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View Full Version : New Flame Angel in QT - problem?


CloruroDiSodio
08/18/2009, 03:07 PM
Hi gang,

I'm going to tell my story regarding a newly purchased 2 inch flame angel and would like your opinions. Here goes: My LFS had the angel for about 1 week, they said it was eating good with no visible problems. I bought it and freshwater dipped it for 5 minutes everything was fine. I put it in a 20gal long QT tank with seeded sponge filters and PVC pipes for hiding. It swims around nicely and checks me out if I sit by the tank. It doesn't seem to want to eat however, I've tried frozen brine and mysis. It just kind of watches the food and ignores it. I left the food sit on the QT tank bottom for awhile and it picked one or two pieces but that was it. I siphoned the food out though since I don't want to muddy up the QT tank water. I noticed yesterday it had a long stringy white poop. I know this could be a sign of internal parasite or stress but it seems to be fine. Anyway how do you think I should proceed? Should I shorten the QT period and place in DT so it could feed off of the live rock etc? Is this a dumb thing to do? Any help would be appreciated as I would really like to do the right thing for the tank and the fish.

jlemoine2
08/18/2009, 04:46 PM
It's not uncommon for a new fish not to eat, but a week seems a little long. I know flame's have a mixed survival rate, it's possible you have one of the unlucky ones.

I would not put him in your display, it defeats the purpose of the quarantine. Perhaps you can try placing some live rock in the QT. If you suspect a parasite, your LFS may have some medications that are helpful (I'm not experienced in treating fish disease to make a recommendation).

scotbehot
08/18/2009, 05:29 PM
I just recently got a potters angel, did you drip acclimate? Also I take a small piece of a frozen cube and melt it, and mix it with the garlic drops to entice the fish. I have had him for two days, and he is eating fine, you may want to try the garlic to attract him and squirt the food into the tank with a baster if not already doing that. As far as the white poop, I am not sure about that. You may also want to try some algae with garlic on it and anchor it to one of the pvc pieces. See if the fish likes that.

RealReef7
08/18/2009, 06:07 PM
Ive had alot of flame angels... the ones that dont eat 1-4 days usually do not make it. Sorry to say. two ince seems a little small for a flame. Try nori or flakes.. other then that I dont know what to tell you.

CloruroDiSodio
08/19/2009, 08:31 AM
Thanks guys. What about trying live food?

CloruroDiSodio
08/19/2009, 06:38 PM
I can answer my own question, bought some live brine and put a drop of selcon with them, worked like a charm!! The angel came right out and was picking at them, the feeding frenzy also allowed me to feed it frozen blood worms. I'll say one thing persistance is key to this hobby.
There are still 20 or so brine swimming around in the 20gal QT tank (with limited filtration). Should I just leave them be and not stress out the fish or should I try to net them out? The angel didn't seem to eat the bigger brine so I'm a little scared they might just die after and possibly screw up the water?

sedor
08/19/2009, 07:20 PM
I would keep the angel in QT until you ween him onto frozen food.

thegrun
08/19/2009, 07:37 PM
Good news, glad to hear he is eating. As I read through the post, I was going to recommend live brine shrimp, looks like you were way ahead of the rest of us. I wouldn't worry about getting the brine shrimp out, they should live for a couple of days in regular salt water. If they die, then fish them out.

reefscape15
08/19/2009, 08:04 PM
If you can get a nice Algae covered rock to place in your QT until you can ween it onto prepared food, that is about the only way I would ever QT any Dwarf Angel. They are all very picky eaters, and most will not eat anything but live Algae that they can pick off the rocks for the first few weeks to a month or two. I place all my Dwarf Angels directly into the display. I know it's risky, but I have a lot of trust in my LFS, and they let me check out the fish for as long as I like before I purchase. I bought a False Lemonpeel that was about 2.5", and it took over 2 months before it would take anything prepared, but I have a nicely stocked fuge, and quite a bit of Macro and Micro algae on my rocks. I hope you have good luck with that little bugger!

CloruroDiSodio
08/20/2009, 08:06 AM
Hi reefscape15. I have some chaeto in my refugium and one of my larger rocks in the DT has caulpera on it, could I just pull the algae off the rock and the refugium and put it in the QT? I really don't have any "extra" live rock I could put in the QT tank.

reefscape15
08/20/2009, 03:29 PM
That may work, but If you have a small piece of PVC or something like that to "tie" or use a rubber band to secure the algae onto the object, it would act like a piece of LR. Angels like to graze and pick stuff off the rocks/glass. They don't really love to eat things that are floating around in the tank

reefscape15
08/20/2009, 03:30 PM
I doubt it will eat the Chaeto, but will most likely nip at the Caulerpa

CloruroDiSodio
08/21/2009, 10:56 AM
Thanks a lot. I pinned a piece of the caulpera under a chunk of base rock rubble that I removed from the DT so we'll see how it goes.

wooden_reefer
08/21/2009, 11:59 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15551126#post15551126 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CloruroDiSodio
Hi gang,

I'm going to tell my story regarding a newly purchased 2 inch flame angel and would like your opinions. Here goes: My LFS had the angel for about 1 week, they said it was eating good with no visible problems. I bought it and freshwater dipped it for 5 minutes everything was fine. I put it in a 20gal long QT tank with seeded sponge filters and PVC pipes for hiding. It swims around nicely and checks me out if I sit by the tank. It doesn't seem to want to eat however, I've tried frozen brine and mysis. It just kind of watches the food and ignores it. I left the food sit on the QT tank bottom for awhile and it picked one or two pieces but that was it. I siphoned the food out though since I don't want to muddy up the QT tank water. I noticed yesterday it had a long stringy white poop. I know this could be a sign of internal parasite or stress but it seems to be fine. Anyway how do you think I should proceed? Should I shorten the QT period and place in DT so it could feed off of the live rock etc? Is this a dumb thing to do? Any help would be appreciated as I would really like to do the right thing for the tank and the fish.

First, what is a seeded sponge? A seeded sponge, if I understand, is what you would want to include at the start of the cycle, not when you add a flame angel. (Unless the sponge is not just seeded but is large enough and has been cycled.) Plus, this fish is in general not for begineers because it does not eat well quickly. Begineers should get only a flame that feeds very well in the LFS, which means that a beginner may generally lose out to the experienced or foolish begineers.

You should have placed a source of ammonia with the seeded sponge and waited a few weeks beforce adding any fish in QT. This is cycling for the filter medium of QT.

Don't let the tail wag the dog. Rigor in QT is necessary. Cutting QT short is the same as but QTing.

You need to have been prepared for the flame angel. Cycing, UV ...

For the flame angel, I 'd delay eradication of ich by the use of a diatom filter and place mature live rock in QT for it to browse on.

CloruroDiSodio
08/21/2009, 01:15 PM
Hi wooden reefer, sorry maybe I didn't explain things correctly. By "seeded" I meant sponge filters that are already cycled, these have been in my sump for about 2 weeks. Also in this case the flame was eating fine at the dealers, it was there for about a week with no problems. Actually it is eating fine now on frozen food in QT after my initial live feed trial to get him comfortable. All is well. After having saltwater tanks for many years I have yet to lose a fish! Believe me I do my homework!

wooden_reefer
08/21/2009, 01:21 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15569367#post15569367 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CloruroDiSodio
Hi wooden reefer, sorry maybe I didn't explain things correctly. By "seeded" I meant sponge filters that are already cycled, these have been in my sump for about 2 weeks. Also in this case the flame was eating fine at the dealers, it was there for about a week with no problems. Actually it is eating fine now on frozen food in QT after my initial live feed trial to get him comfortable. All is well. After having saltwater tanks for many years I have yet to lose a fish! Believe me I do my homework!

Better, but two weeks may not be enough.

Also, if you just place a medium and circulate in a cycled and mature tank, you will not have a cycle but gradual growth of bacteria. This may be enough if for much longer than two weeks. You do not always need a cycle. I used "cycled" for brevity only.

Even in a cycled and stable tank, bacteria will gradually build in areas, spaces, that are the most ideal, meaning most oxygenated and ammonia rich, but this type of gradual growth takes much longer than two weeks.

The size of the spong is also a factor.

Also, ammonia is much more toxic than nitrite, which in turn is much more toxic than nitrate. If you sponge is quite large, within two weeks there may be enough for one two inch fish. May be. Chancy.

CloruroDiSodio
08/21/2009, 02:32 PM
Yep that's what we did, put the sponge filters in the mature DT to seed it with bacteria in the hopes of preventing a QT ammonia cycle. I do a 10% water change every other day in the QT as an additional precaution as well.

wooden_reefer
08/21/2009, 04:03 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15569774#post15569774 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CloruroDiSodio
Yep that's what we did, put the sponge filters in the mature DT to seed it with bacteria in the hopes of preventing a QT ammonia cycle. I do a 10% water change every other day in the QT as an additional precaution as well.

What does 10% water change in QT accomplish?

Changing 10-20% water in DT sometimes makes sense, in order to replenish or remove slow accumulating substances.

Changing 10% water in QT frequently does not materially alter anything, in general.

I am saying that if there is a reason to change water in QT, then changing just 10% generally makes no sense. I can't think of a situation in QT that calls for about 10% and only about 10% wc, or even just about 20%.

In general, 20% less ammonia or 20% less of most medications matters little.

wooden_reefer
08/21/2009, 04:12 PM
Also, if you do not have (enough) nitrification in QT, the rate of accumlation of ammonia is frequently not linear over time. Excretion of ammonia from fish may not be the largest sources of ammonia.

There is decay of fish poop and excess food. The rate of generation of ammonia may be exponential. If you change just even 50% of the water in QT without removing the decayable material, ammonia poisoning can still happen rather suddenly due to decay of waste.

wooden_reefer
08/21/2009, 05:03 PM
I only fresh water dip a fish if there is an urgent need. Otherwise, I view fresh water dip as contrary to correct gradual phyiscal acclimation.

I prefer not to handle a fish too much, if only for mental reason, that interferes with feeding well ASAP.

For fish that do not feed well quickly, I often use the diatom filter to simulate the dilution effect of the ocean, as far as parasites large enough to be filtered out, such as ich is concerned, and postphone eradication of ich. This way I can let the fish browse on live rock I add to QT.

chort55
08/21/2009, 05:35 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15570330#post15570330 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
What does 10% water change in QT accomplish?

Changing 10-20% water in DT sometimes makes sense, in order to replenish or remove slow accumulating substances.

Changing 10% water in QT frequently does not materially alter anything, in general.

I am saying that if there is a reason to change water in QT, then changing just 10% generally makes no sense. I can't think of a situation in QT that calls for about 10% and only about 10% wc, or even just about 20%.

In general, 20% less ammonia or 20% less of most medications matters little.

You'd probably cry if I told you how I set up my 1st tank, and acclimated my 1st fish LOL What he has done is fine, and the problem isn't with how he set up the qt so chill out on that mess. Alot of people set up their qt the day they get a new fish, with a new filter or do just like he did and grab the one off the display/sump that is really there just for this reason ;)