All fish DEAD! Why?!

[Rae C.]

Last night, I fed the fish, they were happy and healthy. I had let the HOB fuge stop running for two days because I hadn't made quite enough ASW to fill the tank. Took that long to adjust the salinity to the right level.

Before i went to bed, I topped the tank with ASW and turned on the fuge. Woke up this morning to dead fish. The clean-up crew isn't even touching them. Snails and hermits are moving around. Urchin looks dead.

All the corals look fine.

.Here's this mornings paramaters

78.5 F (It's low for the overnight, but quite part of the normal swing between 77 and 81, been doing that for 2 years and 13 days)

1.025 Salinity

Ammonia 0
nitrate 0
nitrite 0
phosphates 0 (I think. The color of the final tube looks more yellow than anything onthe color card)
calcium 440
ph 7.8
carbonate 89.5

Here are the parameters from Tuesday 7/7
temp 81.4
salinity 1.026
ammonia 0
nitrate 0
nitrite 0
phospate 0
calcium 460
carbonate 71.6


What happened? What else should I measure for? The corals seem okay, is that just a temporary thing? I'm trying to remain scientific about it, but could get emotional soon

[snorvich]

What are you measuring salinity with? Refractometer (recommended) or hydrometer (NOT recommended). It may be that your HOB refugium had a problem with not having flow?

[Rae C.]

I'm suspecting the HOB. I am using a hydrometer. i figure as long as the new water matches the tank water or a tad lower and both measurements are within 1.024 and 1.026 then there will be no drastic change.

It baffles me that the corals seem to be fine, but the fish died. i thought the corals were much more sensitive to the chemistry of the water.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Corals and fish are sensitive in different ways. Fish have much faster metabolisms (i.e. the burn more energy/oxygen per unit of time per unit of biomass).

What was the condition of your HOB 'fuge for the two days it was offline? Did it have water in it? Plants? Mud? Anything else? Was it literally sitting 100% stagnant?

I'm sure you've done this already, but I would think carefully though your water change procedure too - did you use the same equipment as always? Treat or filter the source water the same? Use the same brand salt mix? Additives? etc.?

[Rae C.]

water change procedure was the same as always. Same salt, same pump, same same

The fuge had all its normal inhabitants (algae, sand, pods and worms) It had water, but no heat or circulation for two days.

RODI was used, TDI still measures 0 at output.

It was the fuge I'm sure, I just don't know what else to test for to prevent losing the corals.

[WhoDey64]

Sorry to read about this Rae C. I enjoyed reading your build log and know that this is probably a sad day for your household.

Did the life in the fuge (pods ect) seem active and heathly before you restarted it? Perhaps the PH had bottomed out in the fuge and when you restarted the system it could have caused a temporary fatal drop in PH when the two systems water mixed. Your PH of 7.8 is fairly typical of a system with no fuge if taken right before lights on, but who knows how far it may have dropped overnight.

This is all just a guess, but I hope somebody helps you figure this one out :(

[Rae C.]

Y'know, I didn't even check for life in the fuge when I Turned it back on. I had just returned from a long day trip and it was late. I turned it on while adding new salt water to the main tank, then went to bed. The algae (caulerpa) looks good and healthy. I don't see any pods right now, I'll have to get in there and look more carefully.

[Aquarist007]

My heart goes out to you Rae

With your parameter okay I am making a stab at chemical poisons. It might have been the urchin dying or a fight between the urchin and one or more of your corals.
Poisons or toxins are really hard to detect.
At any rate running carbon in a reactor 24/7 and changing it out every 2-3 weeks is somewhat of an insurance for that.

If you haven't done so already I would take steps to preserve the inverts and corals:
(assuming you have removed the fish
50 per cent water change
run fresh carbon--change it out in 2 days
rinse out the protein skimmer cup and crank it up so it is producing really wet dilute skimmate

Good luck I hope you can save the rest of your tank.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15349976#post15349976 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
My heart goes out to you Rae

With your parameter okay I am making a stab at chemical poisons. It might have been the urchin dying or a fight between the urchin and one or more of your corals.
Poisons or toxins are really hard to detect.
At any rate running carbon in a reactor 24/7 and changing it out every 2-3 weeks is somewhat of an insurance for that.

If you haven't done so already I would take steps to preserve the inverts and corals:
(assuming you have removed the fish
50 per cent water change
run fresh carbon--change it out in 2 days
rinse out the protein skimmer cup and crank it up so it is producing really wet dilute skimmate

Good luck I hope you can save the rest of your tank.

BTW
how many and what kind of fish died?

[raen]

OMgosh Rae. This is the PITTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am SO sorry about it! I hope you are able to find the problem. When that happened to me, it was flow. I luckily caught it in time, but, it was a long slow recovery.

[raen]

OMgosh Rae. This is the PITTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am SO sorry about it! I hope you are able to find the problem. When that happened to me, it was flow. I luckily caught it in time, but, it was a long slow recovery.

[sedor]

I'm going to guess it was some sort of poison from the coral. Something drastic enough to take out an entire tank of fish in one night should have taken the coral out as well, unless its something coral can handle. It will probably always be a mystery. I guess you can look at the bright side, you still have your coral. A couple large water changes are in order.

[Aquarist007]

Here is another possibility for just taking out the fish and nothing else:

"I'd say it could be stray current too....I had a simular problem...I bought a new light that kept making a humming sound....I had 2 fish that were fine in this tank until I added the light...Within 3 days both fish died, but the coral and snails were fine...as was the water quality....I changed some of the water, and added 2 more fish..same thing happend....heavy breathing, hanging near the top of the tank....they died within days...i got rid of that light, added a new one, and have not had any problems at all since.......so check your tank fro stray electic current.... "

from another reef site

[Rae C.]

I've been able to retrieve the two clowns and one gramma. I can see the mandarine, but it's in a cave in the middle of all the rocks. I'm afraid dismantling the rocks to get to the fish would be more stressful on the corals than leaving the fish.

Can't find the cardinal or the other gramma.

The urchin is fine. I thought it was toast too, then grabbed at it with my "grabbers" and it was a bit ticked at me.

I've cleaned out the skimmer cup. Should I pull the whole skimmer and clean it, or leave it running wet? I don't have a carbon filter. I have carbon in a fiber packet for the fresh water tank. If I put a clean one in the fuge, will it work the same?

I've already laid out $100 for the QT for the tang. I'm taking it back today to the LFS and asking them to run tests on the water as well. Maybe it'll get me credit toward a canister?

The Clowns were 2.9" and 1.85". The gramma was 2.1". Just taking whatever data I can. Trying to stay scientific.

The kids were dropped at camp for the week yesterday. They're gonna be devastated.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15350084#post15350084 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rae C.
I've been able to retrieve the two clowns and one gramma. I can see the mandarine, but it's in a cave in the middle of all the rocks. I'm afraid dismantling the rocks to get to the fish would be more stressful on the corals than leaving the fish.

Can't find the cardinal or the other gramma.

The urchin is fine. I thought it was toast too, then grabbed at it with my "grabbers" and it was a bit ticked at me.

I've cleaned out the skimmer cup. Should I pull the whole skimmer and clean it, or leave it running wet? I don't have a carbon filter. I have carbon in a fiber packet for the fresh water tank. If I put a clean one in the fuge, will it work the same?

I've already laid out $100 for the QT for the tang. I'm taking it back today to the LFS and asking them to run tests on the water as well. Maybe it'll get me credit toward a canister?

The Clowns were 2.9" and 1.85". The gramma was 2.1". Just taking whatever data I can. Trying to stay scientific.

The kids were dropped at camp for the week yesterday. They're gonna be devastated.

Just clean the skimmer cup and then set up the skimmer so the bubble column is coming up farther in the neck---alot of reefers do water changes this way--but you will have to drain the cup more often.

You can run the carbon like you stated for now.

The key is the immediate water change Rae

I would not buy a cannister filter to run carbon--rather the phosban reactors from Two Little Fishes---they are about 35 dollars.

Why did you spend 100 bucks on a qt----the bucket you had would have done fine?

I am still not clear on how many fish you had and how many died

[Rae C.]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15349923#post15349923 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WhoDey64
Sorry to read about this Rae C. I enjoyed reading your build log and know that this is probably a sad day for your household.

Did the life in the fuge (pods ect) seem active and heathly before you restarted it? Perhaps the PH had bottomed out in the fuge and when you restarted the system it could have caused a temporary fatal drop in PH when the two systems water mixed. Your PH of 7.8 is fairly typical of a system with no fuge if taken right before lights on, but who knows how far it may have dropped overnight.



THe LFS just opened and I think my phone call was the first they got. The guy there thinks it was a pH dip as well. He's not sure they can test for anything I haven't already tested for, but I'm going to take some water in anyway. He also said they don't really take fish back, but he'll let me bring the QT'd tang back for credit.

[mullinsd2]

I am sorry to hear about your situation, and I hope things turn around for you in the near future.

[cdness]

Saltwater when sitting stagnant for a good amount of time will die. The fuge with no air, heat, or movement turned into a fuge of dead water. You should have tried to drain all the water out of the fuge if it sat that long to avoid getting the dead water back into the tank.

Sorry for the losses... hopefully the corals pull through.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15350213#post15350213 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cdness
Saltwater when sitting stagnant for a good amount of time will die. The fuge with no air, heat, or movement turned into a fuge of dead water. You should have tried to drain all the water out of the fuge if it sat that long to avoid getting the dead water back into the tank.

Sorry for the losses... hopefully the corals pull through.

I agree with you but the puzzling thing about that is that the small inverts and corals were not affected.

[Rae C.]

So the total fish count is six small ones.

The urchin is alive and well.

Cap'n, I spent money on a 20gL for the tang so the kids could see it and I could observe it better. The bucket was hard for observing. The tank itself wasn't that bad, it was adding another heater, and hob filter, a screen so he wouldn't jump out, copper for just in case, veggie food, and I included the price of the tang itself since it was an impulse purchase.

Like we've mentioned, the weird thing is the corals are fine, the tiny little feather dusters are fine, the nudibranch is fine.

The monti looks bad, but I think it's just because it's morning and the water is on the cold part if its cycle, so really it looks normal for this time of day I'm giving that another hour before I declare its health.

Off to the LFS. We'll see if my test kits are way off or if it was something else.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15350318#post15350318 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rae C.
So the total fish count is six small ones.

The urchin is alive and well.

Cap'n, I spent money on a 20gL for the tang so the kids could see it and I could observe it better. The bucket was hard for observing. The tank itself wasn't that bad, it was adding another heater, and hob filter, a screen so he wouldn't jump out, copper for just in case, veggie food, and I included the price of the tang itself since it was an impulse purchase.

Like we've mentioned, the weird thing is the corals are fine, the tiny little feather dusters are fine, the nudibranch is fine.

The monti looks bad, but I think it's just because it's morning and the water is on the cold part if its cycle, so really it looks normal for this time of day I'm giving that another hour before I declare its health.

Off to the LFS. We'll see if my test kits are way off or if it was something else.

if your heater is on --shut it off-----I'm still thinking volatage leak and or coral toxins.

[Rae C.]

LFS also thinks it was a sudden pH drop when I turned the fuge back on. I didn't think the volume of water in the fuge would impact the tank, but apparantly it can. With a current pH of 7.8, he thinks the drop was even lower shortly after i turned the fuge on. 7.8 is low enough to kill fish. So I'll buffer the water and get the pH to stabilize for a couple weeks before I restock with fish.

i got full credit for the tang, picked up some chaeto to make sure the fuge will work for the missing fish emissions. i can see the mandarin,but can't get to him. I'm missing a gramma (probably 2 inches) and the pajama (another 2 inches of fish flesh). I'm thinking constant water changes this week. 20% each time.

Will baking soda work or do I need the Buffer sold in the store to get the pH back. Or will water changes do it?

I'll switch out the heater. I have a new one anyway.

Now I get to go to the auction house to deliver the rest of my grandmother's furniture and things. (she died in January) Kind of a gloomy Monday.

[cdness]

do the water changes and let the tank buffer itself back up. using the baking soda or the retail buffers is only a temporary raise but the water changes will get it to where it needs to be. I'd do a 50% change right away to get rid of the junk in the water. Also you may see a cycle again due to the fish still in the tank. I'd recommend moving what you need to move to get the fish out... Decaying fish will only intensify the cycle...

[Rae C.]

Rats. I gotta get a move on the day. Hopefully, I can do the fish expedition this evening. in the meantime, I'm mixing salt water all day to do a huge change when I get back this afternoon.

For future reference, how should a person bring a refugium back online after being down for a couple of ddays. Especially an HOB, which can't really be run as it's own unit (as opposed to a remote)?

[WhoDey64]

A small airstone should do the trick hooked up to a run of the mill air pump. That will give you current and surface movement to allow for gas exchange.

[cdness]

Airstone sure would do the trick. You could even have it in there all the time if you wanted to. That way you wouldn't have to worry as much. Now temp wise you don't want it to swing too far either direction so if your room is really cold, you might want to add a tiny heater too.

How far down did your tank get? Most of the HOB fuges have a supply pump right? Can't you just put the supply pump lower in the tank with a small and simple DIY entension? They you will never have to worry about it.

I have a couple questions though...

1. Was the water level low due to evaporation or did you lower it during a water change?

2. By ASW do you mean mixed saltwater or freshwater?

[WaterKeeper]

Racy,

Sorry about the loss but it is very unusual for the fish to die and not much else. One thing comes to mind. Have you been doing any spraying lately for bugs? If so what did you use?

[EnglishRebel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15351787#post15351787 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper
Racy,

Sorry about the loss but it is very unusual for the fish to die and not much else. One thing comes to mind. Have you been doing any spraying lately for bugs? If so what did you use?

Ah Tom, always looking for the chemical culprit -- you can take the chemist out of the lab but you can't take the lab out of the chemist. :p :p

Good point though. I have a cleaning lady who comes in every two weeks (I'm a neat freak as you well know). When I got my display up and running I told her to make sure she didn't spray furniture polish anywhere near the tank but to spray her cleaning cloth and then clean the furniture. :)

[Rae C.]

I sprayed for ants in the kitchen, but that's a different room than the tank is in, and it was only at the base of the sliding door, which was open. Also, the Tang was in its QT on the kitchen counter next to the door and it survived.

cdness - next time I will a) use an airstone and b) have extensions on hand for the intake pump on the fuge. The water was just low enough for the intake pump to gurgle, water level was about at the halfway mark of the intake. Now that I've learned this hard lesson, I'll be more aware of the fuge water and it's flow. And pH.

ASW is Artificial Salt Water.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15352897#post15352897 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rae C.
I sprayed for ants in the kitchen, but that's a different room than the tank is in, and it was only at the base of the sliding door, which was open. Also, the Tang was in its QT on the kitchen counter next to the door and it survived.

cdness - next time I will a) use an airstone and b) have extensions on hand for the intake pump on the fuge. The water was just low enough for the intake pump to gurgle, water level was about at the halfway mark of the intake. Now that I've learned this hard lesson, I'll be more aware of the fuge water and it's flow. And pH.

ASW is Artificial Salt Water.

did you put your hands in the tank after using the insecticide?

Is your heater on?

[Rae C.]

I washed my hands thoroughly with soap and water directly after spraying. I haven't put bare hands in my tank since you got stung. :)

The new heater is on.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15353976#post15353976 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rae C.
I washed my hands thoroughly with soap and water directly after spraying. I haven't put bare hands in my tank since you got stung. :)

The new heater is on.

:lol: I am still reminded of that one

If you don't need a heater at this time then don't use it--its just something that could go wrong.

[Rae C.]

I did a 15gal water change last night. Then tested the params an hour later. Everything is measuring perfectly. pH is up, 'trates and 'trites are 0. Corals all look good.

This morning there are many urchin spines around the sand. I wonder if they are because I basted all the rocks last night and they are accumulated or if the urching is losing spines. He looks okay from where I can see him. He's behind the rocks, but moving normally.

I'm making up more salt water for tonight's water change. My water bill is going to be quite high this month. Oh well. I'm getting lots of laundry done this week though, with all the waste water!

[jimsplace]

I didn't see anything about water circulation in your tank while the fuge was down. When hurricane Ike hit last year, almost all of my fish were dead within a few hours due to lack of circulation. Corals and most inverts survived for almost 2 days without power. I now have a generator, won't happen again!

[Rae C.]

Jim, I kept on a Koralia 3 and a maxijet, as well as the skimmer. Plenty of circulation in the tank. How long after you recoverd from Ike did yo u wait until adding fish? How did you bring that pH back up?

Todays readings were

80 degrees
pH 8.0
alkalinity 5 degrees
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 0
phosphate 0

Still haven't found the missing three fish. I plan on continuing the water changes everyday for at least a week, testing pH, nitrites and nitrates for several weeks.

The skimmer is skimming like crazy, it used to fill in 3 days, now it's filled in one. I'm skimming a little wetter, but the skimmate smells more than it used to, so I think it's really taking out the nasties.

Should I put a bubbler in the fuge? Would that help stabilize the pH? Or should I go buy some buffer?

[jimsplace]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15358373#post15358373 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rae C.
Jim, I kept on a Koralia 3 and a maxijet, as well as the skimmer. Plenty of circulation in the tank. How long after you recoverd from Ike did yo u wait until adding fish? How did you bring that pH back up?

Todays readings were

80 degrees
pH 8.0
alkalinity 5 degrees
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 0
phosphate 0

Still haven't found the missing three fish. I plan on continuing the water changes everyday for at least a week, testing pH, nitrites and nitrates for several weeks.

The skimmer is skimming like crazy, it used to fill in 3 days, now it's filled in one. I'm skimming a little wetter, but the skimmate smells more than it used to, so I think it's really taking out the nasties.

Should I put a bubbler in the fuge? Would that help stabilize the pH? Or should I go buy some buffer?

I don't really remember how long it was before I added fish, but it was a while since I had too many other things going on to worry about. At that time, my PH was on the low side (7.8+/-) anyway, but I don't remember it dropping during the power failure though. At 8.0, your PH is not that bad. Be careful with adding buffer or you will get your cal/alk balance screwed up. I guess I would go along with the therory that maybe the sump water killed the fish. I know I was amazed at how fast the fish died and yet all the corals and inverts were fine. I think I would continue with wet skimming and water changes, sounds like your headed in the right direction.

[WaterKeeper]

RIP missing fish. That's what the skimmer is skimming right now. At least ammonia levels are down but how is that urchcin looking?

[aquaph8]

throw in a good sized serpent star, he will find the missing fish and take care of them for you. Mine usually beats me to anything that dies.

[Rae C.]

The urchin is still in the same corner as this morning. Moving his spines, but not really moving around. There are several spines scattered on the sand. I'm worried about him.

[WaterKeeper]

Aquaph,

We do try to have no missing fish/dead fish on this forum. I know stuff happens but I hate to see it.

I try to instill the fact on this forum that our fish are pets, the same as cats and dogs, and, we should do everything in our power to insure their well being.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15358373#post15358373 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rae C.
Jim, I kept on a Koralia 3 and a maxijet, as well as the skimmer. Plenty of circulation in the tank. How long after you recoverd from Ike did yo u wait until adding fish? How did you bring that pH back up?

Todays readings were

80 degrees
pH 8.0
alkalinity 5 degrees
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 0
phosphate 0

Still haven't found the missing three fish. I plan on continuing the water changes everyday for at least a week, testing pH, nitrites and nitrates for several weeks.

The skimmer is skimming like crazy, it used to fill in 3 days, now it's filled in one. I'm skimming a little wetter, but the skimmate smells more than it used to, so I think it's really taking out the nasties.

Should I put a bubbler in the fuge? Would that help stabilize the pH? Or should I go buy some buffer?

are you running carbon too?

[Rae C.]

I've got a fiber pouch with charcoal in it, sitting in the fuge. Not sure how carbon would help pH.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15359076#post15359076 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rae C.
I've got a fiber pouch with charcoal in it, sitting in the fuge. Not sure how carbon would help pH.

not for helping pH--more cleaning the water up after the deaths that have occured and possible poisons/toxins.

Do you have a sump Rae--and is that where your fuge is?

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15358516#post15358516 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper
Aquaph,

We do try to have no missing fish/dead fish on this forum. I know stuff happens but I hate to see it.

I try to instill the fact on this forum that our fish are pets, the same as cats and dogs, and, we should do everything in our power to insure their well being.

Most of us have named our fish--or our kids or grandkids have--just like are other pets.
A death of a fish in our family would be like the death of a member;)

[Rae C.]

Cap'n, I have no sump. Just a hang-on-back fuge of maybe 5 gallons and a HOB skimmer.

[Rae C.]

Oh Yeah, do i need to feed the tank if there are no fish in it?

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15359651#post15359651 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rae C.
Oh Yeah, do i need to feed the tank if there are no fish in it?

No not for the present time.