Garlic vs Ich

[Ken_wied]

I've been seeing that people are dosing garlic additives (garlic extreme etc) to combat ich infestations in the aquariums. Does anyone know anything about this or is it a myth? Just to fulfill my own curiosity :)

Thanks!!!

[Andrew]

"Garlic What has been studied Versus what has been claimed" By Steven Pro

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php

[gooyferret]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15372118#post15372118 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Andrew
"Garlic What has been studied Versus what has been claimed" By Steven Pro

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php

Andrew do you know if he ever did controlled tests with garlic and the results? When was his article written?

Personally IMO his article is an opinion just like anyone elses one here with no concrete proof. The garlic extracts or at least Kent Garlic Xtreme dont say anything on preventing/curing Ich, on the bottle, only that its a Attractant and food supplement.

My opinion:
Does it hurt anything to add garlic? NO Is it expensive compared to anything in this hobby? No Very cheap $8 and lasts 6-12 months. Is it proven to kill Ich? No

Does it help? Well it sure cant hurt! Also a fish that is eating is far more likely to survive and have a more healthy immune system. If a fish has Ich and is not eating then you have a problem. As the Ich feeds off the fish for its reproductive cycle will only weaken the fish more. The fish needs that food and energy to fight off the next "wave" of ich.

I have always used garlic on my food, and always have. Not because of a "myth" but having sucess with it. Always used the same brand Kent garlic extreme. I bought an orange sholder tang a long time ago that was completely covered in ich. I purchased him that way on purpose. (very cheap) :) Since I didnt have any other fish in my DT I added him, and only fed flake with garlic, and seaweed sheets. He complete recovered from ich about 2 weeks after and never got it again. None of the other fish later added got ich also.

As a side note: If a research facility or Seaworld is going to spend $1,000's if not more on researching garlic, there must be some logic behind using it.

This is just my LONG opinion.... < Opinion is the key word, as I am not a scientist or expert. :lol:

[ludnix]

I have seen nothing to suggest it has any value in any form.

[gooyferret]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15372330#post15372330 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ludnix
I have seen nothing to suggest it has any value in any form.

Seen or heard? And what do you mean by value?

*Just trying to get more info! :lol:

[tmz]

I've used it . Don't see any change in appetite. Don't think it imparts any immuno boost to marine fish either, in my opinion.Can it hurt? Maybe, it's no t a natural substance to the reef.

[GrimReefer82]

I have had many sick fish in the past that wouldn't eat for days. Every time I supplemented their diet with garlic they ate. Explain That! Also since I started using garlic my fish's ich has all disappeared and never returned. I'm not saying that garlic cures ich, what I am saying is that garlic has been proven many times over to be good for you and have a positive effect on your immune system. Why couldn't it have the same effect for fish? If you say it doesn't effect appetite then you are not very observant of your fish or you have never used it. When I go fishing I soak the bait in garlic and catch more fish then whoever is with me using the same bait and no garlic. IMO it's proven.

[tmz]

I am very obserbvant. I used it for over a year when I saw things though rose colored glasss.
You have no reason to be nasty when someone's opinion differs from yours. You can have your opinion for what it is worth . I have mine. I don't have to explain anything to you. I do not believe based on my experience and observatioon that garlic is very useful if at all. It' really not even worth the discussion. You like it ;use it. Don't attack people who don't share your limited point of view, it's stupid.

[gooyferret]

Ken the OP is really getting what he was asking for! A debate of opinions..

Its like drinking OJ when your sick... :lol:

TMZ, the article that Andrew posted actually states in his article that it does increase the immune system. In the one experiment it actually increased, and maintained the bacterial infection that they used for the study.. More than some of their other antibiotics.

I guess you could just let the fish not eat, dont add garlic and at least try....and let the fish die.... :rolleye1:

A few questions I have: Is there anything in this hobby that is proven 100%?

My friend Josh and I always have the debate on vodka and carbon source dosing....I dont believe in it and he does. I have had my tank setup (again) for 3-4 months his a couple years...I have better readings overall on my tank. How do you explain that, if carbon dosing is "proven" to work?

[GrimReefer82]

Wow you are touchy....I never attacked you! The only negative thing I said was that either you weren't very observant or you didn't use it. Maybe I was wrong. I apologize! JEEZ! It appears to me that your comments are a direct attack on me. The whole point of my post was to give my opinion just as you are entitled to yours.

TMZ please explain how I was nasty.

What makes my point of view limited?

You should reread your post and mine and adjust your attitude.

[gooyferret]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15372535#post15372535 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GrimReefer82
Wow you are touchy....I never attacked you! The only negative thing I said was that either you weren't very observant or you didn't use it. Maybe I was wrong. I apologize! JEEZ! It appears to me that your comments are a direct attack on me. The whole point of my post was to give my opinion just as you are entitled to yours.

TMZ please explain how I was nasty.

What makes my point of view limited?

You should reread your post and mine and adjust your attitude.

Dang this is getting good now! :lol: I might have to stay up all night!! :D

TMZ, if you haven't figured this out yet let me help....This entire hobby is all opinions. It has been proven to work but never in a complete controlled enviroment (who has the money to borrow me). You would have to have tons of different species, and many multiples of each to do accurate research on it.

I have used it with great results and for only $8 or so a bottle that lasts a long time why not use it?

Gooy

[GrimReefer82]

I'm not trying to fight with him.

[gooyferret]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15372592#post15372592 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GrimReefer82
I'm not trying to fight with him.

:lol:

I know its late, and im drinking too much Pepsi!

Although this is a good thread its just based on everyones individual opinions....Like most things in this hobby.

It has proven to me to work...thats all that matters.

We should get Mythbusters on this one! ASAP! :D

[amore169]

I soaked all my food in Selcon an Garlic Extreme, it seems to help I been doing it for at least a year. I haven't had any outbreaks in my tank.

[tmz]

I stated my opinion. I don't see value in it. I stated I used it without mentioning you. You said I either didn't use it or was not observant. That's about me; not garlic and says I'm lying or not able to make observation and demonstrates a limited perspective intolerant of another's point of view in a particularly nasty way. I have used it, studied about it, observed closely and discontinued it without any changes in any changes in fish health. . In my experience and opinion it has no beneficial effect on marine fish other than a placebo effect. . You believe otherwise. That's ok by me.

[jadeguppy]

I have used it with good results. I prefer the seachem garlic to other brands. After adding it to food, my sailfin that was very heavily infected appeared to have had many of the cycts fall off. This continued after feedings for several days. After getting garlic back in stock, I have not lost any fish or had an ick outbreak since. I probably add it to the food 2-3 times a week. The best way I can explain it is that mosquitoes and other such things will avoid a person who has eatten a lot of garlic. Perhaps the ick doesn't like the taste. ;)

[rodcpierce]

i can just put a few drops in my tank and the fish go nuts. I treat all my food with it, and it will make the pickiest of eaters consume.

[GrimReefer82]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15372635#post15372635 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
I stated my opinion. I don't see value in it. I stated I used it without mentioning you. You said I either didn't use it or was not observant. That's about me; not garlic and says I'm lying or not able to make observation and demonstrates a limited perspective intolerant of another's point of view in a particularly nasty way. I have used it, studied about it, observed closely and discontinued it without any changes in any changes in fish health. . In my experience and opinion it has no beneficial effect on marine fish other than a placebo effect. . You believe otherwise. That's ok by me.

Seriously you read further into my post than you should have. Some people aren't very observant when they claim that they are. Doesn't mean my point of view is limited or that i stated anything nasty.

I would like to know what method of garlic supplementation you were using.

A fish doesn't get placebo effect from garlic. If they do then I would like to know how the fish knows that you are treating it for a parasite using garlic as a placebo.

[GrimReefer82]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15372646#post15372646 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rodcpierce
i can just put a few drops in my tank and the fish go nuts. I treat all my food with it, and it will make the pickiest of eaters consume.

I have actually put a few drops of garlic extreme in my sump and seen my fish start going to the top and swimming back and forth looking for food when there was no food added.

[tmz]

Goo, I read that article several times . The study had many flaws and was based on injection not ingestion and did not have a control . It also used allicin not old preserved garlic juice wherein the active allicin would have expired . Allicin is created in the garlic clove ,used by it to protect itself from infection if the clove is bruised or damaged . It is only active for about an hour and then it breaks down.
I understand opinions . You are certainly entitled to one. So am I without acerbic commentary.. I think food soaked in commercial hobby product garlic concetrates has no immuno boosting value to marine fish. I observed no change in feeding response with or without garlic over the year I used it. That's my opinion and experience stated as such. You like it; use it. I hope it does some good and no harm for you.

Not to confuse opinion with fact but a bit of information on what garlic does and how it does it is probably relevant.

Garlic posses two elements to help it combat bacterial and fungal infections in case the clove is damaged or bruised. They are allin and and enzyme called allinase . They combine to form allicin which has an anti microbial not an anti parasitic effect(ich is a ciliate protozoan parasite). Allicin is only active for about an hour after the garlic is damaged/ crushed. This makes the use of commercial hobby products which are any thing but fresh of even more dubious benefit.
Further studies on humans have found garlic can irritate stomach cells . Can continuous long term use harm fish? Maybe. Probably just as if not more likely than it it can increase their immunity to parasites or even bacteria and fungus. If active allicin does somehow work it's way in a bioavailable form undestroyed by stomach acids to the fish's bloodstream and tissues ,why wouldn't it harm beneficial bacterial flora as well as bad? Many fish rely on intestinal microbial flora for digestion .Are there other things in garlic that may be beneficial?Maybe,but I don't think any have been identified.

So if it gives you some sense of comfort to use it and you believe it helps your fish ; use it. It may not do any harm and may do some good . I just don't think so . I'll stick to quarantine and proven treatments for diseases.

[jenglish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15372663#post15372663 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GrimReefer82
Seriously you read further into my post than you should have. Some people aren't very observant when they claim that they are. Doesn't mean my point of view is limited or that i stated anything nasty.

I would like to know what method of garlic supplementation you were using.

A fish doesn't get placebo effect from garlic. If they do then I would like to know how the fish knows that you are treating it for a parasite using garlic as a placebo.

Seems to me like Tom is trying to explain his POV and you keep saying if he sees anything but what you see he is not observant,

http://www.geocities.com/vibestothemax/chill_pill.jpg

[snorvich]

Well, I come down on the side of tmz's viewpoint. There is no scientific evidence that garlic affects the immune system of people or fish; there are a lot of homeopathic treatments to "increase" your immune system, none of which have ever measured the immune system before or afterwards to see if it increases or decreases. Like tmz, I think anyone can do whatever they think is best for themselves or their animals (fish, dogs, etc). I have used it and it does increase nutrient level in the tank, and is not a substance found naturally on the reef.

There are three treatments for ich that have proven successful. Two out of those three have downsides (some strains of cryptocaryon are oblivious to hyposalinity at a level that is still safe for fish, copper has negative affects on biocapacity and some fish). The only proven method is tank swapping but that is infeasible for most people.

When push comes to shove (don't you like that analogy for this thread), Reef Central is a collection of opinions. Some are based on experience, while others are based on hearsay. In the long run, many people only learn by screwing up since many of the easy ways of doing things don't work.

[jener8tionx]

I agree with TMZ here. Grim, you need to take a breath.

[Andrew]

Let's keep this peaceful. Steven Pro's article does cover many good points and yes he does do his research to back up his statements. Steven has written numerous articles for the Reef Keeping Magazine and is respected by many in the reefkeeping field.

Garlic is NOT an affected treatment for Cryptocaryon irritans. Garlic is a stimulate that is added to food to enrich the flavor. Enough garlic in a fish's system will help strengthen their immune system. So in short terms, yes garlic can aid in protecting the fish from contracting the parasite, but no it will not fully prevent it.

Many reefers use garlic for an easy way out of a serious problem. Putting a fish through hypo is a much more affected method. This is why every fish should be hyped before entering your tank. It all comes down to how much effort you are willing to take to protect your tank.

Am I saying to not feed your fish garlic? No. It can be a good supplement if added to a varied diet. But Garlic shouldn't be used for ich treatment. There's more to killing the parasite than a few drops of garlic.

[Paul B]

I have had many sick fish in the past that wouldn't eat for days. Every time I supplemented their diet with garlic they ate. Explain That! Also since I started using garlic my fish's ich has all disappeared and never returned. I'm not saying that garlic cures ich, what I am saying is that garlic has been proven many times over to be good for you and have a positive effect on your immune system.

Ok I am just stating my opinion, I am not argueing, fighting or doing anything else.

I have also many times had fish that did not eat. Many fish at first do not eat and I have kept a lot of fish in the last fifty plus years of keeping fish. Most of them ate eventually with no garlic.

I have not quarantined in almost 30 years and my fish do not get ich. I add all sorts of things from the sea but no garlic.
I feel fish will eat and be disease resistant for other reasons.
I can't get into that now so have a great day.
Paul

[Ken_wied]

This is exactly what I was looking for. A LOT of differing opinions. Thanks everyone!

[tmz]

The supplements I used were Kent garlic extreme and Seachem garlic guard. I used it for a long time. May have been more than a year. Worried a bit when I stopped which was over a year ago I was going to try fresh squeezed garlic but then decided not to after learning that the allicin is likely destroyed in stomach acid and I became concerned that garlic additions might contribute to nutrients as well as do more harm than good for fish in the long run after reading more about it. .

[Steven Pro]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15372304#post15372304 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gooyferret
Andrew do you know if he ever did controlled tests with garlic and the results? When was his article written?

Unfortunately, no. I got far too busy with other projects to complete the Molly experiment. I also had difficulty in obtaining clean samples of Cryptocaryon. The article was published in October, 2005.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15372304#post15372304 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gooyferret
As a side note: If a research facility or Seaworld is going to spend $1,000's if not more on researching garlic, there must be some logic behind using it.

The question to ask is not did someone experimentally try it. The real question is after experimenting with it, do they still use it?

[coral_lagoon]

IMO the garlic vs ich thing is hocus pocus..