Question about Hypo QT and TWO tanks

[goldmaniac]

Hello all -

ok, here's what I'm doing:

My display tank is currently ich-free and I want to keep it that way, so i've been QT'ing any fish I buy in a hyposalinity treatment (1.008-1.009 salinity) for 4-6 weeks.

The problem lies in that I can't really buy more fish while my QT is at such a low salinity. I have to wait until fish #1 is safe, and then raise salinity or remove water and start over with 1.024 saltwater and begin lowering again.

So i set up a SECOND QT tank and my intention is to use the smaller QT tank to adjust the fish from 1.024 down to 1.008-9 salinity over 7-10 days' time, and then transfer the fish into the 2nd QT tank for the 4+ weeks.

MY QUESTION:

If I add a 2nd fish (adjusted to 1.008) from the 'adjustment' QT tank into the larger QT tank with a fish already in there, does that reset the 4-week quarantine time for the 1st fish?

I'm hoping I can just keep adding fish to the larger QT tank and record when the went in there, and remove after 4-6 weeks. Sort of like a revolving-door type of QT'ing. Each fish would get a month-plus of hypo, but would they cross-contaminate in 1.008 salinity?

I bet i'm missing something.

And I am also guessing i'm not being clear for everyone. Please ask me to clarify if i'm not doing a good job of describing what I'm thinking about.

Thanks in advance,

G.

[boilermaker1]

If you add a fish to the first tank, you'd need to start the clock over. You'd be exposing the first fish to anything the second fish has, therefore requiring you to re-run the first one the full term again.
Either put more than one fish in simulaneously, or run the 2 fish separately.

[goldmaniac]

So you think that the Ich can survive in the 1.008 long enough to re-attach to the other fish?

Remember, Fish One is also coming from 1.008-9. I know that cysts fall off a fish, but those usually are fallow for 48+ hours before ready to reattach, and from what I understand, that's too long for ich to survive. But what do I know -

I appreciate your answer and consider it thoroughly.

Anyone else?

[goldmaniac]

I appreciate your answer and *will* consider it thoroughly.

[Gwynhidwy]

I agree with Boilermaker1. Is it likely? No. But, you're going through all this trouble to have a disease free system, so is it worth the chance?

If you are sure the fish going into the larger QT is parasite free and unable to infect the other fish already in the QT, why not just move him/her directly to the DT?

[sikpupy]

As much as I want to belive it can be done, and being one going on round to of ich and hypo, logic would say why chance it?

[Macimage]

Whenever you add a new fish to qt, you should start the time period over again.

Joyce

[jayk198030]

i agree with all the above...

Why move one fish from a QT tank to a larger QT?

I use 3x 10g tanks and a 20g tank for QT's

the fish will be fine in a small tank until you know its disease free and eating good

[tmz]

1.008 is the estimated internal salinity of marine fish. you are cutting it very close. 1.009 is close enough.

There is no need to acclimate down for a week to 10 days . If you are putting the fish into water that is above it's internal salinity (1.008) there is no stress to the fish. It just stops drinking and passing concentrated urine. Taking that long may help the parasite adjust to the lower sg. It will also give time for the cysts to decyst and spawn a secondary infestation with each encysted parasite producing 200 to 300 free swimmers. . A hypotonic barrier at 1.009 should kill free swimming parasites from a new resident. The problem I have had with hypo is that it is not always effective since there are many resistant strains of crytocaryon irritans.

If you are using two or more tanks why not consider the tank transfer method ? Move the fish every three days to a new clean tank for a total of 4 transfers. Insure the tank and all wet equipment is cleaned and dried after each occupancy or left to soak in fresh water for at least 3 hours. Much faster and completely effective. All the parsites leave the fish during this process and are left behind before they can encyst,decyst and reinfect. With only a 3 day stay ammonia buildup issues are minimal but still warrant monitoring.

[goldmaniac]

ok, everyone is saying not to do it, don't take the chance, but I am stubborn and I am very curious as to WHY this couldn't be done, in theory at least. WHY and HOW can there be reinfection?

I don't even have a 2nd fish purchased, I'm being a good boy and doing research before even thinking of doing this, and RC members are my biggest resource for these ideas. So please be kind.

<b>TMZ</b>: I was reducing salinity only two or three points per day from the starting 1.025. you know, 1.025 --> 1.022 on day one, 1.022 --> 1.019 on Day Two, etc.

How quickly is it safe to lower salinity? It sounds like you don't think moving that slowly is necessary.

[goldmaniac]

double post

[NexDog]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15361200#post15361200 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
The problem I have had with hypo is that it is not always effective since there are many resistant strains of crytocaryon irritans.

I don't believe this to be true unless this lifeform has evolved a new cell structure within the last few years. Darwin would be impressed. Something can become resistant to drugs quickly but not how its body reacts to its environment. Hypo kills what it kills with no questions asked. Otherwise you might as well say humans can become "resistant" to living on Mars with its lack of oxygen.

[tmz]

Metaphysics aside, some strains of crytocaryon irritans tolerate hyposlainity. Wether the encysted parasites slow down or they have a broader range of tolerance due to exposure to esturaries and run off or are from natural environments with lower sgs. The plain truth is that they sometimes reemerge when the salinity is readjusted north of 1.020 or so even after a 6 week hypo treatment at 1.009. this has been my experience and the experience of many others.

[Gwynhidwy]

Unfortunately for all of us, there are strains of Cryptocaryon irritans that are not only tolerant of hyposalinity of 1.009, but that will in fact survive in lower salinity than marine fish.

"Highly aberrant strains have recently been found thriving in hyposaline environments in Taiwan (Yambot et al., 2003)." taken from:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm

To the OP, if you are bound and determined to place possibly infected fish in with fish that are near the end of their quarantine/treatment and risk reinfection, then by all means do so and hopefully that will work well for you. In the end, it really comes down to if you think it is an acceptable risk.

[goldmaniac]

I've heard this too, and I don't doubt that there's strains that are highly tolerant of salinity. I think that there must be some cases of bad methodology or bad salinity readings allowing ich to survive, but I doubt that EVERYONE is not lowering to sufficient salinities.

Sounds like Copper or Transfer method is the only way to be 100%, but I killed two tangs on two separate attempts with copper. Kept Cu a below the .5 threshold, or whatever the suggested "five" threshold is. I forget if .05 or .5 , but my point is that Cu can be a failure, too.

QT is such a PIA. A necessary evil.

[Gwynhidwy]

Certainly improper monitoring and dosage/levels can cause problems with hyposalinity, or virtually any treatment, but I believe that is much more of a common occurrence with hobby aquarists than it is in situations where people are specifically studying an organism's hyposalinity tolerance, as is the case in the source that I sited.

FWIW, I treat with Cupramine, it seems to be tolerated much better than other copper based meds. Obviously you have to test to get the correct concentration, but since the copper in Cupramine is a bound form, it is important to use a test that detects free AND bound forms. Seachem's test does.

I have had much better success with fish by making sure they are eating well prior to treatment.

Many people have suggested that tangs are more susceptible to problems from copper based treatments due to their intestinal flora. However, many people successfully treat their tangs with a variety of copper medications with no apparent ill effects. I would suggest that fluctuating levels of copper, general stress, or other commonly seen quarantine problems are more likely to blame. Keep in mind that virtually any treatment is an added stress on the body and the fish that we see in the hobby are usually very stressed by the time we get them. Whenever possible I hold off on treating a fish until they are eating and otherwise behaving normally and I no longer treat prophylactically with anything other than Prazipro.

NEVER combine copper treatment with hyposalinity!

There are very few sure things in life, and medical treatment is not one of them. QT may be a PIA, but not doing it is usually much more so.

[tmz]

Lowering salinity quickly does not harm the fish.

Marine fish work hard to maintain an internal salinity of 1.008. They are hypotonic; their internal salinity is lower than the water surrounding them. They have evolved an ability to osmoregulate by drinking copious amounts of water and passing very concentrated urine in order to maintain hydration. Their kidneys and other internal organs and processes are geared to this condition. If they couldn't do this they would pickle as the fluids in their body would equilibrate via diffusion with the water around them. Consequently their internal salinity would rise to the level of the water around them (1.0264 ,general nsw value). This would make it impossible for them to maintain homeostasis and disrupt their body chemistry resulting in death.

Likewise, if the water around them is lower than their internal sg ( around 1.008), water will diffuse into them and bloat them. They have no ability to osmoregulate to combat this condition which will also disrupt homeostasis and lead to death.However, no water will diffuse into them unless the sg of the water is below their internal sg(1.008) . So when sg is dropped ,the fish simply has less work to do . Drinks less and urinates less. No stress is involved. So a rapid drop will not harm them as long as it is no lower than 1.009. Longterm exposure to low sg may, however, cause some atrophy in the kidneys.

Invertebrates inlcuding the parasite crytocaryon irritans are isontonic ; their internal sg is the same as the water around them.Drops or rises in sg if they exceed the range of tolerance for the particular strain will disrupt homeostasis and lead to death.

In contrast, when sg is adjusted upward the fish has to work hard to readjust to drinking and processing more concentrated urine. This can be very stressful, particularly when the kidneys have not been doing very much during a 6 week hypo exposure. Upward adjustments should be limited, in my opinion, to .001 or .002 per day.

Many use a two day period to adjust sg downward to minimize the effects of hyposlainity on bacterial colonies but the fish don't need that time.

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15358298#post15358298 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by boilermaker1
If you add a fish to the first tank, you'd need to start the clock over. You'd be exposing the first fish to anything the second fish has, therefore requiring you to re-run the first one the full term again.
Either put more than one fish in simulaneously, or run the 2 fish separately.

I agree.

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15368088#post15368088 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
Metaphysics aside, some strains of crytocaryon irritans tolerate hyposlainity. Wether the encysted parasites slow down or they have a broader range of tolerance due to exposure to esturaries and run off or are from natural environments with lower sgs. The plain truth is that they sometimes reemerge when the salinity is readjusted north of 1.020 or so even after a 6 week hypo treatment at 1.009. this has been my experience and the experience of many others.

I also agree with this. My process is to observe in quarantine at normal salinity (hopefully you are using a refractometer to measure that) and treat ONLY if required (flukes, cryptocaryon, or whatever). But if I treat, I do not treat with hypo.

[snorvich]

Gwynhidwy's caveat about copper and hyposalinity is critical.

[tmz]

Gwyhidwy,
I also prefer cupramine when using copper. Thanks for the link. FWIW I test sg with a salinity monitor cross checked with a refractometer.

[goldmaniac]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15368102#post15368102 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gwynhidwy
To the OP, if you are bound and determined to place possibly infected fish in with fish that are near the end of their quarantine/treatment and risk reinfection, then by all means do so and hopefully that will work well for you. In the end, it really comes down to if you think it is an acceptable risk.

I'm not 'bound and determined', I'm looking for a reason for the answers I'm getting, that's all. This is the Internets. Lots of posters with opinions that are just that, opinions. I'm looking for science behind the advice.

As for my acceptable risk, i don't want one. I want to do all i can to keep my display tank ich-free. I have run a fish-less tank for 4 months to do this and that's no fun. But nobody has given me a reason why I shouldn't do what I thought about.

I'm just asking for 2nd opinions on my idea of QT'ing multiple fish at once, and the reasoning behind the opinions. I'm trying to be thorough.

hey - this is how progress and advancement is made in this hobby. Dismissal of a 'new' idea of mine hinders any chance of evolution of the hobby.

Nobody would have guessed that bryopsis is eliminated with a magnesium reading of 1500, or that Mr. Clean Magic Erasers are great for cleaning/buffing the inside of acrylic display tanks (i have glass, i cannot attest to this).

\ the first time i heard about supergluing zoas or SPS to rocks, i thought that was dangerous, too.

\\ or that vodka dosing works

\\\ I made my own live rock with portland cement and water softening salt

all of this is from people sharing crazy ideas

G.

[tmz]

Adding a second fish to the qt may introduce a restistant strain of crytocaryon irritans . It may also introduce other pathenogens that do not respond to hypo such as velvet ( amyloodinium, brooklynella or flukes) which could infest the first fish unobserved without a proper observation period.

[NexDog]

I had no idea there was a proven form of hypo tolerant crypto. This is quite a shock for me. So far hypo has worked for me without fail. In 4 years I've never seen Ich in my DT and the only fish I've lost to disease was an Emp Angel to a swim bladder infection. So I hope I continue to be lucky.

[tmz]

Hypo is a proven treatment; but not foolproof. I hope it continues to work for you and others. I don't prefer it because of the length of time and the razor thin margin for error between 1.009 and 1.008. I have also had ich reappear after 6 weeks of treatment on more than one occasion.

[NexDog]

I also wasn't aware that dropping to 1.008 could cause damage to a fish. I'm sure I've killed a few due to this then. :(

For you is Copper the best solution?

I just hate water testing and also innaccurate testing kits. Found it easier to test water with refractometer. :)

[Macimage]

Originally posted by goldmaniac

Nobody would have guessed that bryopsis is eliminated with a magnesium reading of 1500, or that Mr. Clean Magic Erasers are great for cleaning/buffing the inside of acrylic display tanks (i have glass, i cannot attest to this).



The Magic Eraser works great on Acrylic and Glass:)!!

Joyce

[tmz]

I think 1.009 is chosen for hypo because it is simply as low as you can go and would best strain the parasites tolerance without harming the fish. 1.008 is the genrally stated internal sg for marine fish. Think about it if 1.009 was completely effective in killing free swimming parasites ,why would it take 6 weeks to do it vs 14 with copper? Marine fish can tolerate even lower salinity for short periods such as with fresh water dips. Long term it will kill them.

I don't love copper but use it. Cupramine since it is a bound copper makes it easier to maintain a therapuetic dose.

I'm more inclined to use tank transfer ;med free and effective , more like nature but it is labor intensive. Four tank fill ups, drains, drys or soaks with fresh water and captures. Certainly better for the fish than either hypo or copper if they are captured gently and water parameters from transfer to transfer is closely matched.

[NexDog]

I took a bit of a break from RC so this tank transfer thing is a new concept for me. Anywhere I can read about the full process?

[tmz]

It may be in the ich sticky at the top of the mew to the hobby forum. I'd do a quick search but that function is down right now.

Here it is in a nutshell: 4 transfers, one every three days. This rate of exchange insures all parasites have left the fish and no encysted parasites have enough time to reinfect . Actually it can be done with three transfers but the fourth is insurance.

Tank and all wet equipment must be rinsed and thoroughly dried after each occupancy before refilling and reoccupying . Alternatively, tank and all wet equipment may be left to soak in fresh water for a minimum of 3 hours. The complete dryness or 3hour fresh water bath will destroy any encysted parasites clinging to tank or equipment surfaces.

[NexDog]

Hmmm, pretty intensive. Think I'll stick to hypo. :)

[reevesymj]

Has anyone had Ich in a large display? 4 weeks ago I added 2 new yellows and the nightmare started. With copper not an option and removing all the rock to catch my 30 fish with a 14" cube not an option either I removed all the inverts and went hpo. I took a week to get there because I didn't know it wouldn't stress the fish to go quicker. The first week and a half I tried dosing with Myxazin with no success. I lost 12 great fish but none for the past 3 days. The survivors are all eating and swimming normally and most appear unaffected. I am at 1.012sg at the moment planning to arrive at 1.010 tomorrow and stop. What long term affect will this have on my LR and sand and can it eventually make a full recovery. Plan is to stay hypo for 6 weeks. Maybe I should have started another thread but everyone is here and my problem is so closely related to this thread I thought my experience and the advice I get might benefit us all. Any advice appreciated. Will remove to another thread if suggested.

[NexDog]

I have a few chunks of LR in my QT that I pulled out the DT. I hypo'd them on a QT cycle and after 2 weeks was when the hyposalinity seemed to kill off the invert lifeforms living in the LR. The amount of stuff that came out just a few chunks was incredible. I'm sure your 250g has at least 100kg of LR - maybe more. I think hypo'ing all that will effective kill the rest of your fish with a huge ammonia spike. But that's just my opinion.

[reevesymj]

I've got about 160kg of LR. That's the first time I have considered this and thanks for raising it. If that's the likely outcome, I'm in a spot of bother because I will need to relocate the remaining fish into low SG water. Any other opinions or ideas anyone?

[reevesymj]

Whatabout if I start removing the LR? You think that might save me?

[reevesymj]

In a state of panic now. I've noticed significant browning off on the rocks today and yesterday, but just perfomed an ammonia test, negligable. Could it be that bringing the SG down slowly over the last week could be killing of organisms slowly & steadily enough for my skimmer to cope? or is it the calm before the storm?

[NexDog]

Get a fish trap. Every aquarist should have one on stand-by in case they need to remove fish. I had to catch my female clarki clownfish with a net in each hand and it was really, really hard and took about 30 minutes each time and the third time I just gave up (this was due to aquascaping and the female biting me). It's one fish that will never enter a fish trap.

But saying that there are other fish that can't be caught in traps like dwarf angels and anthias. If I had to remove all my fish I think it just wouldn't be possible. I have 20 now and plan for upwards of 40. Where would they all go? If I got an Ich outbreak I think I'd just make the conditions as peaceful as possible. Hence my QT regime is super tough. If the fish survive their first two weeks with me they last years and the only fish I've lost to disease is an Emp Angel with a swim bladder infection. Lost others due to jumping but have netted covers now (only took 4 years).

So you have 18 fish left. If you have a QT big enough then try and catch them but anything less than a 120g is probably going to kill them anyway. Tough choices to make, my friend.

[tmz]

The nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria should adjust well to the reduced sg since you have moved down slowly. Taking a bit of time for downward adjustment in the display makes sense.

I would siphon or blow out and siphon off whatever detritus I could, monitor ammonia closely and keep some Amquell or a similar ammonia detoxfier on hand in case of a spike.

[NexDog]

When I hypo'd my chunks of LR it seemed the die-off happened within 12 hours. Almost as if the hypo killed all the organisms at the same time. There has to be a time scale of when hypo kills something and if organisms are similar then I would assume they would all die within a similar timefame. Can't remember exactly but was 10 to 14 days.

[reevesymj]

I'noticed today that one small sea urchin was dead and saw another still looking very much alive. That is at SG 1.012. Yesterday was at 1.014 so am now obviously in the range where organisms are dying off. (Ich too I hope) My LR is not heavily grown. Torn between your suggestion of getting everybody out of Dodge and Tom's , which when considering it will probably require me removing my LR to get to my fish and then accessing a suitable QT might be more than I can manage. Another option is I have a good friend an hour away who owns an LFS. He already has my inverts, might see if he can set me up a 5ft QT

[NexDog]

Some pics would be nice to document this event. :)

[reevesymj]

Yeah. Almost midnight here now so will take some tomorrow. Have already removed corals ect, but i'll post before and after. My big tangs, Dussumier and Vlamingii and two of my 5 yellows won't be in the after pics. Nor will my Singapore angel, royal dottyback or any of my clowns unfortunately. If I can convince my friend to move a tank to 1.010sg I think I'll pull my display down tomorrow, remove the fish and keep it fallow for 6 weeks. A big IF though I fear. Otherwise I'll take Tom's advice and cross my fingers. Thanks for waking me up to the probability of a spike. I can't believe I hadn't thought of it.

[goldmaniac]

It is VERY difficult to rid a display tank of ich without removing all fish. This is why i'm going through such an elaborate QT for ich.

I had my first major ich die-off in my 9 years of this hobby in April 2008. By the end of the summer, with only 3 fish in my 120 gal tank, I decided to pull them out, and let the display tank go fish-less for a couple of months to wipe out the ich. I think that is the safest way to do it.

it's a serious pain, however, to keep fish in QT for this long. but now that I'm there, I'm doing everything I can to keep it ich-free.

I would be concerned about your live rock and live sand and pod population and bristleworms, etc, with low salinity in the display tank. and the die-off might kill your fish. I truly with you Good Luck.