leaky closed loop

[hndakd]

I got my closed loop plumbed yesterday. Went to leak test it and..... it leaks. I know the best way to make sure it doesnt is to glue it, but there are some connections where i dont want to glue it in case something goes wrong. I pressed the fittings in really really tight and those i get a pin drop of water. The pipes that are glued are fine. Is there some glue or something that i can put around the seams to keep them sealed? Silcone doesnt do it after awhile it starts to bubble out and leaks again.

[Curve]

You better glue all of your fittings on your closed loop if you don't want disaster later. A closed loop has some pressure on it unlike a regular over flow or return pipe so over time the fittings will come undone if you don't glue them all.

[hndakd]

thats what i was thinking....... with all the lines full of water i wasnt looking forward to this.

*edit
will just plumbers dope be ok on the threaded fittings? I have threaded bulk heads... (i know i wish i would have bought slip)

[coralfragger101]

I don't know what's in plumbers dope. Most people use the teflon paste for that application. While I do understand that it should not get wet. Any that squeezed to the inside will be in contact with your water.

At a minimum, just clean off any that has squeezed through on the inside of the bulkhead.

[billdogg]

FWIW - plumbers dope (TFE paste) is the correct stuff to use on threaded fittings. put a small bead around the male threads and screw them in - there is minimal mess that way, and, for me at least, i've never had one leak. IME - ALL plumbing should mbe glued or screwed - press fittings WILL leak sooner or later, and the results tend to be ugly JMO

[hndakd]

i totally agree. This is my first closed loop and i was hoping to sneak by with pressing some of the fittings... i guess im not part of the extraordinary lucky club. Thankfully the tank only has a 1/4 inch of water in it.

[cdness]

ha ha ha.... If I only pressed my closed loop in I could drain 1/2 of my 75 in a matter of seconds...lol. You had better glue the pipes in to prevent major disaster... Use unions if you want flexibility to remove the pipes at a later time.

[hndakd]

lol, if i bought all the unions i wanted i would spend more on the plumbing than i did on the pumps. 2" unions are mucho dinero

[sober_pollock]

If you feel you are going to need to take parts of it apart in the future.....Use unions in the locations you will want to be able to take apart.....and glue the rest.

pollock
:)

[hndakd]

argh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! things to not do when gluing pvc...

1. measure once
2. forget to glue with other piece of union on pipe

failure to do so could result in multiple trips to lowes....


I have been to lowes 4 times already because of number 2.... 30$ later i have given up for the day because of the stupidness of myself.

[insane]

Use a two part epoxy that can work in wet conditions. Not the kind for attaching frags but the liquid kind. It comes in an applicator that looks like a big dual chamber syringe. Have the system off when you do it and give it the time to set up. You can buy super fast setting epoxy so you wont have to have the pump off too long. Most hardware stores sell it.

[hndakd]

too late for the epoxy. tank is drained and all plumbing is off. Wish i would have thought of that. getting ready for one more trip to lowes...

[hndakd]

yay!!! i got it working.

just so people know a 2" coupler will fit through a 2" union. saved me 30 bucks.

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15381971#post15381971 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hndakd
I got my closed loop plumbed yesterday. Went to leak test it and..... it leaks. I know the best way to make sure it doesnt is to glue it, but there are some connections where i dont want to glue it in case something goes wrong. I pressed the fittings in really really tight and those i get a pin drop of water. The pipes that are glued are fine. Is there some glue or something that i can put around the seams to keep them sealed? Silcone doesnt do it after awhile it starts to bubble out and leaks again.

Glue is not optional PVC SLIP fittings are designed to be glued (solvent welded). You really must use it (PVC cement) on any fitting that is external to the tank. At best, non glued joint will quickly form a LOT of salt creep, at worst you will come home to an empty tank.

It looks like you already figured that part out though :)

As for the epoxy... it is not the right product for the application. Though it could be used in an emergency, sealing the exterior of the joint is a band-aid that is bound to fail sooner or later, even with a strong epoxy. You did the right thing by solvent welding the fittings.

[insane]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15385501#post15385501 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Glue is not optional PVC SLIP fittings are designed to be glued (solvent welded). You really must use it (PVC cement) on any fitting that is external to the tank. At best, non glued joint will quickly form a LOT of salt creep, at worst you will come home to an empty tank.

It looks like you already figured that part out though :)

As for the epoxy... it is not the right product for the application. Though it could be used in an emergency, sealing the exterior of the joint is a band-aid that is bound to fail sooner or later, even with a strong epoxy. You did the right thing by solvent welding the fittings.

I use epoxies for emergencies, protecting sound systems from less than the brightest DJ's and in cases like where a concrete floor would have to be torn out to replace an improperly installed copper drain pipe in a rented building that had pinholes in it and a rubber coupling was not an option because the pinholes were right at the concrete. It was in an old bar. You want to see some fascinating band-aids....drunks in bars that say "I can fix that". Bad idea.

Bean, do you prefer slip or threaded in bulkheads?

I lean towards FPT so things can be changed without having to replace the bulkhead. MPT adapters can take up more room if you don't have the room to spare.

[fishgeek12]

Unions are your best friend!

[insane]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15385721#post15385721 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishgeek12
Unions are your best friend!

I talk to mine but they always ignore me. Some friends!

[BeanAnimal]

I prefer SLIP bulkhead for most general stuff. MPT for 2" and up.

[ChknWing]

I go with as many MPT and FPT connections as I can so I don't have to re buy expensive parts, like true unions, bulkheads, etc

[hndakd]

well about 24hrs later i have found two leaks. they are very very slow. basically the lip of an elbow around the pipe it was attached to had some water on it. Not even enough to make it drip on the floor. Im going to put some epoxy on it. Does it matter which i use? theres a couple to choose from they all dry in different times the longest being an hour. Its a "marine" epoxy. The others are all 2 part syringes and dry between 3-15 min.

[insane]

2 part syringe. Check the labels. Different epoxies are made for different surfaces. Glass, plastics, metals, woods, one type of surface to a different type of surface, etc. It is a band-aid but a strong band-aid. When you do this make sure there is no pressure in the pipe and that the area is completely dry and clean from dirt, salt, oils, etc. Apply more than you think you need and coat enough of the surfaces to make your band-aid bigger than just the actual pinhole spot you want to stop leaking. I would actually go all the way around the entire joint seam and out 1/4" or so on both sides of the joint. Water loves to travel and you may have more leaks pop up so go ahead and plan for that happening while you are in repair mode and have the epoxy there anyways. This kind of fix isn't actually a fix. A system is only as strong as it's weakest point.

When gluing any type of PVC for high pressure applications you have to sand the end of the pipe where it will go into the fitting, this roughs up the surface. Just wrap a piece of sandpaper around the end of the pipe and rotate either the pipe or the sandpaper a few times to roughen up the surface. Do not use a too fine grade of sand paper. Then when gluing, coat both the pipe end and the inside of the fitting. Don't be stingy with the glue, it is cheap and permenant runny glue marks on your pipes/fittings is better than water coming out of your joints.

Insert the pipe into the fitting fully and rotate the pipe or fitting all the way around a few times until you feel the joint stiffen up. This evenly distributes the glue inside of the joint. Make your final fitting direction adjustment before it gets too hard to rotate the fitting. You will have a few seconds to adjust it. This will work at most joints until you get down to a certain point in your lines where turning the pipe or fitting isn't an option or if space does not allow doing it.

[hndakd]

i sanded when i was gluing all the joints. i guess i didnt get it all the way in there. I bought some plastic bonding epoxy and smeared it all over the outside joint. it is holding now but there is still no pressure on the line. It is leaking from the upper elbow on the intake of my closed loop. it actually was running all the way down the pipe and settling on the next elbow. I think that this will fix it.

[BeanAnimal]

I am not sure I follow? You should not have to "sand" a PVC SLIP joint. PVC cement is not "glue" it is mostly a solvent that has very little solids content. It "welds" two tightly fitting pieces together by melting their surfaces and allowing them to intermingle before drying.

I don't mean to sound negative, but it sounds like you may want to think about rebuilding the setup with new pipe and fittings and doing it correctly. At least replace the leaking fittings. You can do so with a few unions or couplers. Why use a band-aid when you have the opportunity to do it right before the tank is up and running.

[hndakd]

Sorry bean, I'm thinking and typing at the same time. All the fittings are glued or screwed. As for glue I used the purple primer and the red all purpose pvc cement. I sanded down the ends of cut pipe to get rid of any burs and smooth it out a little. I don't know why any of the pipes are leaking honestly. I put a lot of cement on there. The one that I haven't been able to fully correct is the intake line on my dart. It is not even a drop every hour. I put some epoxy around the joint but it is still there. I really do not want to go get more pipe but I will if I have to.

[BeanAnimal]

Ahh yes, deburring the end of the pipes is fine... I thought you sanded the outer surface of the pipe.

In the future, the all-purpose glue should be avoided... Just use medium body PVC cement. Seat the fittings with a 1/4 turn and hold them tight until the cement starts to set.

The intake on the dart is threaded and 2", so it should be sealed with PTFE paste, not PTFE (teflon) tape. The epoxy is not going to fix the problem :) I would honestly cut out any leaking fittings nad repalce them while you still have the system in the setup stages.

As for the Dart connections. Just remove the threaded fittings and clean them up (or replace them) and when you put the setup back together coat the MALE fittings with teflon paste and then screw them in. They don't need to be super tight, just snug.\

You SHOULD srping for a 2" true union ball valves to go on either side of the dart so that it can be removed for maintenance... you WILL have to to remove it for mainenance from time to time.

Good luck :)

[hndakd]

dont worry i did spring for the unions and all that jazz. i can get the pump out. Im pretty sure the fitting is fixed...... pretty sure. Its funny that i spent more on plumbing than i did on the tank itself. I have always used the all purpose and been fine. the dart connections dont leak. the connection from the bulkhead to the elbow leak. its a micro dot of water about every 10 hours. ill try to remember to take pics so it easier to understand what im describing. setting this up has taken every ounce of patience i have left, which as already been spent on work. Cant wait until i turn the return on and it starts turning over.

[insane]

In order to try and help any and everyone when PVC or CPVC is on their mind, I collected a little data on the subject from one manufacturer as to everything you could possibly want to know about usage of and how to......this, that & the other thing.

I was half asleep from just waking up this morning when I put it together so pardon moi for the crudeness of my work.

Please click here for more than you ever wanted to know about PVC and CPVC (http://www.illinimastini.com/reef/pvc.html)

He did it because he is,
http://www.illinimastini.com/reef/PVC_files/insanestar.jpg