Rare Trigger

[michael_cb_125]

Look at this big beautiful fish

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t118/michael_cb_125/7-28-09008JPG.jpg


~Michael

[skleek]

cool!

[Gwynhidwy]

Very nice.

[regina574]

That is suck a beautiful fish!

[fishkid6692]

beautiful fish. what kind of trigger is that?

[amore169]

Very nice, how big is it?

[gradth]

ANy info on that fish?

[michael_cb_125]

It is a very large triggerfish related to the sargassum, blue throat and crosshatch.
These fish are found at great depths and are not collected for the aquatic marine industry very often. More of these fish are caught by deep sea fisherman for human consumption, than are caught by divers.

~Michael

[Cracken]

That image is from NY
Aquatics.

Its a goldenback trigger.

[fishkid6692]

a diver i know in hawaii had a goldenback+crosshatch hybrid trigger. it's really cool.

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15446894#post15446894 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishkid6692
a diver i know in hawaii had a goldenback+crosshatch hybrid trigger. it's really cool.

Pics, or it didnt happen.

[fishkid6692]

yea i should've mentioned that he didn't have proof that is just what he told me. i will post a pic in a sec.

[fishkid6692]

heres a pic of a goldenback he caught.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h80/mattiskool98/photo-5.jpg


and heres a pic of the "hybrid" he sent me a pic of. i'm not really familiar with triggers so i'm not sure if it is.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h80/mattiskool98/photo-4.jpg

[ccampbell57]

Let's back up a little Matt.

Rob caught the golden back. It did not survive.

He did not catch the deep water trigger in the second picture. That fish was collected by divers in Christmas Island. The fish is actually a new species of trigger found only in CXI.

[AuroraDrvr]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15447437#post15447437 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ccampbell57
The fish is actually a new species of trigger found only in CXI.
Any references to that? I'd say its got some X. lineopunctatus and X. mento in its blood.

[fishkid6692]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15447437#post15447437 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ccampbell57
Let's back up a little Matt.

Rob caught the golden back. It did not survive.

He did not catch the deep water trigger in the second picture. That fish was collected by divers in Christmas Island. The fish is actually a new species of trigger found only in CXI.

o, i was not aware that it didn't survive and yea i forgot he didn't collect that. i just got the email and i guess i missed where it was collected. but i believe he told me it was a hybrid. it also says it is on the list he sent me a few days ago.

[regina574]

Is there an emailing list from certain divers and what they caught? If so, could someone PM me their emails?

[jmaneyapanda]

I mentioned this in another thread, but hybridization bteween marine fishes is really nothing but an advanced theory at this point. There has really been no confirmation, whatsoever. Its all based on someone looking at the fish and saying "yep, its a hybrid". Typically, that has been a world renowned authority like Randall or Pyle or similar. But, now, divers, importers, and wholesalers are doing so, in efforts to cash in on the fad. There is no DNA testing, no foreknowledge, just an examination of the appearance, and a deduction.

I am certainly NOT knocking any collectors, as they are "in the trenches", and certainly see these fish frequently. However, I wish that they wouldnt make some of these claims sometimes. That trigger may or may not be a hybrid. But immediately selling it as such is misleading. I recently came across two such "hybrids", which were both quite absurd. One wholesaler told me he had a hybrid Gem/Mustrad (guttatus) tang, despite the fact that their ranges didnt overlap. Another was boasting a Passer/queen angel hybrid. Not bad, considering they are found in different oceans!

I personally do believe that there are many cases of hybridiziation betwen fish species, but only at a fraction of what is claimed by resalers.

[anbosu]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15448175#post15448175 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
I mentioned this in another thread, but hybridization bteween marine fishes is really nothing but an advanced theory at this point. There has really been no confirmation, whatsoever. Its all based on someone looking at the fish and saying "yep, its a hybrid". Typically, that has been a world renowned authority like Randall or Pyle or similar. But, now, divers, importers, and wholesalers are doing so, in efforts to cash in on the fad. There is no DNA testing, no foreknowledge, just an examination of the appearance, and a deduction.

I am certainly NOT knocking any collectors, as they are "in the trenches", and certainly see these fish frequently. However, I wish that they wouldnt make some of these claims sometimes. That trigger may or may not be a hybrid. But immediately selling it as such is misleading. I recently came across two such "hybrids", which were both quite absurd. One wholesaler told me he had a hybrid Gem/Mustrad (guttatus) tang, despite the fact that their ranges didnt overlap. Another was boasting a Passer/queen angel hybrid. Not bad, considering they are found in different oceans!

I personally do believe that there are many cases of hybridiziation betwen fish species, but only at a fraction of what is claimed by resalers.

So no genetic profiling has been done on fish to determine if hybrids exist? Or are you just saying in specific instances there is no way to prove it is actually a hybrid without doing those tests?

[rort]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15448175#post15448175 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
I mentioned this in another thread, but hybridization bteween marine fishes is really nothing but an advanced theory at this point. There has really been no confirmation, whatsoever. Its all based on someone looking at the fish and saying "yep, its a hybrid". Typically, that has been a world renowned authority like Randall or Pyle or similar. But, now, divers, importers, and wholesalers are doing so, in efforts to cash in on the fad. There is no DNA testing, no foreknowledge, just an examination of the appearance, and a deduction.

I am certainly NOT knocking any collectors, as they are "in the trenches", and certainly see these fish frequently. However, I wish that they wouldnt make some of these claims sometimes. That trigger may or may not be a hybrid. But immediately selling it as such is misleading. I recently came across two such "hybrids", which were both quite absurd. One wholesaler told me he had a hybrid Gem/Mustrad (guttatus) tang, despite the fact that their ranges didnt overlap. Another was boasting a Passer/queen angel hybrid. Not bad, considering they are found in different oceans!

I personally do believe that there are many cases of hybridiziation betwen fish species, but only at a fraction of what is claimed by resalers.

+1

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15449603#post15449603 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by anbosu
So no genetic profiling has been done on fish to determine if hybrids exist? Or are you just saying in specific instances there is no way to prove it is actually a hybrid without doing those tests?

Both. To date, all hybrid fish, that I am aware of, are merely "determined" to be so by authorities. By meristics, and morphology. However, there is really no differentiation between anomolous coloration, hybridization, or otherwise.

[blface]

It looks like the trigger is sold. Who bought it???

[mandynm]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15447643#post15447643 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by regina574
Is there an emailing list from certain divers and what they caught? If so, could someone PM me their emails?

I was wondering the same thing

[freedive43]

A year ago we had Dr. Randall take tissue samples of 3 fish that we believed to be Crosshatch/Blue Throat hybrids. Another scientist was supposed to decipher their DNA and compare it with samples from regular Crosshatches and Blue Throats respectively. Unfortunately, as things happen, Dr. Randall's health declined and the fellow in charge of the DNA testing was assigned to some different projects -- so our little experiment never reached a conclusion.
I can confirm that the trigger in the second picture with the dots on its dorsal fin is an as of yet unnamed trigger. Dr. Pyle collected a number of them on his last trip to Christmas Island at a depth of about 300 feet. There are about six on display in a jar at the Bishop Museum. Occasionally, they are sent up to Hawaii under the Goldenback, Blue Throat or Crosshatch species name.

[zemuron114]

goldenbacks were very rare at one point and then deep water collectors in Tonga started getting them and pumping them out by semi large numbers. they were, at one point, on every wholesalers list out of LAX. for 300-400$ size depending. Now it seems they have dropped off a bit again, probably because demand is down now since the markets were saturated.

I believe Brian Green caught the smallest one on "record" (i use that loosely because who knows how many were actually caught in the past) at 8" i think. So by that standard you can see that they are a very large fish!

I would bet juveniles are a very pale grey color mixing in with bluethroat lookalikes.

In the big island some divers have caught them in 100 feet, which is very shallow for these fish and very sporadic.

[triggerfish1976]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15452929#post15452929 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zemuron114
goldenbacks were very rare at one point and then deep water collectors in Tonga started getting them and pumping them out by semi large numbers. they were, at one point, on every wholesalers list out of LAX. for 300-400$ size depending. Now it seems they have dropped off a bit again, probably because demand is down now since the markets were saturated.

I believe Brian Green caught the smallest one on "record" (i use that loosely because who knows how many were actually caught in the past) at 8" i think. So by that standard you can see that they are a very large fish!

I would bet juveniles are a very pale grey color mixing in with bluethroat lookalikes.

In the big island some divers have caught them in 100 feet, which is very shallow for these fish and very sporadic.

I think the collection size of the Goldenback is what drove the demand down. There was moderate demand when this fish was rarely available because of the actual "rarity" but when all of the fish are 10"-14" it limits the demand considerably even when the price became more appealing because how many rare fish collectors have tanks large enough to maintain such a big fish. They were also not fairing very well when they were being shipped from the wholesalers due to their size. A store close to me got in 3 pairs when the pricing dropped and of those 6 fish, 3 were DOA, 2 died within a day or two and the remaining male has been in there store ever since. All of the fish were over 12".

[Terryz_]

Ya.. If I never remember wrongly there is a thread on the new species of the Trigger that was thought to be a hybrid of Lineopuncantus and Ringens...

[zemuron114]

tigger, very valid point. I have never lost one, just bag them extremely heavy. A tough fish such as this shouldn't ever be DOA.. at 12" bag him a 22" bag, only one per the box, and throw in some rubber bands for him to munch on, and you should be fine. on a 400$ fish whats 50$ on shipping!