N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[tntneon]

hi reefers:) ,

In my country i hear positif results and stories about a new kind of bio degradeble polymer pellet which is capable of reducing N and P , like dosing vodka.

with the advantage that the bacteria only grow on the pellets (and not on glas and other surfaces) after a while you just change your filter sock or fluidising bed with new pellets.

does anyone of you in the states has any experience with this sorts of pellets ?

i have orderd me some of these pellets
will post it when i'm gonna start to use them.

greetingzz tntneon:)

[tntneon]

:o , i did forgot to post the link of the product

http://www.reefinterests.com/content/view/18/36/

greetingzz tntneon:)

[bertoni]

Hmm, well, the pellets might work. I'm not sure what the advantages might be, but let us know how it goes.

[kaskiles]

I read the product info. So if you use this filter media, is it supplying the organic carbon? Or do you still need to dose Vodka?

[tntneon]

Will do bertoni:) ,

I'm just as curious , this evening it was the first time i've read (heared) about it on ower local forum .

On ower local forum a few (lucky:)) members have tested them and they where very positif about it.

first i've got to wait a week until i got my buckett of pellets , then i'll post my findings...

greetingzz tntneon






:)

[tntneon]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15587609#post15587609 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kaskiles
I read the product info. So if you use this filter media, is it supplying the organic carbon? Or do you still need to dose Vodka?

No you don't have to dose carbon anymore ,
the pellest itself consits of an carbon source - polymer, where the bacteria live and grow on .

After 3 to 6 months you would have to replace the reduced pellets by new ones.

greetingzz tntneon:)

[ethank77]

interested to see if it work with out causing alge and bacterial blooms

[ethank77]

interested to see if it work with out causing alge and bacterial blooms

[tntneon]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15587736#post15587736 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ethank77
interested to see if it work with out causing alge and bacterial blooms
let's hope so:D
it's one of the proposed properties of the pellets , the food is in the pellet and not in the watercoloum.

i'm very eager to test this stuff !

greetingzz tntneon

:)

[tatuvaaj]

I have been testing this media for a week or so :) I use canister filter without the lid combined with a relatively small pump (500 l/h) inside the sump. The amount of bacteria biomass inside the filter is amazing; if I slightly disturb the media (to prevent channeling) I get very large amount of solid bacteria aggregates.

Unfortunately my skimmer died just when I received the media :( But even with seriously underpowered backup skimmer I'm already seeing reduction in nitrate concentration. Can't wait to see the results when I receive a new skimmer in a week or two ;)

I also dose vodka+sugar mixture but dropped the dosage to half after installing the pellets.

tntneon,
Is this product already available in shops?

[tatuvaaj]

Pictures of the filter and amount of bacteria produced. Excellent food for filter feeders :)

http://grumpyreefer.net/static/biopellets.jpg

http://grumpyreefer.net/static/biopelletsbak.jpg

[kaskiles]

How friable is that media? Is it rubbery, so you could bounce it around and fluidize it in an up-flow reactor? Sounds like it might be a good find. I wonder if the media is soluble in sea water?

[tatuvaaj]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15589424#post15589424 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kaskiles
How friable is that media? Is it rubbery, so you could bounce it around and fluidize it in an up-flow reactor? Sounds like it might be a good find.
Yes, it can be used in a reactor.
I wonder if the media is soluble in sea water?
The media has been developed specially for marine aquariums, it is not soluble (at least not significantly).

[tntneon]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15589040#post15589040 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tatuvaaj
I have been testing this media for a week or so :) I use canister filter without the lid combined with a relatively small pump (500 l/h) inside the sump. The amount of bacteria biomass inside the filter is amazing; if I slightly disturb the media (to prevent channeling) I get very large amount of solid bacteria aggregates.

Unfortunately my skimmer died just when I received the media :( But even with seriously underpowered backup skimmer I'm already seeing reduction in nitrate concentration. Can't wait to see the results when I receive a new skimmer in a week or two ;)

I also dose vodka+sugar mixture but dropped the dosage to half after installing the pellets.

tntneon,
Is this product already available in shops?

Hi Tatuvaaj ,

It`s nice to hear someone else on this forum is using it :)
keep us informed about your findings , i`m very intresseted.
How much has your no3 already dropped ?
Do the pellets float or sink ?
I would like to use them in a filter sock
I understand that the first real results come after a couple of weeks.

It `s still not available in the stores here , probably over a month or so.
But a friend on my local Dutch/Belgian forum has the privilege to test the stuff before it enters the stores and they are all very positif about it (marketing kept a side offcourse , i hope)
But if you pre order i can get some in two weeks or so (hopefully) :) , can`t wait untill i have the pellets.
because i would like the benefits of carbon dosing w/o the dosing:D

greetingzz tntneon:)

[tatuvaaj]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15589970#post15589970 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tntneon
How much has your no3 already dropped ?
I don't think it's fair to comment the performance yet ;) I would at least like to get skimming to the same level it was before the Biopellets...
Do the pellets float or sink ?
They sink but are very light weight.
But a friend on my local Dutch/Belgian forum has the privilege to test the stuff before it enters the stores and they are all very positif about it (marketing kept a side offcourse , i hope)
So far I've gotten the impression that this firm is not about marketing like so many other manufacturers ;) Actually, I think they should be marketing their Reefpearls product more aggressively; probably the best invertebrate foods I've tested so far :thumbsup:

[tntneon]

that is good news ,

I`m now even more eager to get these pearls:)
is an information draft included with these pearls , maybe some
guidelinens whether or not to dose carbon in combination with them ?

greetingzz tntneon:)

[tatuvaaj]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15590184#post15590184 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tntneon
is an information draft included with these pearls , maybe some
guidelinens whether or not to dose carbon in combination with them ?
That I don't know, I haven't seen the final packaging :) The manufacturer has been very helpful during the testing period.

You can use other organic carbon sources together with this product.

[kaskiles]

The solid organic carbon media is called 'Biopellets', and that same company's invert food is called 'Reef Pearls', correct?

Anyway, I hope we can get access to the Biopellets over in the US soon.

It would really make it easier to not have to dose the organic carbon; and it's insignificant solubility in seawater would alleviate a few organic carbon dosing concerns, such as bacteria overgrowth on coral and fish skin layers and the bacteria mats and blooms in the display tank...

[tatuvaaj]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15590988#post15590988 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kaskiles
The solid organic carbon media is called 'Biopellets', and that same company's invert food is called 'Reef Pearls', correct?
Yes :thumbsup: Links:

Reefpearls: http://www.reefinterests.com/content/view/14/32/
Biopellets: http://www.reefinterests.com/content/view/18/36/

[ethank77]

keep up the good work fellas I realy realy want to see the results of this product. after a wile more of testing as I am starting to dose mb7 for the same issues that this product may be able to resolve

[Nanook]

Looks like a very cool idea!

[tntneon]

yeah think so too , nanook

On ower local forum i have contacted the guy from reefintresets ,
with the question if it`s compatible with other dosages (vodka , amino,..) still waiting for a reply.

there like 3 to 4 other guys who are testing it.
one of the test dummy`s :) couldn`t get his no3 under 10 ppm after 2 weeks his no3 is stable at 2 ppm w/o the use of other helps .

can`t wait to test them ...:D

greetingzz tntneon:)

[jptenklooster]

Hello everybody,

I'm the person that developed the biopellets and to answer some questions:

-The pellets don't dissolve in water in the absence of bacteria

-they do not stimulate bacterial or algae growth in your tank and specially for the algae growth, this appears to be reduced and similar observations have been done for cyano bacteria when compaired to using soluble carbon sources such as wodka or sugar. big advantage is no more bacteria growth on your corals and unlimited carbon source to reduce nitrate and phosphate. My own tank consists of gorgonia combined with lps and sps corals. this requires feedings of 10x a day (with reefpearls ;-)) and I can keep nitrate between 0-5ppm and phosphate around 0-0.03 without the addition of wodka and phosphatekiller. this was for not possible before I started to use the biopellets.

-they are heavier than water and can be used in fluidized filter systems. we recommend this actually because this way you will always have high water flow and thus more aerobic conditions for your bacteria, which in principle is much safer than anaerobic conditions. On this point we have to say that some anaerobic bacteria will excist on the pellets, but this layer is so thin that is not harmfull and has a rather positive effect on your pH (aerobic-> H+; anaerobic -> OH-)

- the pellets are not on the market yet and will be released soon in the netherlands and belgium and other countries will hopefully soon folow. until that time you can contact me for questions at info@reefinterests.nl (I hope this allowed by admin, otherwise I apologize and please remove just this last sentence then).

-in contrast to what was mentioned, the pellets do not need to be replaced after 6 months. they are consumed by the bacteria and will slowly disappear, which means that you have to add extra pellets every 6-12 months. In one of our test conditions it took 3 years to completely digest the pellets. this is also the reason that you have to use at least 1 or 2 liters of these pellets (around 120 euro's) but it will last at least 1 year.

Wodka can still be combined with the pellets and will rapidly be consumed by the bacteria which live on the pellets, however, it is not necessary to do so, but when you need to finish the bottle of wodka, this is one way of doing it ;-)

Don't hesitate to ask any questions when things are not clear.

ciao,

jean paul

[ethank77]

I am realy interested in this product I wounder How long before it hits the states

[tntneon]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15589106#post15589106 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tatuvaaj
Pictures of the filter and amount of bacteria produced. Excellent food for filter feeders :)

http://grumpyreefer.net/static/biopellets.jpg

http://grumpyreefer.net/static/biopelletsbak.jpg

Hi Tatuvaay:) ,
Could you tell us where the placement of the canisterfilter is located in the sump ?
Does it pull it`s water in the displaydrain zone or in the return section , and where did you make the outlet of canister drain( return ,refugium ,displaydrain..)?

I already gonna make some adjustments to my sump that i can place the pellets right in:)

greetingzz tntneon

:)

[tatuvaaj]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15619673#post15619673 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tntneon
Could you tell us where the placement of the canisterfilter is located in the sump ?
Does it pull it`s water in the displaydrain zone or in the return section , and where did you make the outlet of canister drain( return ,refugium ,displaydrain..)?
It just sits on the bottom of the sump. I have a small powerhead pumping water into it. The water exits back to sump from the top (no lid). I have very high flow inside the sump so it doesn't make any difference where I place equipment :)

I initially used a 550 l/h pump but "upgraded" to a 1000 l/h powerhead. This pump is just powerful enough to cause slight simmering inside.

[kentrob11]

And it works?

[tntneon]

thx tatuvaaj ,

I don`t have any space left in my sump , so i think i`m gonna use an normal cannister filter (with the lit on) and place it outside of my sump.
I would place the pellets in the middle section , with some porcelin pipes in the bottom to even the flow (preventing channeling).
the suction side i will hang in the display drain zone and the pressure side in the return to display so that lose bacteria could make it to my corals as food:)

@Kentrob :
-It`s in the testing fase , but the testers where already positif about it , combining the advantages of carbon dosing w/o the daily dosing .
only after half a year you have to add some new ones in for ones who are digested by the bacteria.

-will keep you guys informed about my findings , yesterday i orderd mine:)

greetingzz tntneon:)

[tatuvaaj]

tntneon,
I don`t have any space left in my sump , so i think i`m gonna use an normal cannister filter (with the lit on) and place it outside of my sump.
I would place the pellets in the middle section , with some porcelin pipes in the bottom to even the flow (preventing channeling).
the suction side i will hang in the display drain zone and the pressure side in the return to display so that lose bacteria could make it to my corals as food:)
Sounds good :)

You could also put BioPellets in a media bag and place it in the sump. I might try that myself, I like to simplify the system as much as I can (but not too much ;))

[tntneon]

-That`s probably the easiest way , and if you put the mediabag directly under the drain pipe you also have enough oxiginated water flowing across the pellets i think.
Or in an overflowbox you will have simular conditions i think so.

I also like the idea to keep it simple :) ,
will try first with media bag if the result is good , then i`ll keep it that way.

greetingzz tntneon:)

[Genetics]

Sounds like an interesting idea. Do they mention how to properly setup the canister and the ideal flow rate to get the best results? I thought of many problems with this type of approach and wasn't sure if they demonstrate continual and constant controlled levels of N/P. The best, I speculate, would be a peak reduction and gradual (possibly significant) decline over time in their ability to control N/P.

Another issue would be once bacterial start to cover the surface it may work very similar to Zeoliths and not as described. It'll be interesting to see some data on it.

[tatuvaaj]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15627040#post15627040 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
Sounds like an interesting idea. Do they mention how to properly setup the canister and the ideal flow rate to get the best results?
I think the recommended setup is a fluidized bed reactor.
The best, I speculate, would be a peak reduction and gradual (possibly significant) decline over time in their ability to control N/P.
As the media is used up by the bacteria the available surface area will decline. For this reason you should add more pellets every 6-12 months (or as needed).
Another issue would be once bacterial start to cover the surface it may work very similar to Zeoliths and not as described. It'll be interesting to see some data on it.
I don't see how this media could be compared to zeoliths which function only as a inorganic surface for bacteria to grow – there are a many porous filter media that does that (and many would say better than zeoliths ;)). The BioPellets are more like a solid bacteria food. If you use flow rate fast enough to constantly export some bacterial biomass, I don't see how the performance would drop noticeably over time.

[ksed]

Tatu

Good work!
How would I know how much media to use , given the bioload in different tanks. Can you over dose on these pellets. If you have low nutrients but want to bring them down just a bit more, but at the same time you don't want to starve the system. Or should I say can you over dose.

Thanks

Kevin

[tatuvaaj]

Hi Kevin!

I've only used the pellets two weeks so I'm no expert ;) I'm sure the inventor (jptenklooster) will give you the right answers. I personally don't believe you can have "too low" concentration of inorganic nutrients in an aquarium.

I can't even really evaluate the performance of BioPellets yet because I still don't have a working skimmer :mad2:

[tntneon]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15627040#post15627040 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
Sounds like an interesting idea. Do they mention how to properly setup the canister and the ideal flow rate to get the best results? I thought of many problems with this type of approach and wasn't sure if they demonstrate continual and constant controlled levels of N/P. The best, I speculate, would be a peak reduction and gradual (possibly significant) decline over time in their ability to control N/P.

Another issue would be once bacterial start to cover the surface it may work very similar to Zeoliths and not as described. It'll be interesting to see some data on it.

- The best set-up , if you have the space would be an fluidizing reaktor.
due that i got no more space in my sump,
I`m gonna put a media bag in the section where my drainpipes from display enters a little under / overflow box.
I think that the water there is turbid and oxigenated enough , that it won`t form H2S gas (see reefintrests).
If i then stir the bag weekly around so that created biomass can exit the bag and channeling is prevented it would work i think...:)

reefintrests :
"Important! When the water flow in the pellet filter is too low, this may result in a large population of anaerobic bacteria, with the possible danger of H2S production. Always maintain high water flow through the filter in order to get optimal results."

greetingzz tntneon:)

[kaskiles]

I really want to put about 500 ml of this into one of my BRS cartridges and remove the top sponge. Then adjust the flow to where it bounces really good, but doesn't blow-out. Maybe even hook the outlet of it directly into my display tank return line...

I have no sand or rock in my tank, so I keep a 9" square, 4" think porous silica block in my sump. I'd like to remove the block to free up some sump space. I think this media would be really high efficiency for bacterial processing of organics in general, and ammonia in particular.

Having the bacteria filter hanging up above my sump in the BRS reactor would really free up the space. Outputting the fluidized bed directly into the tank might provide some bacteria to the corals to eat, and the rest should hopefully come back down the drain to my skimmer.

I may set this up as a prototype with some course aragonite, until the Biopellets become available over here in the US.

[tntneon]

hi kaskiles ,

-I don`t know what a brs cartridge is , but i do follow your idea of having a fluidizing area in your display returnzone .
I think it`s a cool idea , this i would like to do in my next sump .
Only i don`t know how much they would swirl and maybe overflow to the next zone , we have to restrict them somehow.

-why do you have an porous silica block in your sump ?

some sort of filtration i didn`t heared about ??:D

greetingzz tntneon:)

[kaskiles]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15631597#post15631597 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tntneon

-why do you have an porous silica block in your sump ?

some sort of filtration i didn`t heared about ??:D


It is this:
http://www.marinedepot.com/ReefresH2O_BioMedia_9x9x4_Inch_Block_Clay_Fired_Ceramic_Mechanical_Filter_Media-ReefresH2O-NY01008-FIFMMECF-vi.html

and it's really not much different than placing some live rock in your sump, except it's made out of silica based material instead of calcium carbonate (and may be more porous).

The block is used passively, and might house some anaerobic bacteria for denitrification. But I think I'd get more organic consumption/conversion on the non-passive use of the Biopellets in an up-flow reactor. I also am not convinced I'm getting any dentrification, I might just be skimming all my N out before it can be converted to nitrate (I can never measure any on LaMotte)...

[tntneon]

- oke thx ,
I didn`t knew that was out there , something learned again :)

The fact that they don`t dissolve and that the bacteria have to eat it from the pellets is a big advantage , i think.
Having no bacteria slime in display , cyano won`t up take the carbon in the display and hopefully will not thrive on the given carbon source.

When i have the pelletes i `ll will post changes in parameters or others.

Now i have stopped dosing vodka for over an month .
I stopped because i went on a holiday , an when i came back my corals where looking very fine , zoas even better.
Also there was some cyano covering my sand i was scarred that the vodka would boost the cyano`s.
When i was dosing vodka my no3 was 0.2 ppm and my po4 was 0 ,
Now a month after i stopped vodka no3 is 2 ppm and po4 still 0 ,
i still have a few GHA spots (during vodka period started and now declining???)
and a little cyano on the sand (not expanding).
Then one other thing , after stopping vodka there are again a lot more pods in my refugium then with the carbon.

These are the key points that i will monitor when i have the pellets in my sump.

greetingzz tntneon

:)

[Ralph ATL]

tagging along

[tntneon]

-This afternoon the package with bio pellets have arrived:)
For now i`ve put them in the panty stockings of my wife and putted them in the display drain section of my sump>
For now i say because i saw that within a few houres some of the small holes in the stockings become plugged with detrius and thus decreasing the flow thru the media.
I will poke the bag every day around for now.
I `m gonna make some sort of box with holes that fit around my drainpipe from display , slightly larger then the drain pipe itself and completly inclosing the pipe for maximum fluidising.
tomorow i`ll post some pics , then it wil be not so hot here hopefully....:)

greetingzz tntneon:)

[tntneon]

hi reefers ,
As promised some pics of the biopellets and set -up where i`m gonna test them in.

here are the start water parameters :

S.G. =1.0262 (lab densitymeter)
NO3=0.3 (salifer)
PO4=0 on salifer kit , but on lab icp tested around 0.05 (measuring all P (in and anorganic))
Ca =420
Kh=9 Dkh
Mg =1320

They are fine , though i have some GHA in the middle on the 2 big rocks and some little bit of cyano on the sand if you look very good (foto resizer takes all of the detail out).
I also have to clean the glass of the display more often the before ,every 2 days at least (when dosing previously vodka this was less)

here `s my nano tank for the moment :

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/194079tank_start_9_9_09.jpg

-The pellets have diameter of +/- 5 mm (= +/-1/5 inch)and are more heavy then water.
They have a consistency that resembles that of unboiled pasta from a supermarket.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/194079zak_biopellets.jpg

-I putted it the drain area of my display drain where the flow is the higest due to smaal volume of the chamber.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/194079bag_in_sump.jpg

-You can also see that the panty is clogging detrius where the flow is the greathest , thats why fluidizing reactors will probably be the best for this media as for most other media.

greetingzz tntneon:)

[tatuvaaj]

tntneon,

:thumbsup:

Please keep us updated! I am still waiting for my skimmer so no updates from me :mad2:

[tntneon]

-I `ve already removed the panty of my wife and puted the pellets dirctly into the drainpipe box.
I did`nt knew what to expect , would they be blown away??
It was a good decision , now the pellets gently fluidizing in that box:D , w/o entering other area`s of the sump.
The pellets are dense enough that they won`t be blown away .

The dimensions of the box are 4"X4" an has under and overflow holes but on the bottom of the box there lays an bleu filter pad , preventing that the pellets would go thru the underflow holes .
Flow thru the box is approximitly 450 g/h or 1600 l/h.

will post some pictures later on...

greetingzz tntneon:)

[tntneon]

here`s the situation now...

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/194079pellets_los.jpg

Now i`m gonna post if i see any changes , water clarity is a little
bit beter perhaps then yesterday , but it is way to soon to do some evaluations.

greetingzz tntneon:)

[erbio]

Very cool. Tagging a long.

[tntneon]

hi reefers ,

I`m starting to see the first signs of the pellets.

At first the cyano on the sand had got a little bit worse (but nothing to be worrying about) , don`t know it was due to the first adaptation from the pellets or something else.
I syphoned it out and it hasn`t come back :) (in 4 days).

The second thing i noticed the following days was more water clarity , and the coloration of my stylophora has improved significaly (my wife also noticed it) back more purple:D .
That coloration was fading since i stoped dosing ethanol 0.5ml /25g a day (i stopped dosing 2 months ago).
this was for me realy the proof that i was actualy dosing carbon in a solid way:)

Nitrate dropped a bit from 0.5 to 0.2 ppm (lowest on salifert) , but these were always low.
I didn`t had the opportunity to test phosphates on the lab icp , this is something i will do later on this week.
gha is still present but never showing expansion (luckely).

One of the fine advantages of carbon dosing are also comming back to me , i can now wait three days for cleaning the glass !!!:eek1:

for now i`m very happy with the product , and i will keep posting changes good or bad.

greetingzz tntneon:)

[buddah001]

Are these available here in the states. If so where?

[erbio]

+ 1, I want to try this already...

[tntneon]

-It won`t be in the stores yet in the states , but you can always ask jptenklooster, the developer of the product , about it ;) .
He posted some great info regarding this product on the first page of this topic.
Will ask him when he`s online on the local forum , he will be busy i think.
Here it`s also not available in the stores yet ,
got mine by post.

-there`s one parameter that i`ll keep an eye on , that i forgot to mention , is the development of the Chaeto in my refugium.
With the previous dosing of carbon i saw that as the nutrients dropped that the growth of my chaeto was slowing .
I hope that this effect will be less now .
For now this is not the case :) .


greetingzz tntneon:)

[tntneon]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15696452#post15696452 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by buddah001
Are these available here in the states. If so where?

-The pellets will be in a month in the stores in europe , Jptenkloosters also mentioned that outside europe it will be a little bit longer (how much longer he didn`t mention).

The results are still very good :) .
The GHA is now covered with cyano , it looks like cyano is the thoughest of all the bad algea , and in a desperate queste for NO3/ PO4 , it`s attacking the GHA , i think ?
any opinions regarding my thought here ?

If the GHA disappears and cyano would shortly follow this would be a very good thing , because even with normal vodka dosing i didn`t seem to do any harm to the GHA.

Chaeto isn`t that great , it`s still green , but it has come more dense and it is growing alot slower than 2 weeks ago:rolleyes:
something i whitnessed with vodka too.
to low nutrients for the macro ?

greetingzz tntneon:)

[HighlandReefer]

The cyano is tougher than most algae in that it can derive its needed P directly from organic matter. Probably the algae is dieing off and the cyano is feeding on the decaying algae.

IME, the cyano will persist until the organic build-up from the dieing algae is removed from your water column. In other words, removing as much of the algae and cyano from your water column will increase the rate you acheive control of both the algae and cyano.

Do you believe the bacterial population in your aquarium water column is less than that found when dosing vodka?

[tntneon]

In my first observations, i would think so .
While previously dosing vodka i saw more slimery strings (bacterial )on the rock .
But i have to mention that i was dosing pure ethanol at a rate of
0.4ml/25g ( a fairly high dosage) , and i found it hard to dose this daily and correct.

The third or forth day i had the pellets in my system , i saw a little bit of slimery string appearing on the rock , but now i see non.
water clarity is great (beter than ever), and i hope that the cyano will leave the system soon after they eaten the GHA .
And sometimes i can wait 3 day to clean glass , sometimes 2 days.
hopefully this could be extended to 4 or 5 day clean , then i would be really happy:D , i love reefing but cleaning the glass is not my favorite thing to do :)

greetingzz tntneon:)

[tntneon]

I had the change again to measure my phosphorus on a lab icp.
they have dropped to 0.01 ppm:) organic and inorganic P , NO3 is about 0.1 ppm on the salifert kit.
I syphoned the cyanos`s from the dying GHA , it `s realy cool that i now can syphon them both off .
I had a little bit of cyano back on the sand as well .
Hopefully the pellets won`t fuel the cyano`s (as they are bacteria to )?

water clarity and coral coloration is very good as well growth rates.


greetingzz tntneon:)

[tatuvaaj]

tntneon,

Great news!

I moved the pellets from canister filter to a media bag. I think it's easier that way. I also got my new skimmer, finally! :celeb1:

I'm now using less than half vodka+sugar mix I did before and I'm already seeing nitrates dropping closer to zero. Unfortunately I still have a lot of phosphates, I think I'm going to add some GFO to get PO4 concentration down.

[erbio]

Perhaps you should only use the pellets and see how fast the levels drop? That would help tremendously. If I can see that this product works I plan to purchase a good amount and sell it in the states at no profit. I think this product could be huge if it works well.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15737420#post15737420 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tatuvaaj
tntneon,

Great news!

I moved the pellets from canister filter to a media bag. I think it's easier that way. I also got my new skimmer, finally! :celeb1:

I'm now using less than half vodka+sugar mix I did before and I'm already seeing nitrates dropping closer to zero. Unfortunately I still have a lot of phosphates, I think I'm going to add some GFO to get PO4 concentration down.

[tatuvaaj]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15737503#post15737503 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by erbio
Perhaps you should only use the pellets and see how fast the levels drop? That would help tremendously. If I can see that this product works I plan to purchase a good amount and sell it in the states at no profit. I think this product could be huge if it works well.
erbio,

I might do that in future but currently I don't have enough pellets. The amount I use was chosen with the DOC dosing in mind. My goal was to reduce the dosing as I had to add quite large amounts (20+ ml/day) to keep the nutrients in check... I still think some DOC dosing can benefit at least some filter feeders like sponges.

But maybe I'm wrong and producing bacterioplankton is more beneficial than feeding the symbiotic bacteria inside sponges?

[tntneon]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15737420#post15737420 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tatuvaaj
tntneon,

Great news!

I moved the pellets from canister filter to a media bag. I think it's easier that way. I also got my new skimmer, finally! :celeb1:

I'm now using less than half vodka+sugar mix I did before and I'm already seeing nitrates dropping closer to zero. Unfortunately I still have a lot of phosphates, I think I'm going to add some GFO to get PO4 concentration down.

:) a good skimmer is essential , good luck with the new one.
last week i putted my DIY skimmer as well as a new DIY sump under my display , not that my old one was bad , but i couldn`t resist the urge to built me a larger one myself:) .
I have 2 hobby`s reefing and DIY reef stuff making...:D

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/194079nieuwe_sump.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/194079nieuwe_sump2.JPG

Tatuvaaj ,
You sad that the po4 is quite high , how high may i ask ?
Do you have algea or did you have them ?

"...maybe I'm wrong and producing bacterioplankton is more beneficial than feeding the symbiotic bacteria ..."

I think so too , and this is an effect i`m already seeying on the corals , my stylopora and acropora are looking more colorfull and more PE than ever , this will be the result of bacterioplancton i think .

with me the media bag cloged after 2 days , thus decreasing the flow through the media:rolleyes:
I like it more now , in the display drain box .

greetingzz tntneon:)

[tatuvaaj]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15740989#post15740989 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tntneon
:) a good skimmer is essential , good luck with the new one.
I've had the new foam machine a week now and it is the best I've had, ATB Medium.

last week i putted my DIY skimmer as well as a new DIY sump under my display , not that my old one was bad , but i couldn`t resist the urge to built me a larger one myself:)
Very nice! I'm not so good with DIY myself ;)
You sad that the po4 is quite high , how high may i ask ?
Extremely high, 0.1 ppm PO4 and about 2 ppm NO3
Do you have algea or did you have them ?
That's the strangest thing! I did not have any algae problems. I was actually so curious about this that I started to dose some extra iron but couldn't produce any major algae growth :confused:

But things happen fast here: like I said I moved the Biopellets from the canister filter to a media bag inside sump. This effectively cleaned all bacteria from the pellets (a lot!) that I allowed to flow into the display tank.

This morning I decided to check the water parameters again and much to my surprise almost all my nutrient problems had vanished. Now I have < 0.02 ppm PO4 and < 0.2 ppm NO3! I must say that is very impressive result! Water was also noticeably clearer.

I'll see how it goes for a couple of days and then I'll start to reduce the DOC dosing again to find out just how much DOC the Biopellets can replace.

[tntneon]

-Sounds very intresting :)
With me it`s been quite the opposite , low nutrients but always some sort of algea that i have to keep an eye on, never had any massive outbreaks luckly .
GHA is now the longest with me , even with previous carbon dosing it would stay .
This is the reason i wanted to try this methode.

greetingzz tntneon

:)

[TheDogFather]

Sounds like synthetic Zeolites. If the cost of this product is 120 Euros ($177) per liter per year, it is still quite a bit more expensive than an actual Zeolite ($15/Liter for Zeovit's Zeolites for example) when replaced every six weeks...

What makes this product better for the increased cost over traditional Zeolites besides that it has to be replaced less frequently?

Thanks!

-TDF

[kaskiles]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15746707#post15746707 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TheDogFather
What makes this product better for the increased cost over traditional Zeolites besides that it has to be replaced less frequently?


1. The organic carbon is embedded in the media, so you do not have to dose vodka, glucose, etc. This eliminates tricky daily dosing regimes, and/or expensive sophisticated dosing equipment. Also, overdosing would not be possible.

2. Since the organic carbon is embedded in the media, and is not water soluble/miscible; it cannot travel out into the tank water and feed bacteria growing in other places (mats on rocks, diseases on fish and corals).

3. The media probably does not absorb Potassium, and other inorganic materials, like Zeolites. Possibly avoiding extra dosing additives and trace elements.

4. The media should not be friable, so if it is fluidized in an up-flowing media reactor, it should not release mineral fines into the display tank that can settle out on coral surfaces (possibly irritating them).

A drawback may be that the Zeolites might be better at bacterial denitrification.

[liver]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15746707#post15746707 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TheDogFather
Sounds like synthetic Zeolites. If the cost of this product is 120 Euros ($177) per liter per year, it is still quite a bit more expensive than an actual Zeolite ($15/Liter for Zeovit's Zeolites for example) when replaced every six weeks...

What makes this product better for the increased cost over traditional Zeolites besides that it has to be replaced less frequently?

Thanks!

-TDF

It appears that this product replaces more then just the zeolites, it replaces a good part of that system or at least the part that gets you to ULNS. Also, I think your doses are not comparable a liter of this doesn't equal 1 liter of zeolite.

? for jean paul do you need to add bacteria every so often like with zeo and prohibo or because the bacteria live on the carbon food source this isn't necessary?

[tntneon]

It appears that this product replaces more then just the zeolites, it replaces a good part of that system or at least the part that gets you to ULNS. Also, I think your doses are not comparable a liter of this doesn't equal 1 liter of zeolite.

? for jean paul do you need to add bacteria every so often like with zeo and prohibo or because the bacteria live on the carbon food source this isn't necessary?
Hi liver ,
I asked JP on the local forum the question you asked here (he`s probably very busy now, to read all his posts:spin2:).
He answered that the pellets do not need any suplemental dosings of bacteria and/or others.
He pointed out that this was one of the big advantages , less dosing and the same result .

greetingzz tntneon:)

[McSassy]

here`s the situation now...

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/194079pellets_los.jpg

Now i`m gonna post if i see any changes , water clarity is a little
bit beter perhaps then yesterday , but it is way to soon to do some evaluations.

greetingzz tntneon:)

Looks like you have it soundproofed as well. Does that create any additional heat in the tank? How well does it absorb the noises from the tank as well?

[jptenklooster]

It appears that this product replaces more then just the zeolites, it replaces a good part of that system or at least the part that gets you to ULNS. Also, I think your doses are not comparable a liter of this doesn't equal 1 liter of zeolite.

? for jean paul do you need to add bacteria every so often like with zeo and prohibo or because the bacteria live on the carbon food source this isn't necessary?



no addition of extra bacteria are required. the source of bacteria for the pellets are the bacteria that you introduce in your tank through life-rock.

Regarding zeoliet, I think this and previous comments are correct and clear enough.

regards,

jp

[tntneon]

Looks like you have it soundproofed as well. Does that create any additional heat in the tank? How well does it absorb the noises from the tank as well?
honestly , not so much:)
like you can see on my lastest picture , i removed the sound insulation...

greetingzz tntneon:)

[tmz]

:wavehand:Hi Tatu. Certainly sounds convenient but how do we know the carbon source in the ploymer beads are not miscible and will not simply diffuse through the system like ethanol.,etc. Wouldn't a carbon reactor do much the same thing in terms of segregating the organic carbon and bacteria?

[tatuvaaj]

Tom,

I can only report that all signs seem to indicate that no (or insignificant amounts of) DOC is leached from the pellets. I reduced my vodka+sugar dosing to less than half and bacterial growth on surfaces has declined greatly (as you would expect).

The pellets themselves are insoluble and very hard.

[tmz]

Thanks, Tatu

[erbio]

Any updates guys?

[tntneon]

Things are pretty the same with me ;) .

Water is very clear and waterparameters are stable, no3=0.2 and po4=0.
But GHA is still present in my display as is cyano who covers it , from time to time i syphon them away.
Sometimes the sand has a little bit of cyano too , this was something i was experiencing too with liquid carbon dosing (vodka or wodka).
I do have less bacterial strings (almost none) in my display then with original vodka dosing.
that`s the evidence for my , that the pellets don`t dissolve

coloration and PE are great and never seen before in my system:eek1:.

I hope , some reefers here on RC can soon test those pellets too.
They could bring in more info then i ever can , with a better understanding of the englisch language (<--- you see:hmm6:).

greetingzz tntneon :)

[thejuggernaut]

Im wondering what something like this would do for someone who is running a fish only tank that doesnt have alot of live rock. I know they are frowned upon by alot of people but a Wet/Dry or Fluidized sand bed followed inline by some of these pellets might be a winning combination for a FO tank.

[kaskiles]

I'd think they would be a replacement for the wet/dry and fluidized sand filters. Mostly because I think they are a substrate for aerobic bacteria, like the wet/dry and fluidized sand. You would use them like the wet/dry or fluidized sand, and their advantage over bio-balls and fluffy sand would be their ability to feed organic carbon to the attached heterotrophic bacteria they are hosting.

[tmz]

If the pellets are an organic carbon source which I believe they are. it would be of benefit to heterotrophic bacteria. Autotrophs don't need organic carbon and do fine with CO2.

[tntneon]

If the pellets are an organic carbon source which I believe they are. it would be of benefit to heterotrophic bacteria. Autotrophs don't need organic carbon and do fine with CO2.

Can you explain to me what the difference is between autotrophs and hetrotrophic bacteria ?
my understanding of micro biology elementary ;).

greetingzz tntneon :)

[thejuggernaut]

Heterotrophic bacteria are the first to develop on a sand bed. Heterothrophs are simply bacteria that use organic compounds for their carbon source. Just like you Newbies, they chow down on just about anything that is placed in front of them. When the compound is something like a protein, that contains nitrogen, some of that nitrogen is excreted as ammonia. This of course is toxic to fish and invertebrates.

There is another group of bacteria, called autotrophs, that get their carbon directly from carbon dioxide. As an energy source they oxidize ammonia to create nitrite and nitrates. The problem with autotrophs is they do not grow nearly as fast as heterotrophs (the only thing slower is that Newbie mind of yours) and it takes time to seed a UGF with sufficient numbers to do much good. Usually it takes 7-10 days for enough nitrifying bacteria to populate a filter and allow it to convert ammonia to less toxic forms. It is interesting that there is a large debate on which bacteria actually accomplish nitrification in an aquarium. Candidates are, but not limited to, Nitrosomonas, Nitrosococcus, Nitrosospira, Nitrobacter, Nitrosovibrio, Nitrosolobus, and Nitrospina. No matter what the genus is involved, the heterothrophs produce the ammonia and carbon dioxide on which the nitrifying bacteria live so they form a close association with them in the filter media.

This is a quote from a thread started by Waterkeeper. He gives a pretty good definition of different types of filters both biological and mechanical...check it out...

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=707105

P.S. this quote I got was off the top of page 2.

[tatuvaaj]

Too much happening in my tank to give any meaningful update :mad2:

I'll have to get out all the extra PO4 with GFO, concentration back @ 0.1-0.2 ppm :eek1:

[kaskiles]

running a fish only tank that doesnt have alot of live rock.

Ok, you and Waterkeeper have changed my mind. I guess you would want a trickle filter or fluidized sand filter with the fluidized biopellet filter.

[ksed]

Too much happening in my tank to give any meaningful update :mad2:

I'll have to get out all the extra PO4 with GFO, concentration back @ 0.1-0.2 ppm :eek1:

Tatu

Are the pellets not working for you or is there some thing going on in the tank?

Thanks

Kevin

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !



... We advise using 0.5-1 liter of pellets per 500 liter of system volume, and adding 100 ml of pellets every 3-6 months. Of note, these ratios depend on tank conditions and are strongly influenced by feeding regimes and livestock. When heavy feeding is required, we advise to combine the pellets with standard phosphate adsorbents. ...

Biopellet description
http://www.reefinterests.com/content/view/18/36/


Shouldn't be surprising that a phosphate binder may be required in some circumstances.


HTH
:thumbsup:

[thejuggernaut]

Ok, you and Waterkeeper have changed my mind. I guess you would want a trickle filter or fluidized sand filter with the fluidized biopellet filter.

yea...that is what I was figuring...im def waiting till I hear from a few more people trying these out. But it they work as well as other are stating it might just be a set it and forget it kinda deal...

[tatuvaaj]

Are the pellets not working for you or is there some thing going on in the tank?
Kevin,

Just too much phosphate stored on surfaces. I just received 5 liters of high capacity GFO so I'm hoping that will take care of it :)

[thejuggernaut]

From what I understand liverock and sand beds can hold a lot of phosphates. Just gotta give it time to leach back out.

[ksed]

Kevin,

Just too much phosphate stored on surfaces. I just received 5 liters of high capacity GFO so I'm hoping that will take care of it :)

Thanks Tatu

Keep us updated, it should come back down again':thumbsup:

[tntneon]

...
This is a quote from a thread started by Waterkeeper. He gives a pretty good definition of different types of filters both biological and mechanical...check it out...

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=707105

P.S. this quote I got was off the top of page 2.

Thx juggernaut ;) ,

very informatif link , it was a big read !!
But as ever , it`s a one of the waterkeeper , informatif and funny the same time:)

greetingz tntneon :)

[tntneon]

Too much happening in my tank to give any meaningful update :mad2:

I'll have to get out all the extra PO4 with GFO, concentration back @ 0.1-0.2 ppm :eek1:

sad to hear tatuvaaj ,
Did you had loss of some kind (hermits , snails ..) ?

You did just stopped your regular vodka dosing , that can induce increasing PO4 numbers , your skimmer was broken , and you have a new one now , i think the system has to cure a little bit from those changes.
If i was you i would use the pellets in a fluidizing bed , like you did before.
I was amazed how simple it was to make one , a small narrow glass vaze put in the sump , where a drainpipe from display or recycle line from return pump drains can create the fluidizing motion for the pellets.

I have positif results with the pellets , cyano is not so present on the sand anymore and GHa is very slow moving out :)
Water very clear , corals coloration en PE are also great !
NO3 stays at a stable 0.2 ~0.5 ppm and PO4 is zero

greetingzz tntneon :)

[Frogmanx82]

Any response from soft corals which tend to need a bit of nitrate and phosphate?

[tntneon]

Any response from soft corals which tend to need a bit of nitrate and phosphate?

I don`t have any softies .
I have sps (acro,stylopora ,fungia ,favia) ,lps(tortch & hammer) and some zoas (mean green , brown ones and pink) and they all do fine.
Only my Chaeto is growing much slower and i noticed less bioactivity in the chaeto ball , this i had with normal vodka dosing too.

greetingzz tntneon :)

[Frogmanx82]

There hasn't been any discussion on skimmer performance. For vodka dosing it's all about getting a thicker darker skimmate. Are there skimmer recommendations that go along with this? I don't have a sump and I'm under skimming because I just don't have the space. Does this rule out use of this product?

I have softies and some lps so I don't need pristine water, but I would like to control diatoms and GHA.

[tatuvaaj]

sad to hear tatuvaaj ,
Did you had loss of some kind (hermits , snails ..) ?
No, I don't think those are so sensitive. Most azooxanthellae animals are suffering though, especially the "Blueberry gorgonian" and a large Ptilocaulis sp. sponge. The gorgonian was growing very well but now has only a few polyps alive :mad2:

You did just stopped your regular vodka dosing , that can induce increasing PO4 numbers , your skimmer was broken , and you have a new one now , i think the system has to cure a little bit from those changes.
Absolutely! I have now added two liters of DIAKAT-B+ and phosphate is already @ 0.07 ppm.
If i was you i would use the pellets in a fluidizing bed , like you did before.
Already did that ;) Although mine is not really a "fluidizing" but I installed a long flexible air stone gadget on the bottom of the canister and I use a timer to start small air pump every 12 hours. This drives out most of the bacteria.

Water very clear , corals coloration en PE are also great !
I also noticed better water clarity when I started to use the pellets. I haven't noticed any difference in coral pigmentation but the colors were OK to start with. And my Oxymonacanthus longirostris takes care of PE ;)

[tntneon]

...And tatuvaaj is the system recovering ?

For me the pellets work fine the GHA is definitly moving away , as some caulerpa that was hidding between my bali polyps (nothing worse) i had forgot.
Is complely away:rollface:.
No3 is less than 0.2 ppm now on the salifer kit ( Po4 stayed zero) .

In the evening , when actinics are only on , i extra manualy stir the bed of swirling pellets to get some bacteria (plankton?) from the fluidizing box to my display.
I never have massive build up of bacteria in the box , but if i stir it rough there comes an extra little bit of bacterial detrius or something free to feed the corals.

greetingzz tntneon :)

[Genetics]

Tntneon, are you thinking that these solid forms of pellets will be enough to completely remove the necessity of daily organic dosing? I would think that it would be beneficial if small amounts of the pellets would dissolve into the water column to help promote bacterioplankton. However, maybe enough of that is being generated at the sight of the pellets?

[Frogmanx82]

So when can these be ordered in the US?

[tatuvaaj]

...And tatuvaaj is the system recovering
Yes :thumbsup:

I've ordered more Biopellets, I'm going to use 2-2.5 liters. According to manufacturer that should be enough for my tank (240 gallons). I hope I will be able to stop DOC dosing completely. But we'll see... ;)

[tatuvaaj]

So when can these be ordered in the US?

You can order them from http://www.npbiopellets.com.

Ordering from them will also help coralscience.org :thumbsup:

[Frogmanx82]

Well, I sent an email telling them I would like to try a liter. My nitrates aren't bad, barely showing any color on the test, but phosphate is high at 1 ppm. I could also go with gfo but it would be nice to get the nitrates non detect.

[tntneon]

Tntneon, are you thinking that these solid forms of pellets will be enough to completely remove the necessity of daily organic dosing? I would think that it would be beneficial if small amounts of the pellets would dissolve into the water column to help promote bacterioplankton. However, maybe enough of that is being generated at the sight of the pellets?

-For my system (witch is a small one) , it looks that it`s enough carbon dosing .
I`ve withnesed a few times that i had some bacterial strings on the background , so bacterial action in the display is also higher i think.
And every day when istir the pellets there comes some extra bacterioplancton (or detrius from the bacteria ?) in the system that the corals do like.

I`m very happy with them , no3 testkit is`t coloring at all as does the po4 kit
the coral `s all seem to be very happy (great PE and growth).

I dose every day :salifer all in one (3 drops @25 g)
salifer calcium plus (2 ml @25 g)
easy life carbonate plus (1/2 spoon)
2 times a week :easylife trace elements (0.5ml @ 25g)
easylifefluoride / iodide complex (2ml@25g)

This is all i dose in combination with the n/p reducing pellets , no additional vodka or bacteria are dosed.

-The only down fall is the stagnating growth of my macro algea in the refugium and less pods in it then w/o carbon dosing.

greetingzz tntneon :)

[tntneon]

Well, I sent an email telling them I would like to try a liter. My nitrates aren't bad, barely showing any color on the test, but phosphate is high at 1 ppm. I could also go with gfo but it would be nice to get the nitrates non detect.
I don`t know what they do and in what time span for the reduction of po4 .
I never had any issues with po4 (always reading zero).
But i`m very curious to know , keep us informed ;)

greetingzz tntneon :)

[Genetics]

Tntneon, this will be very interesting to watch over the next few months. Any idea what could be in these pellets that allow them to last for such a duration?

[tntneon]

Tntneon, this will be very interesting to watch over the next few months. Any idea what could be in these pellets that allow them to last for such a duration?

I don't know what's in it , but i could ask Jptenklooster what is in the pellets , i don't know if he wants to share this info (the secret of the cook:p);

And he 's busy , he's become a father again....:dance: , it's a girl
will ask him on the local forum.

greetingzz tntneon :)

[Frogmanx82]

I didn't get a response from my skimmer question. Carbon dosing typically uses the skimmer to get the bacteria out of the tank and that functions to remove the nitrogen and phosphate.

From what I gather, the bacteria grow on the pellets and we get the conversion of nitrate to N2 and I'm not sure what happens to the phosphate. Since the bacteria are more or less fixed on the pellets, this form of carbon dosing is less dependent on good skimming.

Am I understanding this correctly? What does happen to the phosphate? Will there be a change to the skimmate using the pellets?

[tntneon]

I didn't get a response from my skimmer question. Carbon dosing typically uses the skimmer to get the bacteria out of the tank and that functions to remove the nitrogen and phosphate.

From what I gather, the bacteria grow on the pellets and we get the conversion of nitrate to N2 and I'm not sure what happens to the phosphate. Since the bacteria are more or less fixed on the pellets, this form of carbon dosing is less dependent on good skimming.

Am I understanding this correctly? What does happen to the phosphate? Will there be a change to the skimmate using the pellets?

There`s definitly more bacterial action in the display as well ,
what it does to the po4 removal i don`t know .
I think good skimming is also important with this kind of carbon dosing.

Between the pellets i have almost no build up of bacteria or else (i do stir every day) , so i think the bacteria will grow fast in and on the surface of the pellets (and comsuming them) and when the pellet surface becomes overcrowed , you get some sort of export of bacteria (leeching , diffusing ,..?) to the display as well (2 week start up period) .
I don`t have evidence of this all , it`s all based of what i noticed the past 2 month`s.

greetingzz tntneon :)

[Genetics]

tntneon, I would agree with you. I am under the impression that using this method would still require a good skimmer.

[tntneon]

-Are there any of you who dose carbon (vodka , vinigar , ..solid pellets...) and also have a refugium ?

If so ,do you see also less pods in/between the macro `s then before you did dose carbon ?

This i experienced first with regular vodka dosing (1/2 year ago) , then after vacation when i stopped dosing carbon the pods came back.
Now with the pellets i see a few pods in my refugium , but not the masses of before.
This is the only down side i experienced , i like seeing them running across the fuge:D

greetingzz tntneon :)

[NaClH2Opgh]

I dose vodka (over a year) I can't grow macro anymore so I pulled it and the mud out of my sump. But it has not affected the pod population in my tank at all. My mandarin is fat and happy.

[tatuvaaj]

I also have a lot of pods after years of DOC dosing :thumbsup:

[1538Moss]

Is this too much water flow ?
(1L BIO-Pellets in a Fauna Marin : Ultra-Zeo-Matic 1)

<object width="445" height="364"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/o0RbU-HikF8&hl=en&fs=1&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/o0RbU-HikF8&hl=en&fs=1&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></embed></object>

[tntneon]

Is this too much water flow ?
(1L BIO-Pellets in a Fauna Marin : Ultra-Zeo-Matic 1)

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seems fine :) , if you ask me
I have the same sort of swirling motion in there.
manualy stirring the bottom pellets , is a good practice as well if it's possible.

greetingzz tntneon :)

[tatuvaaj]

Is this too much water flow ?
(1L BIO-Pellets in a Fauna Marin : Ultra-Zeo-Matic 1)
Seems like a great setup!

How much water flow you have through the media?

[tntneon]

Seems like a great setup!

How much water flow you have through the media?
And how much is the volume of the reaktor ?
That plays an important role whether the pellets are fluidies or not.

greetingzz tntneon :)

[ksed]

Is the effluent best located near a skimmer, so that the bacteria gets taken up as soon as possible or is it best located near the intake of your return pump so that the bacteria can feed the corals?


Thanks
Kevin

[1538Moss]

Volume = 4L
Flow = Aquabee 2000 full throttle, estimate 300L/h
And manually stirring is not a problem since this is a zeolith reactor.

/Pål

[tntneon]

hi reefers :),
I found more info about the pellets on this site

http://www.dvh-import.com/Site2/english/NP-reducing-BioPellets/View-all-products.html

@1538Moss :
-Seems more or less like my turnover rate.
I have a rx volume of 1 l and a flow of 1500 l/h in it , i can`t imagine that it could create anaerobic conditions in there.

greetingzz tntneon :)

[Frogmanx82]

Now that they are not selling direct, I'm not sure I see how to order the pellets from dvh import.

[eliashickman]

Now that they are not selling direct, I'm not sure I see how to order the pellets from dvh import.

I just got finished talking with the owner of D. van Houten. Mr. Houten himself. A really great guy by the way.

http://www.dvh-import.com/Site2/english/Contact.html

Anyway, he told me that for my tank, which is a 60cm cube roughly 300 liters, that I would only need 1/2 a liter of the pellets.
He states that, at least to South Korea where I'm located, the price for shipping is as follows:
1 litre of biopellets (they ship in 1 liter bags) is 60 euros.
and
2 kilos shipping and handling is 25 euros.
He said 2 litres of biopellets (2 bags) will be under 2 kilos. So if I (in Seoul) wanted 2 litres, it would be 60+60+25=145 euros total. So I'm sure that to the States it's about the same.

He also stated that it could be put in a Two Little Fishies Phosban Reactor as long as it was moving around and had the mesh insert at the bottom (to collect particulate). :)

I'm looking forward to more information only because the website is slightly vague about specifications. I can't wait to order though.

Okay so for ordering, you can just send him money through info@dvh-import.com he said.


Side note: He talked a bunch about his friend's tank and said that the guy is feeding 12 times a day!!!! That he has gorgonians and some other exotic filter feeding species in there. AND he said that his friend doesn't have a problem with NO3 or PO4. The food that he feeds is some type of "encapsulated food with neutral buoyancy".

@Frogmanx82. I asked about his friend's skimmate too.
His friend has to clean the skimmer cup every three days because it's "black like coffee. But not French" coffee. Hahaha

[Frogmanx82]

So these would not work for a fresh water tank because no skimmer right?

[tatuvaaj]

So these would not work for a fresh water tank because no skimmer right?
I think FW people use mechanical/biological filters that would export the bacterial biomass when they are cleaned? It's been 20 years since I've had FW aquarium so my knowledge might be a, hmm, a bit outdated :D

[tntneon]

So these would not work for a fresh water tank because no skimmer right?
-I just re-read the orginal thread , on the local forum , because your question was there asked too.

Jptenklooster replyed there that it`s also for freshwater tanks:fish1:.

But if you use CO2 injection on fw tank you nomaly won`t have any NO3
or PO4 issues.
In my case i`ve got add nitrate and phosphate to my FW tank and harvest waterplants every 2 weeks ,otherwise i`ve got an tropical rainforrest instead of FW amzone tank:D

greetingzz tntneon :)

[tntneon]

It seems like the pellets provide alot of food for the corals.
My no3 is at zero now for 1.5 week (po4 was already zero) , and i had to clean my glass every 2 a 3 days.
Three days ago a dosed my trace elements and my fluor/iodide supplement at the same day.
I dosed the recommended dose , not the safe margin i always dosed (1/2 recommended)
The following day i had to clean my glass 2 times:eek1: ,even as NO3 and
PO4 where zero.
Now i`m back to the normal glass cleaning regime (once 2 a 3 days)

I think that i had some sort nutrient overload , w/o any measurable no3 or po4.
Another lesson leaned , not to dose to much trace elements at once or else
the algea would be more in the advantage again to up take nutrients before they enter watercoloum.

GHa is almost away now , it is a slow process:sleep: it`s now 1 month that the GHA volume is decreasing .
I think it will take an other month to be completly away.

greetingzz tntneon :)

[tntneon]

Is the effluent best located near a skimmer, so that the bacteria gets taken up as soon as possible or is it best located near the intake of your return pump so that the bacteria can feed the corals?


Thanks
Kevin

A little late maybe but beter late then never :).
I asked this on Jp `s original topic on local forum , and someboby of coralsience replyed to me that there`s enough bacteria and food with this methode that bypassing skimmer (with pellet reactor outlet) could result in Ph drops at night as ever greather growing bacterial mass are up taking o2 and expelling co2.
And there for the pellets are best use with water direktly comming from display and that oulet comes in the skimmer area .

greetingzz tntneon :)

[Frogmanx82]

Hmm.... I have an intank tunze nano skimmer. Could I load the pellets into the base of the skimmer?

[kaskiles]

Wouldn't it be neat if the biopellets were light enough to fluidize within a non-recirculating skimmer chamber, yet heavy enough to not be skimmed out into the collection cup? Might work best in an air powered skimmer... Oh, I guess they would blow out the outlet anyway.

[chaderic26]

They were talking about these pellets at the CRASE in Oklahoma last week. It was cool to hear about something I was already following.

In the loop I am.

[buddah001]

So how do we get these?

[Frogmanx82]

Will pods or bristleworms eat the biopellets?

[Frogmanx82]

I just got finished talking with the owner of D. van Houten. Mr. Houten himself. A really great guy by the way.

http://www.dvh-import.com/Site2/english/Contact.html

Okay so for ordering, you can just send him money through info@dvh-import.com he said.


So I ordered a liter by going to the site and using paypal to send payment to the email address after exchanging a few emails.

Question, will pods or bristleworms eat the biopellets?

[tatuvaaj]

Question, will pods or bristleworms eat the biopellets?
I don't think so. If you somehow manage to introduce them into the tank some deposit feeders like sea cucumbers would love to eat the bacteria growing on the pellets but my guess is that the pellets themselves would come out of the animal unharmed :D

[tatuvaaj]

Seems like the placement of the pellets inside the sump is important: yesterday I moved them in front of the skimmer (as recommended by the manufacturer) and noticed 0.2 higher pH (7.8 -> 8.0) in the morning.

Initially I wasn't concerned about this because of the very high water exchange rate between the tank and the sump but it really seems to matter!

[buddah001]

[QUOTE=Frogmanx82;15941014]So I ordered a liter by going to the site and using paypal to send payment to the email address after exchanging a few emails.

How much was liter delivered?

[Frogmanx82]

[QUOTE=Frogmanx82;15941014]So I ordered a liter by going to the site and using paypal to send payment to the email address after exchanging a few emails.

How much was liter delivered?

$125

[chaderic26]

[QUOTE=buddah001;15941768]

$125

Did you get a kiss first?

[Frogmanx82]

They better be some darn good pellets or I got something other than a kiss.

[AquariumSpecialty]

Please vist our Sponsor forum for more info on NP Biopellets.

Thank you,

[Frogmanx82]

Well I ordered from dvh but Aquarium Specialty now has them.
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=103_777

At 99 a liter plus shipping, I maybe could have saved a couple bucks, not much.

We really need to get some data on the performance of these pellets, where they can be used, and should the bacteria be filtered out or does it depend on whether you have filter feeders in the tank.

[eliashickman]

So how do we get these?

Check my post a few up. I went ahead and sent money, via PayPal, to the info@dvh-import.com.
I used Skype to call him to find out about shipping and handling. I don't know what that is for the States but I'm sure some of these other guys could tell you. I'm sure it's either 25 euros or some standard flat rate.

BTW, I just ordered mine. I can't wait till the come. :bounce1:

[tatuvaaj]

Very nice that we have more people trying this product out, be sure to report your findings here :thumbsup:

Some reported observations:
- Improved water clarity (CDOM reduction?)
- Lower nitrate (as expected)
- No effect on phosphates (doesn't make sense... do the pellets contain phosphorous? Bacteria promoted by this media has unusually high N:P ratio? Or is it simply because of low N:P ratio in water column?)
- Very high bacterial biomass production (expected)
- Lower tank pH (expected, depends on nutrient levels)
- Works best in fluidizing reactor (?)

[tatuvaaj]

Double

[Frogmanx82]

Very nice that we have more people trying this product out, be sure to report your findings here :thumbsup:

Some reported observations:
- Improved water clarity (CDOM reduction?)
- Lower nitrate (as expected)
- No effect on phosphates (doesn't make sense... do the pellets contain phosphorous? Bacteria promoted by this media has unusually high N:P ratio? Or is it simply because of low N:P ratio in water column?)
- Very high bacterial biomass production (expected)
- Lower tank pH (expected, depends on nutrient levels)
- Works best in fluidizing reactor (?)

I was really hoping for a phosphate reduction. Are we sure about the effects or non effects on phosphate. How good is the data?

[NaClH2Opgh]

I am curious. When this was first pitched, they did so as an alternative to carbon dosing. Carbon dosing does indeed reduce phosphates along with Nitrates. In my experience with dosing vodka the phosphates just take longer to start coming down. I had zero Nitrates for a couple months but still had phosphate issues. The phosphates did eventually come down though. If this has no effect on phosphates then this is a very expensive Nitrate only remover.

[tatuvaaj]

I was really hoping for a phosphate reduction. Are we sure about the effects or non effects on phosphate. How good is the data?
Nonexistent, almost :) I just posted what the handful of people here and some other forums have reported.

The pellets are certainly working (producing large amount of biomass) so there must be reduction in phosphate together with nitrogen. Why me and some others don't see it in measurements is the question. I wouldn't rule out operator error ;)

I had an interesting case after washing the pellets completely and letting the bacteria back into the tank: in 24 hrs the PO4 dropped from 0.1 to "zero". Unfortunately the concentration went back to 0.1 - 0.2 in a few days.

[tmz]

Might be useful to post N and P ratios along with observations.

[NaClH2Opgh]

Nonexistent, almost :) I just posted what the handful of people here and some other forums have reported.

The pellets are certainly working (producing large amount of biomass) so there must be reduction in phosphate together with nitrogen. Why me and some others don't see it in measurements is the question. I wouldn't rule out operator error ;)

I had an interesting case after washing the pellets completely and letting the bacteria back into the tank: in 24 hrs the PO4 dropped from 0.1 to "zero". Unfortunately the concentration went back to 0.1 - 0.2 in a few days.

What are you using to test for phosphates? I hope not a regular test kit.

[tatuvaaj]

What are you using to test for phosphates? I hope not a regular test kit.
I'm not sure what you mean by "regular test kit"? Testing for reactive phosphate in seawater is pretty standard method and all kits I've used have been basically the same.

Anyway, I currently use Salifert, Merck and Gilbers kits.

[Frogmanx82]

Phosphates can leach out of rocks so an immediate reduction may not be seen. I travel and so consistent vodka dosing doesn't work for me so the biopellets are my option to setting up an automatic dosing which may end up being cheaper than the biopellet option.

There needs to be a better presentation of what we can really expect out of these. Is it exactly like carbon dosing? Probably not, but a better understanding of whats going on would be nice. I've got the pellets coming. I'll let you know how the phosphates react. My nitrates are pretty low at less than 5 but not 0.

[NaClH2Opgh]

I'm not sure what you mean by "regular test kit"? Testing for reactive phosphate in seawater is pretty standard method and all kits I've used have been basically the same.

Anyway, I currently use Salifert, Merck and Gilbers kits.

I tried all the test kits and never seemed to get an accurate reading. They always read zero. When I got a Hannah meter, I got a more accurate reading.

[Frogmanx82]

I may get a hannah meter. The phosphate tests are not accurate at low levels. After looking at what I've spent this month, I may need to defer.

Maybe I'll ask for one for Christmas.

[tatuvaaj]

Phosphates can leach out of rocks so an immediate reduction may not be seen.
Frogmanx82,

That is very good point and is likely the explanation in my case :thumbsup:

[ksed]

For anybody with questions regarding phosphates.
When heavy feeding is required, it is recommended to combine the pellets with standard phosphate adsorbents. The reason for this is that most aquarium feeds contain higher levels of phosphate than is consumed by bacteria, fish and invertebrates, when compared to nitrogen.So it does remove phoshates,but if you put more phosphates in than nitrates then you are out of balance.


Kevin

[recife111]

These Np pellets could be Polyhydroxybutyrate?? used in wastewater

[Jk5]

These Np pellets could be Polyhydroxybutyrate?? used in wastewater



Yes. I think so.
http://www.google.es/search?hl=es&source=hp&q=Polyhydroxybutyrate+pellets&meta=&cts=1257247715093&aq=f&oq=


I remember some old denitrators you can work with biopellets or with vodka...

[tntneon]

Yes. I think so.
http://www.google.es/search?hl=es&source=hp&q=Polyhydroxybutyrate+pellets&meta=&cts=1257247715093&aq=f&oq=


I remember some old denitrators you can work with biopellets or with vodka...
Cool info :cool:.
I asked Jptenklooster about the composition , but he told me that it`s his secret (cook`s secret):fun2:.

-I`m happy about the pellets as my test kits show me every time zero as result :).
Still i have to clean the glass of display every two days:rolleyes:
Gha is almost gone , but cyano will be there somewhat longer , after GHA is gone i think.
Water clarity is very good , corals are doing fine and zoas especialy ,they grow almost faster then my macro`s do in my fuge:eek1:.

will try to take some proper pic`s of them in the near future , now bussy re-decorating living room:).

greetingzz tntneon :)

[troynel]

http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=5743&osCsid=c836fdd664dda3b001140c10a70fcf8e

[jptenklooster]

This is correct. In case of tatu, he is using reefpearls for feeding his filterfeeders and unfortunately, the current form of reefpearls has to much phosphate, which is fully out of ratio with the nitrates in it. We are currently trying to develope new reefpearls with 100x lower phosphate levels and initial tests are looking good.

The pellets will use phosphates, but, as stated by Kevin (see below), in most foods there is to much phosphate present and phosphatekillers should be combined with the pellets. However, it will take longer before you have to replace or regenerate your killer (regeneration can be done with 1M NaOH solution, good tip to save some money:D).

I would also like to advise for the heavy feeders to use more pellets than indicated on the label. You can't overdose the pellets and when you are using to much, it will just take longer before you have to add new ones.

In my 350 liter tank I'm using 2 liter of pellets while feeding 12 times a day. The difficulty with saying how much to use lies within the fact that every tank is different and using these kind of filters is not a linear thing (2L for 500 liter does not mean you have to use 4 liters for 1000L tanks).

I'll try to keep answering questions on this forum about the pellets ones a week when possible and we are currently being contacted by many different shops that will start selling the pellets globally very soon.

Kind regards,

Jean Paul

For anybody with questions regarding phosphates.
When heavy feeding is required, it is recommended to combine the pellets with standard phosphate adsorbents. The reason for this is that most aquarium feeds contain higher levels of phosphate than is consumed by bacteria, fish and invertebrates, when compared to nitrogen.So it does remove phoshates,but if you put more phosphates in than nitrates then you are out of balance.


Kevin

[jptenklooster]

Yes. I think so.
http://www.google.es/search?hl=es&source=hp&q=Polyhydroxybutyrate+pellets&meta=&cts=1257247715093&aq=f&oq=


I remember some old denitrators you can work with biopellets or with vodka...

No it is not ;)

[Jk5]

Perhaps it is not PHB, but it is like PHB or another biodegradable biopolymer ... :hammer:

[kaskiles]

Are the Biopellets lighter than most granular activated carbon used in this hobby? I'm just trying to compare with GAC because I know how low the flow rate is that will blow it out of my reactor.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

at 99 a liter plus shipping, I maybe could have saved a couple bucks, not much.

We really need to get some data on the performance of these pellets

I agree that at a price that is orders of magnitude more expensive than dosing vinegar or vodka or sugar, one would really want to see clear evidence of a real advantage before recommending it.

[NaClH2Opgh]

at 99 a liter plus shipping, I maybe could have saved a couple bucks, not much.

We really need to get some data on the performance of these pellets

I agree that at a price that is orders of magnitude more expensive than dosing vinegar or vodka or sugar, one would really want to see clear evidence of a real advantage before recommending it.

That's been my thought on this. I was very interested when I first saw this thinking vodka dosing without the daily dosing but at these prices I am better off buying a dosing pump and have it dose my vodka for me daily. JMO

[jptenklooster]

they should be available in shops for 70-90 dollars (no tax, no shipping). In europe for 50 euro's (no tax or shipping).

In my hands it is working much better than ethanol dosing, which has its obvious limitations (growth of bacteria on corals, feeding red bacteria, CO2 production of bacteria everywhere which lowers pH, when placing the exit tube of the pellet filter in front of the skimmer this will be severely reduced etc...), but yes it is a choice...:fish1:

[NaClH2Opgh]

ethanol dosing, which has its obvious limitations (growth of bacteria on corals, feeding red bacteria, CO2 production of bacteria everywhere which lowers pH, when placing the exit tube of the pellet filter in front of the skimmer this will be severely reduced etc...),

Not sure I understand "obvious limitations". I have been dosing vodka for almost 15 months. I get no cyano in my tank at all. I regularly run a Ca reactor and my PH has been in the 7.9 - 8.1 range before I started to dose vodka and is still in that range since I have been dosing vodka. What do you mean by growth of bacteria on corals? Just trying to understand how this is better than regular carbon dosing. It just seems like with continually adding pellets 2 to 3 times per year the price really needs to come down considerably or to provide some benefit that vodka is not for this to be an option. Again, I am not being a "nay sayer" but just trying to weigh the advantages over vodka dosing. :D

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In my hands it is working much better than ethanol dosing, which has its obvious limitations (growth of bacteria on corals, feeding red bacteria, CO2 production of bacteria everywhere which lowers pH, when placing the exit tube of the pellet filter in front of the skimmer this will be severely reduced etc...), but yes it is a choice

I agree that those are good potential benefits, if they hold up to careful scrutiny. :)

Since we do not know what it is, there are also potential drawbacks that we cannot know about. The release of who knows what monomeric or oligomeric organic compounds, the fact that corals and such may not get any direct benefit from the organic matter as they may with acetate, the unknown purity of the material with respect to other ions, the relative amount of aerobic vs anaerobic metabolism of the material by bacteria (which is potentially different than direct dosing), the different species that may grow on it, and the way that that species and growth pattern impacts the ability of the bacteria to act as food sources for higher organisms in the tank.

I'm sure there are other possible concerns, but those are a few that come to mind.

[Plantbrain]

I agree whole heartly, without evidence that has been demonstrated, it's all marketing hee haw. Seems they are telling you what you want to hear for your $$$. Plenty of that in this and many other hobbies.

I see nothing to suggest they are really any more effective as far as enhancing bacterial cycling rates for NO3=> N2 transformation. A little bit of Fe and sugar ought to do fine if the goal of the systems are to be ran very lean.

I think a lot of the success has to do with good consistent habits and stable loading rates provided by the aquarists. So it's a human issue more than marketing a new cure for everyones bad habits.

This really seems more like an issue of carbon(reduced carbon) limitation of the bacteria that NO3=>N2 gas. So it does not matter too much as long as the Carbon and Nitrogen are loaded at a some what stable rate. So whether you use booze, acetic acid or sugar should not matter.
Or $$$ pricy little super balls.

If macro algae are used in the system, eg, refugiums etc, then there's plenty of reduced carbon leached from those autotrophes anyway. Not likely the aquarium is carbon limited nor particularly helpful to add reduced carbon further to enhance N removal.

Additionally, the macros will remove NH3/NO3 directly as biomass in addition to leaching reduced carbon, I'd say perhaps 5-10% of the total fixed DIC is leached if......and this is a big if.........the rates of loading are again somewhat stable and the other demands of the macros are being met(N, P, Fe etc, light and so on). I think that is the big advantage for the bacteria, they are much easier to cultivate and balance their limiting factors than say macro algae, but the trade offs are the bacteria look none too pretty and are not fed to fish, sold etc.

This same issue with Carbon limitation occurs in freshwater wetlands where they use them for water treatment for N removal via NO3=> N2 and P sequestration. NO3=> N2 rates go up as the carbon is added if it's a limiting factor.

Since many run reefs super lean in terms of food, there's not a lot of leftover carbon.........or carbon in general, and skimmers remove any that's left like mad before it's broken into smaller fractions.

Personally, I'd just stick with sugar and be done with it.
Easy, dirt cheap, available, easy to do without changing much.
Seems like they are preying on ignorance and using marketing/trends etc to sell the product. Sugar is not hard to use or buy.

Regards,
Tom

[reefkeeper2]

I think there would be clear advantages to using a product like this if the questions Randy has put forth can be reasonably answered. I attended a lecture at the Brass conference in Boston where Eric Bornman touched on the subject of carbon dosing. The relationships between corals and the bacteria that they harbour are complicated and not fully understood. He spoke of the natural ratios of primary elements in the water and how carbon dosing changes this, and how excess bacterial growth on your sps might not be a good thing. I have been dosing for years, and though happy with the results thought what he said made sense. A product like this would allow you to grow the bacteria you need for a low nutrient environment without changing the population of the microorganisms in the water or on your corals. Sounds like a good advancement to me. I hope the answers to Randys questions come sooner rather than later.

[recife111]

at 99 a liter plus shipping, I maybe could have saved a couple bucks, not much.
I don't think it is that expensive.

[ksed]

jptenklooster

I've heard that Charles Delbeek is testing this product?
I am wondering how that is going and will there be any literature published on the Bio Pellets?

[tatuvaaj]

There are a lot of unknowns with all DOC sources as well. There is number of potential problems with sugar for example but I have never had anything but positive results (minus visible bacteria on surfaces and water).

I do think product like BioPellets (if it proves to be effective) offer important advantages over DOC dosing:

- It takes away the problem of correct dose. Most problems people have seem to be because of overdose (or dosing too little). The consequences from DOC overdose can be nasty...
- No additional DOM load
- Very nice bacterioplankton production (food for filterers)
- Works well for lazy people like me ;)

I think it is a bit premature to blame the manufacturer for false advertising at this point.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It takes away the problem of correct dose.

How does it do that? Seems to me it takes away the ability to jigger doses day by day depending on what the aquarist observes. You are basically stuck with it, unless you add more or remove some, aren't you?

[tatuvaaj]

It takes away the problem of correct dose.

How does it do that? Seems to me it takes away the ability to jigger doses day by day depending on what the aquarist observes. You are basically stuck with it, unless you add more or remove some, aren't you?
Since the bacteria growing on this material are limited by N and P (and never by C) they get from water column, you can't really overdose the pellets but of course you can have too little. Because the bacteria are constantly exported from the system the rate of bacteria growth depends on nutrients available and surface area (number of pellets).

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Since the bacteria growing on this material are limited by N and P (and never by C)

How do you know that? Release of small organic molecules from the polymer solid to become available for the bacteria may be slower than the bacteria want it to be. It presumably requires hydrolysis of some sort of chemical bond(s). It is not like the bacteria are at a restaurant ordering whatever meals they want. . :D

And why would we assume that with (unlimited) C, if that is in fact the case, that the level of N and P that results is a desirable/optimal one?

Because the bacteria are constantly exported from the system the rate of bacteria growth depends on nutrients available and surface area (number of pellets).

Doesn't that make the number of pellets important and akin to "dose" for soluble molecules?

[tatuvaaj]

Randy,

I should have added "... if you believe that the pellets don't release significant amount of [whatever] into the water" ;)

I do believe they don't release DOC, based on my experience: after I started to use BioPellets I reduced my vodka/sugar dosing to half and saw the expected reduction in visible bacteria in the tank itself (most obvious changes being improved water clarity and much higher water flow through the hose from overflow) :lol:

The amount of bacterial biomass able to grow on this material is very impressive in my experience. As you probably know heterotrophic bacteria are able to alter their internal N:P ratio according to environment they grow in but naturally it has limits. This is one thing we have discussed in this thread (the problem of too high P:N ratio because of many aquarium foods).

I should also point out that the biopellets do not prevent you from dosing DOC. Actually, that's exactly what I'm doing right now ;)

[NaClH2Opgh]

The flow through the reactor, the surface area for bacteria to grow (amount of pellets), the amount of N and P in the water for the bacteria to feed on, the amount of bacteria removed via skimmer; these all determine how much bacteria you have in your system and you really only have control over two of them. Flow and surface area. I'll keep watching for results but as of now, I'll get a dosing pump and automate my vodka dosing, for lazy people like me, and get my $9.99 half gallon of vodka every 10 or 11 months. The $99 twice a year doesn't justify it for cheap people like me.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The released organic molecules may not get away from the area of the pellet by being taken up by bacteria that coat it first, but small organic molecules MUST be released and possibly later be taken up by the bacteria before they can be fully metabolized. The metabolic processing is internal to the bacteria, not external. :)

[tatuvaaj]

Randy,

Naturally :D

I was just describing my experiences with this form of filtration. IME the bacteria do seem to trap whatever is dissolved from the pellets (as seen by very fast biomass production and the lack of typical signs of DOC dosing).

Maybe the carbon in the pellets is only available through enzyme activity and thus controlled by the bacteria? In any case, dissolution and resulting leak of DOM doesn't seem to be problem in my case.

[tntneon]

The flow through the reactor, the surface area for bacteria to grow (amount of pellets), the amount of N and P in the water for the bacteria to feed on, the amount of bacteria removed via skimmer; these all determine how much bacteria you have in your system and you really only have control over two of them. Flow and surface area. I'll keep watching for results but as of now, I'll get a dosing pump and automate my vodka dosing, for lazy people like me, and get my $9.99 half gallon of vodka every 10 or 11 months. The $99 twice a year doesn't justify it for cheap people like me.

-I folow your thought :)

But for me it`s a winner those pellets , my corals never felt better then now .
No3 and po4 stay rocksteady zero.
PE colors and growth are very good , as is waterclarity.

I don`t fully understand which proccesse are involved but i know they are doing some thing good.
And i don`t think they are some new fancy /trendy marketing tricks.
Jptenklooster is a reachercher and is working togheter with coral sience , and also i`ve read that Pieter van Suylenkom (totm 2006 see link) is also using these pellets i`m confident that it`s a good product.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/totm/index.php

greetingzz tntneon :)

[Genetics]

I think it has some possible merits. Once the price drops to a reasonable level it may become a good additive to have around. I would be interested to see what happens with this product on a larger scale. Would it have similar issues as that of organic dosing if too much is added? What happens when the pellets become miniaturized? Would they start moving with the current and end up in the display?

[jptenklooster]

The polymer does not dissolve by itself and needs to be released by enzymes produced by the bacteria. When all paperwork is finished (should be tonight) then I can give some more info on the exact polymer. Waistproducts of the polymer are CO2, H2O Ca2+(low) and CO3 (low), so no risk there. The pellets are consumed very slowly, so for most people it will probably take at least 1 year before half of it is gone, but we wanted to be on the save side because we have been able to test it only for 6 months now. In my system after 6 months I think only 25% is reduced by the bacteria (this is with heavy feeding for my gorgonia).

Naturally, if you can handle your tank without any problems by just adding wodka or sugar and don't mind adding it on a daily basis, don't let me stop you (although wodka dosing can be easily combined by using the pellets). I just came up with this idea because I could not dose enough wodka to reduce nitrates without getting a massive bacterial bloom in my tank.

We currently have no information on which bacteria can and will grow on the pellets in your tank, but that bacteria are growing there very efficiently is clear from everybody who has tested it for me thus far.

In addition, it is not only nitrate reduction as a result of denitrification and thus N2 production, it is mainly immobilisation of nutrients by forming a large biomass, although there will be some anaerobic bacteria there as well, similar to the bacteria on your teeth, you will get layers of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. Thus far we did not observe any H2S production, even in tanks without measurable nitrates left.

It is true that Charles delbeek had the pellets for testing as well, however, he emaild me 2 days ago that he did not get around to testing them.

Regards,

Jean Paul

Randy,

Naturally :D

I was just describing my experiences with this form of filtration. IME the bacteria do seem to trap whatever is dissolved from the pellets (as seen by very fast biomass production and the lack of typical signs of DOC dosing).

Maybe the carbon in the pellets is only available through enzyme activity and thus controlled by the bacteria? In any case, dissolution and resulting leak of DOM doesn't seem to be problem in my case.

[timwijgerde]

Seems like they are preying on ignorance and using marketing/trends etc to sell the product. Sugar is not hard to use or buy.

Tom

Tom, I would be careful with uttering such statements. No one is saying you should stop using sugar or a similar form of DOC. Although Randy Holmes-Farley has fairly pointed out that questions remain to be answered regarding the biochemical processes that occur on or around the pellets, many hobbyists have successfully used this product on their aquarium.

Like Tatu said, bacterial growth seems to be rather restricted to the filter itself. Combine this with a skimmer and a significant proportion will be removed. The species of bacteria which grow on the pellets are not exactly known, but this must be more or less a reflection of what is already present in the aquarium. Of course, more research would be welcome (and several microbiologists have offered their help I believe, so hold on to your horses) but as of yet these effects are clear:

- significant reduction of nitrate and phosphate in the aquarium, provided that adequate amounts of pellets are used (about 1: 500 ratio for most tanks)

- very high production of bacteria in the filter

- no visible effects on the water column, i.e. bacterial blooms as can be the case with Wodka or sugar

- no apparent stimulation of cyanobacteria in the aquarium

Tom, calling Jean-Paul ignorant and having a lust for $$$ is simply unfair. The man has a Ph.D. himself and is not just fooling around. Of course more information about the causal effects of the pellets are more than welcome, which will slowly be released when this is available.

Please treat every product with caution, and maybe a little paranoia, but do not dismiss it directly. Or continue dosing sugar, which no one claims doesn't work. This method is simply less time-consuming, and restricts bacterial growth to the filter rather than causing an aquarium-wide bloom.

[ksed]

As Tim mentioned above, and in my opinion one of the great benefits is the lack of bacterial blooms,it seems to be restricted to the reactor or pellets.

The only concern that I may have is the fact that the pellets may be made of plastics which sounds harsh and toxic even though they may not be, but perhaps JP or Tim may shed some light on this.

Thanks

Kevin

[NaClH2Opgh]

As Tim mentioned above, and in my opinion one of the great benefits is the lack of bacterial blooms,it seems to be restricted to the reactor or pellets.

The only concern that I may have is the fact that the pellets may be made of plastics which sounds harsh and toxic even though they may not be, but perhaps JP or Tim may shed some light on this.

Thanks

Kevin

This is exactly my point though. Everyone keeps putting bacterial blooms out there like it will happen without a doubt if you carbon dose with vodka or sugar. This is NOT true. If you follow directions correctly you will not get one. I have never had a bacterial bloom after a year and half of dosing vodka.

[jptenklooster]

The pellets are fully biodegradable and the only products produced are CO2 and H2O together with some Ca2Co3, which is used as a filler (around 5%).

so no dangerous toxins are present in these polymerbeads.

As Tim mentioned above, and in my opinion one of the great benefits is the lack of bacterial blooms,it seems to be restricted to the reactor or pellets.

The only concern that I may have is the fact that the pellets may be made of plastics which sounds harsh and toxic even though they may not be, but perhaps JP or Tim may shed some light on this.

Thanks

Kevin

[jptenklooster]

I agree that to a certain level that this (bugs bloom) does not happen, however, in my own reeftank I try to combine acropora together with gorgonia, featherstars, sponges etc... and under my feeding regime I had to add so much wodka that I observed a lot of free bacteria and eventually the corals got covered by bacteria as well. As soon as I stopped dosing wodka, they dissappeared, but then nitrate levels would rise again. So for me the pellets are working really well and I hope other people will like them too (Despite the higher price then wodka, but then again zeovit is also very expensive and nothing more than alcohol and vinegar given to rocks that contain bacteria).

This is exactly my point though. Everyone keeps putting bacterial blooms out there like it will happen without a doubt if you carbon dose with vodka or sugar. This is NOT true. If you follow directions correctly you will not get one. I have never had a bacterial bloom after a year and half of dosing vodka.

[catastrofe]

The pellets are fully biodegradable and the only products produced are CO2 and H2O together with some Ca2Co3, which is used as a filler (around 5%).

so no dangerous toxins are present in these polymerbeads.

Will the use of enzyme products have a negative impact on the beads?

:D

[kaskiles]

...with some Ca2Co3, which is used as a filler (around 5%)

Ahh, so the Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) filler is what keeps this organic media from floating in water? Or is the polymer density greater than water?

[jptenklooster]

the polymer density is higher that water and the CacO3 is used as a filler.

depends on the enzym product. I did not test any, but what kind of products are you thinking of?

[catastrofe]

the polymer density is higher that water and the CacO3 is used as a filler.

depends on the enzym product. I did not test any, but what kind of products are you thinking of?

Zeovit's Zeozyme and Coral Snow. I'm not sure if Coral Snow is enzyme based but I know that Zeozyme is. . .

:D

[jptenklooster]

I have no idea what zeozyme is exactly, so I can't give you an answer to that one. If it is killing bacteria, then it would have a negative effect. If it consists of enzymes that can degrade proteins then it should only have effect on bacteria in very high dosis (because it will degrade the proteins in its plasma membrane, but corals would be easier victums to that, so I gues that is not a problem). If the zeozyme consist estherases, then it might help to degrade the pellets, but again I have no idea what is exactly present in this zeo product.

[ksed]

The pellets are fully biodegradable and the only products produced are CO2 and H2O together with some Ca2Co3, which is used as a filler (around 5%).

so no dangerous toxins are present in these polymerbeads.

Thanks JP

[Genetics]

The polymer does not dissolve by itself and needs to be released by enzymes produced by the bacteria. When all paperwork is finished (should be tonight) then I can give some more info on the exact polymer. Waistproducts of the polymer are CO2, H2O Ca2+(low) and CO3 (low), so no risk there.

Jean Paul, do you have any guidelines for the best method of flow through a cylinder with these pellets? Would you recommend adding enough flow to suspend the pellets which may increase bacterial sloughing? What are your thoughts on bacterioplankton output from these pellets?

I just came up with this idea because I could not dose enough wodka to reduce nitrates without getting a massive bacterial bloom in my tank.

I looked around for similar media because some had mentioned this and was unsuccessful. Also, I know daily dosing turns many people off and would like an alternative. So hopefully this works out well without gross side effects.

[Plantbrain]

Tom, I would be careful with uttering such statements. No one is saying you should stop using sugar or a similar form of DOC. Although Randy Holmes-Farley has fairly pointed out that questions remain to be answered regarding the biochemical processes that occur on or around the pellets, many hobbyists have successfully used this product on their aquarium.


I never disputed that claim either.
I agreed with Randy.


Tom, calling Jean-Paul ignorant and having a lust for $$$ is simply unfair.


You are going off topic by playing this personal Troll card here. End it now or should we get the mods to baby sit for you?

I have never said that he nor anyone specifically was ignorant nor suggested he was anything, nor "lust" of any sort. These are false claims you assumed and came up with all on your own.


The man has a Ph.D. himself and is not just fooling around. Of course more information about the causal effects of the pellets are more than welcome, which will slowly be released when this is available.


A degree does not imply it is a wise management decision nor did I suggest it was "fooling around". Great, he is doing something that can potentially help, I'm just questioning is it really worth the tradeoff/cost benefit vs sugar.

That is on topic.
See the difference?
Attack the idea, not the person.


This method is simply less time-consuming, and restricts bacterial growth to the filter rather than causing an aquarium-wide bloom.

Is it really less time consuming?
A dosing drip for sugar is easy to add.
Time management issue trade off removed, for a few $.

Aquarium wide blooms are likely due to the loading rates, pulsed too much.
Folks get a little whacky and lard things on at times, just add too much carelessly, we are human and do stuff like that and get over zealous.
That's a human factor I'd argue.

We could also add sugar to things like agar, pellets for a slow rate of diffusion, Sugar infused clay also would provide slow release + provide high surface area for bacterial colonization.

Likely would not last as long as say a polymer and not be as localized, but would be cheaper. Adding sugar to these products above would release more C than this product. Aquarist own errors and pulsing too much and then not waiting for settling seems more likely to me.

Cost is a factor.
Cost benefit is also a factor.

Adding sugar at a steady low rate works well and avoids the tank wide issue, that has been demonstrated. Dosing it steady at a low rate is all that is needed to relieve the C limitation for the bacteria.

I'm certain tank to tank differences occur, and the rates of dosing folks will add will vary(sugar/this product, booze etc). A product that is steady in it's rate diffusion and low, would allow the user to add more/less to suit and monitor their NO3 levels carefully (assuming they know how and can use calibration standards to make a confident management decision). Some might buy that.

I do not argue that and it might lead to other better methods/info along the way. I just want to see how the trade offs are somehow better than say a sugar drip dosing might be.

So far I remain unconvinced.
It's more localized, but is there really this implied real risk to tank wide issues if some C is floating around(and how much C is required for that to occur? You think it is the same for all aquariums? (I don't) Or is that merely a function of poor aquarist usage/loading rates? For the latter, this product might help.

I might agree with that.
Still a drip with sugar should also be able to achieve the same result for most any tank. Start slow and do so progressively, not add tiny amount, then get impatient and add too much etc. I think if you go stepwise and add the sugar slow and progressively, you should not get a tank wide bloom.

This product would make that process potentially easier.





Regards,
Tom

[tatuvaaj]

End it now or should we get the mods to baby sit for you?

Tom,

You have powers to do that? I certainly hope not.

[Plantbrain]

Ahh, so the Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) filler is what keeps this organic media from floating in water? Or is the polymer density greater than water?

Could hard fired porous clays be used?
I ask because clays can be infused with Fe, Cu and Mo and other trace elements that also enhance bacteria cycling rates, particularly with respect to Fe, Cu and Mo for NO3=>**=> N2 reduction and also would be localized. These are required for denitrification to occur. Not just sugar/reduced carbon.
While CaCO3 could be infused with these, seems tougher to make and adding these should enhance bacteria cycling rates, times and efficacy of the desired process particularly in such a lean high alkalinity system where metals are in very short biolavailable supply. Porous clays also have massive surface area for bacteria and high CEC which would extend the life span of the product.


Regards,
Tom

[Plantbrain]

Tom,

You have powers to do that? I certainly hope not.

:lol:
Haha.
If folks stay on topic and do not get personal. Then such "powers" are not required. Heated debates on ideas, concepts etc are fair game.

Regards,
Tom

[cvye]

I'm gonna give it a shot. Cost should be less than the zeovit system and more than manually (or auto-dosing sugar etc.). I like the idea of a localized colony (similar to zeovit) and hope it would improve my cyano issues. We'll see. I've tried zeovit when it first was introduced; it improved coloration of my corals, but didn't do much for algae (Derbesia) issues. I suspect this will be similar. Derbesia are good at surviving at very low nutrient concentrations.

[fernandokng]

Plantbrain, you're right about keeping things fair and learning more about the product at hand. AndI just re-read what you wrote, and I'm not sure how the bolded part doesn't come across as personal. Perhaps, I'm misreading something.



Personally, I'd just stick with sugar and be done with it.
Easy, dirt cheap, available, easy to do without changing much.
Seems like they are preying on ignorance and using marketing/trends etc to sell the product. Sugar is not hard to use or buy.

Regards,
Tom

[recife111]

Adding vodka/sugar is not exactly safe and many hobbyist have issues, also found that some corals do not like the addition of vodka.

This product has a controlled use of a carbon source going into the tank, so only what is required by the bacteria is used,

Have some product coming so will try it on my SPS tank.

[Jk5]

To Timwijgerde and jptenklooster...

Please, give us more reports how the bacterial mass going out of the pellets is feeding the inhabitants of the tank.


I have seen your post in the Netherlands forum there was 1 case of white water.

My assumption is that water flow and the mode of use of this pellets is not fully stablished yet...
And these diferent conditions could have effect on the way of no3 and po4 removal.

I have seen in the Netherland forum, in the beggining jptenklooster tried to work with a flow of 1 liter /hour like a denitrator.

[Jk5]

Link to the Netherlands forum...
It is a very interesant link. 4 pages

automatic translation.
http://translate.google.es/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zeewaterforum.info%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D66771&sl=nl&tl=en&hl=es&ie=UTF-8

[Frogmanx82]

I have a lot of feather dusters, am I better off letting the bacteria into the tank or should I try to skim it out?

[NaClH2Opgh]

This product has a controlled use of a carbon source going into the tank, so only what is required by the bacteria is used,

It's statements like this that drive me nuts. How is this any more controlled than metered dosing of vodka. You cannot control what the bacteria consume and that what they don't consume is skimmed out AND goes back into the display tank. There is no way for you to know except by testing and observation just like vodka dosing. :rolleyes:

please also list the coral that don't like vodka dosing because I have sps, lps, softie, zoa's and clams.

[tatuvaaj]

I have a lot of feather dusters, am I better off letting the bacteria into the tank or should I try to skim it out?
Skimmer isn't going to remove all the bacteria in single pass so you can just keep the skimmer running and your filter feeders will still get a lot of food.

Be sure to report how your filter feeders react to feeding. I find this to be one of the most interesting features of this type of filtration.

[bertoni]

Okay, let's give the arguments about personal attacks a rest. Let it go.

[tatuvaaj]

Unfortunately this seems to be one of discussions that is best to have in private. Frankly, I'm surprised about all the negativity around this new concept. It's not like we have too many of those these days.

But I've been here long enough to know when it's time to stop and move on to less controversial topics.

[kaskiles]

All the attacks on it just seem to validate it more...

How light is this stuff, if you put it in a TLF up-flowing reactor without the top sponge, and run it at 80 gallons per hour (like they recommend for GFO), will you blow this media out or will it just bounce around inside the reactor.

[ksed]

It's statements like this that drive me nuts. How is this any more controlled than metered dosing of vodka. You cannot control what the bacteria consume and that what they don't consume is skimmed out AND goes back into the display tank. There is no way for you to know except by testing and observation just like vodka dosing. :rolleyes:

please also list the coral that don't like vodka dosing because I have sps, lps, softie, zoa's and clams.

I believe what recife111 ment by controlled, is with other forms of carbon dosing it is basically all over your aquarium water as with this system it's localized in your reactor.In my opinion this could be advantageous in some aspects.

[NaClH2Opgh]

I believe what recife111 ment by controlled, is with other forms of carbon dosing it is basically all over your aquarium water as with this system it's localized in your reactor.In my opinion this could be advantageous in some aspects.

I understand that part but it will still make it to the display tank. The skimmer is not going to skim it all out. Unless you have a tank with no flow it will be all over your aquarium also.

[Frogmanx82]

The bacteria might get out in the tank, but the carbon stays put. I think comparisons to carbon dosing are a place to start, but the pellets are too new to know for sure what the differences are. I have some pellets on order, but I'm not sure that for the same money I couldn't have gotten a metering pump and fed vodka.

I travel and can't do manual dosing, I liked the idea of a set it and leave it carbon dosing option and while I could meter it, the thought of yet another cord to plug in isn't all that appealing.

Anyway, the more people try it, the more we'll know. It is certainly way to premature to make any generalized comparison to other carbon dosing method results.

I have two tunze nano skimmers. I am thinking of putting some pellets in the base of one of them and see how the skimmate compares.

[ksed]

I understand that part but it will still make it to the display tank. The skimmer is not going to skim it all out. Unless you have a tank with no flow it will be all over your aquarium also.

Yes! the bacteria will make its way around all over , in fact that may good for your corals (food).But the carbon will not make its way to the aquarium, it will remain localized.Instead with Vodka dosing the carbon source is all over, which, if not dosed carefully it could lead to bacterial blooms in the aquarium.Not to say that it can't be done safely, many people here do so, but the bio pellets will give the added comfort.

Kevin

[tatuvaaj]

I personally don't think this form of filtration is validated yet ;)

It certainly works (helps to grow large amount of biomass) and has many benefits over the DOC dosing but it's effectiveness in a wide range of reef aquariums remains to be determined. I was hoping this thread would help to collect experiences to achieve that goal.

Many people don't need any kind of organic carbon dosing to achieve desired dissolved inorganic nutrient levels. On the other side of spectrum, I probably feed (or would like to feed) more each day than "average" reefer in a whole month. Obviously the amount of DOC needed for aquariums is not going to be problem for hobbyists closer to zero dosing but as I started to approach the 30 ml/day dose (400g of sugar dissolved in 700 ml of 40% ethanol) I really started to think about ways to reduce that dose.

So far I have been able to reduce my previous DOC dosage in half, even with modest amount (1.5 liters) of BioPellets. I'm going to add one more liter of BioPellets but I'm not sure I will ever stop DOC dosing completely (even if I could) because I've seen positive signs from some filter feeders when there is modest amount of labile DOC in the water.

As has been pointed out several times before, aquarists who are feeding heavily will probably still need GFO to overcome the apparent N:P imbalance in many foods. I might try to build PAO reactor next ;)

[jptenklooster]

The polymer does not dissolve by itself and needs to be released by enzymes produced by the bacteria. When all paperwork is finished (should be tonight) then I can give some more info on the exact polymer. Waistproducts of the polymer are CO2, H2O Ca2+(low) and CO3 (low), so no risk there.

Jean Paul, do you have any guidelines for the best method of flow through a cylinder with these pellets? Would you recommend adding enough flow to suspend the pellets which may increase bacterial sloughing? What are your thoughts on bacterioplankton output from these pellets?

The flow through in my cilinder has a flow through of around 500 l/h. I also used more flow (up to 1000) and it did not realy make a difference. I have seen people use a standard zeovit reactor for the pellets and that is working fine as well. The bacterial output is high in my tank, but it does seem to depend on your feeding regime. The more you feed, more nitrogen and phosphate will be present which will stimulate growth of your bacteria.

I just came up with this idea because I could not dose enough wodka to reduce nitrates without getting a massive bacterial bloom in my tank.

I looked around for similar media because some had mentioned this and was unsuccessful. Also, I know daily dosing turns many people off and would like an alternative. So hopefully this works out well without gross side effects.

[jptenklooster]

To Timwijgerde and jptenklooster...

Please, give us more reports how the bacterial mass going out of the pellets is feeding the inhabitants of the tank.


I have seen your post in the Netherlands forum there was 1 case of white water.

The case of white water was reported 1 hour after putting the pelets into the tank. This had nothing to do with bacterial bloom, but was the presence of free polymer between the pellets. Happened before and is readily removed by your skimmer and has absolutely no harmful effects on your animals (personal experience there as well).

My assumption is that water flow and the mode of use of this pellets is not fully stablished yet...
And these diferent conditions could have effect on the way of no3 and po4 removal.

I have seen in the Netherland forum, in the beggining jptenklooster tried to work with a flow of 1 liter /hour like a denitrator.

I have never used a low flow on purpose, but after my holiday I noticed that one of the hoses was blocked and gave very low flow. I would suggest to use a high flow in order to keep the system as aerobic as possible. low flow would work, but only for nitrate reduction by redox (N2 production), however, large flow (aerobic) depends more on immobilisations of nutrients by the formation of biomass, which also includes the absorption of phosphate for the generation of proteins, DNA RNA etc...

[jptenklooster]

All the attacks on it just seem to validate it more...

How light is this stuff, if you put it in a TLF up-flowing reactor without the top sponge, and run it at 80 gallons per hour (like they recommend for GFO), will you blow this media out or will it just bounce around inside the reactor.


This is what I use. I just added the pellets to my old GFO filter and they bounce around very nicely. It does help to have a sponge or rough net on the top to prevent some lighter beads to stay in.

There is actually also somebody that just added the beads to a empty compartment in his biological filter and that seems to be working as well, although I would prefer to use a old GFO filter or perhaps zeovit filter system

[NaClH2Opgh]

I personally don't think this form of filtration is validated yet ;)

It certainly works (helps to grow large amount of biomass) and has many benefits over the DOC dosing but it's effectiveness in a wide range of reef aquariums remains to be determined. I was hoping this thread would help to collect experiences to achieve that goal.

Many people don't need any kind of organic carbon dosing to achieve desired dissolved inorganic nutrient levels. On the other side of spectrum, I probably feed (or would like to feed) more each day than "average" reefer in a whole month. Obviously the amount of DOC needed for aquariums is not going to be problem for hobbyists closer to zero dosing but as I started to approach the 30 ml/day dose (400g of sugar dissolved in 700 ml of 40% ethanol) I really started to think about ways to reduce that dose.

So far I have been able to reduce my previous DOC dosage in half, even with modest amount (1.5 liters) of BioPellets. I'm going to add one more liter of BioPellets but I'm not sure I will ever stop DOC dosing completely (even if I could) because I've seen positive signs from some filter feeders when there is modest amount of labile DOC in the water.

As has been pointed out several times before, aquarists who are feeding heavily will probably still need GFO to overcome the apparent N:P imbalance in many foods. I might try to build PAO reactor next ;)

Your tank must be heavily stocked! I know people that have 300 gallon tanks with fish, and lots of coral and only dose 18-20 ml of vodka only. I would love to see a FTS..:D

Again I am very very interested in this product and will follow along till it becomes feasible for me to use. I am going to be moving from a 75 to a 220 in the next few months and will look for a way to make a built in compartment in my sump to use something like this. I completely understand how you would be concerned with adding that amount of alcohol to your system on a daily basis.

[tatuvaaj]

NaClH2Opgh,

It's not so much about how much coral and fishes I have it's the feeding they require. In the last couple of months I've been adding azooxanthellae animals (soft corals, oysters, tunicates, sponges, crinoids and gorgonians) and keeping them well fed requires a good amount of food.

The problem with these animals IME is that they require a lot of food *and* excellent water quality. I almost lost many of them when my nutrient levels went up(*). I couldn't see any change in corals like Acropora, Stylophora or Porites but the azooxanthellae animals were severely damaged. Fast.

(*) A story I don't want to look back on :furious:

[skibum9884]

is anyone using these with a UV Sterilizer? I thought I read somewhere that the effect would be diminished, and ideally I'd consider running them both in line back to my display.

[catastrofe]

is anyone using these with a UV Sterilizer? I thought I read somewhere that the effect would be diminished, and ideally I'd consider running them both in line back to my display.

UV is typically not used with a bacteria based system as the UV kills the bacteria. Or so I'm told. . .

:D

[skibum9884]

that's disappointing....maybe i'll run UV until i'm very comfortable, and then switch over to running a media chamber with the pellets. I must admit they're very tempting!

[Rickyrooz1]

Are the biopellets worth purchasing or is vodka still the better & cheaper solution?

[catastrofe]

Are the biopellets worth purchasing or is vodka still the better & cheaper solution?

It's not just about the price of the media, it's also about convenience.

:D

[bluereefs]

Quite interesting novelty with great future. There is one issue what I dont get it right with bio pellets. Everyone talking how to use this pellets in established tanks but can not find information how to use them on brand new aquarium. Fresh aquarium, no fishes, corals, not even live rock (I use AquaRoche reef keramik ), what is the procedure for that kind of aquarium? Can I use bio pellets from the start, did I need to dose something, and when I can start to add fishes/corals? Can I ad big quantity of fishes imideatly or I need to rise bio load slow.

BTW jptenklooster I send you the mail 2 days ago but never get reply from you, to e mail adress mentioned in the first or second pages of this thread. I am interested in purchasing and distribution.

[Frogmanx82]

In the long run you are cheaper buying a dose meter and dosing vodka. A dose meter is probably more convenient as well. You don't have to change out anything and can adjust it to whatever you want, whenever you want.

I have some pellets coming, I'm not sure I wouldn't have been better off putting $100 toward a good metering pump.

[tatuvaaj]

Frogmanx82,

It should be pointed out that running costs are not really high (IMO). If you start with one liter and you feed heavily, you'll need to add 25% every 6 months. That means that you'll spend 50 euros every two years... with less nutrient input you'll spend less. Here in Finland that is much cheaper than vodka ;)

Also, one of the key points is that you don't need to adjust the dosing as long as you have enough pellets. In theory that is.

[jptenklooster]

Quite interesting novelty with great future. There is one issue what I dont get it right with bio pellets. Everyone talking how to use this pellets in established tanks but can not find information how to use them on brand new aquarium. Fresh aquarium, no fishes, corals, not even live rock (I use AquaRoche reef keramik ), what is the procedure for that kind of aquarium? Can I use bio pellets from the start, did I need to dose something, and when I can start to add fishes/corals? Can I ad big quantity of fishes imideatly or I need to rise bio load slow.

BTW jptenklooster I send you the mail 2 days ago but never get reply from you, to e mail adress mentioned in the first or second pages of this thread. I am interested in purchasing and distribution.

i did not receive any mail. could you send me a pm?

[NaClH2Opgh]

How much flow(gph) do you have going through the reactor that holds the pellets?

[NaClH2Opgh]

How much flow(gph) do you have going through the reactor that holds the pellets?

[NaClH2Opgh]

How much flow (gph) do you guys have going through the reactor holding the pellets?

[bluereefs]

jptenklooster pm send :wave:

For me prices are not high, of course vodka are not expensives also, if you are not in Finland lol. But what atract me to this system is simplicity, of course with all other great benefits. Was checking this system few months already, from Tatuvaj home page.

Can I please get the answer for my question regarding starting with bio pellets in brand new aquarium. I would like to test him and have 2 new aquariums, I think that will be also interesting for reefer who start new aquarium and would like to use bio pellets from the begining. In next 20 days I will be get new shipment of fishes/corals and would like to know how many of them can I put in new aquarium with bio pellets filtration.
Did I need to dose food in empty aquarium (with bio pellets filtration) to rise bacterial populations and prepare them for new livestock, or I dont need that and bio pellets will procesed fast waste from new fishes after their adition.

[bluereefs]

I will test bio pellets in this aquariums

150-160 gallons/500-600 liters, strong flow (5000 liters/hour), strong skimmer, can put bio pellets in fluid filter or filtersock who receive very high flow fully aerated, is few days old aquarium
http://elegancereef.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2~15.jpg

http://elegancereef.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2~17.jpg

400-500 litter, 100-120 gallons, fed days old also, litlle weaker skimmer Extreme 200 EXT, also strong flow 5000 lit/hours
http://elegancereef.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/3~15.jpg

I think it will be interesting to get information from using bio pellets from the start.

I can also test him in my 6 months old aquarium, due to heavy feeding I have about 2-5 mg nitrata/liter, no fosfates detectable on test kit probably due to strong wet skimming or kalkwaser use, or combination of both.

http://www.elegancereef.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/1~18.jpg

I have very clear water and polyp extension, will see if bio pellets will get even clearer water and PE.

[Mike O'Brien]

I've been following this thread and it's very interesting. In regards to the placement of the pellets near the intake of the skimmer, I have an idea. I'm using a temporary sump on my tank and to help with bubbles, I'm running my return into a container full of rubble that has an outlet at the bottom where my skimmer intake goes. With a few partitions of appropriately sized mesh, I think you could contain the pellets while allowing bacterial mulm to get skimmed out. You would also have lots of oxygenation and water movement to keep everything moving. it also doesn't require an extra pump.

My skimmer produces like crazy with this setup. I have to weigh down the collection cup lid and have to clean the cup daily.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/Mike0101/cid__1108091130.jpg

One day

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/Mike0101/cid__1031091214.jpg

[tatuvaaj]

Mike,

That looks like a very good setup :thumbsup: I might try something similar.

[Mike O'Brien]

Cool. I'm glad that idea can be helpful !

[tntneon]

cool set up Mike.
But i wouldn`t make the mesh to small , because if it clogs a little bit it would decrease performance of skimmer.
never the less awesome perfoming skimmer !
greetingzz tntneon :)

[tntneon]

.....

I can also test him in my 6 months old aquarium, due to heavy feeding I have about 2-5 mg nitrata/liter, no fosfates detectable on test kit probably due to strong wet skimming or kalkwaser use, or combination of both.

http://www.elegancereef.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/1~18.jpg

I have very clear water and polyp extension, will see if bio pellets will get even clearer water and PE.....

Whaaw :eek1: , that six month old one(pellet test tank) is already looking great ,even w/o use of pellets!!
Keep us informed if you have any results!

greetingzz tntneon :)

[Mike O'Brien]

Hi !

Yes, I don't know what size would be best. I guess that would depend on the size of the pellets and the mulm. In my case it's free flow because I'm using rubble live rock. I'd tend to think that it's a great place for bacteria, and even as is may be of benefit to a bacterial system because it might add Nitrate that might be limiting P uptake.


Also there is a lot of water moving in there which might help in keeping it clog free.

I just want to present by basic idea. That was about two minutes of work with a circular saw. You guys can run with it if you want.

[tntneon]

Hi !

Yes, I don't know what size would be best. I guess that would depend on the size of the pellets and the mulm. In my case it's free flow because I'm using rubble live rock. I'd tend to think that it's a great place for bacteria, and even as is may be of benefit to a bacterial system because it might add Nitrate that might be limiting P uptake.


Also there is a lot of water moving in there which might help in keeping it clog free.

I just want to present by basic idea. That was about two minutes of work with a circular saw. You guys can run with it if you want.
-With me the pellets lay in a box where my display drains into and i never see any build up off mulm in there so that won`t be a problem i think , due to fluidizing the pellets continiously release bacterial mass in think ( i never saw them wave to me , and saying hi i`m bacteria who are you:hmm5:)

This after noon i cleaned my skimmer cup too , is one that`s connected to an reservoir because i do wet skim , i skim about 1/4 g a day on a 30 g system.
it`s a diy skimmer so the neck piece is of black pvc ,so i couldn`t see it was holding like 25 grams of thick skimmer clay almost clogging the neck area , even when doing wet skim !!!
powerfull skimming is a must , using this methode i think .

greetingzz tntneon :)

[bluereefs]

Thank you tntneon, get answer from Jean Paul and contacted Dennis for BP shopping, hopefully will be testing soon my aquariums with BP.
Still nobody answer my question how to use BP with brand new aquarium and when is time to add livestock. If BP can proceed waste imideatly that mean that livestock can be added almost imideatly after the BP. Or bacteria from BP can eliminate only nitrate/fosfate and not the amonium, nitrite...?

[cvye]

I think they say that it takes up to 4 weeks before they are fully functional, which sounds like the bacterial colonies are developed enough to handle the waste. Like an ordinary tank cycle.

An advantage I see with them is you can use more than you need, and if you happen to overfeed, there will be more carbon for the bacteria to use. I'm not sure what happens to your tank if you add vodka, sugar or vinegar in excess of what the bacteria can take up.

[catastrofe]

Jean Paul,

What would you think of using a Deltec PF501 fluidized calcium reactor for the pellets? With this setup, the agitation is independent of the flow through the reactor as flow is dictated by the feed pump and agitation is via the built in recirculating pump.

Curious as to your opinion, and what the recommended flow-through rate would be.

Thanks!!

:D

[Frogmanx82]

So do the pellets need agitation. I was thinking of using my canister. I would have to make sure there was room for the pellets to move around in the chamber?

[rkaires]

I bet any zeolite reactor will work well for these. You could agitate them every so often to eliminate channeling.

[cvye]

Jean Paul,

What would you think of using a Deltec PF501 fluidized calcium reactor for the pellets? With this setup, the agitation is independent of the flow through the reactor as flow is dictated by the feed pump and agitation is via the built in recirculating pump.

Curious as to your opinion, and what the recommended flow-through rate would be.

Thanks!!

:D
J-P can answer this, but IMHO, I'd think you would seriously limit the number of aerobic bacteria in that kind of reactor, as the flow-through rate is pretty small. Even if it worked well, it's a pretty expensive option. I'm going with a Rowa reactor...

[catastrofe]

J-P can answer this, but IMHO, I'd think you would seriously limit the number of aerobic bacteria in that kind of reactor, as the flow-through rate is pretty small. Even if it worked well, it's a pretty expensive option. I'm going with a Rowa reactor...

It's not expensive if you have one laying around gathering dust!!! :D

You make a good point about flow-through. . .hopefully JP can provide some recommendations.

:D

[jptenklooster]

I don't know the flow through of this reactor, but I guess it will be to low, because most calciumreactors have a very low flow through and will result in anaerobic conditions. In my experience the higher the better until your pellets go out of the container, which you don't want :-). In my set-up I have a flow of aproximately 500l/h, but there are people using 3000l/h in a very open filternet (don't use nylonsocks, they will clog).

Jean Paul,

What would you think of using a Deltec PF501 fluidized calcium reactor for the pellets? With this setup, the agitation is independent of the flow through the reactor as flow is dictated by the feed pump and agitation is via the built in recirculating pump.

Curious as to your opinion, and what the recommended flow-through rate would be.

Thanks!!

:D

[catastrofe]

Thanks Jean Paul!

:D

[bluereefs]

What about using BP in skimmer body instead of fluid reactor, without cup of course and modified to prevent BP escape (strainer on outlet)? I have few old skimmers laying around. Put the BP inside of skimmer body and they will receive loots of air (quantity of air can be adjusted in case there will be to much air) strong flow/bubbles will made them agitate even more then in fluid reactor.

[Frogmanx82]

Bluereefs, I was considering adding the pellets to my tunze nano doc skimmer instead of my canister. I don't have a sump so the best I can do on my 90 gallon tank is 2 tunze nanos. I think I will add pellets to one of them and then compare the skimmates before adding pellets to the other.

My pellets have been shipped, I hope to get them shortly.

[bluereefs]

I still whaiting to Dennis ship my BP :)
I will try bp in skimmer instead of fluid reactor, just for the test, I dont think anything cant be more aerated then skimmer body, well maybe Mike drain are more aerated lol.

[jptenklooster]

I considered using a skimmer for the pellets as well, but some skimmers are to powerfull and pellets will be blown out (the airbubbles makes them float quicker than just water). In addition, a skimmer is designed to destroy and skim of your bacteria, whereas you need them to settle on your beads. So I don't think it will work. Using a old skimmer without the aerator should work similarly as a zeovit container, so that should work.

ciao,

JP

[recife111]

i have been using a product called reef active by Tropic marin.

I have a feeling that this product is similar to the bio pellets.


By incorporating these long chain marine biopolymers, the new products, REEF ACTIF and PRO-CORAL REEF SNOW greatly increase and maintain the vitality and colour of corals and reef clams while providing other filter feeding animals with an optimal nutrient source. In addition, both products contribute to a significant improvement in the water quality of saltwater aquaria.
http://www.tropic-marin.com/web/english/homepage.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biopolymer

[catastrofe]

i have been using a product called reef active by Tropic marin.

I have a feeling that this product is similar to the bio pellets.


By incorporating these long chain marine biopolymers, the new products, REEF ACTIF and PRO-CORAL REEF SNOW greatly increase and maintain the vitality and colour of corals and reef clams while providing other filter feeding animals with an optimal nutrient source. In addition, both products contribute to a significant improvement in the water quality of saltwater aquaria.
http://www.tropic-marin.com/web/english/homepage.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biopolymer

IMHO, these TM products are similar to Zeovit Coral Snow and Zeozyme, both of which I use. I don't see a similarity between these products and the NP Pellets. The pellets are a long-term carbon source/bacterial growth medium. The TM and Zeo products are single dose products that facilitate skimming of organics, but they aren't a bacterial growth medium.

JMHO. . .

:D