Rhinopias Owners ..

[Mental1]

I am a brand new rhinopias frondosa owner and would like to hear about others feeding practices. I believe the LFS was feeding him a silverside every other day -- yes -- he eats fresh frozen and live feeders -- and I read an article that said feed until he is full twice a week. So I started by feeding him 1 fish every other day.

I fed him on Sunday night and then when I got home on Monday night he started doing this little feed me dance which I had never seen before. So for the second day in a row I fed him a silverside (which I have been slitting open and packing with pellets for some added nutrition). Then on Tuesday night when I got home -- same thing -- he did his little feed me dance. I did not feed him again last night but today I fed him -- when he saw me preparing his fish he started dancing -- he ate one stuffed sliverside and then started dancing again -- he wanted another one. So I gave him another one. I stopped there because I also read to be very careful and not overfeed these guys.

So I am curious -- how much are others feeding their rhino's? I also have live feeders but I am in the process of fattening them up -- a bunch are pretty small. We fed him one of the larger ones -- and I think there is one more. And yes -- they are saltwater something -- there are housed in the main system. NOT GOLDFISH -- I KNOW!

[FMarini]

Hi Sherri-- nice to see you onboard.
I would direct your question to seahorsedreams and her hubby namxas, as they have a pair of Rhinopias and have been quite successful w/ them.
There are a handful of other rhinopias owners on this board as well- who will hopefully chime in
BTW- whatever happened to the cloudy eyes and the other issues we discussed
frank

[Mental1]

Hi Frank! Thought I might find other owners here. His eye has cleared up -- looks almost completely clear today. He started looking and acting better once I started stuffing the silversides. As far as the possible ich goes -- all of that has cleared too. Maybe he was just stressed by the move -- it is a two hour drive to my house from Boston -- and the new tank. I can't believe the antics of this fish. He is just too cool. He has turned a deep green color in my tank -- I am thinking because he is trying hard to imitate a green plant -- the bottom of the tank is very bare. But I also see some spots where he may be turning back to the purple coloring as I have quite a few purple mushrooms in the tank. Whatever color he ends up being is fine with me -- he is the best!

[Amazon4]

Sherri...he's turing green?! LOL That's wild :) I didn't know they did that.

Can't wait to see him in he new home. Hope I get to see him do his "dance"

Glad to hear he's settling in just fine!

[Mental1]

Here's a picture taken by a reefing buddy with a better camera! He still looks yellow and the eye still looks cloudy but this picture is just awesome!

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/131354IMG_3451a.jpg

[namxas]

hi Sherri,

welcome to the Rhinopias club! it's great to hear that your fish is eating so well. as you're finding, they're quite personable, and yes, it's very cute when they decide they "need" feeding.

we feed all of our scorps M-W-F with a variety of foods: silversides, cut-up table shrimp (shell-on if it stays), various fish from the fish market (red snapper seems to be a fave), squid, and clams/scallops. Renee does stuff certain foods w/pellets or beta glucan, and she also sometimes injects it w/vitamins. we had a period of time where the eschmeyeri went "stick shy" and was eating gutloaded damsels, but its now back on prepared fare.

our frondosa has kept its purple coloration, but our eschmeyer's has decided to go from bright yellow to a cool "tequila sunrise" color since its tank contains a lot of purple LR. it began to change when i had to yank out the macro that was beginning to go sexual, which we never replaced.

i'd love to see more pix of your fish! the front-on view is really a cool pose, isn't it?

here's our frondosa:

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll73/hixphotobucket/100g%20rhinopias%20and%20volitan/fronny.jpg

[Mental1]

I love it! I was thinking of adding an eshmeyer too -- as soon as I get more experienced. Thanks for the report of what you are feeding and thanks for the welcome to the club! I will definitely get him more variety. Oh -- silly me -- he is still yellow -- he lookeds green under the blue lights this morning. Oh -- hi Lisa!

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/131354IMG_3445a.jpg

[Mental1]

Oh -- I forgot to ask -- how much do you feed them? Do you measure? Keep feeding until they don't want anymore? Thanks Greg! Oh -- my husband is the lead singer of a band and plays several instruments ... I'm a groupy!

[namxas]

we pretty much feed to satiation or a nice "belly bulge" at the very least.

cool...i used to play professionally, but now that i have a good day gig, i can pick and choose the jobs i play, and i like that a LOT better (most of the time!).

[Mental1]

Okay -- I will look for the belly bulge -- or the food dance ceases! I was going to do both live and dead foods but it sounds like you guys try to get them all on dead -- what is your reason for this? Not having to keep live feeders in a tank somewhere because you have so many mouths to feed? You would have to keep a 180 just for feeders!

I was looking at your thread on the fu manchu and you guys are the scorpionfish gurus! I had to look up a bunch of the fish listed in your wife's sig. I was thinking about adding two more fish in with this guy -- he's on his own in a 65g. I was thinking of adding an eschmeyers and a dwarf either fuzzy or zebra lionfish. The fun manchu is too small I think. Who do you have for tank mates with your rhinos and how big is the tank?

Yea --my husband's band doesn't perform that much -- do it for the fun of it. They play a bunch of old rock 'n roll tunes and get together weekly to practice. He just has fun ... not in it for the money.

[namxas]

when you feed frozen/thawed foods, there is virtually no chance of the fish catching a pathogen from the live food. it's also easier since one doesn't have to relay on the fact that sometimes live food may not be available (live food can also be pricy). as i may have mentioned, we were buying damsels for our eschmeyeri when it reverted to live (we always gave them a 20 min FW dip before feeding them out).

our plan is to keep both Rhinos with our volitans (the frondosa currently resides with the lion). we're setting up another tank for them.

i think either of the dwarf lions will be fine with the Rhinos as long as they're not "food-size". the reason i say this is because Renee & i tend to look for juvies that we can grow up ourselves. even a medium-sized lion might be a good choice like P. antennata. jut outta cuiosity, how big is your frondosa (ours is pretty good-size)?

i actually haven't played much "for fun" in awhile, but i try to make sure the gigs i take are with peeps that i enjoy playing with.

[Mental1]

I had no idea I needed to be concerned about pathogens with live food. Did not cross my mind. Is that a fairly common thing or rare? Fresh water dip sounds like a great idea.

My guy is about 8 inches long so he is not a small fish. So I would need to buy a larger lion -- the antennata is cool. It looks like they max out at 7 inches which would be good considering it's only a 65g tank. I am going to keep my eye out for an eschmeyer and either an anetnnata or dwarfs. I think it is good to grow out the juveniles as you can probably train them easier to take prepared foods. Hard to teach an old fish new tricks? But the small size would make it tough for me without setting up another tank. I don't think I would have a lot of support at home for that .....

[namxas]

I don't think I would have a lot of support at home for that .....

tell hubby it's "what musicians do"...he wouldn't wanna be outdone by an old sax player! ;)

here's some inspiration. BTW, the tank is a 60 gal, and these fish are moving out to an upgrade soon (we've had the lion since it was the size of a walnut, and it has outgrown 3 tanx now, incl. this one):

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll73/hixphotobucket/volitan%20tank/tankmay700.jpg

the chances of live food transmitting pathogens are about the same as adding an un-QT'd fish to your system, maybe a bit more if you're using some kind of "feeder" quality fish (not kept under the best of conditions).

i look at it this way...what kind of chance is one willing to take with a fish that's worth hundreds of dollars and isn't the easiest to find?

you're right...it's easier to train a younger fish to frozen than an older fish.

[Mental1]

Well, I think I have to wait a while before I can add another tank! This one is barely a few weeks old. My unspoken household plan is to make the 65g a freshwater tank and start keeping discus and replace it with a 90 or 125. Then I can really have fun with the scorpionfish. The basement system would easily handle it.

As far as the feeder fish go ... well I put them in one of my basement tanks that are part of the system and I am growing them out. They are pretty small. So the pathogens from them are already in the system. Kinda dumb I guess. Maybe I got lucky but they look really healthy and are eating like pigs. It is convenient that he eats frozen while I grow them out!

We have actually had our first shed -- just found his skin? all over the tank -- well in two pieces ... looks like what a snake would do.

I will try and get a lion that is already eating prepared food -- I think my LFS can find one for me.....it just has to be bigger to be able to go in with him.

I love your tank. I am trying to decide what kind of macroalgae to put in with him. What have you had the best luck with? I don't want to have to deal with any of it that goes sexual but was thinking about something like gracilaria or purple ochtodes. Could feed it to the tang too....

[namxas]

a 90 0r 125 would be SWEET!

the shed thing will happen every so often. one thing i might mention is sometimes the fish do some odd things with their mouths/gills to loosen the cuticle. the look like they may be distressed, but once the cuticle loosens, they're back to normal and all clean and pretty.

different macros favor different systems for us. some will grow anything, some only grow certain species...go figure. you might want to look into red grape (Botryocladia sp.). it's a slow grower, but won't go sexual, and it does best under non-MH lighting (it fades/goes brown under bright lighting)

check out John Maloney's macro at REEFCLEANERS (http://www.reefcleaners.org) his stuff is great, and he always has something interesting.

here's what Botryocladia looks like (it was a bit "leggy here as i had just added some clippings):
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll73/hixphotobucket/100g%20rhinopias%20and%20volitan/fronny700-1.jpg

[FMarini]

sherri--
now that he's shed-- did his eye clear up?

[seahorsedreams]

These fish have a recommendation of being frozen before consuming. My peeps were fisherman and I have some nasty cod and halibut stories.

Sea bass
Capelin & roe
Cod
Flounder
Dab
Fluke
Grouper
Halibut
Herring
Jack
Jobfish
Kahawai
Mackerel
Monkfish
Mullet
Chilean Sea Bass
Ocean Perch
Plaice
Pollock
Rockfish
Sablefish
Salmon & roe (aquacultured and wild)
Seatrout
Sole
Sprat/Bristling
Trout/steelhead/rainbow
Tuna, small
Turbot
Wolfish

[strendo]

Here's mine, I have a custom 46g tank built to house 2 Rhinopeas and a frogfish:

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/LQ-wkuoWUOBGkYWKemw1sg?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_NPIRWKuZUJQ/SgB6KW09ZEI/AAAAAAAACU8/tYC9PEWeh1I/s800/IMG_0724.jpg" /></a>

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ByjQzPcrnxywMv3Wn4rDxw?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_NPIRWKuZUJQ/SfIwK_xU1aI/AAAAAAAACR0/QI5HsGzHEGA/s800/IMG_0572.JPG" /></a>

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/PfOiReVTymB4ZMysQ1n6IQ?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_NPIRWKuZUJQ/SbAXTjAer1I/AAAAAAAACAA/yOlu1DWqP0Q/s800/IMG_0153.JPG" /></a>

I feed mine 1 vitamin enriched silverside each 2x/week. Every once in a while I'll feed live foods.

[seahorsedreams]

SWEET! How long have you had them? Were those pictures taken when you first got them? What colour are they now. How's the dinged lip doing?

EDIT: Oh. The angler pic wasn't showing up at first. How long have you had this combo together? What is the size of your eschy's and how big is the angler?

Here's our eschy.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll73/hixphotobucket/Our%20Fish/esch700b.jpg

[strendo]

Nice! I've had the angler about 8 months, the Eshy's around 6 months. They've stayed pretty bright red (although the bigger one is a lot brighter)
Here's some more pics:

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/SRpoJr-s1e7QGlhM5KTnFg?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_NPIRWKuZUJQ/SfIvdjX3NcI/AAAAAAAACQ4/7pFlAV3XE9g/s800/IMG_0577.JPG" /></a>

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/kubyuVMP8UKaAZuRU-cLgA?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_NPIRWKuZUJQ/Scfx3_o8SwI/AAAAAAAACH0/HdiRVmVOgGU/s800/IMG_0451.JPG" /></a>

[namxas]

VERY NICE!!!!

Sherri's thread is turning out to be a Rhinopias extravaganza...i'm SO loving it! it's nice to see other peep's ideas, fish, and setups. i like the look of the chromises as dither fish. have the scorps and angler kinda gotten to ignoring them?

i hope your fish's lower jaw heals up OK...it doesn't look too bad.

here's what our leafy looked like when we acquired it (it changed when i had to remove the macro). this is the same fish that's in Renee's post:

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll73/hixphotobucket/100g%20rhinopias%20and%20volitan/eschy700b.jpg

[strendo]

Love the yellow color!
Those pics are a little old, the jaw healed up nicely. I put about 20 chromies in the tank, but they didn't last long. I have 1 survivor left who's been alone for the past 2 weeks.

[seahorsedreams]

Dang. To bad. The chromis up high like that is a sweet picture.

[namxas]

did the Rhinos perch up high and snag them or did they just get "careless"?

this thread is definitely a "must see" regardless of whether one keeps Rhinos or not...

[Mental1]

Greg-- the website looks cool -- I will definitely be ordering! Thanks for the link! I like the Botryocladia. Oh -- I did not see him doing anything differently before he shed but I was gone Wednesday night and all day Thursday so he could have been doing something. Oh and yea -- I would want a bigger tank but let me keep this going for a year and see what happens. That is the long term plan anyway.

Frank -- his eye started to clear up before he shed. He looks awesome.

Renee -- that is a killer list! I don't think I want to hear the stories. Nurses have a high tolerance for gross things!

Strendo -- I love your tank -- it almost looks like the solaras that everyone is putting up. The fish look wonderful. I too was contemplating an angler or frogfish in the tank. But you only feed one fish twice a week? They look great. And you have a 175 and a 150 -- you must have a big place in Queens!

[seahorsedreams]

Yours looks older than ours. Ours looks to be the same size but yours just has that aged appearance.

This is fun. Where's that other guy with the yellow fronnie?

[namxas]

I did not see him doing anything differently before he shed but I was gone

i was just alerting you "in case" you see it, as it DOES look strange, like the fish is in distress.

just out of curiosity, did you (and strendo as well) just happen to find your fish, or did you order them? believe it or not, both of ours came from one of the LFS near us...they were just "there" calling out to us!

[Mental1]

I did not order mine -- I saw his picture posted by a LFS -- 2 hours away --- and contacted them immediately and said I was interested. Then I had to set up a tank for him and talk my husband into helping me -- which he did -- he hates plumbing. I had everything I needed -- almost -- but it just took time to figure out the details so I could add it to the main system. I did just write the guy and ask him to find me an eschmeyer though! So she (?) will be ordered. Stay tuned.

[Mental1]

So he danced for me yesterday and I fed him 2 sliversides -- one stuffed with pellets. Then this morning he danced again. He wanted more food. Do they ask for food as habit? Should i feed him whenever he dances? Just curious ... I did not feed him. He was disappointed. (-;

[seahorsedreams]

Don't feed him every time he begs. Would he have gone for a third silverside yesterday?

[Mental1]

I did not try yesterday but when I fed him the time before I tried three and he did not go for the 3rd one -- but I was rushing him. Maybe tomorrow if I have time I will try three again and see what happens. Begging fish .... who would have thought?

[seahorsedreams]

There are different size silversides as well... so yours could be larger. I hack off a little bit of the tail to make them just a little shorter.

[Mental1]

Well, a helper at the house saw him begging and fed him -- well she tried to and he spit it out. I tried feeding him today and he was not interested. He keeps opening his mouth really wide -- like in a yawn. Do fish yawn?? Anyway -- could he have something stuck? I have something going on at work so could not hang around ... just concerned ... a little anyway. I also left her instructions not feed without my asking her to.

[seahorsedreams]

Could he be shedding his skin/cuticle? Look for "peeled sunburned skin" coming off him or around the tank. Remove it if you see it. One function of the process is to rid them of parasites and algae and what not that they are prone to because of the sedentary behavior. Might as well remove it from the tank all together. I sure hope that's what it is :-(

And check your nitrates. Our frondosa is very sensitive to nitrates.

[Mental1]

He actually just finished shedding so I don't think he is shedding again. I will test the water when I get home but I doubt the nitrates are high -- there's a lot of water there and I do a weekly 15% water change. What else would opening the mouth really wide be an indicator of? To be fair I saw him do it twice two nights ago and once this morning. So it is not constant but I am not at home observing either.

[namxas]

is the fish breathing heavily as well, or is it just "yawning"? also, it didn't bash its nose against the tank or rockwork trying to feed, did it? does its jaw seem properly aligned?

[Mental1]

His breathing is fine and his jaw looks fine. I may have just been trying to feed him too early this morning. I have an event at work which gets me out the door quickly so was trying to feed him within a half hour of the tank lights turning on which can be a bit quick. But I got worried when my daughter explained that Melissa tried to feed him yesterday and he spit it out. I may just be being paranoid.... sigh. These wonderful creatures .. I just want him to be okay.

[seahorsedreams]

When our nitrates went up ours spit out his food and then refused. After we tested and changed the water, he ate again.

I'm sending good vibes your way....

[Mental1]

When I test the water in the basement the nitrates are zero. The 65g is connected into that system so I do not think it is nitrates. Perhaps he is going on hunger strike for live food like your eschy did?

[seahorsedreams]

It was different for th eEschy. He had a "stick incident", we call it. He grabbed too far up on the kabob stick and would not let go. He then proceeded to thrash back and forth on the stick. The very next feeding he wouldn't even look at the stick or any frozen foods. This has happened with 3 of my fish. That's when I made my own stick that has a zero percent chance of injury.

[Mental1]

I use the metal tongs -- really not sure what is happening then.

[Mental1]

Phew .. he ate a fish this morning.

[namxas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15482781#post15482781 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mental1
Phew .. he ate a fish this morning.

isn't it weird to be thinking "i wonder if the fish will eat today?"

great news!

[Mental1]

Well -- I am bit stressed because I really blew it in my QT -- I treated with prozipro following the instructions and it killed them all. And I had a cockatiel die just a few weeks ago from something piercing her gut, I have lost a mandarin, 2 tangs, an angel fish and perhaps the neon gobies in QT, and I have a friend who has an aggressive cancer that just showed up suddenly all over her body. I think I am getting paranoid... justifiably. Sorry .. I guess I am saying too much just because a fish would not eat another fish....

[namxas]

trust me...we get it.

one of our dogs was just diagnosed w/lymphoma...we've been riding that roller coaster for a couple of months.

[Mental1]

Just to clarify, the mandarin was not in the QT. And to be fair -- was sold to me as eating -- turned out that it was not healthy. One of the tangs was not healthy either and was refunded. So the problem for me was treating the QT with the angel, tang and 4 neon gobies and everyone died. Just happened today so I am stunned. Too much death and dying.

[Mental1]

Sorry about your dog -- I went through that too -- 8 year old GS with a tumor in the mouth -- he died in 3 months. I love my animals but I guess I just stink with the whole death thing. Breaks my heart every time. I cry.

[Elysia]

I'm sorry -- don't want to get too off topic here, but can completely understand where you are both coming from. Three weeks ago today I lost my cat, just shy of her 14th birthday, most likely to thyroid cancer.

Just wanted to mention, in case anyone is interested, there is a charity called "Chase Away K9 Cancer" that a woman started after losing her beloved labrador to cancer. All the funds go to the ACVIM (American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine) Foundation, which helps fund "humane animal health studies that translate to new techniques in the diagnosis, treatment and prevention of disease." I really think it is a good thing, as the benefits can trickle down to all animals (and some of the science even helps human medicine.)

Should anyone be interested, their website is: http://www.chaseawayk9cancer.org/index.html

Sorry to derail your thread.

[FMarini]

Elysia-
sorry bout your cat-but it was almost 14yrs old. Advanced age is the #1 risk factor in cancer.
Anyway, almost all vet oncology comes from human oncology. There are so little monies to do Vet-based oncology work that the vet oncologists just take human SOCs and apply them to animals
Also sorry to derail the thread

Renee and Greg- Also good luck w/ your Dog, depending on what type of lymphoma you may have a great outcome

[seahorsedreams]

We're not treating, we decided to do palliative only because there was lung involvement.

[namxas]

on a more happy note, Renee has been fooling around with the video setting on her 5D mk II. she'll get a handle on it soon, but here's our frondosa on the move:

CRUTCHING ALONG (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v01EjvKMZMY)

other than feeding time, that's a full day for a frondosa!

[Mental1]

I recognize that walk!

[smoney]

how much do these usually go for?

[Mental1]

Anywhere from $300 to $1000. I paid $650 for mine but he was housed for four months and eating frozen. There was a red one on the Cherry Corals website for $1000 -- it was the color but paying more for color can backfire and they can and do change color. Same as always in this hobby -- unusual demands high bucks.

[namxas]

yeppers...Sherri is spot-on.

our frondosa has kept its color, but our eschmeyeri went from "tang yellow" to a "tequila sunrise" color (it's in a very purple tank).

that being said, they're simply awesome fish...don't do much, but are just off the hook as far as i'm concerned. and each fish definitely has its own "personality".

[strendo]

I just lost my large Rhyno..
He was laying on the floor in my office this morning. They can barely swim much less jump?? Could he have jumped or did someone grab him out of the tank?

I'm real bummed it took me forever to get him to eat frozen foods and he wasn't cheap.

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/R0qFld8SY413xFNP8F_fUw?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_NPIRWKuZUJQ/SbAXWhIQ9_I/AAAAAAAACAQ/-wGzoHdLcvc/s800/IMG_0158.JPG" /></a>
RIP

[seahorsedreams]

*faints*

I have no idea.........

[Mental1]

OMG -- no way he jumped. Someone tried to grab him and got stung. How deep is your tank? That is crazy. Oh I am so sorry. I have never seen mine leave the bottom of my tank. I can't believe you found him on the floor -- your heart must have fallen out of your chest!

[strendo]

It did, I don't understand how he could have jumped though. I mean he barely swims..
Has anyone ever heard of them jumping?
I don't really see any of my employees sticking their hand in the tank to grab him

The tank is 24 in deep, I had it custom made to house those fish

[Mental1]

You know we had a weird thing happen here in our office with stuff being stolen constantly. We finally changed the lock and do our own cleaning because someone could gain access somehow and we could not figure out how. I did not believe it was any of my employees either or even the cleaning company but it has all stopped since we changed things. Someone had one of the master keys who should not have had it. If someone knew the value and could get access? I do not see how he could jump. Have any surveillance cameras?

[strendo]

I do but it only turns on after hours when it detect motion.
I had a brand new Canon Rebel and a laptop on my desk next to the tank, I would assume they would steal that not a poisonous fish. I just have trouble believing he could jump

[Mental1]

In our case I believed that someone who has in the past been employed by the building managers or a relation to one of the cleaning people had a key -- they stole little things -- like a beer out of the fridge or little plant pots from Mexico -- they did find the petty cash and steal $200. But not much of value -- bets -- dares -- immature stuff really. We have all kinds of valuable equipment that never went missing. So I assume you checked and the camera never turned on?

I have never seen mine even go up the rock let alone jump out of the tank. There just is no way! I cannot see how that could happen. What would get him so upset that he would do that? Did the two get along okay? Were all of the anthias finally wiped out? I know you said you had one left. I am so sorry once again -- this stinks in the worst possible way.

[namxas]

YIKES! who'd have ever thunk it? sorry as heck to hear about your fish...it was a beauty.

we lost a red fuzzy and a nice barchin scorp to carpet surfing...i can see the fuzzy doing it, but not a bottom-camper, unless it was spooked or there was a water issue.

[Juggler]

OY! what a fish!

Sorry for your loss.

[Mental1]

seahorsedreams posted a link to a video on youtub and there were other rhinopias videos there. I watched several of them and some were dive videos as you could hear the bubbles -- anyway -- even scared in the ocean they did not swim up -- they could scoot but it was always along the bottom. The whole thing just seems very weird. My tank does not have a top ... maybe it is time for some eggcrate!

[strendo]

Thanks everyone

[seahorsedreams]

Sherri, they do indeed "swim" upward. Not graceful but they can stay up there longer than they look like they can. Now jump!!... I don't know how they would propel themselves out of the water.

[Mental1]

Hey Renee -- you are probably right that they can do that --- I don't know how much room they need to get height? I don't see them going straight up??? And as you say -- how can they jump? Their physical makeup and fin structure does not seem terribly "aerodynamic" to me. Mine jumps around but if he gets 1 inch off the bottom I would be surprised. They can lunge at prey but they push off the bottom for that. Do you have tops on your tanks with them in it?

[FMarini]

Sorry for the fish jumping. Its rare but does happen.
I even had a inimicus launch itself from the tank, talk about nonaerodynamic

believe me when these guys get the inclination they can move. So while i would not expect the fish to jump, they are certainly capable of doing so.

IIRC, your tank had live rock stacked up til about 1/3 from the top, so this may have given him a good starting point

[seahorsedreams]

I am putting a netting over the new tank!!!!!

Ours have gotten their face out of the water. It's usually when we first get them and we are all standing around staring at them.... can't help it. And then the camera..... but I digress :-)

I've seen them do it a few times when they were really hungry. Like they'll be walking around and "swimming" and then once I feed them, they stop. What are they doing? Trying to leave their area to find a location with better food opportunities?

[Mental1]

Well, that's amazing that they could launch that far. My tank does have rock about two thirds of the way up so I am going to cover as I mentioned. But why would they do that? My question too ...

[namxas]

if you think about it, there really isn't anywhere for a captive fish to go but UP (without smacking into a wall), for whatever reason...water quality, fright, excitement, etc.

it's making me consider planning a cover on the 100 gal, since we were planning an open top tank.

[Mental1]

True .. guess it was just plain disbelief and having just lost some fishies -- could not believe one of these guys would jump. Guess I just need to keep quiet!

[namxas]

oh, it's HARD to believe Sherri...my mouth dropped open.

[RouDaiLLe]

hey,
I can not beleive that Rhinopias jumps.... even if the level of your water was very high given of your tank.
That seems pretty incredible to me as they can barely move.

By the way, they are (or now the one left is) wonderful!

[Mental1]

They can move a lot -- mine is hopping around right now. But he has never, in the month that I have had him, been anywhere near the middle of the tank let alone the top.

[RouDaiLLe]

Once again, i am very skeptical on the fact these fish jumps!!!

[myerst2]

I am amazed that the Rhino jumped out. So sorry for your lose. By far one of my all time favorite fish I have ever kept. I actually bought my frondosa for $200. The guy at the LFS said it was a scorpion and wasn't sure what it was but I certainly did and jumped at the chance. Mine did lose the intense yellow color over time. I had him for a 1 1/2 years until I sold him because I was going in a different direction with the tank. Again sorry for your loss..... Hopefully you have learned something from the expierence and get another one soon. Thought I would share some pics of some Rhinos. The first one was mine and the second is my dream Rhino. Some classify them as "aphanes". Tim
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg22/myerst22/scorpions/IMG_2489-1.jpg

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg22/myerst22/scorpions/IMG_3500-1.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg22/myerst22/scorpions/IMG_2984.jpg
MY DREAM RHINO
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg22/myerst22/scorpions/5.jpg

Some others.....
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg22/myerst22/scorpions/f0156300_15501019.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg22/myerst22/scorpions/f0156300_21155625.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg22/myerst22/scorpions/d0104746_20584434.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg22/myerst22/scorpions/at04.jpg

[FMarini]

Tim- great photos you attached, the only R aphanes in your pictures is "My dream Rhino"
you can see very clearly that maze patterns. All the rest are either R eschmeyeri or R frondosa. and I'm sorry to say including your fish.
Its easy to remember,
no pattern- R eschmeyeri
oscellation= R frondosa
maze pattern=R aphanes
and while patterns are not the only conclusive way- its fairly accurate.

The other cool fish you attached (has machinegun-cast on it), appears to be a fish that doesn't make into the hobby, if its from Japanese waters then it would most likely be a R argoliba, however R xenop would be the other choice from water outside of japan

[Mental1]

They turn some amazing colors. Mine is changing a little away from the yellow. I too wold love to add a aphanes in with my frondosa........keep dreaming I guess.

[myerst2]

FMarini Tim- great photos you attached, the only R aphanes in your pictures is "My dream Rhino"
you can see very clearly that maze patterns. All the rest are either R eschmeyeri or R frondosa. and I'm sorry to say including your fish.
Its easy to remember,
no pattern- R eschmeyeri
oscellation= R frondosa
maze pattern=R aphanes
and while patterns are not the only conclusive way- its fairly accurate.

The other cool fish you attached (has machinegun-cast on it), appears to be a fish that doesn't make into the hobby, if its from Japanese waters then it would most likely be a R argoliba, however R xenop would be the other choice from water outside of japan

Great info! But many people consider aphanes, frondosa, eshmeyeri are all the same. Some will exclude aphanes but many consider eshmeyeri and frondosa the same. T

[FMarini]

Hey Myerst-
You bring up some interesting points
There has been discussion that R eschmeryeri and R frondosa are potentially same species but dimorphic fish. Other thoughts are that R eschmeyeri is a R frondosa that has lost its frills.
While these points maybe true, a recent publication redescribes both species and identifies a number of specific morphological differences suggesting that these fish are truly separate. Also both male/female gamates have been found in R frondosa and R eschmeyeri- so the jury is still out, well until DNA methods are used to address these issues
So---the fish pictures above are cool and for now most consider these fish to be seperate

[myerst2]

Again thanks for the info. Hapen to have a link to that article? Thanks, Tim

[strendo]

Those are some great pics, thanks for everyone's condolences.
I think I'm going to make a non-photosynthetic display out of the tank. I want to do something different and my remaining Rhyno & Frogfish don't seem to like too much light anyway. I'll post some pics next week when some of the gregonians should come in.

[FMarini]

Tim-- its a scientific article, no freebie
Motomura H, Johnson JW, Validity of poorly known scorpionfish, Rhinopias Eschmeyeri, with a redescription of R. Frondosa and R. Aphanes. Copeia, (2006) 3:500-15.

[myerst2]

Thanks I have people that can get me a copy. :) Tim

[RouDaiLLe]

Can someone send me a copy of this article?

Frondosa + alphane can also look the same.

The main difference with Eschmeyeri and other is on the dorsal fin which is splitted in two parts on the R. eschmeyeri.

Later,

[RouDaiLLe]

PS : It's ok I got the copy of the article.

[Mental1]

The interesting thing is based on this article, the distributor that sources my rhino insists that he is a aphanes despite the color pattern. So what the article and this fellow is saying is that color pattern alone does not identify if it is a aphanes or frondosa.

[seahorsedreams]

I think they are going to end up as separate species. You never have to look at one of the common ones and try to figure out what it is. It either looks totally like an eschy or totally like a fronny. Maybe a species split, however moons ago? The aphanes facial porportions look different to me than the fronny and the eschy... like the face is longer.

[Mental1]

Okay -- just chewed through the article and it states that the three species can be distinguished by their coloration. I was told different but decided to read. I must say that I cannot do the rest of the assessments! What is interesting is if you look at the pictures on page 1 of this thread, of your Frondosa and compare it to the head shot of mine -- the head of mine is a lot longer. And the measurements said the aphanes has the longer head -- by a mean of 1 cm -- or is it mm? No key on the table in the article.

[FMarini]

sherri-
when these fish taxonomists decide on separating fish they tend to use visible identifiable features. Be it right or wrong (in fact- I'd say w/o DNA proof- its potentially wrong).
So besides coloration differences and pattern differences, they look at dorsal spines, and fin ray counts, #s of facial projections, etc anything to add more weight to their consideration that these are seperate features.
In that article which appears to be floating around, the descriptions discusses the main differences between all three of the common Rhinopias species and what to look forward, and yes as you mention-the body pattern and dorsal fins shape are key points, Next the head shape and lenth of head and finally the # of subocular projections.
Thats said- even if we remove the body pattern from the decision, to me your fish still looks like a R frondosa, as the head of R aphanes tends to be more elongated, w/ a longer snout (I ask you to look at this article- (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-11/hcs3/index.php) as it has one of the only R aphanes images that displays the elongated snout-(bottom two pictures).
On side view the head of your rhinopias has similar proportions to Renee and Gregs

Anyway- you still have a beautiful fish, and funny thing about fish taxonomists- i always wonder if -based on their evidence gathering- if they evaluated pygmy tribes from south america and looked at the Ugandan giants from Africa and determined these two be separate species as well.

[Mental1]

Hi Frank ..
The interesting thing about the fish pictured in that article is that the pattern is not the maze type pattern! I guess head shape is relative-- the face on that fish is long but mine looks long compared to the upturned and shorter snout of Renee and Greg's fish. I am not concerned what he is for any reason other than curiosity. As you know my LFS and his supplier insist that he is an aphanes. I did not have time to look but I am curious about the one versus two black spots on the dorsal fin. It's been a busy week but perhaps I will look tonight and see what I find. Also, if I can count the projections under the jaw, that seems to be another identifier. What confuses me in the article is that it looks like the numbers overlap but perhaps I am missing what the two numbers refer to. Any thoughts?

[seahorsedreams]

Wait now, I'm confused. Yours looks like a fronny to me... were we questioning it being something else?

[Mental1]

Renee -- he was sold to me as an aphanes and we have had a discussion going back and forth between the LFS, his supplier and Frank. The above mentioned article was given to me as part of the proof that mine is an aphanes and it is not based on just on the color pattern. So at this point I am just curious to see what he really is but some of the measurements are impossible to do on a live fish! And -- what if he meets some of the criteria but not all? Like I said -- at this point I am just curious.

[seahorsedreams]

Actually, I was looking at the wrong pic thinking it was yours. Do you have any side on shots of yours? I apologize if we've gone over this before... I have a sinus thing.

[Mental1]

Mine is pictured on the first page of this thread -- Greg posted yours and mine is right under it -- it is quite a nice comparison of the heads.

[seahorsedreams]

OMG! I was totally looking at it... sorry *blush* http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll73/hixphotobucket/avatars/imstupid.gif

How about when the light come on, I take a pic of the fronny with a profile positioned just like yours and I'll lay them on top of each other. Maybe then we can see how they differ. How big was yours again? Full grown?

[namxas]

Sherri,

FWIW, i'd have to say your fish is a frondosa, hands-down.

as Renee and i have been finding out in our "scorp adventure", they're probably the most mis-ID'd family of fishes i've ever come across, even more so than anglers. many of them are similar-looking, altho IMHO, the Rhinopias are one of the easier genuses to ID. in this case, i'd have to go with pattern and snout morphology.

i think any R. aphanes coming into the hobby here in the US would be a fluke, and would command a pretty steep price (as if Rhinos are cheap!), assuming it was correctly ID'd all the way down the chain of sellers.

well...we can always dream, can't we? :)

[Mental1]

The curious thing is that the actual supplier is also a marine biologist in his own right and he is sending all of his fish in as aphanes. I had heard they were rare and expensive too. I am just curious how many of the criteria that I can tell from looking at him -- does he meet? Why does this supplier insist that he is an aphanes? Personally. I am not concerned any more but I am curious to test it out. I can't tell just from looking at them -- I am not that good. Yours looks like it has a shorter snout and more upturned. Mine is about 8 inches long Renee -- he is fully grown as far as I can tell. When I look at the article that Frank attached -- the fish looks like it actually has a lot more protuberances but IIRC the article said the aphanes had less. So Greg -- I think you are right -- who knows????

[namxas]

just outta curiosity, do you know where the fish are collected?

[Mental1]

Good question! I will find out.

[FMarini]

sherri-
The body adornments and dermal projections vary tremendously w/ the location of the fish, these fish appear very plastic (meaning the variability is huge) in their decorations. I've seen Frondosa that looked exceptionally hairy and Aphanes that were almost smooth. Thats fish i linked to in the reefkeeper article is one of the more "hairy" looking fish I've seen- regardless- there are no current ways to DNA type these fish- so right now the best we have to go on is morphometrics and morphology.
So if your fish is happy & healthy- then great. Considering how lucky you you guys are to keep these fish and keep them healthy. I just recieved word from a fishkeeper friend- who works at a public aquarium and had 2 Rhinopias (very expensive and amazing coloration-their photos will end up in said book)- both succumbed over the past few days. These are challenging fish to keep alive and healthy.
So if your successful- great-
we can debate the species of your fish-ad infinitum

Lastly,- R eschmeyeri tend to be collected in the Philippines- Frondosa and aphanes-indonesia

[Mental1]

Geez -- don't mean to be upsetting -- just really curious about the fish. Any word as to why they died? I am mostly concerned about diet for my guy. Just not sure he is getting what he really needs. The eye cleared up again after his latest molt. Seems to go back and forth.

[FMarini]

Hey sherry--nope not upset at all. Sorry if I came across as short. I dont think we'll ever come to a consensus on what this fish is, guess thats really where i was going w/ this

[namxas]

yikes, Frank...

how long did the aquarium have them?

Renee and i consider ourselves lucky to have such great-looking, healthy specimens, but there's always that "Rhinos are usually short-lived in captivity" thing you often hear in the backs of our minds. That being said, we both agree that we've more than gotten "our money's worth" out of our two Rhinos...every day, we're amazed at how awesome they are.

of course, all of our scorps/wasps/stingfish are pretty cool, each of their own way...

[Mental1]

The LFS says he thinks he was collected in Indonesia. We PM'd and he says he thinks that he looks like a frondosa, the supplier said that they came in labeled as aphanes -- so I guess we will say he is a frondosa. But I will still take a look at the spots just for the fun of it.

I never knew these guys were short lived! How short lived are we talking about? For some reason that never came up in my research ....

[namxas]

nobody has ever given me "a number", but they SHOULDN'T be short-lived, based on the typical lifespans of other scorps, and to be honest, i think lack of proper nutrition is a HUGE part of the equation for most of the "hard to keep" species. sometimes even fish that eat well aren't getting what they need (i'm not just talking scorps here).

many years back, my first volitans lived for about 10 years, which is really only about half of what they should, and i attribute its "early" demise to poor nutrition. i fed it primarily frozen and freeze-dried krill, which is what was suggested to me by the LFS, but i digress. this was almost 20 years ago.

there are still plenty of folks who say that you can't keep SH alive in captivity as well, and we know plenty of peeps (incl. ourselves) who have no trouble with it, providing their nutritional and other "special" needs are met.

at any rate, we're hoping that a good, varied diet will result in our Rhinos being around for many years to come.

[seahorsedreams]

renee--
they should be long lived, as most scorpionfish are.
However until recently Rhinopias were unaffordable to the common person, so only public aquaria displayed them, and the public aquarium data suggest they are short lived.
Since regular folk now keep rhinopias we are starting to see reports of 3-5yrs being common

[Mental1]

I am weeping ... just missed out on a R. Argoliba. So my guy has been getting mostly sliversides and a few live feeders. He did eat a shrimp once but hasn't taken another one. Will try some other food and see what happens ....and will keep stuffing his silversides!

[FMarini]

Sherri--
your supplier has access to R. Argoliba?
Wow-- any photos

BTW its a temperate water fish, found primarily in the ocean north of Japan.

[namxas]

i think Sherri needs to hook us all up with her supplier!

besides the Japanese Rhinos, there are some lions and others that we "need". ;)

[Mental1]

Yes -- my LFS mentioned that he just missed getting it from the same supplier that got my Rhino! Pictures are hard to find of those guys and I did not see a picture. I will ask him if he got a picture. I can also connect everyone up to see about finding some of those hard to find scorps if you want.

[namxas]

R. argoliba is known as the "Japanese Scorpionfish", and is actually a rather plain-looking fish in comparison to the more well-known Rhinos. imagine a red R. eshmeyeri with no dermal appendages at all. one trait they do have, which is rather cool, is a white "teardrop" running from its orbital down its snout. in fact, "argoliba" is from the Greek, meaning "white teardrop". the species was originally described by Eschmeyer.

"hello, my name is Greg, and i'm a scorp addict..."

[Mental1]

There is an old picture online that I found -- and it was by Eschmeyer.

http://research.calacademy.org/research/people/things/eschmey.htm

I said I was weeping -- as I thought you guys would know -- about the teardrop label.

[Mental1]

Okay -- now I am worried about him again. It is now day four and he is showing no interest in food again. I thought I was in the clear because he ate and his eye seemed to clear up. Bot now he is breathing hard. And I do not have a QT tank to put him in as my QT has fish in it in hypo. Suggestions? Help? Do a freshwater dip?

[Mental1]

So freshwater dip -- use RODI water, match temp and Ph, dip for 1 minute, rinse in clean RODI again matched for temp and Ph, rinse in tank water and put back in tank?

[namxas]

Sherri,

are the major water params OK? no spikes?

what about O2 levels? do you have plenty of surface turbulance?

is the temp spiking?

i dunno if you should dip the fish unless you have reason to suspect an ectoparasitic infestation such as gill flukes. sometimes a dip might push a weakened fish over the edge.

then again, i'm not the best fish doctor...

[Mental1]

Water params are fine -- it really never is the params -- it is a 365 g system. Everytime I measure they are fine -- zero nitrates, phosphates, etc. Just to test it out I put a live feeder fish in -- now maybe he was sleepy but he ignored it completely. It was swimming in front of him -- even stayed right in front of him. No reaction. I have the water ready -- the Ph is matched and the temp is getting there -- so will do nothing tonight. My husband thinks his breathing is fine. Maybe I am just paranoid because he has not eaten for four days. Not sure what to do.

[Mental1]

I am going to try and talk to an aquatic vet today.

[Mental1]

Have messages into a vet associated with the New England Aquarium. Keep your fingers crossed. He just stared at the live fish swimming around in front of him today.

[seahorsedreams]

*crosses fingers*

[Mental1]

Well, the vet never called me back but I did talk to the guy from the LFS. He is suggesting using some new parasitic control stuff that is natural -- not chemical. I forget the name -- it is arriving here by noon today so will post it then -- starts with a B. Anyway, I would isolate the tank, probably move the sea hare to another tank and dose for 10 days. All corals and inverts are supposed to be fine. Scares me though because I still do not know what the problem is. The live fish is still swimming around -- literally right up to his nose and he is not interested. He also just shed so I wonder if he just has a really hard time with shedding. Could he be missing some vital nutrient? I hate to put him under this stress if it is not parasitic. His breathing looks okay this morning and he is moving to his spot where he sits all day long. It is a spot where the flow is higher. Sigh, I need some help but am having a hard time finding it.

[RouDaiLLe]

Rhinopias are very difficult to maintain on longterm basis.
A small wound can lead them to death.

Does your fish have some air in the belly? They are very sensitive when they get out of the water.

Later

[Mental1]

He has not been out of the water -- he looks fine. It is just the lack of eating, lack of interest in a live feeder fish, occasional heavy breathing, and lower activity level that have me worried. He did just poop so we know his digestive system is working.

[RouDaiLLe]

When did you get it? I mean how long ago?

[Mental1]

3 months or so

[Mental1]

Couldn't resist -- seems a bit better today but has not eaten yet.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=265&pictureid=1475

[namxas]

nice pic Sherri.

ya know, i can't help but wonder whether or not these "fast periods" are simply a part of this particular specimen's individual habits. i've had lions and an eel eat well, then fast, then eat again, but were fine.

do you feed the fish to satiation or give it a "portion"? how often do you feed it?

[Mental1]

I feed him when he starts jumping around -- that can be every other day, every three days, or as I am going now -- 7 days! I only feed him one fish -- he rarely takes two.

He did just shed and he had bits hanging off of him for a couple of days. I am thinking that he had a difficult time with the shed and he doesn't want to eat or do anything for a while. His eye looks better today too and he seems a bit more active.

You may be right Greg, maybe I am paranoid. I just don't like the cloudy eye that keeps recurring, the reduced activity and ignoring a live feed fish? Seems just too weird.

[seahorsedreams]

It indeed sounds suspicious. I hope it's nothing.

[Mental1]

Bob Fenner seems to think that the sea hare could be the problem. He has only been in the tank a couple of weeks which strangely coincides with the rhino's unhappy state. The feeder fish seemed to get a bit weird after 48 hours in the tank and I was able to catch him easily and dump him back with his buddies. I can give the hare away tomorrow and will do so.

[seahorsedreams]

Has the hare been at him alot?

[Mental1]

It's not any action of the hare --so no -- not really. What I think it is is what the hare is secreting. That tank for some reason is home to a bunch of slugs that came from somewhere -- not sure what they rode in on. But I believe the combination has become toxic in the tank. As I said Bob Fenner put me on to this idea. I have a reef meeting at my house today and one of the folks coming is in line to get the sea hare next. I did clean all of my glass so harvesting of the slugs was not productive today. My plan is to move the rhino to the tank in the basement (which is still part of the main system) that houses some of the feeder fish and has a normal light cycle on it, give the sea hare away, and harvest the slugs until I eliminate as many as possible. That feeder fish was almost dead after 48 hors in the tank and the rhino has been sitting in a spot where he gets clean water on him constantly. Duh ....

[seahorsedreams]

Sometimes fish sit in the higher flow to rid themselves debris and parasites. I wouldn't have worried about the seahare. The other slugs I can't comment on because I have no idea what they are. They wouldn't be stomatellas, would they? I'll put up some pics of my mine. Would you have any pictures of the ones you have? Maybe moving him to another tank will help, ya never know what they don't care for in an environment. But I honestly wouldn't think there was toxic hitchhiker seaslugs affecting him. That's something that would be way uncommon.... and the problems you are experiencing are not that unusual.

EDIT:

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll73/hixphotobucket/critters/stomaswf4.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll73/hixphotobucket/critters/stomaswf3.jpg

or these...

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll73/hixphotobucket/critters/nudi.jpg

These come in different colours...

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll73/hixphotobucket/critters/nudifriend.jpg

[namxas]

Sherri,

i agree with Renee...altho your tank is home to "mystery slugs", i suspect they are most likely common, harmless, and beneficial Stomatella sp. "bubble shell snails". do they have a small, flat shell just behind their heads?

we're pulling for you.

[Mental1]

I thought they might be stomatellas but some of them are quite big. They look similar -- I will try and get a picture when I capture them. I really think the hare was harmless too but he has moved on anyway. I was all out of hair algae -- he cleaned it out in 2 weeks! There were no problems in the previous person's tank. I guess I am grasping on to anything! The rhino seemed a bit brighter today so I will see how we do tomorrow.

Hey you guys have a bunch of macroalgae -- have you ever had maiden's hair? Someone told me today that it is very invasive but I didn't think it was that bad...

[seahorsedreams]

I would love to see the slugs. I LOVE hitchhikers.

We had maiden's hair one time... it stayed in one area. Whoever said that probably thought that they had maiden's hari when they really had regular ole hair algae. LOL.

[Mental1]

Well, no slugs on the glass last night. I did clean all of my glass for the reef meeting at my house so we may have to wait for it to algae up before I can capture them. The tanks do look awesome with the glass all sparkly and clean! I am going to miss the sea hare though. I really like those guys. The rhino seemed to get agitated after the removal of the sea hare. Do you think he is lonely? Should I add another rhino? He moved around the tank more yesterday and is sitting in the middle this morning which is more normal behavior. Let's see if he wants to eat today.

I assume the maiden's hair will spread on to adjacent rock. I think it also gets confused with bryopsis. It's got some kind of funky crab sitting in the middle of it -- couldn't see it but could see the grass moving! It is such a vibrant green -- I love it. I also added some funky soft corals to his tank that I got at the club auction. The tank is starting to look pretty cool.

[seahorsedreams]

Naw, he's not lonely. Friends are food competition. Hopefully he's moving because he's hungry. I wouldn't add another rhino with this one showing signs of illness (or whatever) because we still don't know what's going on.

[Mental1]

Yea, I know. I guess maybe he has decided to do one of those health fasts as a way to a healthier body is having a healthy colon. He is not doing his hunger dance. So no eating yet. 8 days???

[Mental1]

He did a little dance yesterday so I tried feeding him when I got home. He lay down almost flat on the sand when I put my hand in the tank. What if he is just terrified? He is in a very high traffic area of the house. I have covered the tank in adhesive bubble wrap! I am getting desperate and I am gone all of next week. Some think bacterial, others parasites, a psychic says he is scared to death, sigh. What to do????

[namxas]

you've had the fish awhile, and these really aren't "nervous" fish, so i'm betting against the high traffic thing. IMHO, that would have possibly been a problem in the beginning while the fish was acclimating to its new surroundings, and not 3 mos down the road.

as for the laying down thing...was it pointing its spines at you? our Eschmeyers will do that to me on occasion if my cleaning is vigorous and a bit too close, however, our frondosa just sits there. sometimes these fish "make like a leaf" and lean way over, but it's usually a back and forth thing IME.

[Mental1]

Greg -- it was weird -- he was laying away from my hand and the silverside in the tongs. It was not defensive at all -- no spines at me at all! And he has been pressing himself flat on the sand -- not sitting with fins spread and back arched. I am thinking there is something in the environment that is bugging him. If it is dark in the room and a light gets turned on -- he startles big time. As you well know, each individual is different.

So this is my plan, I have covered the whole tank in adhesive bubble wrap AND he was sitting normally this morning with fins out and back arched. I am going to add a bunch of red gracilaria that I have to the tank so he can walk around in the weeds. I am going to add all four feeder fish and I am going to add 6 grass shrimp tomorrow. Then I am going to get on a plane to London next Monday for work and keep my fingers crossed!

[seahorsedreams]

Good luck with the trip. I feel your pain. One time I had to go on a vacation for 3 weeks and leave 4 uncycled hospital tanks with seahorses in them for the dog sitter to care for O.O

The eschy was made at me....

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll73/hixphotobucket/Our%20Fish/ticked900.jpg

[Mental1]

I want your camera ...

[Mental1]

Okay -- I am going to try and feed beta glucan and B12 to the shrimp while they acclimate. It's tough to run one company, help my husband with his, raise two kids 10 and 15, and figure this out. Not a lot of time to read ... I would probably kill the shrimp if I tried injecting them ...

[namxas]

good idea on the macro Sherri. our frondosa LOVES it.

whenever possible, we have the lighting on our systems set on timers so the actinics come on first, and turn off last, to approximate a dawn/dusk cycle, as well as "cushion" the light shock. i firmly believe our first red fuzzy went carpet surfing due to being spooked by the light suddenly coming on.

we're all crossing things (fingers, arms, legs, toes) for ya!

[Mental1]

That's how my aquarium lights are too. I was talking about the room lights -- we get up before the aquarium lights are on and it is still dark. My day starts at 5:30 AM and we have track lighting in addition to some spots on the other side of the room. I have asked my husband to stop turning on the track lights in the morning and just use a spot.

I really appreciate yours and Renee's attention and input. Thank you so much for your help and caring and crossing everything! If I ever get to CA would love to see your tanks!

[Mental1]

Good news -- he is acting normally. Well sort of. He is attempting to hunt. I had 4 feeder fish and the one I thought was dying so I pulled him out and thought he was fine? Yea -- well no - he was dead. Found his body last night. There is a cause of death which I stupidly overlooked -- he was swimming around like crazy and all around the rhino. He probably got himself stung and that is why he died. Symptoms were right, slowed activity, heavy breathing, death. Anyway, I threw the gracilaria in, I threw the remaining 3 feeder fish in, and sat back. I can only see 2 feeder fish this morning. And the rhino got very active -- he was up on rocks which he has not done before -- it seems he wanted to see out above the bubble wrap. This morning he was darting around. I am a bit concerned as I am wondering if the cloudy eye stuff has affected his sight. He would lunge at nothing -- the fish were not near where he was lunging. And maybe that is why he gets scared of my hand now -- can't see it properly??? I am a bit relieved to see him moving more .. so something is going in the right direction ... I hope.

[Mental1]

strange -- site not showing my post of today -- experimenting to see if this changes it ...

[Mental1]

strange -- site not showing my post of today -- experimenting to see if this changes it ...

[RouDaiLLe]

Hello,

Any news concerning your fish?

did it eat?

Later

[Mental1]

Well out of 3 feeder fish, only 2 come out to eat. Can't say about the ghost shrimp as they are hard to see. So he's got a lump in his belly, is acting a little bit more as he was although he has taken to the rocks which he has never done before. So for now he is fine. There were some spot lights that pointed at the tank -- I diverted them away and covered the door side. DOn't know if any of this has an impact but it looks as if he ate a fish. And htese guys have been well fed for several months so he got a good meal.

Thank you for asking!

[seahorsedreams]

Yay!

[Mental1]

And he shed today but I figure he went about 12 days without eating. Next time I won't get so worried.

[rduong89]

any updates?

[FMarini]

rudong--
I believe Sherris fish passed shortly after it stopped eating

[Mental1]

Yea -- he died. He started eating again, stopped again for 2.5 weeks and died. I have decided I do not want to try again. I am reverting to simple reefkeeping. Easy fish and easy corals. Do not want to lose another $600 fish after 3.5 months. Things are settling down in my tanks and I like the lack of worry. I take these things too much to heart so am giving myself a break. No new fish unless they have already been QT'd, no expensive fish or corals, just easy street for a while. I may reconsider eventually but I really am enjoying the break from worrying!

[rduong89]

Sorry about your lost. I just recently got a rhino myself and been trying to get as much care info on them as much as possible. I'm feeding it pretty much every other day with stuff and injected silversides.

[Mental1]

I truly believe that mine had two issues: some kind of bacterial infection and difficulty absorbing the food. I would take a look at the variety of foods fed by Renee and Greg and try to do something like that. I did silversides which I slit open and stuffed with pellets, ghost shrimp, store bought shrimp, and live fish. I ran out of the live fish which is what did him in I think. And I was worried about infections from the live fish. The second time around that he did not eat I tried to be less worried about it and he died. I guess my worry was justified in his case. Good luck!

[surferboi2113]

Found this guys at the LFS for about $90. I wanted to buy it sooo bad, but im in the middle of a tank transition. Hope it will till be there when my tank is cycles.

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab261/silversurfer2113/photo.jpg

[seahorsedreams]

I'm not even going to talk to you......

*sits in the corner and pouts*

[rduong89]

will the lfs ship?? =)

[surferboi2113]

Haha, good question, but probably not to texas...its here in China. Forget it, im swinging by after work and picking him up...

[surferboi2113]

Descided to wait till tomorrow so i could read up a bit more...BTW how large a tank do these fellas need? right now i have a 70g w a stonefish and a small emperor. He'll have to stay in there for a good month or so while the new tank is cycling ...hes about 4-5" right now. This is EXCITING!!! I love fish that are sooo ugly they're cute. ha

[FMarini]

Geewhiz-- I sure hope this fad of cheap inexpensive Rhinopias stop. These are pretty rare fish in the wild and honestly i cant see the population w/stand all the collection going on.
I have no hard data for this, but if you go diving you'll find 1 or 2 of these fish in specific sites, not 100s. Back when these fish were 3000.00/ea only public aquaria had them, and they just didnt collect them

[seahorsedreams]

This guy is in China.... he can get a the cool stuff cheap!

[FMarini]

and that make it alright...how
even thou China may make inexpensive products, they still pay fair market value on fish, they arent building the fish in a factory

[seahorsedreams]

I know nothing about their economy.... what is 90 bucks to the average person over there? Over here it's a nice dinner out... for all I know it could be a months rent to the average hobbyist over there.

[namxas]

i've been wondering/concerned about this issue as well. one of my fears besides the overcollection, and the price of these rare beauties becoming "inexpensive", is that they may become much more prone to being acquired as "impulse buys" by folks who have not researched their husbandry, and, altho i hate to say it, that the loss of a specimen might not mean as much if there wasn't a bigger monetary hit associated with it.

i hope you all get what i'm trying to say...i'm not going for an elitist feel to the foregoing, but i apparently am not as eloquent as i should be.

[Mental1]

I have to say that it is not all price stopping me. I do believe my guy had a problem from the start. But they are a really cool fish. I cannot tell you how many people have come to my house since he died and have been bummed because they really liked him. I do and I don't want to try again. I go back and forth and at the moment I don't. I am not sure if the price was low it would make a difference. But I understand what you are saying Greg -- but face it -- we rape everything no matter what the price. I am not sure it makes a difference if it is out of the ocean whether or not it lives. It is still out of the ocean.

[surferboi2113]

All good points i feel. $90 is about an average months rent to a local here, or a little less than a months salary to my factory workers...I feel the prices here are the right prices. My friend Derrick who owns a LFS gives me all the prices that he gets since i import yellow tangs from hawaii for him. I pay him usually double. For instance for that emperor angel fish i have in my tank for $7, he paid 4. I paid $5 for that softball sized elegance in my tank, he paid $2. Even a 160g bucket of reef crystals is about $25 here, retail...Please don't get on me cause i have low prices where i live.

[seahorsedreams]

All good points i feel. $90 is about an average months rent to a local here, or a little less than a months salary to my factory workers...I feel the prices here are the right prices.

So that would be about 2100 bucks here in California.....

[surferboi2113]

Crazy to think about, but true. Though, i'd take living in Hawaii or Cali and having no money over living here anyday. Reefcentral and my aquarium is the only thing that keeps me sane after a 16 hour work day, oh and my wife(but she's Kiwi...)haha.

[surferboi2113]

Back on topic, just sent someone to the market to pick it up!

I read in some article( can't remember where) that large specimens only need a 50g tank. Is this true? I was going to move mine to my new 600g in time, but keeping him in my 70g as a species tank might be a better idea. It'd be only him and maybe a dwarf lion in there.

Any opinions?

[seahorsedreams]

He would definitely live well in a 70g.

[rduong89]

70 gallon is good. just give it a lot of open space. i dont think rhinos like a lot of light either. When my 400 watts turns on, i always see my rhino under the ledge of my rocks. Then when its off, he goes everywhere.