is ich alays present in saltwater fish tank?

[ctenophors rule]

my understanding of ich is that it can be on fish indefinately, and is always trying to infect fish, but as long as they stay heathy it will not ...kindof like thethree percent of parasitic bateria on humans that can only infect if we are weekend by an injury or disease....

thank you for your responses......bye!

[spamreefnew]

i dont know if it has ever been proven either way? but i do know that i have had or do have ich in my system. i use garlic in the food and never ever see a white spot. my fish are all over 3 yrs old:)

[NCSUsalt]

in probably 99% of people's tanks, yes.

the 1% that religiously QT everything before it goes into their tank no.

[JHemdal]

I agree with NCSUsalt - In cases where we have tanks that have not had new animals added to them in 6+ months, we just don't see Cryptocaryon. Our quarantine period is > 6 weeks and we always QT with copper. This is NOT the case with all protozoans - Uronema can be isolated from tanks years after the last fish was added. It's a facultative parasite though, so when it isn't infecting fish, its busy eating bacteria and such.

Jay

[HighlandReefer]

The ich parasite is present in small numbers in most aquariums. Usually they are not a problem. If fish get an ich infestation and survive it, then they will build-up a resistance to it and usually do not get it again.

This article goes into more details about ich in an aquarium system:

Ich: An Old Cure for an Old Disease
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Ranson_Ich.html

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15415249#post15415249 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HighlandReefer
Ich: An Old Cure for an Old Disease
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Ranson_Ich.html

Cliff,

That article is on the FW ich, Ichthyophthirius. While our SW beast is Cryptocaryon irritans. Similar life cycles, but entirely different critters ;)

[jenglish]

I'm going to be the voice of dissent here and say that it is not always in a tank. It can be eliminated from a tank and never reintroduced. As to how common it is... well it is obviously pretty common or there wouldn't be 3 threads a day in Noob and GRD about ich. If I had to guess, (and this is totally a guess) I would say a third to half of tanks have it.

WIth a proper microscope you could theoretically scrape you fish's gills but for the most part it is hard to tell if your fish has it if it is not stressed. I could only 100% prove my fish don't have it by stressing it to death without ever seeing a bloom. Not worth it to prove a point :D

[waynem]

I had ich years ago in my tank, one fish died rest survived. Just recently I move them all to a new tank at my new house and what do you know the ich came back.

Its only on the Tangs and it must have been the stress of moving / catching / new home that did it.

Not one sign for years, perfect water conditions and it never went away.

[Eric the half-bee]

My experience is ich is always laying under the radar. I've experienced ich only on my tangs usually when a new tang is added. Once the new addition fits in, the ich disappears...

[jenglish]

Crypto is obligate, it needs fish to survive and complete it's life cycle. When you aren't seeing it, it is still completing it's life cycle in the gills and mucus membranes of the fish. People speculate whethor these subclinical infections cause harm or discomfort to the fish. I don't think that has really been proved one way or another.

THe longest crypto has been seen to survive w/o fish is 72 days at cold temp. a fallow period of 60 days will get rid of 99.9% of cases if the fish are treated seperately with copper, hypo, or tank transfer method. There is a guy named Lee Birch who did research on crypto in like the 70s and has had home aquariums free of ich for over 30 years.

[wayne in norway]

No. Burgess examined Crypt cultures and if they were isolated from other C. irritans cultures toavoid renewing the genetic virility they tended to become progressively weaker, and then died out after approx. 22 life cycles. If you haven't added any fish in a couple of years, or have qt'ed everytihng for that sort of time period properly then it's probably died out in the tank.
Academic searches for C. irritans reveal a lot of interesting things on the infection, and it's variability in appearance and characteristics. And it's omnipresence in low levels on wild caught fish.

[HighlandReefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15415918#post15415918 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
Cliff,

That article is on the FW ich, Ichthyophthirius. While our SW beast is Cryptocaryon irritans. Similar life cycles, but entirely different critters ;)

Thanks Bill, for pointing that out. ;)

[greenbean36191]

No. Burgess examined Crypt cultures and if they were isolated from other C. irritans cultures toavoid renewing the genetic virility they tended to become progressively weaker, and then died out after approx. 22 life cycles.
Yes, but this hasn't been replicated by other authors, who have been able to maintain cultures for longer. It may be real, or it may be an artifact of Burgess' method or the strains (species?) used. Hobbyists shouldn't count on ich just dying off in their tanks after a while.

[billsreef]

Bottom line, if you want an ich free tank, QT from the start and you'll never have it in your display tank ;)

[RegalAngel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15418306#post15418306 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
Bottom line, if you want an ich free tank, QT from the start and you'll never have it in your display tank ;)

If you do use a QT is there an additive, etc. that should be used to make sure the pest is not present when the fish is transferred to the DT? ie Hypo salinity; NO-ICH, etc. Or just observe and after ~4 weeks if nothing observed, transfer.

[billsreef]

Treating with hypo or copper will eliminate any ich.

[tspors]

Ich/Crypto is present in all tanks at varying levels. The key is to keep fish healthy and non stressed. Like you in your worls bacteria exisits but you avoid it by staying healthy. A healthy non stressed fish can live around the Crypto without being infected. QT is not the answer to avoid Crypto. QT can add stress. QT is a personal choice with unknown results.

[jenglish]

I respectfully disagree. QT is not a choice that is unproven. Is QT stressful? It can be depending on the species, and I don't reccomend it for 100% of species. But Crypto is not in every tank. If it is not in a tank no amount of stress will make it magically appear. I could certainly stress my fish to death... but they would not die from ich.


I run a chance of infecting my tank in that I run a 6 week observational QT and don't treat w/o reason to. But if I did introduce ich I have enough QT room to pull everything out and treat it and re-establish a crypto free system.

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15423506#post15423506 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jenglish
I respectfully disagree.

x2

The science and lots of persanal experience back what Jenglish, greenbean, myself, and several others have said about this. It is easy to run a Crypto free tank just be using a proper QT procedure. It is also easy to infect a healthy fish with Crypto, so while keeping your fish healthy and stress free is always better, it is not the key to preventing Crypto. QT is far from having unknown results and does not add stress if properly set up. There is a reason why professional aquarist take the time and resources to QT ;)

[lostintheocean]

ich free and loving it. I have never had ich. i have had 2 different tanks and in the hobby the past 7 years. I always quarienteen (sp)

[billsreef]

:thumbsup:

[Superstretch18]

Possibly OT, but worth asking:

Has anyone seen any research with regards to ich tomonts (or protomonts) being tranfered via coral / live rock / live sand additions? I see how it's possible, but has this been explored or has anyone experienced it?

[evsalty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15425443#post15425443 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Superstretch18
Possibly OT, but worth asking:

Has anyone seen any research with regards to ich tomonts (or protomonts) being tranfered via coral / live rock / live sand additions? I see how it's possible, but has this been explored or has anyone experienced it? I have often wondered about that myself. It is said to need a fish host but it is also known that it will continue/finish it's life cycle even without the fish host. I QT w/copper on all fish but obviously can't with corals and inverts.

[jenglish]

Ich can be brought in on rock sand or a coral. The chances are pretty small on a coral but pretty decent with sand. If you QT in standard conditons for 6 weeks you can be 99% sure the ich has died off w/o a fish host

[Gwynhidwy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15425443#post15425443 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Superstretch18
Possibly OT, but worth asking:

Has anyone seen any research with regards to ich tomonts (or protomonts) being tranfered via coral / live rock / live sand additions? I see how it's possible, but has this been explored or has anyone experienced it?

I have had this happen to me. I had a well established tank that had no new additions for over eight months, no new fish had been added for over a year. I had treated all the fish in the tank with copper during quarantine and had seen no signs of ich, despite the stress of completely rearranging the rockwork at one point. I added a frag that was attached to a small piece of live rock. I then had a major outbreak of ich. All the fish were affected and were removed for treatment.

Certainly not a scientific study, but I did not see any other source for the Crypt and there were no stresses to trigger an outbreak of existing parasites, which shouldn't have existed in the tank since I had treated each fish prior to introduction to the DT anyway. I now quarantine everything, but I am admittedly a little nuts.

Proper quarantine is your fish' friend. :)

[syrinx]

It does remain in the tank. The science here is junk- well not junk it proves that they need a host..The key is that it may be one spot on one fish every 8 months- kind of like when we have a cold. The spot may be under a opperculum or some other place you can`t see. There for it is present and will wait until a stress on the fish creates its oportunity to arise. I had a tank go 7 yrs without a fish introduction get wiped out when the tank got 60 degrees in a winter storm- and it always had a UV running as well as proper QT for all the fish. I have seen numerous other cases- but this one happened to me- so I can document it.

[greenbean36191]

How does that make the science junk? Your experience is not at all inconsistent with what is known empirically. It is well established that fish can host incipient populations of parasites without an outbreak occurring, exactly as you describe.

There is absolutely zero question though that the parasite can be eradicated completely from a tank.

[wooden_reefer]

Ich is very common in new fish. I assume that all new fish carry it.

It is absent in my tank. I have not had a single case of ich in more than 20 years.

I believe ich infestation is not strongly correlated with resistance of fish, it is rather a matter of chance, geometry of the tank, and simple math.

I, automatically without any doubt and debate, set out to destroy the very last ich organism of new fish by the tried and reliable method of long duration of treatment and isolation.

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15426958#post15426958 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
Ich is very common in new fish. I assume that all new fish carry it.

Parasites in general are all too common in wild caught fish. Not just Crypt either. There are even pests that plague corals, such as nudi's, flatworms and red bugs. Really makes sense to QT everything that goes into the display tank when you think about it.

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15426702#post15426702 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
There is absolutely zero question though that the parasite can be eradicated completely from a tank.

Indeed. The only question really is, is the aquarist willing to put in the necessary time and effort? IMO it goes right back to the old saying "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". In other words, it's far easier to prevent an outbreak in the display tank than it is to cure one ;)

[jenglish]

I have seen varying numbers on the amount of fish infected with crypto when harvested. I think one set of data was 15% overall but 30% of tangs.... I can't remember where I read that.

Bill, Bean, or anyone else, Do you maybe have some of that data? :)

[syrinx]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15426702#post15426702 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
How does that make the science junk? Your experience is not at all inconsistent with what is known empirically. It is well established that fish can host incipient populations of parasites without an outbreak occurring, exactly as you describe.

There is absolutely zero question though that the parasite can be eradicated completely from a tank.

Of course if one was willing to kill and necropsy their fish it would prove that a tank could be totally ich free- but until those studies are done I will hold the phone. Still the science proves a tank without fish cannot have ich persist for long-which is not junk science obviously- but not applicable to the situation we are in with display tanks.

[jenglish]

well, we don't have the equipment at hobby level to see sub clinical infections in the gills and mucous membranes, but studies have been done at that level. Copper/hypo/TTM are all proven to remove crypto from a fish in HT (while your DT goes through a long enough fallow period to kill off the ich in there). Now at an individual level I can't be 100% sure that my fish are crypto free, I know it is possible and I can go through actions supported in published literature that are 99.9% effective and sleep pretty well that the fish are ich free. I'm not even that sure I don't have the swine flu :lol:

[KarlBob]

You could have had swine flu. Bird flu, too. If you didn't get any sicker than a regular flu, and nobody shipped samples of your virii to the CDC, then you'd never know.

[ctenophors rule]

thanks for all the replies! this is great info, and much of it is in agreance with that on WWM....

my next question, which i meant to ask earlier...will chorine kill ich?

sy you drain a tank with ich, and you dump chlorine in it for a week, adding a daily dose..will it die within a week?

[HighlandReefer]

This article goes into more detail about the use of chlorine to kill microbes. Generaly, bleach will brake down in the water in about 24 hrs. So repeat the dose every 24 hrs. if you wish to make sure.

Sterilization (microbiology)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(microbiology)

[HighlandReefer]

Bill,

I am curious as to what method or methods you use to quarantine against ich type diseases? I have read threads where one needs to take the fish out and place it in another tank and so on to make sure you rid the different stages of development. :)

[KarlBob]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15432231#post15432231 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ctenophors rule
my next question, which i meant to ask earlier...will chorine kill ich? sy you drain a tank with ich, and you dump chlorine in it for a week, adding a daily dose..will it die within a week?
Yes, with a strong enough dose it would probably die. Unfortunately, so would your live rock, any corals in the tank, the live sand, any bioballs you might have, your 'pods and worms, etc. Then you would need to cycle the tank, re-seed it with live rock and live sand, and basically start over from scratch. It's an option, but I'd call it a nuclear option - a last resort because it kills everyone and everything.

If you're willing to go that far, it might be easier to drain the tank and leave it dry for a month or two, then start over. You could also start a new display tank, put all of your fish in there after treating them with copper, wait for the ich parasites to die, then sell the old tank to someone else. I think those are roughly on the same level of severity as the bleach idea.

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15433122#post15433122 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HighlandReefer
Bill,

I am curious as to what method or methods you use to quarantine against ich type diseases? I have read threads where one needs to take the fish out and place it in another tank and so on to make sure you rid the different stages of development. :)

I typically QT using hyposalinity for Crypt and close observation to uncover any other nasties.

[ctenophors rule]

so, the article on wikipedia doesn't go to far into the amount of time the bleach must be in the system....

say i drained the tank to within an inch of a one inch sand bed. i then pour enough pool chlorine to raise the water level a quarter of an inch...stir the around..say with top off from tap water and continued addition of bleach, how long will i need to wait for ich to die? would a week do it?

[HighlandReefer]

Most microbes will die according to the article in 20 minutes when the dilution factor is correct. Bleach will brake down in 24 hrs. I would think adding the proper amount of bleach for the volume of water you have and letting it set for 24 hrs and then repeat the proccess would be more than enough. I would recommed using a product to remove the chlorine from your LFS to make sure you get all the chlorine out after treatment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Chlorine bleach is another accepted liquid sterilizing agent. Household bleach consists of 5.25% sodium hypochlorite. It is usually diluted to 1/10 immediately before use; however to kill Mycobacterium tuberculosis it should be diluted only 1/5, and 1/2.5 (1 part bleach and 1.5 parts water) to inactivate prions. The dilution factor must take into account the volume of any liquid waste that it is being used to sterilize.[10] Bleach will kill many organisms immediately, but for full sterilization it should be allowed to react for 20 minutes. Bleach will kill many, but not all spores. It is highly corrosive and may corrode even stainless steel surgical instruments. Bleach decomposes over time when exposed to air, so fresh solutions should be made daily. [11]"

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Bill for the reply. ;)

[ctenophors rule]

ok thanks highland, i was confuse by that part...

well three days of chlorine treatment later, i will start removing it...ad i willseed thr tank with sand...

thanks everyone for th help, and now i have a proper understanding of ich.

take care....tommy

[tmz]

I think the question is how resitant the cysts casings will be. The freee I know that 3 hours+ of freshwater without chliorine will pentrate them and kill the encysted parasite.

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15427772#post15427772 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
Parasites in general are all too common in wild caught fish. Not just Crypt either. There are even pests that plague corals, such as nudi's, flatworms and red bugs. Really makes sense to QT everything that goes into the display tank when you think about it.

Ich is rather different due to its lifecycle. Critical are that first, it voluntarily leaves the host, a very strigent form of birth control (99.9% of children die in the ocean) second, it multiplies in great numbers all at once. Thus, the confinement of the tank completely changed this ecological factor. Ich is not a disease in the ocean. All parasites that has this chacracteristics should be eradicated if possible, if not, the whole hobby will have far fewer successful followers.

I do not eradicate pathogenic bacteria, it is impossible. Pathogenic bacteria do not voluntarily leave the host, so in terms of ecology fish must have reliable resistance against it even in the ocean. Otherwise, there would be far fewer fish in the ocean.

In the ocean, fish does not need much or improved resistance against ich. It is not surprising that resistance against ich is not reliable in the confinement of the tank. Eradication is the only reliable means against ich in the long run.

[greenbean36191]

I have seen varying numbers on the amount of fish infected with crypto when harvested. I think one set of data was 15% overall but 30% of tangs.... I can't remember where I read that.
Well it varies considerably depending on species obviously, but it's been documented in 1/3- 3/4 of fish (not ornamentals) in an area. Of course, most of these cases were subclinical. Ironically, the infection rate is significantly higher in areas with reduced salinity, yet thousands of hobbyists still run their tanks at reduced salinities based on the downright bad assumption that slower salinities will help with diseases somehow.

[goldmaniac]

I've been working with an ich-free tank for a year now. I made it ich-free by removing all fish for a 3-month period.

no chlorine necessary.

I'm now QT'ing all fish with hypo (1.009-1.010) for a 4-5 week period. From everything I've read, this will ensure I only add ich-free fish back into the display tank.

I believe it is futile, however, as I expect to eventually make a mistake and put a frag or piece of live rock or new macroalgae that's wet with water from another tank that contains ich, and BAM! it's introduced again.

And from all the effort I'm putting into QT'ing all fishfor 6 weeks at a time, I say...

"a half-pound of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

it's much more effort than just an ounce of prevention.

[ctenophors rule]

what about doing the tank to tank method?

if you put a fish in a ten gallon, for example, and leave it in their for one day, then swap it into a new ten gallon, and completely drain and clean the orriginal, you do this for 7-10 days..and you have an iuch free fish...right? the ich cyst takes 2-10 days to hatch, so their u go! the ich falls off in the 7-10 day period, whether it is present or not. shazam, now we are less than an ounce.

or is their something wrong with this?

[tmz]

The tank transfer method requires 4 transfers ,one every 3 days to insure all the parasites have a chance to leave the fish and no cysts get time to decyst and reinfect. Each time a tank is vacated , it must be drained and cleaned and thorougly dried or refilled with fresh water and left to soak for at least 3 hours to insure any cysts in it are destroyed.

[goldmaniac]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15469288#post15469288 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
The tank transfer method requires 4 transfers ,one every 3 days to insure all the parasites have a chance to leave the fish and no cysts get time to decyst and reinfect. Each time a tank is vacated , it must be drained and cleaned and thorougly dried or refilled with fresh water and left to soak for at least 3 hours to insure any cysts in it are destroyed.

+1

I find that emptying the QT tanks and simply filling with fresh water and letting it sit overnight is much more reliable than trying to dry out the tank completely.

That said, I think i mortally injured a hippo tang during capture when I tried the Transfer Method. I'm just no good at capture; maybe the Hippos are particularly wilya and gave me extra trouble.

I've learned to be patient and hypo new arrivals.

[tylorarm]

"It is absent in my tank. I have not had a single case of ich in more than 20 years."

Wooden_reefer, what's your procedures that have created the success you describe above? I've failed twice now, once by skipping my usual QT for an expensive fish that turned out infected. And once where i QT'd everything, zero spots for more than a year from any new additions then huge outbreak after a move. I assume the last outbreak was either the results of a non-fish introduction or just i had carriers for all that time that were handling the infection without showing symptoms. I'm leaving tank fallow for 2+ months this time and all new entrants (including surviving fish) will go through 3 wks cupramine & 1 wk prazipro. However, I'd like to hear about your successful technique, as can't do much better than 20+ years ich free.

[evsalty]

QT'ing without the use of hypo or chemicals/copper is just observation and the fish can still be hosts even if there is nothing visible.

[tylorarm]

Exactly why i've lost the faith in QT without treatment.

[evsalty]

Chemicals today help keep parasites away! LOL

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15476968#post15476968 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tylorarm
"It is absent in my tank. I have not had a single case of ich in more than 20 years."

Wooden_reefer, what's your procedures that have created the success you describe above? I've failed twice now, once by skipping my usual QT for an expensive fish that turned out infected. And once where i QT'd everything, zero spots for more than a year from any new additions then huge outbreak after a move. I assume the last outbreak was either the results of a non-fish introduction or just i had carriers for all that time that were handling the infection without showing symptoms. I'm leaving tank fallow for 2+ months this time and all new entrants (including surviving fish) will go through 3 wks cupramine & 1 wk prazipro. However, I'd like to hear about your successful technique, as can't do much better than 20+ years ich free.

For most of the years I used Cu. I use straight Copper sulfate hydrate. Now I start with Cu and slowly reach hypo.

Some say you must maintain Cu level but I don't. I don't disagree as it makes sense. For me, however, I pulse it to 0.3ppm and then just expect it to precipitate to 0.1 and so and I pulse again, likely every three days. This method is very easy so I tend to do it for a long time and without any reluctance. Little water change, few tests, just time. I quarantine against ich for 8-12 weeks depending on the temp and if the fish showed ich to start with.

I always cycle the filter medium intended for QT very very well. There is never any ammonia in QT.

Plus I never use liverock as the filter medium in QT. I use crushed oyster shell wrapped in a well-stretched out nylon panty hose. These are my nitrification balls, about size of large orange or small grapefruit. I either drip water over them or place them in a large HOT power box filter.

[tylorarm]

That's a very long QT but great results, thanks for sharing.

[HighlandReef]

agreed...good thread

[wooden_reefer]

It all works together.

I have make the point several times of never using the gradual live fish method to cycle. If you still use this silly method you are helpless.

Having a high nitrification capacity allows me to quarantine many fish all at once. As many as I care to, can find or plan to etc.


This also eases compatibility problem as all are newcomers. Less fighting means fewer wounds, fewer chances for external bacterial infection. I always also use UV against external bacterial infection for the duration of eradicating ich.

Beginners who still ask,"what are those salt dots" better not quarantine many fish at once, however. There is always learning and tuition, but for those who are well-versed with disease treatment medication and eqipment, there is no reason to buy and quarantine fish one or two at a time. Put all or most of your eggs in one basket and then watch it very well, do a thorough job, and get it over with.

[ctenophors rule]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15477211#post15477211 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by evsalty
QT'ing without the use of hypo or chemicals/copper is just observation and the fish can still be hosts even if there is nothing visible.

why doesn't the tank to tank method mentioned above work for you?

[evsalty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15481235#post15481235 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ctenophors rule
why doesn't the tank to tank method mentioned above work for you?

I never said anything about the tank transfer method. I also have never used it before so this is merely speculation but from what I gather in order for the tank to tank method to work you would be doing this in a hypo enviroment or else what would cause the cysts to fall off/release. Just putting a fish in another tank that is set up to match your DT is not going to promote the release of the cyst. Also ICH does not just live on the outer body surfaces of the fish so just because you can not see it does not mean that it is not present. It will live in the mucous membrains and the gills.

[jener8tionx]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15483331#post15483331 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by evsalty
I never said anything about the tank transfer method. I also have never used it before so this is merely speculation but from what I gather in order for the tank to tank method to work you would be doing this in a hypo enviroment or else what would cause the cysts to fall off/release. Just putting a fish in another tank that is set up to match your DT is not going to promote the release of the cyst. Also ICH does not just live on the outer body surfaces of the fish so just because you can not see it does not mean that it is not present. It will live in the mucous membrains and the gills.

I disagree. In theory the tank transfer method is rock solid. You are changing tanks every 3 days or so and ich will eventually leave the host. When it does, the fish will not be in that tank/water long enough for ich to find its way back to a host fish as the fish is removed. Unless you are saying that the ich never leaves the fish at any part of its life cycle or that it will reattach in a 3 day window, I don't see your point.

[evsalty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15483573#post15483573 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jener8tionx
I disagree. In theory the tank transfer method is rock solid. You are changing tanks every 3 days or so and ich will eventually leave the host. When it does, the fish will not be in that tank/water long enough for ich to find its way back to a host fish as the fish is removed. Unless you are saying that the ich never leaves the fish at any part of its life cycle or that it will reattach in a 3 day window, I don't see your point. Once again I never said it doesn't work and I DID say that I have never used it. Prior to the above post I never ever even metion the tank transfer method so I do not know why I have even been questioned about it in the first place. So in short I never said it will or won't work but I do know that the initial topc of this thread was "is ich always present". So with that in mind if you find that you have an infected fish in the tank then just tank transfer is not going to remove it from the DT. It may help the one fish you put thru it but what about the rest in your DT.

My origionaly statement that somehow got me involved in the tank transfer method was saying that you either prevent it first via hypo or chemicals or you are just observing the fish and do not no for sure that there is no ich present on your fish.

[tmz]

I have lost considerable confidence in hypo even at1.009 for 6 weeks. There are many reports of resistant strains. On several occasions ich has persisted through it in my experience.The long qt confinement in low salinity may also be harmful, since the kidneys and other organs are largely inactive when the external salinity approaches the fish's internal salinity(1.008). Bound copper treatments such as Cupramine are my preference but I'm tending toward tank transfer. Certainly more natural but labor intensive.

[JHemdal]

Tom,

Add to that the fact that Uronema is much more prevalent during hyposalinity, and those are two really good reasons not to employ this method. The third reason, as you mention is that 1.009 is too close to the lethal lower limit for some fish - all it takes is a slightly out-of-calibration S.G. meter and you've killed some fish.

However, I am also not a proponent for the tank transfer method - the theory is good, but the application is flawed. First, no matter how much we all nag people, not enough of them quarantine their fish - usually citing lack of time and resources. The tank transfer method just makes that more likely of an issue.
It also makes the assumption that all of the Cryptocaryon organisms are on the same schedule, when in reality, once an infection gets going, you'll find all stages at all times. I've isolated tomites from fish mucus, so the idea that they are ALL shed into the water isn't true. I rank the tank transfer method there with a GOOD UV system, it can help in minor/early outbreaks, but it won't cure an acute infection.

I use organically bound copper for my routine quarantine, ionic copper for active infections and have recently been getting back into using Chloroquine (after a 30 year hiatus).


Jay

[tmz]

Well, I would also note hypo is not effective against amyloodinium ocellatum (velvet) since this dinoflagellate lives across a range of salinities including brackish water. Copper works on velvet.

Neither copper nor hypo are useful in treating flukes, uronema or booklynella which are pretty common.Prazi pro works on flukes but I still use formalin for the other two.

As for tank transfer ,I don't think parasites will stay in/on a fish for 12 days.Movement through 4 parasite free tanks should isolate them all while they are off the fish and leave them behind.If this were not the case copper treatments which target free swimming parasites would need to be of much longer duration than the current 14 day regimen. Unlike even a large uv which is largely ineffective since it only targets the free swimming phase and only parssites passing through it , tank transfer leaves all the encysted parasites and free swimmers behind.

Copper has worked for me for ich and vlevet. Formalin works on the skin based diseases pretty well. Prazi pro helps .

Currently I use prazi pro prophylactically during the first 10 days of observation. In addition to it's lethal effect on flukes, it may also help with internal parasites such as intesnstinal worms.


Depending on the species and any symptoms noted during this 10 days ; it's on to copper ,formalin , tank transfer or another 3 weeks of quarantine without treatment.

[wooden_reefer]

Tank transfer method is too much work and also very stressful to many fish.

Many fish will not eat until 48 hours after being handled.

BTW, I have not used a net to catch fish for over 25 years. I always use the large clear plastic bag method, and move slowly.

[tmz]

It is labor intensive but I think tank transfer is potentially less stressful than copper treatment if gentle capture is done. It is not very hard to capture a fish when the water level is low and there are no hiding places in the tank.
I would not dump any water from tank to tank if you use a cup or plastic bag. My fish eat right away. Shipped fish and those introduced into a tank with other fish may take a while but not when simply and gently transferred to a tank with matched water in my experience.

[tylorarm]

I think whether or not it works the tank transfer method is heroic but too much work for me. How about:

30 minute formalin bath 1ml to 1 gal with aeration upon arrival
Put in QT until eating, then 3wks cupramine at directed level
Subsequently 5 day prazi then repeat as directed
This should kill ich, velvet, flukes and perhaps internal parasites. Hopefully Brook should either get killed by formalin dip, or if it makes it past that then should show itself during rest of QT period at which time it can be dealt with with series of formalin baths. Any snails or corals and such seperate QT without fish for a 6 wk period should do the trick. Then, assuming some fish surive the QT, fish parasite (ich, velvent, brook) free tank?

[tylorarm]

Oh, another question. Can fish be Brook carriers like fish appear to be able to be non-symptomatic carriers of ich?

[tmz]

Don't know wether brooklynella can be carried in undetected.

Your protocol should work well.
Why 3 weeks of cupramine instead of two? I've used 40 min formalin baths numerous times without ill effect .
I've used Formalin 3 which is a 3% solution of formaldahyde at 10ml per gallon in a bucket with a powerhead . I beleive most other formalin products are 37% formaldahyde. So about .8 ml per gallon should do.

[ctenophors rule]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15483331#post15483331 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by evsalty
I never said anything about the tank transfer method. I also have never used it before so this is merely speculation but from what I gather in order for the tank to tank method to work you would be doing this in a hypo enviroment or else what would cause the cysts to fall off/release. Just putting a fish in another tank that is set up to match your DT is not going to promote the release of the cyst. Also ICH does not just live on the outer body surfaces of the fish so just because you can not see it does not mean that it is not present. It will live in the mucous membrains and the gills.

cyst don't stay on a fish indefinately!

[ctenophors rule]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15488746#post15488746 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JHemdal
Tom,

Add to that the fact that Uronema is much more prevalent during hyposalinity, and those are two really good reasons not to employ this method. The third reason, as you mention is that 1.009 is too close to the lethal lower limit for some fish - all it takes is a slightly out-of-calibration S.G. meter and you've killed some fish.

However, I am also not a proponent for the tank transfer method - the theory is good, but the application is flawed. First, no matter how much we all nag people, not enough of them quarantine their fish - usually citing lack of time and resources. The tank transfer method just makes that more likely of an issue.
It also makes the assumption that all of the Cryptocaryon organisms are on the same schedule, when in reality, once an infection gets going, you'll find all stages at all times. I've isolated tomites from fish mucus, so the idea that they are ALL shed into the water isn't true. I rank the tank transfer method there with a GOOD UV system, it can help in minor/early outbreaks, but it won't cure an acute infection.

I use organically bound copper for my routine quarantine, ionic copper for active infections and have recently been getting back into using Chloroquine (after a 30 year hiatus).

doesn't i take 2-3 days at least for a cyst that has fallen off to become 300 freeswimming larvae? if thats the case than a daily swap of water will eventualy leave you with an ichless fish..right?



Jay

[ctenophors rule]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15489679#post15489679 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
It is labor intensive but I think tank transfer is potentially less stressful than copper treatment if gentle capture is done. It is not very hard to capture a fish when the water level is low and there are no hiding places in the tank.
I would not dump any water from tank to tank if you use a cup or plastic bag. My fish eat right away. Shipped fish and those introduced into a tank with other fish may take a while but not when simply and gently transferred to a tank with matched water in my experience.

in the expeirience on those hat i know who have done it, the fish continued eating fine.

1. becase they were taken from an empty ten gallon tank, and put into another empty ten gallon tank, with equal water parameters...which leaves absolutely no chance of shock.

2. they caught them gently with a collection cup.

a net should never be used, if it can be avoided.

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15492031#post15492031 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ctenophors rule
cyst don't stay on a fish indefinately! :) Actualy, the parasites encyst and multiply after they leave the fish.

[ctenophors rule]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15493167#post15493167 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
:) Actualy, the parasites encyst and multiply after they leave the fish.

thats what i was saying. lol the cyst fall off and begin multiplying then. after 3-10 days they become freeswimming once more, depending on temp.

his arguement on why it didn't work seemed to rely on a cyst staying on the fish indefinately.

[evsalty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15493398#post15493398 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ctenophors rule
thats what i was saying. lol the cyst fall off and begin multiplying then. after 3-10 days they become freeswimming once more, depending on temp.

his arguement on why it didn't work seemed to rely on a cyst staying on the fish indefinately. I NEVER SAID IT DID NOT WORK. Seriously get that thru your head!!!!! I also never mentioned it until after you for some odd reason asked me why I thought it did not work.

[goldmaniac]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15483331#post15483331 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by evsalty
I never said anything about the tank transfer method. I also have never used it before so this is merely speculation but from what I gather in order for the tank to tank method to work you would be doing this in a hypo enviroment or else what would cause the cysts to fall off/release. Just putting a fish in another tank that is set up to match your DT is not going to promote the release of the cyst. Also ICH does not just live on the outer body surfaces of the fish so just because you can not see it does not mean that it is not present. It will live in the mucous membrains and the gills.

you kinda did. I think it might be a combination of the way you type out your posts and maybe also the level of your understanding of the ich life cycle.
The Transfer method does not need hyposalinity to work. I believe this is what others are referring to when they're saying that you're saying it doesn't work.

I have no intention of blasting you here, nor do I mean to insult your knowledge. But I've had to read a few of your posts more than once to understand what you're stating. hey - that could just be me, though.

[wooden_reefer]

Many fish will not eat if there are no hiding places for it to feel secure. And right after being handled. Some will; some won't.

Each time you transfer it you have to remove all hiding places.

This has nothing to do with physical or chemical environment, but mental to some fish.

[billsreef]

PVC pipe fittings make great QT hiding places. They clean and dry easily, and look alike which is great for the transfer method ;)

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15506788#post15506788 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
PVC pipe fittings make great QT hiding places. They clean and dry easily, and look alike which is great for the transfer method ;) :) I use them all the time. A pair of juvenile black ocellaris loved em in qt. The are now developing into a mated pair in a 30g breeder frag tank. I moved two pieces of 3 inch long 1.5inch pvc to their new home with them and propped a ceramic tile at the back for future egg laying. They hosted the pipes immediatley and have been enjoying them for about 6 mos. They ignore the corals in the tank, even the euphylia.

[ctenophors rule]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15477211#post15477211 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by evsalty
QT'ing without the use of hypo or chemicals/copper is just observation and the fish can still be hosts even if there is nothing visible.

this was why i thought you were disputing it.

the tank transfer method negates the use of these methods.....

[KarlBob]

Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I suspect evsalty's quote re: "just observation" was referring to quarantine by simply holding the fish in a separate tank, without any anti-ich techniques or medications, and watching to see whether ich spots appear on the fish.

Suggested revised sentence (subject to approval by evsalty, of course):
"QT'ing without the use of hypo, chemicals/copper, or other ich elimination methods is just observation and the fish can still be hosts even if there is nothing visible."

[goldmaniac]

While we're on this topic, I can confirm that my QT tank with 1.010 hyposalinity currently contains Ich that's attacking my Hippo Tang.

Hippo Tang has been in 1.009-1.010 salinity for 3 weeks.

Last week I did a water change on the display tank, and used the (good parameters) waste water to run a water change on my QT tanks.

Well, i guess that either ich has gotten back into my system while I've been adding corals these past 6 months, or there's a strain that survived the original QT'ing of the 1 or 2 residents in my display tank.

Regardless, after last week's water change on the QT tank, my Hippo Tang is loaded with an ich breakout for 3 days now. I've confirmed that salinity is 1.010 with a refractometer that has been calibrated with 35 ppt calibration fluid that i just bought last week, by coincidence. QT tanks have been at 1.010 for 3 weeks.

ICH IS SURVIVING AND MULTIPLYING IN 1.009-1.010 salinity

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1687314

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15517500#post15517500 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by goldmaniac
While we're on this topic, I can confirm that my QT tank with

Last week I did a water change on the display tank, and used the (good parameters) waste water to run a water change on my QT tanks.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1687314

I think this is not a good idea. Even fishless a DT can have the last wave of ich in the water. Medication or hypo in QT may not be instantaneously effective.

Just think carefully about the ich lifecycle.

[goldmaniac]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15517605#post15517605 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
I think this is not a good idea. Even fishless a DT can have the last wave of ich in the water. Medication or hypo in QT may not be instantaneously effective.

Just think carefully about the ich lifecycle.

The display tank was fish-less for 4 months, from September until after Christmas.

The Hippo Tang was in an initial QT tank for 2 weeks while slowly decreasing salinity, then kept at 1.009 for 2-3 days, and then moved to the current QT #2 tank, and has been in there since July 14th.

What is it about the lifecycle are you referring to, rather than alluding to something that I'm not thinking of?

Regardless, that's hardly the point. Ich cysts are supposedly destroyed with 1.009-1.010 hypo, which is clearly not happening here.

where/when I reintroduced Ich back into the Display tank in the past 8 months is a different matter. I've focused on adding corals while my tank has been empty of fish, and some Ich cysts could have gotten thru the various 5-10 minute dips I've been using for zoas and SPS corals I've been adding. I don't know how else to QT SPS corals FROM ICH except having a QT tank with lighting and filtration and flow appropriate for housing SPS for 4-8 weeks. yeah, right.

[tmz]

I have had several occaisons when ich survived well managed hypo treatments. I've lost confidence in it. Copper has always worked for me.

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15517889#post15517889 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by goldmaniac
The display tank was fish-less for 4 months, from September until after Christmas.

What is it about the lifecycle are you referring to, rather than alluding to something that I'm not thinking of?



4 months should be OK. I was just refering to the fact that a fishless tank water can still have ich out side any fish for a period of weeks.

Most people think of returning fish to DT as early as reasonably possible and won't wait 4 months.

[goldmaniac]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15518353#post15518353 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
4 months should be OK. I was just refering to the fact that a fishless tank water can still have ich out side any fish for a period of weeks.

Most people think of returning fish to DT as early as reasonably possible and won't wait 4 months.

Understood. I let it go a LONG time, I waited until the chaos and costs of the holiday season was over to start restocking.

After 10 years, I am much improved in the Patience Dept.

And I'm not even that furious that, after a year's amount of effort, Ich is back in the display tank. I never expected success with keeping Ich out when I've been adding corals.

I'm just debating on whether or not I should catch the tang and the mandarinfish in the display tank and QT them and start over with a new fish-less tank. With coral additions, I don't know if i can keep it free of Ich. I don't have a frag tank or anything set up on a separate system to house corals for this purpose.

[xvinnyax74]

I had my display tank nice and clean... Ich free.. So I thought.. Right from the start. I had saltwater tanks for years then I stopped for a bit now I am back in the game (Divorce Sucks they get everything).. So when I bought all new stuff I was going to beat this Ich and do everything I always wanted to do right from the start.

I bought the live rock 90 lbs.. and cured it for 7 weeks in my display tank brand new tank.. Etc etc.. All new fish went through copper.. All Inverts went into a quarantine. I thought I did everything the way you could to keep from getting Ich..

And guess what I did not see anything for ever.. I have not added anything new and what happens one day? LOL I got ICH LOL all that work for what?

I cant win.... :(

[Paul B]

Although I can't say is ich is in everyone's tank or not but it is definately in my tank and has been for 40 years.
In the summer almost every day, or at least once a week I get down to my boat and collect either water, mud, rocks, amphipods, seaweed, snails, worms etc. These things are all put into my tank in small quantities but I mainly want the bacteria. I am in NY and do not quarantine any of this stuff. I have also been buying fish all of these years and putting them in my tank.
I have not seen a case of ich since the eightees. I will only see ich if a fish is near death from something else like old age or jumping out.
From my observations, in those 40 years with my still running tank I can deduce that ich is present in my tank and that due to the health of the animals, they do not exhibit ich symptoms.
My fish are in breeding condition, I know that because many of them are breeding. Ich is not a problem in my tank which means it should not be a problem in anyone's tank. I am not big on water changes or maintenance so it is not due to that.
If your fish are not breeding or making spawning jestures, they are very suseptable to ich and everything else.

I can put an obviousely ich infected fish in my tank (don't do this) and it will either die or be cured but none of the other fish will get it, ever. This is from 40 years of observations, not just a few weeks.
Fish can be put into breeding condition very easily but it takes a little work

[ctenophors rule]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15522796#post15522796 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
Although I can't say is ich is in everyone's tank or not but it is definately in my tank and has been for 40 years.
In the summer almost every day, or at least once a week I get down to my boat and collect either water, mud, rocks, amphipods, seaweed, snails, worms etc. These things are all put into my tank in small quantities but I mainly want the bacteria. I am in NY and do not quarantine any of this stuff. I have also been buying fish all of these years and putting them in my tank.
I have not seen a case of ich since the eightees. I will only see ich if a fish is near death from something else like old age or jumping out.
From my observations, in those 40 years with my still running tank I can deduce that ich is present in my tank and that due to the health of the animals, they do not exhibit ich symptoms.
My fish are in breeding condition, I know that because many of them are breeding. Ich is not a problem in my tank which means it should not be a problem in anyone's tank. I am not big on water changes or maintenance so it is not due to that.
If your fish are not breeding or making spawning jestures, they are very suseptable to ich and everything else.

I can put an obviousely ich infected fish in my tank (don't do this) and it will either die or be cured but none of the other fish will get it, ever. This is from 40 years of observations, not just a few weeks.
Fish can be put into breeding condition very easily but it takes a little work

how long have you been in this? jk i know it is forty years.

an aquaculturalist (i am withholding name because he sells pruduct, whch many of you probably use) recently had a crypto out break. he had all 15 and 1/2 pairs of clownfish in 20 gallons, that were all hooked up togather. he bought a clown that had supposedly been ich free for 6 weeks, so he decided not to quarantine it (don't know why that stopped him but...) all of his fish died over the course of three days! all of his fish were breeding!

also, can amphipods bring in ich? also other inverts. i was told that ich can live on invertabrates, but it can't kill them....this confused me greatly...

[Paul B]

If your fish are not breeding or making spawning jestures, they are very suseptable to ich and everything else.

I said fish that are not breeding are very suseptable to ich, I didn't say that fish in breeding condition are immune from ich.

Ich can attack any fish especially in crowded tanks which are specifically set up for breeding. Usually those set ups are small bare type tanks.
I don't know this person and I am just speaking from my experiences from my tanks and the tanks in stores that I have set up.

Ich can be brought in on pods, rocks, seaweed or anything else that is wet. It just can not live out it's life on such things.
If you quarantine everything you should never have ich in your system. I like my fish healthy enough to never get ich even if it is in my tank. Some of my fish lived for 18 years and never got ich.
The tank was an ich magnet when I set it up in the seventees, before we had reefs or knew about fish nutrition. My first fish were blue devils. They were the only salt water fish available in 1972. I had a very hard time even keeping them alive due to ich. Everything had ich and we had to keep copper in the water 24/7.
Then I started feeding foods from the sea and supplying them with live blackworms. Those 7 blue devils stopped exhibiting paracites and started spawning. They lived and spawned for over 7 years and never again got ich.

Male blue devil over his nest of eggs, Circa 1972

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Historic_4.jpg

[goldmaniac]

ok, here's a question then... is there a way to quarantine SPS frags from ich other than keeping them in a tank without fish for 6-8 weeks?

my situation:

i have a display tank consisting of a mixed reef. I have 29 gallon and 32 gallon QT tanks in the basement, but i don't have the facilities/capacities/money to keep a reef-quality QT tank.

Is there a treatment that can be used? I wouldn't mind netting my two fish in the display tank, letting the tank go fallow again, if there was any way to keep Ich out if/when i wanted to buy more LPS or SPS frags.

\ I'm guessing Lugol's in freshwater would eradicate Ich if I put zoa/paly frags in there for a 5 minute QT period.

[Paul B]

The ich will not live on sps frags. It just may come in on the water with them. You could just rinse them in salt water a few times and change the water each time. That should eliminate any ich that is hanging around on the water with the frags.

[goldmaniac]

that's what I did for my current SPS frags that I've purchased in the past 3 months, and I suspect it's one way Ich got back into my tank after it was empty of fish for 3.5-4.0 months.

No dips or other measures that can be done?

Paul, i know you're suggesting keeping the tank at optimal levels, which I agree is the best case scenario. I'm working on it -

and thanks. I've always been a big fan of your reverse-underground tank, and the philosophy behind your reef husbandry.

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15523715#post15523715 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ctenophors rule
all of his fish died over the course of three days!

Wasn't crypto if it killed that fast. More likely Amyloodinium. Just another reason to QT all new comers no matter the source.

[Paul B]

Goldmaniac, I wouldn't dip corals and frags.
To get the animals in optimum health, you need to feed them something with a lot of fish oil in it like blackworms or fish eggs. You need to do this at least every other day.

Hello Bill, how you doing? Hows the East end? I have been out there a lot lately. I was just at a wedding on Shelter Island, I have a party next week in Riverhead and a wedding soon in Martha Clara Winery.

[billsreef]

Hi Paul :wavehand:

East end is doing well, water is nice and warm :D When you go that wedding at Martha Clara, make sure the band keeps the volume down for me...I can hear some of those shindigs when they get things cranking :lol:

[Paul B]

I will let them know. Tuesday I am going to the south shore to collect some tropicals. I know lookdowns are in. They get too big for my tank but I will keep the smaller ones for a while then sell them.

[jenglish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15528438#post15528438 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
The ich will not live on sps frags. It just may come in on the water with them. You could just rinse them in salt water a few times and change the water each time. That should eliminate any ich that is hanging around on the water with the frags.

When ich encysts in sand it can also encyst on a ceramic frag plug. I would think the chances of this happening would be pretty darn small. I am unaware of what lugol's would do to the cyst and I think (I could be wrong) that FW does not hurt the encysted form of crypto.

[tmz]

A freswater dip wont effect encysted parasites but it will kill the sps.
Three + hours of freshwatr soaking should per knowledeable advisors destroy encysted parasites .Don't know if other dips would have much effect either.

[wooden_reefer]

Say you are on a boat floating on a coral reef. If you scoop up a cup of water without fish or organism large enough to be seen by the naked eyes, is that chance that the cup of water contains ich high or low. I'd low, may be quite low.

This is not the same as putting any water from your LFS. Who knows what the wholesaler had done. May be he had mixed coral and other inverebrates with fish.

[Toadally]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15417506#post15417506 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by waynem
I had ich years ago in my tank, one fish died rest survived. Just recently I move them all to a new tank at my new house and what do you know the ich came back.

Its only on the Tangs and it must have been the stress of moving / catching / new home that did it.

Not one sign for years, perfect water conditions and it never went away.

So you didn't introduce any new fish after the move??