What Brute Cans are ok?? [Archive] - Reef Central Online Community

solitude127

07/22/2009, 12:54 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15393423#post15393423 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
I think the general concensus is that even though the Brutes are FDA approved for food contact, they leach phosphates during long exposures. I use them for mixing saltwater, but don't STORE water in them for long periods.

There are plenty of posts on the subject, but no real concensus.

What do you define as "long period of time"?

BeanAnimal

07/22/2009, 01:41 PM

Longer than a short period of time :)

Honestly... somehwere between using the container as mixing tank and a water storage tank. Some folks report rising PO4 numbers after a day or so.

Reefer2727

07/22/2009, 02:03 PM

Bean,

Are there any Home Depot or Lowe's grade cans that you would recommend for RODI storage?

Ohiomom

07/22/2009, 02:20 PM

http://www.rubbermaidproducts.com/pd.665/brute-container-44-gal-usda-condemned-yellow.aspx

Thinking these are the ones I generally see suggested..:)

Reefer2727

07/22/2009, 02:25 PM

Awesome. Thanks Sandra.

Does anyone think putting a bulkhead through the bottom of these is a bad idea?

cojo444

07/22/2009, 05:59 PM

the ice thing about the 55 gallon brute trash cans from Home Depot is that you can purchase the roller-base that simply twists ON. I personally use two: one for my RODI unit and a second for removing tank water. It takes me about 15 minutes to do a 20% water change. I'm going to install a spare power-head in the RODI can to help circulate water as well as using it to pump the fresh water back into my tank during a water change.

These cans are thick enough to install a shut-off float. I've been using the brute cans for over two years and I've seen no problems.

colombiano81

07/27/2009, 07:26 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15399250#post15399250 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cojo444
the ice thing about the 55 gallon brute trash cans from Home Depot is that you can purchase the roller-base that simply twists ON. I personally use two: one for my RODI unit and a second for removing tank water. It takes me about 15 minutes to do a 20% water change. I'm going to install a spare power-head in the RODI can to help circulate water as well as using it to pump the fresh water back into my tank during a water change.

These cans are thick enough to install a shut-off float. I've been using the brute cans for over two years and I've seen no problems.

Have you ever had a PO4 problem with using the grey brute can in the last 2 years? I recently started using this method (which I love), but I've been combating a PO4 problem. i recently added a Phosban reactor and hope to bring it down. Yesterday, my PO4 was at .25ppm. But I think, PO4 was lurking in my tank for about a year and might have been absorbed by my rock (as some people here on RC state).

Just curious if your brute can system has given you any problems with PO4....

Thanks,

Miguel

chilwil84

07/27/2009, 07:36 PM

the ones you want have a small imprint on the bottom that says nsf. this has to be stamped on all products that come in direct contact with food in resteraunts.

colombiano81

07/27/2009, 07:41 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15427379#post15427379 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chilwil84
the ones you want have a small imprint on the bottom that says nsf. this has to be stamped on all products that come in direct contact with food in resteraunts.

So if it's stamped nsf, I should be safe from PO4?

chilwil84

07/27/2009, 08:10 PM

there is no guarentee that they tested it to the levels that we test for phosphates because phosphates arent as harmful to us as they are to a reef. that said it is the safest form of plastic we can use in our tanks. salt and many other products we use in our tanks come in plastic and most spend longer than a couple days in the container.

loonybin

07/27/2009, 08:27 PM

What about putting rowaphos in a filter bag in the brute tank to absorb any phosphates? How about a filter bag filled with DI Resin? I thought about this as a way of combating leaching, but have been too chicken to try.
-chris

Henry Bowman

07/27/2009, 08:39 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15427657#post15427657 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chilwil84
there is no guarentee that they tested it to the levels that we test for phosphates because phosphates arent as harmful to us as they are to a reef. that said it is the safest form of plastic we can use in our tanks. salt and many other products we use in our tanks come in plastic and most spend longer than a couple days in the container.

Exactly !

I'm a Chef and have asked the same basic information of a Virginia Dept of Health Inspector. He stated that to get the NSF lable, normal foods (most of our food is acidic not alkaline) must not take on any more than 10-15 ppm of any of a list of chemicals, mostly petrochem. Great for us, not so good for our tanks. He also stated that over a time, leaching will lessen.

Having said all that, I use a Rubbermaid (Makers of Brute Containers) for years without incident.

I would strongly recomend that everyone use containers that are designed for food. This is confirmed by the NSF stamp usually on the bottom of the container. Containers NOT marked NSF can and probably will leach chemicals.

colombiano81

07/28/2009, 12:12 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15427895#post15427895 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Henry Bowman
Exactly !

I'm a Chef and have asked the same basic information of a Virginia Dept of Health Inspector. He stated that to get the NSF lable, normal foods (most of our food is acidic not alkaline) must not take on any more than 10-15 ppm of any of a list of chemicals, mostly petrochem. Great for us, not so good for our tanks. He also stated that over a time, leaching will lessen.

Having said all that, I use a Rubbermaid (Makers of Brute Containers) for years without incident.

I would strongly recomend that everyone use containers that are designed for food. This is confirmed by the NSF stamp usually on the bottom of the container. Containers NOT marked NSF can and probably will leach chemicals.

Sorry Everyone, This is where my ESL (English as a Second Language) kicks in. What is meant by "leaching" in this context? I'm having a brain-fart moment here..... :confused:

sreefs

07/28/2009, 12:26 PM

I am using large brute gray trash cans that are NSF approved food contact and after a day I start to get phosphate readings of 0.25 and above. The water going in reads 0 I also tried putting a gfo reactor in and the water coming out of the reactor reads 0 for 2 days now is back up to 0.28, I thought the Hanna was reading wrong but tested several times and got the same thing, took a reading on ro/di and got 0! I need to find some new mixing containers! I always thought the Brutes that are NSF food contact would not give out phosphate, I was wrong!

Pat

colombiano81

07/28/2009, 12:37 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15431308#post15431308 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sreefs
I am using large brute gray trash cans that are NSF approved food contact and after a day I start to get phosphate readings of 0.25 and above. The water going in reads 0 I also tried putting a gfo reactor in and the water coming out of the reactor reads 0 for 2 days now is back up to 0.28, I thought the Hanna was reading wrong but tested several times and got the same thing, took a reading on ro/di and got 0! I need to find some new mixing containers! I always thought the Brutes that are NSF food contact would not give out phosphate, I was wrong!

Pat

THIS ISN"T GOOD PEOPLE! I'm going to start testing my water coming out of my brute can

108reefer

07/28/2009, 12:43 PM

I have always used salt containers for whole house water treatments. they are about 30 gallons, only 18" and 42" tall. they dont take up as much room, and you can drill them, and oh - only about $20! found at your local water treatment stores.

108reefer

07/28/2009, 12:44 PM

sorry, brine tanks is what they call them.

colombiano81

07/28/2009, 01:30 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15431414#post15431414 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 108reefer
sorry, brine tanks is what they call them.
Thanks Matt. Are these Brine tanks white? If so, Wouldn't we run the risk of growing algae because of the light filtering through? Could you post a pic of your setup?

108reefer

07/28/2009, 03:38 PM

the ones i have are beige in color with black lids. I'll take a picture of it for ya. I just finished (sort of) a major renovation on the house so that stuff is a bit of a mess... I have one in the laundry room (wife's not particularly happy) that I make the top off/water change in, the other I just store in the garage for water changes - 28 gal out, 28 back in.

mirkus

07/29/2009, 12:06 PM

bump

GlassReef

07/29/2009, 02:33 PM

To return, for a moment to the OP's question. I had the 32-33gal dark grey "Bute" from HD. Stated FDA approved. My RO water was 0.0 PO4 - after 4 days in the Brute my Hanna meter read 0.06 PO4. That's too much for me. Never used it again.

colombiano81

07/29/2009, 03:50 PM

OMG! I wonder If i were to use a heavy duty-industrial strength liner if that would help avoid the PO4 being release from the plastic. Of course, one would have to be careful of not puncturing the liner. The brute can with the wheels is just so darned convenient.

Henry Bowman

07/29/2009, 09:36 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15438635#post15438635 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GlassReef
To return, for a moment to the OP's question. I had the 32-33gal dark grey "Bute" from HD. Stated FDA approved. My RO water was 0.0 PO4 - after 4 days in the Brute my Hanna meter read 0.06 PO4. That's too much for me. Never used it again.

What type of container do you use now?

detroit_fan

07/29/2009, 09:48 PM

this really stinks. I store my top off water in a 44gal btute and I keep another 44 gal full of sw for water changes or emergencies. what can we store water in that won't leach?

GlassReef

07/29/2009, 11:13 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15441201#post15441201 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Henry Bowman
What type of container do you use now? Ace Roto-Mold (65gal). Got them from Us Plastics. Tested and zero PO4.

Reeferon

07/30/2009, 09:01 AM

Ace Roto-mold is about $100 for a 20 gallon container.
Is there a cheaper alternative??

So it was agreed that the yellow brute container will leach PO4 into the water? Too bad if it does, because a 20 gallon one is about $30!

108reefer

07/30/2009, 09:46 AM

The cheapest alternative is the brine tank from your local water treatment store. $20 for a 30 gal container - no leaching. 0 in 0 out.

mnml

07/30/2009, 11:38 AM

I wonder if these are okay? It says it's made to store RO water.
http://www.plastic-mart.com/class.php?item=218

"VERTICAL STORAGE TANKS are most frequently used for bulk storage of water, fertilizer, and agricultural and industrial chemicals,& Reverse Osmosis Industrial Water Tank. They feature tie-down slots, centered & offset self-vented, slosh-proof lids.
VERTICAL STORAGE TANK walls are translucent for level viewing and equipped with gallon indicators.
(s.g.) = specific gravity (lb.s per gallon)
water = (1.0 s.g.) "

MO Will

08/03/2009, 12:08 PM

Hi everyone

Great thread but a little bit of a bummer as I use Brute tanks for my water storage now

Also - I use a rubbermaid stock tank for my sump

Does anyone know if these leach phosphates?

I tried to find the Ace roto-mold containers at US pLastics but couldn't find them - can someone post a link?

Thanks

Will

GlassReef

08/03/2009, 12:22 PM

Here ya go: Ace Roto-Mold Tanks (65gal) (http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/variant.asp?catalog%5Fname=usplastic&category%5Fname=32&product%5Fid=4293&variant%5Fid=8507)

reefboarder

08/03/2009, 03:52 PM

If you live near any type of food packaging warehouse that bottle soy sauce etc... you may be able to pick up the 55 gal blue barrels for cheap I get them second hand for 18.99. I just rinse clean, rinse clean, rinse clean, super chlorinate 24 hours rinse, rinse, rinse, rinse, rinse, rinse and when you feel comfortable with it being good and rinsed do it a few more times for good measure!

James77

08/03/2009, 04:33 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15465187#post15465187 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GlassReef
Here ya go: Ace Roto-Mold Tanks (65gal) (http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/variant.asp?catalog%5Fname=usplastic&category%5Fname=32&product%5Fid=4293&variant%5Fid=8507)

Is it just those containers that won't leach? Would any of their polyethylene tanks be phosphate free?

laverda

08/04/2009, 01:34 AM

I have 2 questions for the people saying there getting PO$ from their containers. Are you measuring using straight RO/DI without any salt mix. Is your container new or well seasoned? I ask this for two reasons.
First: Many salt mixes have small amounts of PO4 in them, so it may not be coming from the container.
Second: RO/DI water is the most universal acid there is. It will dissolve more materials then any other acid. Granted it is a very mild acid, but that is how it gets everything in it that we strip out with our RO/DI filters. Straight RO/DI is more likely to absorb PO4 out of the containers then Saltwater. Also it should absorb it out quickly and your PO4 levels should drop after a few uses.

108reefer

08/04/2009, 05:49 AM

great thinking Laverda, I still believe in the polyethylene containers or food grade plastics for the new buyer. you could be correct in the thought that it may stop after "seasoning" but how much are you going to get, and when is it going to stop?

patsfan1130

08/04/2009, 05:51 AM

Hmmm. I've been using the grey brutes for years. From time to time I test the water and always come up clean. I have never had a PO4 issue in any of my tanks. I have never been concerned with the brute containers for water storage. Even after reading this I have no concerns. A few times a year I will rinse them with vinegar but that just good husbandy IMO. Not really sure it has any effect on PO4.

HighlandReef

08/04/2009, 11:55 AM

the grey ones i have... have a stamp on the bottom that basically stands for food safe, i have not had any issues with mine

108reefer

08/04/2009, 01:21 PM

I would have to agree with the stamp... if it has it - good to go!

colombiano81

08/04/2009, 01:48 PM

I'm going to test my luck. Once I use up all the salt water I have in mine, I'm going to rinse it well with RO/DI a few times and then I'm going to fill it with straight RO/DI water only and not add any salt. I'll measure the PO4 as soon as I fill the Brute can, then I'll measure it about 4-5 days later to find out if mine is leaching. Wish me luck everyone. I'll keep y'all posted.

sreefs

08/04/2009, 03:12 PM

I tested using only Ro/Di water in them before salt was added some of these are over 7 years old. I tested a total of 9 different brutes all of them grey and they all had the stamp on the bottom that said safe for food contact. Three of these are mine the others were friends they all gave readings of at least 0.18 and as high as .31 using a hanna. I put a phos. reactor on the brute and the next morning it read 0 but 3 days later it started to climb and after 7 days it was back to .28. I used to test using the high end deltec test kit but it always read 0 when a friend compared it to a hanna he would get readings the deltec couldn't, so I bought a Phosphate meter. If you are testing using anything but a hanna meter I wouldn't trust the results. All 9 I tested leach just to let you know.
Pat

HighlandReef

08/04/2009, 03:23 PM

i dont store water in mine, i make the water, mix in the salt and do a water change.
if your storing water in them then i can see them leaching

colombiano81

08/04/2009, 03:24 PM

awwww man. This just gave me a bad feeling in my stomach. Just when I thought I had a system down for convenient water changes. Darn-it!!! I'm pretty confident I'll get the same results as you Pat.

I have been using Saliferts PO4 test.

Pat/sreefs: You mentioned a "hanna". Is that a handheld meter? Could you post a picture or a model? Would you recommend this over a salifert test?

HighlandReef

08/04/2009, 04:18 PM

i have a handheld and it reads 0 in the grey brute, did they change something? i have had mine for a couple of years now

colombiano81

08/04/2009, 04:51 PM

CGRANT: You mentioned that you don't store water in yours. Perhaps that's why you're getting a reading of 0. The issue for the rest of us is because we're storing our fresh salt water in the brute can. Apparently, if water is left in the brute can for several days, po4 begins to leach. (this is a bit discouraging :-(

sreefs

08/04/2009, 06:10 PM

It only takes about 8 hours for me to get a reading of .14 with a 0 reading on the water going in and 0 after 1 1/2 hours. I will post a link to the hanna phosphate meter. I have tried elos and deltec's high end test kits and many other test kits and they always got 0. Salifert phoshate kits do not measure low range in my experience.
To read the low range you need a hanna or martini low range phoshate meter. IMO
CGrant what meter do you call a hand held?
Pat

sreefs

08/04/2009, 06:20 PM

Link to Hanna Phosphate Photometer Low Range many of the sponsors on RC sell this meter! Make sure you order the low range meter if you buy one!
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=Hanna
Pat

MO Will

08/04/2009, 09:14 PM

Anyone know if this is an issue with the rubbermaid stock tanks

Thanks!

chi3f

08/05/2009, 12:13 AM

brute trash cans can take a beating! i use them in my landscaping buss. and i put them through some tough. test and they pass!!!!

chi3f

08/05/2009, 12:13 AM

besides the normal wear and tear they stand up better then any other ive tried

patsfan1130

08/05/2009, 05:52 AM

I really feel this is a bit overblown. A lot of people seem to be doing their chicken little impersonation on this one. I too use a hanna meter on all of my PO4 testing. I get nothing from either my storage container or my displays. Granted, I run a fuge on all of my tanks so maybe that is effecting the test on the tanks. Or maybe Brute did change something with their product. *shrug*

No offense intended here at all...but 1 statement stating Brutes leach PO4 does not mean the sky is falling. I would think it does merit some additional research though.

Earl111

08/05/2009, 07:10 AM

I typically add my salt and change the water that same day or the next day. On the last change I waited about three days before the change. There was a white film on the inside of the can, I used it anyway without any harmfull affects. It was easily wiped away with my hand. I've left regular ro/di in the can for up to a week and have not seen this white film. Makes me think it's the salt that was making the can leach

BeanAnimal

08/05/2009, 07:12 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15476103#post15476103 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by patsfan1130
No offense intended here at all...but 1 statement stating Brutes leach PO4 does not mean the sky is falling. I would think it does merit some additional research though.

The problem has been observed by more than 1 person on more than one reef forum. I may be wrong, but there are more than 1 report in this thread alone :)

HighlandReef

08/05/2009, 09:15 AM

it takes me ~1 day to fill the 33 gallon brute can for a water change then i usually add the salt and do the water change the next day.
i know i have tested the water ~24hrs after filling the brute can w ro/di and get a 0 reading but again i only store the water in the can for like 2 days then it sits dry until next water change so i am not sure mine is a good test of this, maybe i will fill it like 1/3 of the way and let it sit for a couple of days and see what happens, i'm about due for a water change anyway but thats not to say they didnt change something over the last couple of years

sreefs

08/05/2009, 09:24 AM

CGRANT
What test kit or meter do you use?
Pat

colombiano81

08/05/2009, 10:54 AM

sreefs: just to confirm: it's this one, right?:

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=HI-93713&Category_Code=Hanna

sreefs

08/05/2009, 11:21 AM

Yes!

chilwil84

08/29/2009, 07:29 AM

bump

anyone else try testing some cans?

Orr2003

08/29/2009, 10:48 AM

I use two 44g gray rubbermaid brute cans. One for RO/DI top off water and one for making NSW for water changes. I have never tested either for phosphates since I dont have a hanna.

The brute I use for RO/DI is filled directly from my RO/DI unit.
The brute is filled almost full and this is used to top off my 400g DT until it is almost empty then refilled again. I keep the lid on the brute always and only open it see if the brute needs refilled.
What I have noticed is that when I open the lid to see if it needs refilled I can smell a bad smell. The smell is like when you do a load of laundry in the washer but forget to put them in the dryer for a day or two. It smells like mildew or something.

Anyone else notice this?
I leave the lid cracked now and I dont get that smell.

rtbm

08/29/2009, 12:26 PM

it seems there are more people saying they have been using the grey brutes for some time now with basicly no ill affects to there tank. Myself included. My sw sits in two 35 gallon brutes for a month before I use it, every month for a long time now. I'd like the people who have been using them for a while and are having serious phoshpate issues to chime in. I think this ones being overblown.

luther1200

08/29/2009, 04:33 PM

Even if they do leach a minor amount of PO4. You probably add 10x that amount with each feeding.

But maybe these are better for people who are worried about it.

http://www.rubbermaidforless.com/foodservice-brute-only-container-category-13_251.html

noboddi

08/29/2009, 04:44 PM

Eric Borneman has found that Brute Cans have other issues and should not be used

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic101230-9-1.aspx

luther1200

08/29/2009, 05:09 PM

I was just looking at a Maxi jet and thought that the plastic looks kind off similar to the brute cans. Does anybody know if it is?

GrampaDon

08/29/2009, 08:09 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15615916#post15615916 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by noboddi
Eric Borneman has found that Brute Cans have other issues and should not be used

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic101230-9-1.aspx

Thanks for the link ,good to know. I have been following this thread and was concerned since i recently purchased 2 brute's.
I let my RO sit for a week ,then tested it. But found no phosphates [API high range] But the TDS went from 0 to 3
So something is going on and needs watching.

CreepySalt

08/29/2009, 08:46 PM

I guess if people are concerned about Brutes maybe they should use something else but..... they have been used by almost every fish store and many, many reefers for years..... and years...... and years and will continue to be.

Reeferon

08/29/2009, 09:04 PM

it seems like the best option is to use glass. such as an old aquarium.

noboddi

08/29/2009, 09:47 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15617112#post15617112 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CreepySalt
I guess if people are concerned about Brutes maybe they should use something else but..... they have been used by almost every fish store and many, many reefers for years..... and years...... and years and will continue to be.

Borneman in his post says that the troubling part is that brutes are used in science all the time; but he can definitely attribute the loss of a coral spawn to brutes - the gametes were killed by the brutes.

Interesting post. I went back to glass

MrSandman

08/29/2009, 09:52 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15617229#post15617229 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reeferon
it seems like the best option is to use glass. such as an old aquarium.

Or acrylic.

luther1200

08/29/2009, 10:33 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15617463#post15617463 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by noboddi
Borneman in his post says that the troubling part is that brutes are used in science all the time; but he can definitely attribute the loss of a coral spawn to brutes - the gametes were killed by the brutes.

Interesting post. I went back to glass

But that was just 1 incident. No matter how reliable the source. And he wasn't actually looking for that it was just after he had issue's they started looking around. And who knows what could have happened to that can previously. Maybe it got contaminated at HD before he got it or something. I think we need more evidence before I will rule them out.

luther1200

08/29/2009, 10:44 PM

double

noboddi

08/29/2009, 10:49 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15617631#post15617631 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by luther1200
But that was just 1 incident. No matter how reliable the source. And he wasn't actually looking for that it was just after he had issue's they started looking around. And who knows what could have happened to that can previously. Maybe it got contaminated at HD before he got it or something. I think we need more evidence before I will rule them out.

You could be absolutely right. I'ts just not worth the risk to me is all.

colombiano81

09/15/2009, 04:04 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15614498#post15614498 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Orr2003
I use two 44g gray rubbermaid brute cans. One for RO/DI top off water and one for making NSW for water changes. I have never tested either for phosphates since I dont have a hanna.

The brute I use for RO/DI is filled directly from my RO/DI unit.
The brute is filled almost full and this is used to top off my 400g DT until it is almost empty then refilled again. I keep the lid on the brute always and only open it see if the brute needs refilled.
What I have noticed is that when I open the lid to see if it needs refilled I can smell a bad smell. The smell is like when you do a load of laundry in the washer but forget to put them in the dryer for a day or two. It smells like mildew or something.

Anyone else notice this?
I leave the lid cracked now and I dont get that smell.

I've noticed the same thing with mine. I sometimes let my water mix in my 44gal brute up to a month (i know- i've recently lagged w my water changes- I've commited myself to do weekly/bi-weekly changes from now on- we'll see how that goes....)

When I snap the lid closed and leave it like that for several days (1 week +) i notice the "damp" odor. not to mention lot's of condensation on the top of the lid also, which usually makes a mess whenever i take the lid off. I've been thinking about drilling a couple of small holes on the lid to eliminate the smell.

Bottom line, I love the convenience of mixing large batches of SW in the brute cans. i also bought the wheels that are available for these cans. It's the best thing ever! Hauling around 5 gal buckets or water jugs was very uncomfortable and messy.

One other thing i have noticed is the "bateria growth" or brown slime that you get on the walls of the can and any equipment you have in the water. I've read here on RC that it's normal- and I asked my LFS and they said they get that all the time. I guess it's normal....