Genicanthus Caudovittatus - worth the price?

[Jacob D]

I'm just wondering what others think of these fish and whether or not you think they're worth the price tag we're seeing, which is at or above what G. watanabei and G. semifasciatus fetch. Sure they are (or were) rarely collected, maybe that's because they're much like the common G. melanospilos, just less colorful?

I have seen more of these fish this year than ever before and far less watanabei and I have not seen any semifasciatus this year (and I have been looking, talking to people, etc...) not that I'm some kind of fish monger, just my observation :) Granted they're probably more likely to be in good health since they do not have to be decompressed/pinned, but still the price seems high to me. It's just my opinion.

[Seafood Tank]

I saw 1 pair(male 4.5",female 4"£© in vancouver asking for $280, not really hard to keep, but the salinity must over 1.024.

[stunreefer]

G. Caudovittatus is my favorite species of Genicanthus :D

Are you reffering to LFS prices, or the pair on DD? Personally if I was in the market for this fish I'd pick up the pair from DD in a heartbeat... you know Kevin has them eating, and you have 14 days.

Personally if I want something like this, I'll gladly pay the price for a healthy specimen.

[Vili_Shark]

Hi,

I see them alot on dives in the Red Sea.
The Saudis were collecting them, but now Saudi's closed.

Now they started to show up in Indonesia, so far I saw only large specimens.

Pretty cool fish.

[SDguy]

I think female melanospilos are prettier, and males look the same, IMO. So I wouldn't pay more for them, no. I'd just get melanospilos (which I coincidentally do own :D )

[snorvich]

Great fish. I don't know if the pair being sold is bonded; if it is the male will likely stay a male. I personally like the male in the DD pair better than the single. It has been my experience that a male Genicanthus will often revert to being female absent a female.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15261253#post15261253 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
It has been my experience that a male Genicanthus will often revert to being female absent a female.

Or sometimes even with a female present :(

[Jacob D]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15260817#post15260817 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stunreefer
G. Caudovittatus is my favorite species of Genicanthus :D

Are you reffering to LFS prices, or the pair on DD? Personally if I was in the market for this fish I'd pick up the pair from DD in a heartbeat... you know Kevin has them eating, and you have 14 days.

Personally if I want something like this, I'll gladly pay the price for a healthy specimen.

I'm talking in general. I realize DD is always a little higher and I agree that it justifies the cost most of the time. If they are your favorite fish then of course you'll pay whatever price for them :)

My point was rather, that the market price seems inflated given the fact that they are fairly abundant in relatively shallow water compared to the watanabei and semifasciatus which fetch the same price and are collected at greater depths. I do recall seeing a pair of these for $199 earlier in the year. That is the best price I have seen them at and at that price I might consider owning them only because I'm setting up an Indian Ocean / Red Sea endemic, I still really want watanabe's though :D By the way, I have not seen these fish at any B&M-only LFS.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15260884#post15260884 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Vili_Shark
Hi,

I see them alot on dives in the Red Sea.
The Saudis were collecting them, but now Saudi's closed.

Now they started to show up in Indonesia, so far I saw only large specimens.

Pretty cool fish.

I agree, they are cool fish. Personally I think melanospilos are more interesting and cost much less. On an unrelated inquiry, do you happen to know divers who collect fish in the Indian Ocean area (near Red Sea or otherwise)? I'm looking to make a connection if possible...


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15260985#post15260985 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
I think female melanospilos are prettier, and males look the same, IMO. So I wouldn't pay more for them, no. I'd just get melanospilos (which I coincidentally do own :D )
That is my thinking as well. The males are very similar in appearance and the female melanospilos definitely has more color. My opinion is that the so called "rarity" of the fish is bringing in nice profits vs. some of the other "actually rare" Genicanthus. I really do wonder if these fish became rare in the hobby only because they are a less flashy melanospilos and are found in the Red Sea (mostly). I'm not making these statements in an angry tone, or attacking anyone here, just want to say that to avoid any flame wars :)


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15261253#post15261253 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
Great fish. I don't know if the pair being sold is bonded; if it is the male will likely stay a male. I personally like the male in the DD pair better than the single. It has been my experience that a male Genicanthus will often revert to being female absent a female.
I've had the same experience with watanabe's. I've also had two pairs of "unbonded" watanabes and an pair of unbonded melanspilos and the males never changed sex. They took to each other in the tank and I suppose became "bonded". I realize this won't always be the case, however it seems like Genicanthus tend to pair up pretty easily as compared with some other fish (I'm having a hell of a time pairing some b/flys at the moment).


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15261363#post15261363 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
Or sometimes even with a female present :(
Yes, an unfortunate situation for the owner of the fish!

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15261363#post15261363 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
Or sometimes even with a female present :(

Yeah, I had that happen too. A bit of a problem.

[joetbs]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15261492#post15261492 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jacob D

My point was rather, that the market price seems inflated given the fact that they are fairly abundant in relatively shallow water compared to the watanabei and semifasciatus which fetch the same price and are collected at greater depths.

You do realize these are collected pretty deep at 45-55m (150-180 feet) right?

[sweetrav18]

pics

[jmaneyapanda]

I never understand questions like this? Are they worth it? To the people that buy them- yes. To the people that don't- no.

The same could be asked of everything in everyone reef aquarium. Is this or that coral worth it? Is a yellow tang worth it? People buy what they like, and what moves them.

[snorvich]

+1 with jmaneyapanda.

[gasman059]

genichantus are truly great angels- and yes I would pay for them.

+2 with above

[SDguy]

+ nothing. I just thought this was a question about paying more for a Red Sea fish. Apparently I didn't read the entire first post :o

[Jacob D]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15265487#post15265487 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
I never understand questions like this? Are they worth it? To the people that buy them- yes. To the people that don't- no.

The same could be asked of everything in everyone reef aquarium. Is this or that coral worth it? Is a yellow tang worth it? People buy what they like, and what moves them.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15266960#post15266960 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
+1 with jmaneyapanda.



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15268214#post15268214 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gasman059
genichantus are truly great angels- and yes I would pay for them.

+2 with above



Look, guys/gals, if you don't understand the question then you should ask for clarification before responding. This thread is not about buying what moves you and it's not about genicanthus as a group wonderful and worth paying a premium for.


If do understand the question but you still feel indifferent then there's really no reason to post because it doesn't contribute anything useful to the discussion. In this case I gave a context in which I thought the caudovittatus is over priced relative to some other genicanthus. This shouldn't be a foreign idea to anyone who has ever compared similar "products" and decided which one justifies the price. Would you pay $800 for a swiss basslet knowing a candy basslet costs that much? Would you pay $300 for a solar wrasse knowing a rhomboid costs that much? Of course not. When a context is used then YES it is reasonable to make an evaluation. Otherwise if we let our emotions run us we would all be bankrupt :)

In this case I was looking at these fish, because as I mentioned above, I've decided on a Red Sea / Indian Ocean endemic (endemics plural if you're really picky). I've always been a big fan of the watanabe angel but I had considered not putting them in this tank and instead going with the caudovittatus to stick with my plan. This seemed to make sense since they seem to showing up in almost every major online retailer this year, and earlier in the year the prices I had seen were more "realistic" in the context of a fish who's collection depth overlaps G. melanospilos and G. watanabe who's overall appearance is very similar G. melanospilos (probably by most people's standards it's more bland), and who's actual rarity is unknown.

[gasman059]

jacob I have a melanospilos male and IMHO they are simply not close.
The only good pic of both is in marinecenter and not the liveaquaria representation, in fact the one pictured in LA may very well be a melanospilos.
But then again u are prolly right beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I do believe the collection depths are different(perhaps).

[Jacob D]

There are quite a few pics of both on the web. To my eye the males or more similar than the females. I'm not arguing that they look identical, just similar... but I have not seen them side by side in person.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=CJK&q=genicanthus%20caudovittatus&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

http://images.google.com/images?q=genicanthus%20melanospilos&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi


You could be right about the single male on DD. He doesn't have the pronounced black bar on his dorsal fin.

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15260040#post15260040 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jacob D
I'm just wondering what others think of these fish and whether or not you think they're worth the price tag we're seeing, which is at or above what G. watanabei and G. semifasciatus fetch. Sure they are (or were) rarely collected, maybe that's because they're much like the common G. melanospilos, just less colorful?

I have seen more of these fish this year than ever before and far less watanabei and I have not seen any semifasciatus this year (and I have been looking, talking to people, etc...) not that I'm some kind of fish monger, just my observation :) Granted they're probably more likely to be in good health since they do not have to be decompressed/pinned, but still the price seems high to me. It's just my opinion.

This is your original post. I understand your question completely, and its a moot discussion. Do I think its worth the price tag? Yes. Do you? Apparently not. If your gauge of "worth" is what other Genicanthus angels cost, then that is your prerogative. Mine is not.

FWIW, I do not equate Genicanthis caudovittatus and Genicanthus melanospilos, as you are doing. As Gasman stated, they are not close in appearance. Even if theyw ere close in appearnce, they are different species, with entirely different collection avaiability and arrangement.

Again, in my mind, what you are asking is the same as saying "why do people pay what they do for Purple Monster Acros? I have a purple acro that I paid $10 for." They are not the same. If you wouldnt pay the premium for the premium product so be it.

But, to each, their own.

[gasman059]

thx for d pics
BTW in my eyes they are completely different fish.

[Jacob D]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15265487#post15265487 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
I never understand questions like this

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15272095#post15272095 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
I understand your question completely.


Not sure you do, but with your rationale it doesn't matter anyway. If it's a moot discussion, then what's with the persistent response from you? Sorry I bruised your ego, geez.

[jmaneyapanda]

Got me. Good luck with your quest.

[JHemdal]

So Jacob, - if I understand your original question correctly, you're asking if people think that the price for caudovittatus is artificially high due to demand, or is the cost reflecting its true intrinsic value?

I can't say, but I'll tell you in about six months (grin) - if the price drops, then the market was just being tested, if the price remains high, then there are valid costs associated with acquiring that species for market.

Recent cases where the market was being "tested" - greissinger gobies, polleni grouper and perhaps borbonius anthias. The classic case of this was during the introduction of the mandarinfish - the first one I saw back in the early 1970's was $300. Within a year, the price dropped to $19.95

Cases where the intrinsic value of the fish is high: wrought iron butterflyfish, emperor angels, etc.


Jay

[Jacob D]

Jay, that's pretty much what I'm saying. Thank you for phrasing it more elegantly for me :)

Borbonius is a perfect example.

[zooty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15275170#post15275170 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JHemdal
So Jacob, - if I understand your original question correctly, you're asking if people think that the price for caudovittatus is artificially high due to demand, or is the cost reflecting its true intrinsic value?

I can't say, but I'll tell you in about six months (grin) - if the price drops, then the market was just being tested, if the price remains high, then there are valid costs associated with acquiring that species for market.

Recent cases where the market was being "tested" - greissinger gobies, polleni grouper and perhaps borbonius anthias. The classic case of this was during the introduction of the mandarinfish - the first one I saw back in the early 1970's was $300. Within a year, the price dropped to $19.95

Cases where the intrinsic value of the fish is high: wrought iron butterflyfish, emperor angels, etc.


Jay

Soooooo
If I want one, I should wait 6 months to see if the price comes down? :D

[gasman059]

completely dif fish IMHO.;)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n320/gasman059/020-2.jpg[/IMG]

[Jacob D]

^^ and that would be a melanospilos, correct?

[SDguy]

I personally find males to be VERY similar.... other than the obvious black patch on the dorsal fin. From the google images I looked through, I think that maybe caudovittatus also gets a bit more striping all around/under the eye, not just above it; though that could be a function of size/age of the male.

http://www.fishbase.org/images/species/Gecau_m3.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Maleswallowtailangel1-27-07withflas.jpg

[Vili_Shark]

I have never seen a melanospilus in the wild.

I did see some caudovittatus and the full grown males looks awsome, they have kind of metallic color.

I got a few pics from Indonesia of a pair and it was full adult pair, smiliar the ones I see in the Red Sea.
Spectacular fish.

[BangkokMatt]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15280830#post15280830 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zooty
Soooooo
If I want one, I should wait 6 months to see if the price comes down? :D
That's a tricky one. They have been rarely seen in the trade (in fact I have never seen one for sale - but I live in Thailand) until recently. Obviously somebody is now collecting but for how long. Apparently, they were available to the hobbyist about 10 years ago and then disappeared.
The price is not high really. If you want them go for it. If the price drops - oh well. If they stop being available again you may well regret not getting them.

[Jacob D]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15280830#post15280830 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zooty
Soooooo
If I want one, I should wait 6 months to see if the price comes down? :D
You could potentially save $200-$300 on a pair gauging from prices earlier this year, but if you really want them it might be a good idea to just pull the trigger. Like Matt said future availability and pricing is hard to predict right now. Since these fish are most likely seasonally collected it might be a year before you get a chance to find out if the prices have dropped or not.




<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15261590#post15261590 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by joetbs
You do realize these are collected pretty deep at 45-55m (150-180 feet) right?
Depending on the source of information they inhabit depth as shallow as 2 meters (fishbase, 2-70 meters).
"Inhabits shallow waters in the Red Sea; deeper in the Andaman Sea, usually at depths of 40 m or more. "

A Reefkeeping magazine article states collection depth of 30 feet for G. caudovittatus. Other sources put them at 25 meters and deeper. There is a recent photo thread with pictures from the Red Sea where the diver/OP states that he photographed them around 20 meters and there were quite a few of them to be seen. All of this information supports good likelihood of collection at 20-25 meters in the Red Sea. That's around the same range as G. melanospilos.

[SDguy]

But then doesn't collection from the Red Sea negate any cost savings of shallow water collection?

[Jacob D]

Probably to an extent. There's been at least one pair though that sold for $199 (not from DD) and a few individuals showing up on other sites for about the same price until recently. So they either came from the Red Sea or somewhere else, but if it was elsewhere they were most likely from deeper water.

[Vili_Shark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15288146#post15288146 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jacob D
Probably to an extent. There's been at least one pair though that sold for $199 (not from DD) and a few individuals showing up on other sites for about the same price until recently. So they either came from the Red Sea or somewhere else, but if it was elsewhere they were most likely from deeper water.


They are not coming from the Red Sea.

Given the current prices of the couple regular exporters from the Red Sea, for the more common fish like purple tangs and sohals , G.caudovittatus should costs much more than what they're asking here.

In the past couple of months they showed up in Indonesia exporters lists, first i thought its a mistake, but then I checked the pics and they are real caudovittatus, Dave Palmer told me they're probably from Sumatra.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15289445#post15289445 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Vili_Shark
They are not coming from the Red Sea.

Given the current prices of the couple regular exporters from the Red Sea, for the more common fish like purple tangs and sohals , G.caudovittatus should costs much more than what they're asking here.

Is that why I haven't seen Chaetodon paucifasciatus for a while now? :( :(

[Jacob D]

Another pair just showed up on DD. This one is about $150 less than the last pair they had.

[LamboBoy]

I know this is a very old post but a pair of G.Caudovittatus just showed up yesterday on DD for $599.00. I guess it's because we don't see them very often anymore?

[myerst2]

What is this Gen. Worth. Lol.....

Jeremy I would especially like to know what it's worth to you?

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg22/myerst22/505d0c04670724a598aec2b2a5b40f22_zpsxzuccevb.jpg