Ok, lets start what may be a lively discussion. I buy ALL of my fish online because:

1. LFS do not offer a 14 day guarantee
2. LFS do not appropriately quarantine and treat fish
3. LFS rarely, if ever, have the fish I am looking for; with an LFS, you select from what they stock which is no where near as wide a variety as online
4. LFS do not stock rare or expert level fish (because their risk is too high) and since there is no guarantee, all risk is assumed by me, the customer
5. Since my fish rarely die once established, and I only have so many places for fish in my tanks, I rarely buy any fish at all; so when I do, I lean towards the unusual

I also only buy online from companies which:

1. Have an unconditional 14 day guarantee on all fish
2. Have a WYSIWYG section

How about everyone else?

Here's my experience with the LFS I choose to use:

1. My LFS of choice has a 14 day guarantee (not too far from you either).
2. Not sure what you deem appropriate, but at least I am able to see how they are treated rather than an online company that I cannot visit.
3. This can be true, but they can order pretty much anything I ask for.
4. Again, they can generally get whatever I would like and they have the 14 day guarantee.
5. See #4


I am not saying I won't or haven't bought online, but here are the reasons I like to use this particular LFS:

1. I feel the trip to my house is less stressful to the fish. They have already gone through quite a bit to get to the LFS (or online seller).

2. I don't have to pay extravagant overnight shipping charges!

3. I am giving my money to support a local business rather than a business that probably isn't even in the same state as I am.

4. I get to see the fish before I buy them and can select the particular specimen I want.

5. I can make sure that they are healthy and eating before buying.

6. If I were the type of person that didn't research my purchases before hand, I could get the advice of the experienced employees (yes they are honest and know their stuff).


I am sure I am leaving some items off, but these are the main things that come to mind. Purchase from whoever you want, but these six items and more are why I will continue to use my LFS when possible.


Mike

[ryshark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15250854#post15250854 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rizup
Here's my experience with the LFS I choose to use:

1. My LFS of choice has a 14 day guarantee (not too far from you either).
2. Not sure what you deem appropriate, but at least I am able to see how they are treated rather than an online company that I cannot visit.
3. This can be true, but they can order pretty much anything I ask for.
4. Again, they can generally get whatever I would like and they have the 14 day guarantee.
5. See #4


I am not saying I won't or haven't bought online, but here are the reasons I like to use this particular LFS:

1. I feel the trip to my house is less stressful to the fish. They have already gone through quite a bit to get to the LFS (or online seller).

2. I don't have to pay extravagant overnight shipping charges!

3. I am giving my money to support a local business rather than a business that probably isn't even in the same state as I am.

4. I get to see the fish before I buy them and can select the particular specimen I want.

5. I can make sure that they are healthy and eating before buying.

6. If I were the type of person that didn't research my purchases before hand, I could get the advice of the experienced employees (yes they are honest and know their stuff).


I am sure I am leaving some items off, but these are the main things that come to mind. Purchase from whoever you want, but these six items and more are why I will continue to use my LFS when possible.


Mike

I don't think the lfs you described is a common thing. If I had an lfs like that I probably wouldn't buy online either. But the lfs here give no guarantee. In fact I bought 2 of the same fish once and one was dead within 18-hours and the lfs didn't want to do anything about it. You are very fortunate to have that lfs you mentioned.

[Rizup]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15250923#post15250923 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ryshark
I don't think the lfs you described is a common thing. If I had an lfs like that I probably wouldn't buy online either. But the lfs here give no guarantee. In fact I bought 2 of the same fish once and one was dead within 18-hours and the lfs didn't want to do anything about it. You are very fortunate to have that lfs you mentioned.

Yes, I agree with you. I have explored almost all if not all of the fish stores in the Chicagoland area, and I keep coming back to this particular store because of the reasons I listed, and also their SPS selection is the best around and their prices are very reasonable for their livestock (especially when compared to other fish stores). Thankfully, they are one of the closest to me - about 20 minutes away.


Mike

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15250840#post15250840 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ryshark
Why July to see the Gem? Are you going to be totm and your holding out on us until then?

No, not TOTM (and no aspirations for such); I am just really busy at the moment, but that should abate around the middle of July. Plus I am a terrible aquarium photographer.

[Amoore311]

Here's my experience with the LFS I choose to use:
1. My LFS of choice has a 14 day guarantee (not too far from you either).
2. Not sure what you deem appropriate, but at least I am able to see how they are treated rather than an online company that I cannot visit.
3. This can be true, but they can order pretty much anything I ask for. 4. Again, they can generally get whatever I would like and they have the 14 day guarantee. 5. See #4


Yeah if everyone had just 1 LFS like this, online retailers would have no market. It's awesome that you have that luxury near you though.

[ento-reefer]

I prefer to buy online for all the reasons that Steve stated. If I am going to pay $100 or more for a fish I want the guarantee. I do support my LFS for supplies and very occasionally I have purchased a fish that was hardy, inexpensive, and looked great.

[Sheol]

My first LFS in Hot Springs did have the 2 week Guarantee & replaced all deceased fish FREE.
But the point of having what I want never available is all too true.
The stores in Dallas/Ft worth area do have good selection..

Matthew

[Rizup]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15251522#post15251522 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Amoore311
Yeah if everyone had just 1 LFS like this, online retailers would have no market. It's awesome that you have that luxury near you though.

Ya, I agree there will still be a market for online retailers because most LFS will not stock rare livestock such as gem tangs, etc. Why would they? How many people do you know that own or plan to own a gem tang? It just is not economical for them to carry such items because they wouldn't sell. Now a site like Live Aquaria? Sure. Look at the size of their market.

I have ordered from LiveAquaria in the past and I had an excellent experience. I will definitely order from them again because of that. It is just hard for me to make a purchase from them when it will cost me $35 just to ship the items. Although I will say, they package their livestock EXTREMELY well! If I were spending the money on a higher priced fish that my LFS doesn't carry or can't order, their 30-day guarantee would be well worth it.

Mike

[snorvich]

Well, I have at least five species of fish that no LFS is going to carry for me or even attempt to special order, so if I confined my purchases to a LFS, I would not have those fish. Since I have only a finite number of fish slots, I prefer to fill them with the fish I want. Of course, go back to the original post, and those factors are important to me. But I think this dialog is important and both points of view have value to different people.

[Rizup]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15251804#post15251804 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
Well, I have at least five species of fish that no LFS is going to carry for me or even attempt to special order, so if I confined my purchases to a LFS, I would not have those fish. Since I have only a finite number of fish slots, I prefer to fill them with the fish I want. Of course, go back to the original post, and those factors are important to me. But I think this dialog is important and both points of view have value to different people.

Like I said, I do not and would not recommend that anyone confine their purchases to an LFS. I prefer to fill my aquariums with fish that my wife and I want as well, and lucky for us most of those fish can be found or ordered at our LFS. For those that cannot, I feel that even though Divers Den is overpriced, it has a slight advantage and I chose to use it.

The points of view are important and what I am trying to point out is the opposite of what you proposed in both instances. In your OP you stated that you purchase ALL your fish from online. Then in the post that I quoted here you suggest "if I confined my purchases to a LFS." What I am suggesting, or rather what I do, is not confined to a single place of purchase. I agree that there are some things you will not find at the LFS and for those times I use Divers Den. When I am looking for something that I know my LFS has or can order, I go there to support them. If they didn't have their policies, knowledgeable staff, competitive prices, etc. I would go elsewhere or online.



Mike

[snorvich]

My quote that "if I confined my purchases to a LFS" has only to do with species availability and not to any of the other points in my original posting. The remaining points still pertain to why I only order online.

[Rizup]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15252517#post15252517 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
My quote that "if I confined my purchases to a LFS" has only to do with species availability and not to any of the other points in my original posting. The remaining points still pertain to why I only order online.

Correct. I understand, I was just trying to point out to others that I personally do not think it is a good idea to confine yourself to purchasing from one place, whether it be online or local. That is all.

Mike

[mrwilson]

Like RokleM, Phishy Business is my LFS. I consider it to be a high-quality store, and so most of my purchases are from there. I also appreciate having a good store that's local to me, so sometimes I buy things from Phishy with an explicit "I'm supporting a good LFS" ethos in mind. On occasion, however, I have bought and will continue to buy some fish online (usually DD), such as when there's one particular fish I'm looking for, and its WYSIWYG.

That said, however, my fish purchases to date have all been <$100 apiece. If ever I were to spend real money on a fish, the 14-day guarantee of an online store would be nice.

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15252701#post15252701 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rizup
Correct. I understand, I was just trying to point out to others that I personally do not think it is a good idea to confine yourself to purchasing from one place, whether it be online or local. That is all.

Mike

And I respectfully disagree. The handling process is the most important issue for me (assuming a place has the selection I require). That is why I confine my fish purchases to one place ONLY.

[melanotaenia]

there are others besides LA that take care of their fish and follow proper quarantine and medication techniques before selling.....

This thread is turning into a cheerleading post for them, or so it seems.

[Rizup]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15254679#post15254679 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melanotaenia
there are others besides LA that take care of their fish and follow proper quarantine and medication techniques before selling.....

This thread is turning into a cheerleading post for them, or so it seems.

I am sure there are. I only have experience with them, so that is who I referenced. I think there were several other posters that mentioned other companies as well, if I am not mistaken.

You sound like you have experience with another company - care to share your experiences? I am sure it would be a benefit to this thread.


Mike

[MatthewLaw]

putting aside the importance of acquiring the exact species you desire, i think WE ALL appreciate that handling is one of, if not the most important factor in acquiring the fish.

by ordering online, you dont see the fish get packed up (super important for puffers!!!) or how the box is handled between the shipping location and your residence. if nothing else (and assuming the box is handled with the utmost care at all times), imagine how traumatic is must be to experience the intense vibrations from a Boeing 757 as that box is transported to you overnight?

[MatthewLaw]

i have read that live aquaria, DD, etc are great but I have purhcased from vivid aquariums. great experiences with all fish and i actually received my first frozen food eating dwarf lion from them. i had purchased a few others from LFS and despite seeing them eat in-store, they never did in my tanks. this dwarf lion ate frozen from the start and has been working out great since day 1! never an issue with my dogface puffer so I can only assume he was properly 'captured' when shipped to me.

[snorvich]

While I do advocate LA DD, I don't do so to exclude others. If Serdar (Phishy) were local to me, I would certainly form a relationship with him. I have been very pleased with corals acquired from there. I have also ordered corals from Vivid and have been pleased. I have tried others for fish over the years, including ones advocated by RC posters, and have had less than satisfactory results. Guarantees that don't apply to the fish I am interested in simply don't do a lot for me.

There are other subtle reasons I like DD. When I test shipping water for SG, shipping at 1.025 means my acclimation is much easier than when fish are shipped at 1.019. Do you test your shipping water? And I cannot really put aside the selection of fish issue; all of us have a relatively small number of fish slots in our aquaria (unless of course fish die frequently) so selection is right up there next to the top. I want what I want and don't particularly want to select from what my LFS thinks I SHOULD want. There is a reason that LFS have less selection than some online vendors: their wholesaler is going to give them preference based on the LFS dollars spent with them. The best selection goes to the customer that buys a LOT and the premium fish and corals go to the customer who will pay a premium as LA DD does.

[Rizup]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15254866#post15254866 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
While I do advocate LA DD, I don't do so to exclude others. If Serdar (Phishy) were local to me, I would certainly form a relationship with him. I have been very pleased with corals acquired from there. I have also ordered corals from Vivid and have been pleased. I have tried others for fish over the years, including ones advocated by RC posters, and have had less than satisfactory results. Guarantees that don't apply to the fish I am interested in simply don't do a lot for me.

There are other subtle reasons I like DD. When I test shipping water for SG, shipping at 1.025 means my acclimation is much easier than when fish are shipped at 1.019. Do you test your shipping water? And I cannot really put aside the selection of fish issue; all of us have a relatively small number of fish slots in our aquaria (unless of course fish die frequently) so selection is right up there next to the top. I want what I want and don't particularly want to select from what my LFS thinks I SHOULD want. There is a reason that LFS have less selection than some online vendors: their wholesaler is going to give them preference based on the LFS dollars spent with them. The best selection goes to the customer that buys a LOT and the premium fish and corals go to the customer who will pay a premium as LA DD does.

Very good points.

[melanotaenia]

yawn.............

Blue Zoo Aquatics has excellent husbandry skills, as does phisy....

But then again, I worked at a LFS that practiced very strict quarantine practices with marine fish, often times keeping fish for six weeks or more before we sold them, especially Red Sea and Caribbean specimens that often came in with flukes and other nastiness. The owner was a Marine Biologist and we were always careful with our husbandry of the fish before being sold.

This was ten years ago.

And remember that the LFS is a lot of times the reason people get into the marine hobby; we offered seminars on keeping reefs and marine aquariums on weekends that gave people the knowledge to not feel overwhelmed with attempting to keep these wild caught animals successfully in aquariums. Live Aquaria is just a website. Sure you can go there if you live in the vicinity, but the local fish store deserves more credit here, IMO.

[MatthewLaw]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15255167#post15255167 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melanotaenia


And remember that the LFS is a lot of times the reason people get into the marine hobby; we offered seminars on keeping reefs and marine aquariums on weekends that gave people the knowledge to not feel overwhelmed with attempting to keep these wild caught animals successfully in aquariums. Live Aquaria is just a website. Sure you can go there if you live in the vicinity, but the local fish store deserves more credit here, IMO.

+1

[Rizup]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15255167#post15255167 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melanotaenia
yawn.............

Blue Zoo Aquatics has excellent husbandry skills, as does phisy....

But then again, I worked at a LFS that practiced very strict quarantine practices with marine fish, often times keeping fish for six weeks or more before we sold them, especially Red Sea and Caribbean specimens that often came in with flukes and other nastiness. The owner was a Marine Biologist and we were always careful with our husbandry of the fish before being sold.

This was ten years ago.

And remember that the LFS is a lot of times the reason people get into the marine hobby; we offered seminars on keeping reefs and marine aquariums on weekends that gave people the knowledge to not feel overwhelmed with attempting to keep these wild caught animals successfully in aquariums. Live Aquaria is just a website. Sure you can go there if you live in the vicinity, but the local fish store deserves more credit here, IMO.

That would have been a great store to work for and to shop at. :)

[snorvich]

yawn . . . to borrow the implicit pejorative of the poster above. Neither mentioned have 14 day guarantees on all fish. I am not bashing LFS although it may seem to be so. LFS who quarantine do not quarantine individual fish because they share water in a fish system; this defeats the purpose of quarantine.

It is absolutely true that LFS are the ones who start all of us in the hobby. Their problem is their business model which simply cannot work given the nature of the hobby: everyone wants to buy cheap fish, LFS spring up thinking they can capture market share by selling cheap fish compared to XYZ. They run their business through their credit cards. Their margin falls as selling price falls which requires selling higher volume to cover their overhead. Their process is designed to move fish quickly because it MUST. So, sure LFS are great for beginning hobbyists but those of us who are longer term find out that it is CHEAPER to buy EXPENSIVE fish that have gone through the best acquisition process from capture through sale.

Remember this thread is intended to be thought provoking . . . not argumentative

[MatthewLaw]

but can you guarantee that ever single (expensive) fish you received through an online retailer was not in a similar QT situation as the one described above?

imagine how much more we would have to pay if ever QT was really an individual tank with its own heater, power heads, protein skimmer!!

[melanotaenia]

also NY aquatic has great specimens as well, I have had great success with them.

I agree that for rare fish, unless you know a diver, LA is where it is at; however, for those 99% of hobbyists who don't pay thousands of dollars for fish, a reputable LFS store is the best way to get the information you need, talk with a real person, observe the animals, and develop a relationship with local people who share your love of fish.

And just to point out, 10 years ago we were getting large Sohals and Asfurs from the Red Sea that were almost impossible to get, and I still know specimens that are alive and thriving to this day in customer aquaria.

I just don't want everyone to think that the only place you can get good specimens is online. It really hurts the local guys when everyone on here keeps praising LA like they are the Gods of fish stores.

/end

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15255519#post15255519 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MatthewLaw
but can you guarantee that ever single (expensive) fish you received through an online retailer was not in a similar QT situation as the one described above?

imagine how much more we would have to pay if ever QT was really an individual tank with its own heater, power heads, protein skimmer!!

That is why I advocate an intimate understanding of their process. Many talk around their process, some are highly explicit about it. Now it is true that you can somewhat get around supplier deficiencies by having a rigorous quarantine procedure of your own and a treatment process in case the fish has a problem. But how many people, as an example, do this?

If you are buying extremely rare items, isn't it better to pay a bit more rather than lose that item to disease?

[melanotaenia]

A good fish store, that will import rare fish, or any fish for that matter, should be willing to keep a fish for you, in quarantine, until they are free of disease; at the very least they should back up their fish; we always offered a 2 week guarantee on all marine fish we sold, contingent upon the water quality of the customer's tank was not out of whack.

It is too bad more LFS don't do this.

Oh and to the OP, the title of your thread just is inviting a defense from LFS and employees of those stores that stand behind their fish. And I have not worked in my LFS for over 8 years!!!

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15255588#post15255588 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melanotaenia
A good fish store, that will import rare fish, or any fish for that matter, should be willing to keep a fish for you, in quarantine, until they are free of disease; at the very least they should back up their fish; we always offered a 2 week guarantee on all marine fish we sold, contingent upon the water quality of the customer's tank was not out of whack.

It is too bad more LFS don't do this.

I wish they would too.



Oh and to the OP, the title of your thread just is inviting a defense from LFS and employees of those stores that stand behind their fish. And I have not worked in my LFS for over 8 years!!! [/B]

There was no doubt that it would, since that was one of two parts of my purpose in posting. :D

[melanotaenia]

it is really a shame that the LFS can't carry the rare fish, and that LA can't show their fish or offer their fish in person to people. There are still people that are going to be afraid to buy online (which is understandable) while others are going to want to stay away from their LFS due to the lack of knowledge and selection of high quality fish.

[snorvich]

I totally agree.

The hardest thing for LFS is that once a reputation is established (sometimes unfairly), it is difficult to refurbish that perception if there were perceived problems. It takes only one incident of a LFS person pushing an inappropriate fish on someone (or equipment) for that person never to return. But unfortunately, it is sometimes the customer who is at fault yet noone tends to blame themselves.

But too, an LFS cannot afford to stock rare fish because there are so few customers willing to pay the price.

[tony varrell]

I completely agree with snorvich. In fact all my expensive fish over $200.00 are purchased from 2 places online LA and Reef hotspot. We have multipule LFS here in Ft Lauderdale which are quite good with SPS and dry goods but their fish inventory is weak..

[MatthewLaw]

All too frequently the employees at the LFS are not knowledgeable about their product and sometimes too eager to sell the livestock. Something goes wrong in the tank and maybe the employee shares some blame (assuming tank is cycled, customer fully disclosed size of the tank and other inhabitants).

For example, I relied on a LFS close to me and thoroughly discussed the stocking list for my (old) 29g with the female owner. the lady tested my water and slowly the tank was stocked. everything was going well. i added a valentini puffer and everyone was healthy. a special was running this past new years and i inquired into picking up papua toby. lady stated the fish would work well with the other fish and she knew the size of the tank and other inhabitants. put that puffer in and BAM overnight everything but a small false perc was dead in literally 12 hours.

i brought a water sample and the dead fish back to the LFS, asking for advice on why the tank crashed. i didnt demand a refund or store credit, just some aid and guidance. the lady said my pH was low 7s and conveniently threw the test strip away before letting me see it. that was it!!

i bought 3 other pH tests and the pH tested 8.3 every time. brought it to another fish store, tested 8.3. that incident forced me to no longer give my money to that LFS!

i later found out that mixing puffers is a big error unless you have a much larger tank. maybe if the LFS owner disclosed that info before selling the toby, my 29g tank would NOT have crashed?

[wooden_reefer]

I never buy fish online in the same way I don't bother with mail-order brides.

Some fish of the same species are more beautiful and /or in better shape than others.

I always have to look at the individuals. The quality of a fish is encapsulated by the individuals behavior and appearance, to within wide limits.

I don't need or want any guarantee, just selection and great prices.

[melanotaenia]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15256334#post15256334 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MatthewLaw
All too frequently the employees at the LFS are not knowledgeable about their product and sometimes too eager to sell the livestock. Something goes wrong in the tank and maybe the employee shares some blame (assuming tank is cycled, customer fully disclosed size of the tank and other inhabitants).

For example, I relied on a LFS close to me and thoroughly discussed the stocking list for my (old) 29g with the female owner. the lady tested my water and slowly the tank was stocked. everything was going well. i added a valentini puffer and everyone was healthy. a special was running this past new years and i inquired into picking up papua toby. lady stated the fish would work well with the other fish and she knew the size of the tank and other inhabitants. put that puffer in and BAM overnight everything but a small false perc was dead in literally 12 hours.

i brought a water sample and the dead fish back to the LFS, asking for advice on why the tank crashed. i didnt demand a refund or store credit, just some aid and guidance. the lady said my pH was low 7s and conveniently threw the test strip away before letting me see it. that was it!!

i bought 3 other pH tests and the pH tested 8.3 every time. brought it to another fish store, tested 8.3. that incident forced me to no longer give my money to that LFS!

i later found out that mixing puffers is a big error unless you have a much larger tank. maybe if the LFS owner disclosed that info before selling the toby, my 29g tank would NOT have crashed?

This is exactly what makes LFS out to have bad reputations. This is a horrible experience, and there are stores out there just like this. But there are also other stores that are not as concerned with the mighty dollar, but more interested in the hobbyist getting the knowledge they need, and hire employees with the background to offer that knowledge.

In our store, the money was not in the fish anyway; it was in the custom setups we put together in homes with specialized equipment designed exclusively for the particular system the customer wish to keep.

In fact, the store now has a way for the marine biologist to monitor the customer's home tank parameters remotely from the computers at the store by having data sent to a centralized system. How cool is that????

[MatthewLaw]

you are right the whole experience was traumatic for me and made me question if I wanted to continue with this hobby. but the only thing I could do was read about what I did wrong and make sure to never do it again.

i significantly question the knowledge and intentions of most LFS employees and thus before I purchase any fish I consult with people here on reefcentral who have experience and no reason to push the livestock on me.

i understand LFS employees dont have the most glamorous job and aren't getting paid enough to know every fish and its compatible tankmates so i must rely on other sources for my knowledge.

[RegalAngel]

After 27 years away from Tropical Fish, I decided to get back into SW fishes. Last tank was a 135 glass O'Dell tank in 1976. Over the past month I have spent close to $12k on a complete 300g DT with stand, cabinet, canopy, dual filtration system basically you name it; a 50g QT with all the setup; complete water purification system plus tanks......AND it was all purchased online!

When the time comes, I will buy fishes online as well. Living in a low population rural area and the nearest big city is a 5 hr one-way drive away...well you get the picture.

So, I am gradually getting there and another month, I may be up and running. This Internet is the greatest! So much information in forums such as this one, and this is the best reef/fishes forum I have found yet, and there are many.

Oh, I did go into a LFS once in the past 27 years recently, and that was enough to come back to the computer and get to work.

[snorvich]

ROTFLMAO

[anbosu]

I definitely agree that buying expensive fish in a WYSIWYG section make sense. However, if you mostly stay in the <$100 range unless you are starting up a tank it gets tough to justify paying the overnight shipping charges.

I am also pretty lucky in that there is a pretty good wholesaler in my area. There is definitely no reason to ever buy any equipment in the store unless you need it at that exact moment.

[Stanley-Reefer]

I've never had the nerve to get corals or fish online. I'm so picky in person at the lfs I can't bring myself to buy the items I like (usually over $100) site unseen or in the case of WYSIWYG, depending on Fedex to get it to me in good shape...........on the other hand, that's exactly what the lfs does isn't it?!

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15261143#post15261143 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Stanley-Reefer
I've never had the nerve to get corals or fish online. I'm so picky in person at the lfs I can't bring myself to buy the items I like (usually over $100) site unseen or in the case of WYSIWYG, depending on Fedex to get it to me in good shape...........on the other hand, that's exactly what the lfs does isn't it?!

Actually, the LFS, depending on their dollar volume, is at the mercy of the wholesaler. Greater dollar volume stores have greater say in what they get. They operate off an availability list and mostly get what they order from it. Some of the huge dollar online vendors get priority in their requests, and some, who pay a premium to collectors, get even better choice. But for the most part, they don't use FEDEX to get their stuff, it is usually sent airport to airport. So sometimes there are delays and transport time is longer than you would experience as an individual buyer using FEDEX.

[JHemdal]

Snorvich,

I don't agree that FedEx is a better/faster option than air cargo. My FedEx "failure" rate is close to 10% - both incoming and outgoing shipments. By that I mean a box or shipment that was misdirected or broken and fish loss ocurred. I've been told that much of this depends on the hub that is being used, as well as how good your local office / drivers are.

I've only had one properly scheduled air cargo shipment go amiss (domestic or international) in over 25 years...I went to pick up a shipment and they said it was "missing". I walked back in the warehouse and found it for them behind a shipment of flowers.

Box time for a typical FedEx priority shipment for me from LA is around 20 hours. I got a shipment from Japan in less time than that, and domestic air cargo shipments can be a short as 12 hours.

Remember that while FedEx may use its own planes, they suffer from airport delays and weather just like air cargo shipments. Their shipments also spend a LOT more time bouncing around in the back of an unheated truck....that is a HUGE issue for me, any heat packs inside the boxes have worn out by the time the boxes are loaded for their 4 hour truck ride.

Have you ever tried filing a claim with FedEx for a fish shipment? They have so many loopholes, that in all these years, I only got them to pay up once - when they split a shipment. Some of the boxes made it (proving that addressing problems, weather delays, etc. were not the problem). Recently, I had two boxes arrived completely broken - all four side seams split. All the fish were dead, FedEx refused the claim.

Oh yeah - and air cargo through major carriers is ALWAYS less expensive....the only caveat would be that you need to avoid connecting flights if at all possible.


Jay

[scarolina01]

Being new in this hobby I did a lot of research before starting my tank. I read lots online and also talked to some very knowledgable people at my LFS. I've purchased fish both online and at the LFS. Sure you get a better deal on price with the online stores, but you have your shipping charge. Unless you have a large order to me buying online isn't worth it.

To the debate between LFS and online. I personally don't mind paying a little extra for my goods because of the excellent service that I receive. No online retailer can replace a good knowledgable salesman who can talk to you about your tank and offer his opinon.

[MatthewLaw]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15262496#post15262496 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by scarolina01
I personally don't mind paying a little extra for my goods because of the excellent service that I receive. No online retailer can replace a good knowledgable salesman who can talk to you about your tank and offer his opinon.

haha 'knowledgeable salesman' is (frequently) an oxymoron. or at least many of the salesman could be considered apathetic or borderline deceitful.

granted NOT EVERY salesman is like this but we all have stories...

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15262469#post15262469 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JHemdal
Snorvich,

I don't agree that FedEx is a better/faster option than air cargo. My FedEx "failure" rate is close to 10% - both incoming and outgoing shipments. By that I mean a box or shipment that was misdirected or broken and fish loss ocurred. I've been told that much of this depends on the hub that is being used, as well as how good your local office / drivers are.

I've only had one properly scheduled air cargo shipment go amiss (domestic or international) in over 25 years...I went to pick up a shipment and they said it was "missing". I walked back in the warehouse and found it for them behind a shipment of flowers.

Box time for a typical FedEx priority shipment for me from LA is around 20 hours. I got a shipment from Japan in less time than that, and domestic air cargo shipments can be a short as 12 hours.

Remember that while FedEx may use its own planes, they suffer from airport delays and weather just like air cargo shipments. Their shipments also spend a LOT more time bouncing around in the back of an unheated truck....that is a HUGE issue for me, any heat packs inside the boxes have worn out by the time the boxes are loaded for their 4 hour truck ride.

Have you ever tried filing a claim with FedEx for a fish shipment? They have so many loopholes, that in all these years, I only got them to pay up once - when they split a shipment. Some of the boxes made it (proving that addressing problems, weather delays, etc. were not the problem). Recently, I had two boxes arrived completely broken - all four side seams split. All the fish were dead, FedEx refused the claim.

Oh yeah - and air cargo through major carriers is ALWAYS less expensive....the only caveat would be that you need to avoid connecting flights if at all possible.


Jay

Of course, I was not arguing a case for or against FEDEX vis a vis air transport. Never a problem getting a guaranteed replacement if there is a problem from my supplier, but that was not the thrust of my argument in any case.

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15262496#post15262496 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by scarolina01
Being new in this hobby I did a lot of research before starting my tank. I read lots online and also talked to some very knowledgable people at my LFS. I've purchased fish both online and at the LFS. Sure you get a better deal on price with the online stores, but you have your shipping charge. Unless you have a large order to me buying online isn't worth it.

To the debate between LFS and online. I personally don't mind paying a little extra for my goods because of the excellent service that I receive. No online retailer can replace a good knowledgable salesman who can talk to you about your tank and offer his opinon.

Assuming your LFS has a salesman who knows nuts from bolts, that may be true in your case. But I totally disagree that "no online retailer can replace a good knowledgable salesman" since most LFS people have no idea what are the characteristics of fish in my tanks even if I tell them. I do not buy fish online because of price; never was that mentioned nor is that relevant.

[MatthewLaw]

despite being entitled to a 5-14 day guarantee on fish that we purchase at our LFS or online retailer, the fact of the matter is that ultimately we are responisble for the care of those fish. before we purchase the fish, we should do our homework and know about that fish's various needs (ex. diet, size, aquarium size, compatible tankmates, etc).

i have been guilty (as many if not most of us have too) of purchasing a fish without fully knowing about its unacceptable tank mates until it was too late. we need to be responsible for our purchases too and cant blindly rely on what the LFS employee (whether in person or online/email) says to us.

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15262831#post15262831 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MatthewLaw
despite being entitled to a 5-14 day guarantee on fish that we purchase at our LFS or online retailer, the fact of the matter is that ultimately we are responisble for the care of those fish. before we purchase the fish, we should do our homework and know about that fish's various needs (ex. diet, size, aquarium size, compatible tankmates, etc).

i have been guilty (as many if not most of us have too) of purchasing a fish without fully knowing about its unacceptable tank mates until it was too late. we need to be responsible for our purchases too and cant blindly rely on what the LFS employee (whether in person or online/email) says to us.

Boy, do I agree with this. It is one of the main points that should be stressed in this thread.

[melanotaenia]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15262589#post15262589 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MatthewLaw
haha 'knowledgeable salesman' is (frequently) an oxymoron. or at least many of the salesman could be considered apathetic or borderline deceitful.

granted NOT EVERY salesman is like this but we all have stories...

this is certainly not true as much as you may think, personal experiences aside, making generalizations about LFS being deceitful is really not appropriate. There are plenty of stores that go through pretty thorough processes in selecting their staff. Absolutely fish in NJ is one such example of this kind of store philosophy; they also had Clarion angels and Conspics way before anyone else did (if you want to talk about rare fish)......they also practiced very rigorous quarantine practices (not sure if they still do this now as I have not visited the store in a long time)

[MatthewLaw]

Others might have different experiences but more often than not, the LFS employee is passing poor information onto the consumer, which is certainly not appropriate! either they are doing this because they

1. do not know info about the fish
2. dont care to know the info
3. have other priorities on their mind and will say 'whatever' to get the fish sold.

For every employee that knows something about their product, there are at least 5 that have no idea. this lack of knowledge is for very basic information like
1. current specific gravity of their own tanks. many employees do not know what the term 'specific gravity' is. so i have wait 5 minutes for one employee to hunt down the 'expert...'
2. size requirements for well known larger fish. sure throw a hippo tang into 60g, no problems with that at all! no mention of the fish's need for a larger tank in the future. put a few clowns into your tank, no issues with that...
3. basic fish compatibility. mixing a lionfish and trigger usually will not result in a happy tank!

there may be some stores that go through a rigorous process of selecting staff. but I have yet to come across such an establishment (and have been to various stores across the east coast).

I have seen a good number of LFS that do not have proper QT systems. the store simply puts the 'new fish' into a 10g tank that is connected to all the other tanks in the store. effectively contaminating all the other fish!

[iamwrasseman]

hey steve i have bought many fish online and most ,say 85% of them survive and become good citizens in my tanks .the rest have parished and most of them were covered under the guarintee which was great ! my only problem has been the real expensive fish that you can obtain but should probably be left on the reef that become avialable from the online stores . they usually succumb to stress and die resulting in costly losses .there are chances that we have to take to get the "cool" specimines into our tanks and its very cool that we can shop by pictures and recieve the exact fish in 24/48 hours after ordering . i will always shop online because of the possiability of "cherrypicking" some of the rarest and coolest fishes in our oceans around the world .most of my LFS s are a bit more limited to getting whatever they get and thats it . i do also preorder from a couple of LFS s and you get what comes in the bag which sometimes more than less lacks the true expectations that we have ,thats why the wysiwyg sections are so much better . happy reefing to all Dave

[Grassroots]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15249121#post15249121 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
Ok, lets start what may be a lively discussion. I buy ALL of my fish online because:

1. LFS do not offer a 14 day guarantee
2. LFS do not appropriately quarantine and treat fish
3. LFS rarely, if ever, have the fish I am looking for; with an LFS, you select from what they stock which is no where near as wide a variety as online
4. LFS do not stock rare or expert level fish (because their risk is too high) and since there is no guarantee, all risk is assumed by me, the customer
5. Since my fish rarely die once established, and I only have so many places for fish in my tanks, I rarely buy any fish at all; so when I do, I lean towards the unusual

I also only buy online from companies which:

1. Have an unconditional 14 day guarantee on all fish
2. Have a WYSIWYG section

How about everyone else?

Well I have bought online and in stores but
1. My store offers only a 7day guarantee
2. Treats fish if asked
3. I am lucky enough to have a store that is willing to order anything that I ask and actually ask divers to collect a certain species if needed.
4. My store stocks expert and rare fish, it had Clarions and several extremely hard fish to get a hold of and several expert level fish.

Sorry just had to chime in, I guess the store I shop at is a good shop, wish they were all like this. Sadly it appears a majority are not.

edit:
5. Most of my fish do not die but recently I have had a jumping spree for no reason and that is frustrating so now my tank is covered for the time being.

[Tangalong]

All the great ideas and whys and fors are fine and dandy and apply to me also...BUT the most important reason I do is for the excitement and anticipation of waiting to see "what's in the mail" !!!!! LOL.

[JHemdal]

It all boils down to a cost/benefit analysis:

People need to balance all the factors and then decide for themselves which venue works for them. I prefer to see my fish before buying them - I'm confident in my ability to choose healthy fish, and do not like to delegate that to anyone. I don't trust any one person for advice. I research things myself.

However, I know that on-average, 12 to 20% of the fish I buy sight-unseen will not survive past 40 days, so if their landed cost is added to the cost of the remaining fish, and it is still below the local price, I'll go with having the fish shipped in.

I haven't seen this brought up yet: what about the issue of the pulsed effect of shipments? A home aquarist with a 55 gallon tank might not want to order online. Given the economy of scale, they would be better off buying one fish at a time locally, than to buy a box of fish online. The huge increase in bio-load of the latter has caused problems for some people. The solution of course is to split shipments with other local hobbysts.

The epitome of online buying is doing your own importation. There is an upswing in hobbyists trying to pull this off - unsucessfully in some cases given the number of coral confiscations being made by USFWS in my area. I'm working on an article for FAMA this morning which outlines some of the cost/benefits of doing that.

My general advice is for beginners to buy locally, and if they have a good quality store, stick with that at least as they become intermediate aquarists.

Almost 30 years ago, I owned an early "online" supply company, - we called them mailorder back then (grin). I bought the assets of Pacific Sealife Distributors and opened Midwest Marine Life out of my apartment, and using spare tank space at the pet store I worked at to house extra specimens.

It was profitable and fun, but without exception, all of my customers were in it to save money. There was no WYSIWYG, just my verbal description over the telephone. Unhappy customers were common - aside from shipping problems (I used USPS Express mail, there was no FedEx) the most common complaint was that the customers developed a "mind's eye view" of what they thought they were getting - when the specimen arrived, it often didn't match that, and they would be disapointed. My most profitable item? My catalog! Sold for $1.00, so many people bought it as a "dream list", that it paid for my ads in FAMA, plus a bit extra....sorry to digress, I just was having some fun thinking back to the "good 'ol days".

Here is an example invoice from back then: (I still have these on file!)

1 - flame cardinalfish $4.50
1 French angel $12.90
1 - four eye butterfly $8.75
1 - Pygmy angel $9.90
Shipping $8.00



Jay

[scarolina01]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15262697#post15262697 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
Assuming your LFS has a salesman who knows nuts from bolts, that may be true in your case. But I totally disagree that "no online retailer can replace a good knowledgable salesman" since most LFS people have no idea what are the characteristics of fish in my tanks even if I tell them. I do not buy fish online because of price; never was that mentioned nor is that relevant.

I guess my point is that I prefer talking to someone in person about my possible purchase. I work in retail so I know that there are lots of bogus salesmen out there. I do my research and consult with others at my LFS. So far they haven't led me in the wrong direction. Maybe I'm fortunate to have such a good LFS in my area.

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15263726#post15263726 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melanotaenia
this is certainly not true as much as you may think, personal experiences aside, making generalizations about LFS being deceitful is really not appropriate. There are plenty of stores that go through pretty thorough processes in selecting their staff. Absolutely fish in NJ is one such example of this kind of store philosophy; they also had Clarion angels and Conspics way before anyone else did (if you want to talk about rare fish)......they also practiced very rigorous quarantine practices (not sure if they still do this now as I have not visited the store in a long time)

They had clarions before "everyone else"? How did they manage that, being a permit is required for collection, so singular fish likely would not pop up to singular stores?

[MatthewLaw]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15265669#post15265669 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JHemdal


I haven't seen this brought up yet: what about the issue of the pulsed effect of shipments? A home aquarist with a 55 gallon tank might not want to order online. Given the economy of scale, they would be better off buying one fish at a time locally, than to buy a box of fish online. The huge increase in bio-load of the latter has caused problems for some people. The solution of course is to split shipments with other local hobbysts.



Good point, Jay. Although as you mentioned earlier in your post, it comes down to the cost of the individual fish plus shipping versus the LFS. i purchased a real juvi dogface puffer and flame angel through an online dealer for $140 and $50 respectively plus $35 for shipping. my LFS had the same fish for $160 and $65 respectively so already I was saving $35 (which was basically the shipping for the online fish). BUT the ultimate reason i chose the online store was because the flame angel was guaranteed for 14 days. at my LFS, the flame angel is/was not a guaranteed item. my LFS is also 60 miles away (each way) so it would have cost me at least $15 in gas to travel back and forth.

[MatthewLaw]

on a separate but related note, do online retailers get a group discount for all their shipments? My online retailer charges $35 if the shipment is under $225 (otherwise free). when i do a simple overnight quote online through fedex the charge is approximately 2x that amount!

[snorvich]

Actually many/some online vendors subsidize shipping costs to some degree although the pickup of many packages at the same time may affect their costs and there may be a volume discount. Of course any subsidy is embedded in the price. But remember this thread is about what I do, not what I think others should do. All, some, or none of my reasons may be relevant to others. But at least discussion of these factors may be of value to all, some, or none of the readers. What I see is people buying or trying to buy "cheap fish"; one of my points is that long term, that may be a more expensive option.

[MatthewLaw]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15265881#post15265881 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
Of course any subsidy is embedded in the price. But remember this thread is about what I do, not what I think others should do. All, some, or none of my reasons may be relevant to others. But at least discussion of these factors may be of value to all, some, or none of the readers. What I see is people buying or trying to buy "cheap fish"; one of my points is that long term, that may be a more expensive option.

to some extent I agree with your comment. But it is human nature, unless you have never had to work a day in your life for anything, to get the best price for anything you purchase. Whether a great deal on a Ford or Ferrari, people want to feel that they are a worthy 'adversary' for the merchant; almost like they're more knowledgeable and getting a better deal at this price!

Buying a fish at a rate that is higher than everyone else does not guarantee that the fish will be healthy, etc, just that you paid the most for that item. we can only hope that that extra price went into proper QT, medications, ethical collection of the specimen, BEFORE its shipped to you.

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15265994#post15265994 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MatthewLaw
to some extent I agree with your comment. But it is human nature, unless you have never had to work a day in your life for anything, to get the best price for anything you purchase. Whether a great deal on a Ford or Ferrari, people want to feel that they are a worthy 'adversary' for the merchant; almost like they're more knowledgeable and getting a better deal at this price!

Buying a fish at a rate that is higher than everyone else does not guarantee that the fish will be healthy, etc, just that you paid the most for that item. we can only hope that that extra price went into proper QT, medications, ethical collection of the specimen, BEFORE its shipped to you.

Which is why, once confidence in a vendor, be it online, or local fish store is established, there is a great propensity to continue dealing with that vendor. Conversely, when confidence is lost, there is an extreme tendency to avoid. I don't mind paying a premium for a premium process or a premium product. I object strongly to rebuying fish or equipment.

[lzqkeith]

I buy online cause they should get best healthy fish for you , they don't want any trouble

[MatthewLaw]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15266082#post15266082 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
I object strongly to rebuying fish or equipment.

Are you referring to a situation where you receive the fish and it dies a few days later? If there is a guarantee then what do you do with the 'credit,' assuming this is store credit?

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15266551#post15266551 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MatthewLaw
Are you referring to a situation where you receive the fish and it dies a few days later? If there is a guarantee then what do you do with the 'credit,' assuming this is store credit?

That means, I don't like buying cheap equipment that fails after 3 months or fish that die in a month. The vendors I purchase from, however, give me a refund not just a credit.

[michael_cb_125]

Why save a few dollars on inferior equipment and livestock?

I side with the online vendors every time.

LFS- High-Priced low quality equipment - Poor Customer Service - Unhealthy Livestock

vs.

Online Vendors- High Quality Equipment priced Fairly - Amazing Customer Service - Healthy Livestock


There is a reason most LFS do not guarantee their livestock. Why stand behind a product that you know is inferior?

~Michael

[melanotaenia]

online vendors cannot support the entire marine/reef hobby; it is just not possible.

Absolutely fish had Clarions years and years ago, Conspics too; how they got them, I have no clue; but then again, there are fish that pop up here and there that no one really knows how they got them, permit or not, but somehow they find their way into the aquarium hobby. Have the Personatus (sp?) angels that recently surfaced and were sent to Japan been identified as to where and how they were collected???

Do you really think that LA uses all ethical practices in acquiring all the oddball and rare fish you see on Diver's Den? One would like to think so, but I would doubt they do.

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15267684#post15267684 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melanotaenia

Do you really think that LA uses all ethical practices in acquiring all the oddball and rare fish you see on Diver's Den? One would like to think so, but I would doubt they do.

Your supposition is based on what?

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15267684#post15267684 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melanotaenia
online vendors cannot support the entire marine/reef hobby; it is just not possible.

Absolutely fish had Clarions years and years ago, Conspics too; how they got them, I have no clue; but then again, there are fish that pop up here and there that no one really knows how they got them, permit or not, but somehow they find their way into the aquarium hobby. Have the Personatus (sp?) angels that recently surfaced and were sent to Japan been identified as to where and how they were collected???

Do you really think that LA uses all ethical practices in acquiring all the oddball and rare fish you see on Diver's Den? One would like to think so, but I would doubt they do.

Wow. You are impressed with the store the possibly, or even likely, acquired fish illegally? That is sad, for many reasons.

Also, why would you infer that LA acquires illegally or improperly collected fish? At least give me one example of such.

[iamwrasseman]

lets stick to the point here ,yes the fishing is good online regardless of unbacked accusations . yes i use them ,ans yes they have great fish that are very healthy and sometimes quite rare .

[Grassroots]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15266984#post15266984 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by michael_cb_125
Why save a few dollars on inferior equipment and livestock?

I side with the online vendors every time.

LFS- High-Priced low quality equipment - Poor Customer Service - Unhealthy Livestock

vs.

Online Vendors- High Quality Equipment priced Fairly - Amazing Customer Service - Healthy Livestock


There is a reason most LFS do not guarantee their livestock. Why stand behind a product that you know is inferior?

~Michael

you must go to some pretty crappy LFS:(

[snorvich]

Actually, he has a rather nice collection of fish and equipment.

[iamwrasseman]

my LFS is the best in the east ABC reefs ,they just started a couple of years ago but they still listen to the customer which is what i like . also they will let you see the order sheet and buy off it what you want . Tim Dave and Jeremy still are people that you can deal with like your on the same level as they are .

[melanotaenia]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15268876#post15268876 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
Wow. You are impressed with the store the possibly, or even likely, acquired fish illegally? That is sad, for many reasons.

Also, why would you infer that LA acquires illegally or improperly collected fish? At least give me one example of such.

I don't even understand your first statement, so I am not even going to comment.

Example: Clarions that showed up recently (i.e. within the last year) that there was a clear discussion that went on about the legality of their importation into the US (this was probably about a year ago or so). And if you read my statement posted earlier, I only asked the question about ethical practices, and made the statement that I doubt they are ALWAYS followed; I never accused LA of anything ethically wrong.

This is the last statement I am going to make on this thread. Clearly this is discussion is like I stated earlier, a cheerleading thread for LiveAquaria.

[michael_cb_125]

"Clearly this is discussion is like I stated earlier, a cheerleading thread for LiveAquaria."

I am not sure why you feel like this. This is simply a thread where people are discussing the advantages/disadvantages of online vendors and LFS.

Yes, many of the people here are supporters of LA, but we are not pushing this company.

The fact is, that LA sort of sets the standard for online vendors, and as such many people use LA as a model for online ordering.

~Michael

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15271133#post15271133 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melanotaenia
I don't even understand your first statement, so I am not even going to comment.

Example: Clarions that showed up recently (i.e. within the last year) that there was a clear discussion that went on about the legality of their importation into the US (this was probably about a year ago or so). And if you read my statement posted earlier, I only asked the question about ethical practices, and made the statement that I doubt they are ALWAYS followed; I never accused LA of anything ethically wrong.

This is the last statement I am going to make on this thread. Clearly this is discussion is like I stated earlier, a cheerleading thread for LiveAquaria.

Dude, what the heck are you talking about?! As far as I knwo, there was NEVER any discussion about the most recent imports of Clarions. Steve Robinson collected and imported them into teh US, and dotted every "i" and crossed every "t". The last import was like 400 of them, or something. This is the point Im making. How does a store get them "bvefore everyone else", when 400 are brought in, and distributed together. If this store is the ONLY one with access to this specific species of fish (which requires a permit to collect them from their typical habitat), then that raises a question to me. You, yourself, said that you had no idea where they came from, or how they were acquired, but we should "turn a blind eye" (sic) on their collection because you assumed other MUST do it too. That is patently absurd. If you think your facts are correct, and I am wrong, please show me where I can find this information.

BTW, if you accuse one of the most respected online retailer of knowingly selling ethically compromised fish, you are, ipso facto, accusing them of doing wrong.

[MatthewLaw]

as a purely informational question, how do you know that someone else does not have a permit to collect Clarions too?

[iamwrasseman]

although i have used liveaquaria i also usa bluezoo and marine depot so in my case its not a cheerleading yread to me but the opinion of a well informed hobbiest . so please dont put someone down for doing their homework . also please steve would you let us have a chance at some of thoes cool wrasses that you have been buying all up !how do you get them so fast cause we are all paying attention .

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15272081#post15272081 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MatthewLaw
as a purely informational question, how do you know that someone else does not have a permit to collect Clarions too?

Because then there would be clarions available from them. There has not been.

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15272345#post15272345 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by iamwrasseman
although i have used liveaquaria i also usa bluezoo and marine depot so in my case its not a cheerleading yread to me but the opinion of a well informed hobbiest . so please dont put someone down for doing their homework . also please steve would you let us have a chance at some of thoes cool wrasses that you have been buying all up !how do you get them so fast cause we are all paying attention .

I try not to be a pig. I had been watching for the male bipartus for a while and just happened to luck out. I think there was one following the one I purchased.

By the way, while I certainly use LA and DD, I was not really trying to advocate for them. My rarest animals were actually acquired from a collector who is no longer in business.

My intention in this thread was more to put on the table the variables I use in purchasing fish and to emphasize that cheap fish are not necessarily cheaper in the long run.

[iamwrasseman]

they have been avialable this year on occasion . i saw a few dozen for sale at $3000.00 each and each one was sold in a matter of days . gotta be lucky and also spend time every day to find what you want.as you can see snorvich has found many at liveaquaria before the rest of us and snatched them up . nothing meant by that steve .

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15270793#post15270793 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by iamwrasseman
my LFS is the best in the east ABC reefs ,they just started a couple of years ago but they still listen to the customer which is what i like . also they will let you see the order sheet and buy off it what you want . Tim Dave and Jeremy still are people that you can deal with like your on the same level as they are .

And I wish I had one like that around here. Sigh.