Trouble with my crocea

[Living Ocean]

Ok so I have had this crocea for about 3 weeks now and it has been doing great. Fully extending. Nice color. Everything normal. Nothing has been picking or nipping at it. I have a small clownfish and a strawberry basslet and neither of them nip at anything. The clam has always reacted to light or when fish swim over it.

Here is a before picture:

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx108/livingocean/IMG_6972.jpg

And today:

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx108/livingocean/IMG_7035.jpg

He is still reacting if I touch him but he just won't extend.

My params are not bad:

SG: 1.025
pH: 7.9
Alk: 11 dKH
Phosphate: 0
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 12 ppm
Calc: 450 ppm

I have other corals and zoas in the tank that are all doing fine as well as my fish so I am just not sure what could be causing this?

Thanks for any help.

[Ohiomom]

IMO it isn't looking so good..are those the only two fish you have?
The curled edges is what is giving me some concern. I have never seen mine do that in over two years of having them.

Also what type of lighting do you have in the tank they are pretty light dependant.

[Living Ocean]

Those are the only fishes that I have. I have 150W HQI 15,000K XM bulb. I have the clam about half way up (I acclimated him from the bottom).

I kept another crocea for many many months with no problem until I put a bi-color angel fish in there which killed it. I have since removed that angel before I got this clam.

He was doing great all until today, seems weird.

Could temperature have anything to do with it? I have noticed my tank will swing from 82 degrees during the day down to about 78 at night.

[a4twenty]

do you have any other clams in the tank??

are you running a GFO???

are you running carbon??


looks to be a case of PM, how long has he been showing symptoms???

[a4twenty]

also please list everything you dose, when and how much?

[Ohiomom]

here is a good reference I would for sure say pinched mantle..

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/3/aafeature1

there are some pictures for you to compare..I am no expert on this and have thankfully not had to deal with it..

[Living Ocean]

The first sign that I noticed anything was last night, it seemed to look a little strange but the lights were off so I didn't think much of it.

Then this morning it has pretty much maintained the same look as in the picture above.

I do not have any other clams in the tank. I am running both GFO and GAC and have for quite some time.

It does appear to be PM. I really only dose Kent Marine Liquid Reactor maybe once a week and just about 5mL for my 28 gal tank which is less than recommended. I also occaisonally dose a small about of iodide (1 mL) maybe once a week as well.

[Living Ocean]

Should I do a freshwater dip?

[a4twenty]

how are you running the GFO and GAC??? , reactors??? does one feed to the other???

how old is the AC??

i would be prepared to do the FWD ( ro/di, match tank temp) but first remove the GFO and replace with more AC and replace the AC in use ( if oldish ). over the years we have noticed a direct relationship between Fe and PM flare ups. not that the Fe cause the PM but rather causes a carrier that looks perfectly normal to exhibit symptoms.

what troubles me the most is how fast he turned, it usually starts out much slower and the symptom worsen over time.

[Living Ocean]

Well since this is just a small tank I am running both of them inside of a HOB filter :). I will, however, remove the GFO and replace with new AC and replace the existing AC with new as well. The AC in there now is two weeks old.

From what I have read it looks like the FWD is my only option?

[a4twenty]

which was first in the HOB? ( searching for answers to the rapid acceleration of symptoms )

as a general rule, it's not recommended to actual mix different media in one filter.


because a FWD can be very stressful for the clam, in the past myself and other have had success with simply removing the Fe source and letting the symptoms subside. your case appears to be much further along than most, which puzzles me, as the symptoms only just appeared. usually i would recommend waiting a day or so but i think you're right, a dip ( possibly more, but only time will tell ) is going to be necessary.

fill a larger enough container to fully submerge the clam with RO/DI and try to match tank temperature. usually i would recommend floating the container in your tank but this probably wont work with your smaller tank. you don't need to be concerned with matching pH but you can try. the problem is that RO/Di is so aggressive it becomes very hard to keep the pH stable. place the clam in and either rock the container or use a turkey baster to gentle rinse over / in the clam for ~20 min. then return him to the tank.

as i said above this can be very stressful to the clam and can sometimes push the clam over the edge. unfortunately if left untreated the clam will die, so while there is a risk, doing nothing isn't an option.

good luck and please let us know how he makes out.

[Living Ocean]

Well a brief update.

I had to go to work (I am working graveyard shift) and I did not have time to do a dip on my clam. I called my wife and she told me that my cleaner shrimp was just picking away at my clam and wouldn't stop. She said the clam was still reacting and closing up but my shrimp was just staying on top "picking" at the clam. I'm not sure if he was just picking off dead cells or actually trying to eat the dying clam (as I'm not there to see it)

Here is the picture she sent with her phone:

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx108/livingocean/photo.jpg

[a4twenty]

try to cover the clam with a clear plastic container with some holes in it for flow, half a pop bottle works well.

[Living Ocean]

Ok so I did the dip today. I matched the temp and I was able to match the pH also. I put him in there for about 23 minutes. I took him out and put him back in my tank and I really thought he was dead. Definitely in shock. After a while I did see movement and then a little more later.

Again, I had to leave for work so we'll see what happens for the next couple of days. Hopefully that helped.

[a4twenty]

it is very stressful on them, i'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[OrionN]

PMD progress very slow and does not kill for months. Just to let you know that I know what I am talking about, back in early 2000 my tank was full of clams with PMD. I actually was the person first wrote about PMD and come up with solution for them which was fresh water dipping. If you do a search on this back in about 2002 on reefcentral.com and Reefs.org you can pull these two threads up. Also at the time I wrote on other board but mostly on these two main board.
Jan 2002 my tank was the feature tank of Advance Aquarist Magazine. The pictures of my tank showed my clams at the time with early PMD. I was battling this disease at the time when no one know about it. Here is a link to one of the picture I am talking about. The Blue Max was the one that got PMD in this picture. I actually saved him and cure him of the disease
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/1/aquarium_album/dscn3853.jpg/variant/medium

Anyway, you clam is toasted (most likely). I don't know what kill him but it was not PMD. Dipping him likely did him in. If you can keep the shrimp (and worms from eating him up he may have a chance) If your tank is large with a healthy sand bed you may just find empty shell in the morning.

[Living Ocean]

Well I guess you were right. Came home this morning and the clam was a goner :(

So strange how it just happened so quickly. Was fine one day and then bad the next. Like you said, the dip most likely pushed him over the edge.

OrionN: Do you think that this clam would have survived had I just left it alone?

[OrionN]

LO,
There is noway to tell for sure. You clam may look fine but I think it was not growing for a while. I am not sure what kill it but you want to make sure it does not have any Pyramids snails that is sapping it's juice and killing it. These parasitic snails just dispersed once the clam is dead so it is hard to tell now. IMO, parasitic snails got to be the most common cause of clam death in new clam keepers tank

[a4twenty]

oh boy here we go

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15553394#post15553394 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OrionN
PMD progress very slow and does not kill for months. Just to let you know that I know what I am talking about, back in early 2000 my tank was full of clams with PMD. I actually was the person first wrote about PMD and come up with solution for them which was fresh water dipping. If you do a search on this back in about 2002 on reefcentral.com and Reefs.org you can pull these two threads up. Also at the time I wrote on other board but mostly on these two main board.

i looked for the posts but couldn't find them, could you please post a link??? i'd love to read them.

your findings differ completely to dozens of case here on RC as well as the professionals.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15553394#post15553394 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OrionN
Anyway, you clam is toasted (most likely


the interest of the shrimp prior to the dip is a pretty good indication things are going downhill fast.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15557554#post15557554 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OrionN
LO,
There is noway to tell for sure. You clam may look fine but I think it was not growing for a while. I am not sure what kill it but you want to make sure it does not have any Pyramids snails that is sapping it's juice and killing it. These parasitic snails just dispersed once the clam is dead so it is hard to tell now. IMO, parasitic snails got to be the most common cause of clam death in new clam keepers tank

the odd / troubling part is, while searching your posts i noticed that you were participating on the clam forum, in just about every thread but didn't post your concerns about the parasitic snail then. also you never said anything about your PM knowledge and advise against the FWD.

if you wanted to know whether the clam was growing, why wouldn't you just ask for a picture of the shell......

[a4twenty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15556429#post15556429 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Living Ocean
Came home this morning and the clam was a goner :(

sorry to hear :(

[OrionN]

a4twenty,
I am not sure I understand your last post. I posted lots in the early days of Reefcentral and Reefs.org but did not participate much for a long time. We old-timer get burn out from keeping post the same thing over and over again. About not posting about Pyramid snail and about not to FWD this clam, I just got on a little late. If you look at the time of my post, I am sure that I was not watching this thread at the time. I certainly did not wish to kill the OP's clam

I mostly participate in the anemone forum at this time, and for the past several years. I posted sporadic and when I have time. I do have a very busy schedule. I love clams but have not really post that much here until last few weeks I guess. What I wrote just depends on what the question on hand at the time.
I tried to do search just now but the server is too busy now. Try to search later when the server is less busy. Try to search my posts in the main general reef keeping back in 2002-2003 time frame. It was so long ago, I don't remember the exact date. The thread did not start out as a discussion about PMD, just a reef tank discussion and the subject came up.
In it I wrote about this new disease, my observation of the progression of the disease, my rational as to why I think PMD is cause by a ectoparasite, not an internal infection, how I cam to the conclusion that FWD may be effective. My trials as to how long to dip etc...
I should search and keep a tab on this thread. It was an interesting discussion. I will try if I am up late tonight or early tomorrow

[OrionN]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15559371#post15559371 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by a4twenty



i looked for the posts but couldn't find them, could you please post a link??? i'd love to read them.

your findings differ completely to dozens of case here on RC as well as the professionals.




.....
a4twenty,
I was able to search some of the other board and come up with a list of threads on various board on this discussion that was raging at the time. If you notice that everybody referred to the discussion I started.
I may have missed some because I know that the two main board at the time was Reefcentral and Reefs.org.

About the expert of today, I am sure none of them have to observe their prize clams slowly dying right before their eyes and have absolutely no way of treating them like I have. I don't think many of them watch this disease from begin to end and helpless trying to care for these beautiful creatures. They all know how to treat this disease now so have absolutely no idea about the natural history of this disease (which is how the disease progress if untreated). I did, and I know this disease well. I am train as a scientist and in medicine, but it take lots of though and luck for me to come up with the cure for this disease. I had no resource other than my observation and though and deduction, and a tank full of sick clams.
Anyway, read and enjoy. I did not try to find all the discussion just enough for you to start. These thread are intertwine. At the time lots of clams was infected because no one know of the disease and the clams got infected in holding facility. I am not sure when they know about this disease and start to take steps to try to prevent this infection. Even today, the cause have not been isolated. I think it is a unicellular ecto-parasite.
Here are the links:

http://www.reefs.org/forums/topic21957.html

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120296

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131880

http://www.reefland.com/forum/reef-aquariums/8607-ever-seen-pinched-mantles.html

http://www.reefs.org/forums/topic22102.html

[a4twenty]

thanks, i'm having problems with searching and from what you say i was using the wrong parameters ( clams etc...).

i'll read through them later today, always interested in clam research :)