any small calcium reactors on the market?

[jennibee13]

when i set my tank up 5 yrs ago, i figured i didnt have room for a calcium reactor so i didnt set one up................needless to say i lost 2k worth of coral due to chronic low ph, had i known..........

my house is always closed with central air or heat, rarely open, so co2 builds and my ph is 7.7 in morn and 7.9 peak........fish and anemones seem unaffected but.............i thought id take some pics and maybe there is something i can do

ive tried the dripping kalk, it just cant keep up


heres what space i have, on the left of my sump, it measures 7.5" by 21"


http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/261/p7160001.jpg (http://img39.imageshack.us/i/p7160001.jpg/)

[jennibee13]

i found this

http://www.lifereef.com/calcium.html

[jtma508]

Jenni... I have a 90gal bowfront. Which means I have very shallow space on the ends of the under-cabinet. I'm running a Korallin 1502 which has a footprint of 6.5" I have to use a pretty small (2.5lb) CO2 tank to fit in there but it all works for me. 21" front to back would be heaven in my setup.

[jennibee13]

is this a calcium or kalk reactor, being my ph is so low im assuming a kalk reactor wouldnt get it done?

i assume all you need to do is plumb an intake and return to sump? can this be done over the top with a 90 for the intake?

[jennibee13]

i see http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~action~view~idProduct~KTKLCP2~idCategory~FICRCPWC~category~With_CO2_Tank-Reactor_Packages-Calcium_Reactors-Saltwater_Aquarium_Supplies~vendor~.html

[jimsflies]

A calcium reactor isn't going to help with the pH issue you are having. If anything, it could make your display pH lower due to any excess CO2 from the reactor.

Kalk is your best bet. A kalk reactor will help assure fresh kalkwasser is delivered to your tank. Although, I will say after having chased my tail on this for a couple years, if your corals look happy then I wouldn't worry about it.

[jennibee13]

nope, all my corals died a slow death , took a couple years , from the low ph...................like i said i was dosing esv via kent aquadose, it seems to have a minimal effect.............a reactor would use the same powder and does much better?

[nanojg]

I thought calcium reactors normally lowed ph?

[jennibee13]

not sure how these work, say i were to buy this one

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=GEO-KALK618&Category_Code=creactor


the spout on the side is to drain water into container to mix kalk, then pour that into port on top, i assume with a funnel.............my guess is you would plumb out the top into the sump for feed?

how do you put fresh water in? i dont have a dosing or fresh water feed, i add 2 gals a day manually now since i didnt have room for a fresh water feed..............


also, how would you adjust how much its adding? i assume youd need some sort of a ph controller?

[jennibee13]

the rpoblem with the drip method is i would have to add above and beyond what the tank evaporates per day in order to achieve 8.2-8.4.................i would need a steady stream, its just not possible, should i try making the kalk more potent? say 4 tsp per gallon instead of 2?

[snorvich]

What are you measuring your pH with?

[jtma508]

Something's not right here. I think this goes beyond a need for a Ca reactor. Can you give us a run down of your tank parameters (NO3, Ca, Alk, Mg, PO4). Properly setup, a Ca reactor will have little downward effect on a correctly buffered tank's pH. A kalk reactor will most definitely raise the pH (and add Ca) but do nothing for the Alk or Mg.

Let us know what your paramaters are and maybe we can get a better picture of what is going on.

[jennibee13]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15368551#post15368551 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
What are you measuring your pH with?

pinpoint probe , you can see monitor in pic

calibrated every month with 7 and 10 fluid

[jennibee13]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15368592#post15368592 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtma508
Something's not right here. I think this goes beyond a need for a Ca reactor. Can you give us a run down of your tank parameters (NO3, Ca, Alk, Mg, PO4). Properly setup, a Ca reactor will have little downward effect on a correctly buffered tank's pH. A kalk reactor will most definitely raise the pH (and add Ca) but do nothing for the Alk or Mg.

Let us know what your paramaters are and maybe we can get a better picture of what is going on.

checked yest , and once a week

cal-410

alk-7.2 (i try to keep it at 8.0 with bionic)

mag-1320

ill check nitrate now, i dont have a phos test kit


when i let the kalk run to bring water level up the ph def comes up, but drops right back down.............like i said, a drip just cant keep up

and i do 25% changes once a month, i really dont think its my para, i think its just having 2 dogs and 2 birds in a small closed up house makes the co2 skyrocket

[jennibee13]

i should add, im running 50mg ozone as well

i have a fuge with chaeto , and a deep sand bed, which, if i had to do it over again i wouldnt do

[jennibee13]

no3 = 10ppm id bet the dsb is the cause

should i purchase a phos kit at this point? im thinking my chaeto keeps them under control

[jtma508]

Phosphate will definitely impact corals --- especially SPS. Your params look good although you'd like to have your Alk up around 9.0. That's where a good deal of your pH buffering comes from. Have you considered doing more frequent water changes?

[jennibee13]

i have to be honest, ive neglected the tank due to surgery, breakup, etc.........personal life crap..........ive lost all corals, every one...............its become over run with aiptasia (im waiting on burghia)................id be embarrassed to post a pic..........but thru it all my 3 anemones and my fish seem to be doing ok, ive had most since the beginning(6 yrs)

my nitrates are a tad high, i just thru in a filter sock with some carbon(and was reading about vodka but i dont think im that high)....................yes i could start doing bi weekly changes....................but, id really like to address the ph if i can in any way, a kalk drip just doesnt seem to impact the level albeit maybe .05

[jennibee13]

i also have bionic, i was just reading the bottle, it says alk should be kept between 8.4-10.5 dk..................would i be better off shooting for the 10 range ? would that help my ph?

[jtma508]

10ppm isn't a catastrophe as far as NO3 goes and the carbon won't do anything about it anyway. It will suck-up organics if they're in there.

Your Alk being on the low side will contribute to your pH problem. You want to get it up to 9-10. Have you considered raising your pH using Kalk and then adding a pH buffer to stabilize the pH? It seems like the chemical buffers have been depleted from your system. And the frequent water changes will help alot for sure.

BTW, hang in there. Things DO get better. Many of us have been through what you're going through.

[jennibee13]

i just thru the carbon in there cuz i had it, long term use is no good.................im going to get a phos kit, some phosban some socks more bionic......................would you recommend anything for nitrate removal? i was looking at this http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4136+10473+4180&pcatid=4180


and whats your thoughts on phosban?

[jtma508]

Nitrate will come down through water changes. I'd be reluctant to add anything else until you get the sitautaion stabilized. The more stuff you throw in there the more variables you are introducing. You can't just throw phosban in a sock and have it work. You need a reactor for decent results. But first, you should establish that you need phosban before spending your money. Go slowly, one issue at a time.

Remember the reefer's motto: "Only bad things happen quickly"

[jennibee13]

yeah, i know that motto, ok then..............more bionic (i hadnt been dosing this everyday like i was in the beginning, i drifted off track)

phos test kit....................bi weekly changes, ill go from there and probably resurrect this at some point..............maybe with the phos results, ty for your help

[jtma508]

NP. Glad to help. Not to make this more work for you... but how about weekly water changes? At least for awhile until things stabilize. Then you can see if you can go longer.

[jennibee13]

is that right? 25 gals like i was doing once a month?

[jtma508]

10-20% so 25gal would be a nice change in your system (150gal total, right?).

[jennibee13]

its a 120 tank with 30 sump but with displacement im guessing round 110 g

[jtma508]

well, the 25gal would be awesome but if you'd like to scale it back a bit do 20gal changes. Your nitrates will come down quickly and I think you'll see your pH problem resolve itself as well. If not, the pH buffer (after you get it where you want it) wouild be my approach.

[jennibee13]

it says 1 ml per 4 gals , so 30ml every morning or should i up it?

not sure how changes and 30ml of buffer is gonna get me from 7.8 chronically to 8.2 steady but im willing to try

[jtma508]

Nope. Follow the directions. But remember, before you buffer it raise it with Kalk to where it is supposed to be. A buffer just helps 'lock' the pH.

[nanojg]

be careful with buffers, you alk will go sky high.

[jennibee13]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15370251#post15370251 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtma508
Nope. Follow the directions. But remember, before you buffer it raise it with Kalk to where it is supposed to be. A buffer just helps 'lock' the pH.

im not sure how you would go about rasing it with kalk, like i said, i can only dose 2 gals a day, thats all i evaporate, and that does nothing, it drops right back down

[jennibee13]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15370328#post15370328 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nanojg
be careful with buffers, you alk will go sky high.

i know, ill keep an eye on it

[MSX-Jeff]

If you believe your low Ph is from elevated CO2 levels in your house, your best bet is going to be to run a line from outside to your air intake on your skimmer. I'm really surprised that no one has mentioned this sooner.

Your skimmer is an oxygenator as well as a filtration device...but if there is low O2 in the house, the skimmer iwll not be able to get as much O2 into the water. When you run your line, make sure it is at least 1 size larger than your skimmers airline, that way you will not kill your air draw from frictional flow loss. I would use 1/2" line at minimum for an external run.

[jennibee13]

i had this in the beginning, but when it was 12 degrees outside my heaters were working overtime,...............i was only using the standard airline thats on the pump, what is that 1/4" ?

and what do you mean bigger than the skimmers airline? there is only one air intake, you would still have to neck it down to pumps intake size no?

isnt my ozone putting o2 into system? i guess not enuff?

[jennibee13]

ok, i re ran the one intake tube outside, im using standard size airline, i have a vacuum line t one is from outside and one is from the ozone..................somethin i just thought of tho, should the ozone be pulling from outside as well? or can it compensate for the co2 in my living room air?


im using an older euroreef cs6-3 btw

[jtma508]

Jeff is making a good point IF your house really has high CO2. But even when the windows are open in the summer? Unlikely. Also, depending upon how far you have to run that airline it could pose a problem for your skimmer. A short run would be OK. He's suggesting using an air supply line of a diameter AT LEAST one size larger than the airline yoru skimmer uses. The bigger the better and then reduce it to whatever your skimmer air intake uses.

Yes, ozone definitely adds O2 to the water. How are you introducing it (skimmer I hope) and are you controlling/monitoring ORP??? But keep in mind, adding O2 isn't the same thing as reducing CO2. You can add O2 but the CO2 will still be getting added. CO2 dissolved in the water will create an acid (which is how Ca reactors work) thus lowering pH.

[jennibee13]

like i said, i did this in the beginning when i was battling this, it didnt seem to have any effect , but, i will see now if it does, so far my ph hasnt budged after running line, its a short run , 1.5' maybe....................

when my windows are open my ph is normal, but, thats rare, its either central air or heat.............spring fall maybe

so your saying the line im running outside has to be twice as big as the skimmer line? do they even make air tube that big?

yes, ozone is "teed" into skimmer intake.......i monitor the orp via orp monitor you can see on my pic, center one, its always good 300-350................i keep it on 50mg steady, im using a red sea

so do you think running a line for the ozone intake would do anything? id have to drill another hole thru outside wall, rather not unless it will def help

[jtma508]

I wouldn't worry about the ozone feed. If it wasn't making enough you'd see you ORP drop and you could just dial it up a bit. make sure you routinely clean your ORP probe with a wet toothbrush or it will read artificially high.

You don't need to use airline tubing for your outside airline. There's all kinds of tubing available and just about anything will work. You just need to be able to reduce it down to the size you need for your skimmer. Everything you need can be found at Lowes or Home Depot. The idea is to provide the biggest practical diameter so your skimmer isn't having to work to pull in the air. With such a short run it shouldn't be an issue.

With everything you've said, it seems you do have CO2 in your air contributing but I still think the underlying problem is some biological process in your tank environment --- especially since you said you tried the outside air without success already.

" Long-term changes in water quality due to biological activity typically cause a decline in alkalinity and lower pH values. If the alkalinity is low, the pH may not reach the range of 8.1 - 8.4 during the day. " TLF

It seems your system may have lost its buffer. Possibly because of a depletion in carbonate. Hence your low Alk. If you can raise your pH with kalk to a desirable range and then add a buffer you may be able to restabilize your tank chemistry.

[jtma508]

Also... from the picture you have a HUGE amount of cheato in your fuge. What light cycle is it on? Plants as you know release CO2 in the dark.

[jennibee13]

yeah, i clean the orp monthly ..................my chaeto is on opposite cycle of tank lights...............i ran tube outside, i added bionic yest and today as well as dosing kalk via drip continuously...........ph is unchanged, its sitting at 7.87 right now, it goes to 8.4 when dosing bionic but drops right back down, same with kalk, a steady stream , 8.4, a drip , seems non exsistent.............im going to check calc and alk in a few minutes.............ill do a water change tomm, had to make water.........

[jtma508]

Another thing I'd do Jenni would be to harvest a good hunk of that cheato and get rid of it. You don't need that much in there. Also, put your fuge on a 24hr light cycle. Just as an experiment. When the fuge goes dark the cheator (and any other photosynthetic organisms) are going to be releasing CO2 into the water. Keep them lit and they'll absorb CO2. My cheato does fine under 24hr cycle. Lots of people do that.

[jennibee13]

ok, ill ditch half and turn lights on, heres my reading today

temp-80.4

orp-322

calc-445

alk-10.4

ph-7.87

so raising alk did nothing

[jennibee13]

ya know, this tank is 6 yrs old, and ive only had to halve that chaeto once, does that sound right? and are you supposed to rinse chaeto in anyway?

im sure detritus and junk build up in it? cuz when i move it around my tank gets pretty cloudy

[jtma508]

No. I think you misunderstood. The low alk isn't the cause of the problem it's a related symptom. Alk measures carbonate in the water (which creatures use up). It's also half of the carbonate-bicarbonate pH buffer system that is in your tank. It would seem that something is screwing-up that chemical equilibrium and as a result alk is going down along with pH.

[jennibee13]

well, im stumped as to what it is, im doing everything right it seems, unless my dsb is the culprit? i never touch it

[jtma508]

I'm surprised it's growing so slowly. You need to trim it (like any plant) from time to time to keep it growing. And yea, alaot of stuff grows in it. I shake it out from time-to-time in the fuge to let all the tasty critters find their way into the DT.

[jtma508]

Don't disturb the DSB. Your Ca is on the high side now so I'd wait till it comes down, bring the pH up with kalk and go the pH buffer route.

[jennibee13]

yeah, when i was learning, i always read dont touch the dsb

[jennibee13]

readings after todays 25g change

temp-81

orp-329

ph-7.92

calc-435

alk-10.9

mag-1320

nitrates-10


i find it interesting that after a 25g change, my alk went up while no3 stayed the same.................im going to stop the bionic , let alk come down a bit, continue to does kalk, ph came up slightly.......im testing same time of day as well


ill post readings again on wensday including phos

[MSX-Jeff]

Looks like the Ph is starting to come up :)

[bergzy]

Low pH (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php)

excerpts:

#

Aerating the water with "normal air," driving out the excess carbon dioxide, will move the aquarium parameters along the green line of Figure 3, raising pH to just over pH 8.3. This effect is also what would happen if the growth of macroalgae were used to absorb some of the excess carbon dioxide, although it is rare for that effect to be able to move it all the way along the green line to above pH 8.3.
#

Raising the alkalinity, even if it still has the "excess CO2" in it, will raise pH by moving the aquarium parameters along the green line in Figure 4, to a pH of about 8.1 at an alkalinity of 4.5 meq/L (12.6 dKH).
#

Using limewater (kalkwasser) to deplete the excess CO2 (to normal levels), and also to raise the alkalinity (to 4 meq/L) could move the curve along the green line in Figure 5, resulting in a pH over 8.4 and an alkalinity of 4 meq/L (11.2 dKH).

sooo...

after these tasty tidbits....from my experience...i have found that a ca reactor should be more correctly be termed alk reactor/generator. a calcium reactor is a great way to release alkalinity with its happy calcium ion counterpart following. thus, i have my ca reactor to reach a correct alk level with ca to follow.

occasional manual tweaks to ca or alk is recommended but overall, a ca reactor is a great way to supplement ca and alk in a pretty balanced manner. dripping alk wouldnt hurt but i found it unnecessary (for me).

to deal with any residual co2 in the ca reactor effluent...i place an airstone (with a lot of air going through it) right underneath the drip.

cracking open a window does help with lowering co2 levels and elevating pH levels...and besides, fresh air is good for ones well being and overall feeling of happiness. look at that: helpful in tank and life! call me dr bergz (as opposed to dr phil)!!!:D

[jennibee13]

an alk of 12.6?! so should i push the alk ? 10.6 seemed high to me

[bergzy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15381917#post15381917 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jennibee13
an alk of 12.6?! so should i push the alk ? 10.6 seemed high to me

pH is a common concern thread.

what i was trying to convey was that there are different ways to elevate your pH. use good judgment and do things SLOWLY.

there is nothing but problems with doing anything fast...reef and life included.

in reality, pH readings are more than fine at 7.8. our tanks are not the ocean and i have seen beautiful tanks with pH's that low.

if i choose to deal with low pH problems, my first would be to aerate with outside air to drive out co2. if that doesnt seem to do much, then adding chemicals are on my later to do list. then the next thing i do is titrate seachems reef builder or seachem reef buffer.

yes, you can make your own balanced buffer additive blah blah blah...but some people just dont have the time or see the time worthwhile to make buffer.

get your alk to a range your tank is comfortable with which can range from 7.5 to 10.5 for a lot of reefers. thus, daily observations of your tank is important to see trends. no two tanks are alike.

12.6 dKH is high imo as well. i usually keep mine at 8.3.

good luck!

[jennibee13]

well, yest morn i opened house, ph got up to 8.18..........but overnight with house closed again 7.94.............readings tomm

[bergzy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15388908#post15388908 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jennibee13
well, yest morn i opened house, ph got up to 8.18..........but overnight with house closed again 7.94.............readings tomm

a 0.2 swing is pretty typical and normal in the day/night cycle.

this sounds pretty okay to me. heck, you have better pH differentials than my tanks right now. i used to chase numbers as well but now i just let it be as long as the tank inhabitants are happy, healthy and thriving.