Old Tank Syndrom, is it true?

[pmrossetti]

That old reef tanks get nutient problems and algae plagued. :)

[ludnix]

I think the general consensus now is that old tank syndrome is really "old DSB syndrome".

[pmrossetti]

Hooray ludnix! Thanks, I hate DSBs and can't wait for them to go out of fashion. A terrible thing IMHO. Can't figure why anyone would go that way. :)

[MCCOOL]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15734423#post15734423 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ludnix
I think the general consensus now is that old tank syndrome is really "old DSB syndrome".

Or "old poor husbandry syndrome"

[pmrossetti]

What's good husbandry for a 3-6" sand bed?

[kevantheman35]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15734408#post15734408 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pmrossetti
That old reef tanks get nutient problems and algae plagued. :)
+1

[MCCOOL]

I wasn't specifically refering to the sand bed, I was more refering to the general build up of nutrients in the tank after a long time from a lack of water changes and cleaning. But regarding the sand bed, I agree with you and ludnix, I keep mine in the 1-2" range.

[pmrossetti]

Agreed jm, I think that no matter how much flow and how many critters, the bed gets dirty. I've been at my LFS many times when breaking down old tanks. The DSB is ALWAYS filthy.

[jenglish]

I have seen DSBs that are set up in the 6-8 inch range from 1992. Sand beds that are calcium based of any depth have the potential to bind PO4 to the point of needing replaced. I tend to think old tank syndrome is more a function of lax husbandry than the particular methodology that you use. Even a BB tank that does not have sufficient nutrient export can get PO4 loaded rocks that need cooked.

[Sisterlimonpot]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15734626#post15734626 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jenglish
I tend to think old tank syndrome is more a function of lax husbandry than the particular methodology that you use. +1 once the tank is "old hat" it will become a chore to keep it up and running properly, and that's when the problems come.

[pmrossetti]

IMHO---Keep it shallow, keep it aerobic, keep it clean.....no problems.

[Sisterlimonpot]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15734706#post15734706 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pmrossetti
IMHO---Keep it shallow, keep it aerobic, keep it clean.....no problems. No complaints here, there are better ways to remove N03 these days and the risk of a DSB isn't worth it any more.

[jenglish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15734706#post15734706 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pmrossetti
IMHO keep it clean.....no problems.

;) :D

[jenglish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15734743#post15734743 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sisterlimonpot
No complaints here, there are better ways to remove N03 these days and the risk of a DSB isn't worth it any more.

I consider a well ran DSB to be of equal or lesser risk to coil or sulphur denitrators, ATS, carbon dosing, etc. Depending on how you set it up it can be more work than some of those options to keep it running well long term. But it is sort of like an old carbureted motor, it may not be as efficient as some fuel injected, 4 valves per cylinder, 7 computer ran modern motor.... but I understand how to maintain it :lol:

[pmrossetti]

Don't leave out shallow and aerobic because there's always areas of the bed we can't reach to keep clean.

[jenglish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15734769#post15734769 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pmrossetti
Don't leave out shallow and aerobic because there's always areas of the bed we can't reach to keep clean.

Whethor you can keep a sandbed clean has more to do with how you set it up than the depth. If you can't get to the bottom of a 6 inch sand bed you need a longer hose :D A DSB with rock lifts and with periodic sectional deep cleanings is going to get cleaner than a SSB covered in rocks that can't be cleaned under :) If you want to have only aerobic areas you better crack open those large chunks of LR and get yourself a wetdry filter :cool:

[pmrossetti]

We agree to disagree then. Thanks j. :)

[Sisterlimonpot]

Jeremy, can you disturb the anaerobic areas in the larger rock?

[pmrossetti]

Not talking rock or wet dry's. Talking sand beds I think. Don't divert. Thanks Sis. :)

[jenglish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15734854#post15734854 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sisterlimonpot
Jeremy, can you disturb the anaerobic areas in the larger rock?

Not in any conventional way... I mean maybe if you were really trying to with water pressure or something but I am not sure why you would want to. I don't recommend vaccuming sand to disturb the hypoxic conditions, but to remove any detritus. Generally you count on critters to keep a DSB hypoxic rather than truely anoxic. Some of it depends on depth as well. I would not want to go much deeper than 6-8 inches with most sands.

[jenglish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15734866#post15734866 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pmrossetti
Not talking rock or wet dry's. Talking sand beds I think. Don't divert. Thanks Sis. :)

No but it sounded like you were equating anaerobic bacteria with being dirty, which is not the case.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to use DSB, it is just one of many options. Actually DSB itself can mean at least a half dozen different set-ups and regimens. But I do want to state that Old Tank SYndrome is not a forgone conclusion to those running a DSB :D

[pmrossetti]

Agreed j and much respect to you, There's no downside to anaerobic areas in rock, not so with sand. And wet drys produce nitrates, not so with SSB. We have to weigh the + and - and make our choice. I offer my opinion humbly and respectfully. :)

[jenglish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15734961#post15734961 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pmrossetti
Agreed j and much respect to you, There's no downside to anaerobic areas in rock, not so with sand. And wet drys produce nitrates, not so with SSB. We have to weigh the + and - and make our choice. I offer my opinion humbly and respectfully. :)

Everyone's just got an opinion, even the experts :D You don't have to worry about offending me, we are discussing fish tanks not my mother's virtue. :lol: I wholeheartedly agree every method or piece of equip has +s and -s and everyone is going to have something that is more to their liking. Ok, back on topic:

Clarify for me what the downside of the anaerobic area of a DSB is or at least potentially is. Are you talking about the binding or PO4, the buildup ofsolid organics or the possibility of hydrogen sulfide?

By what means do you think a wet/dry produces nitrates and how is the SSB different?

[Sisterlimonpot]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15734866#post15734866 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pmrossetti
Not talking rock or wet dry's. Talking sand beds I think. Don't divert. Thanks Sis. :) I too thought we were talking about OTS.
DSB's are a part of the hobby and are probably going to be around for some time still.

However I still haven't heard a good enough argument to suggest that bioballs are nitrate factories any more than live rock rubble....are

[pmrossetti]

Hi sis, bioballs --good topic all it's own. Maybe start a thread on it?
By the way God Bless you for your service. :)

Downside of DSB--possibly--nutrient sink, hydrogen sulfide factory.
The reason bio balls were nixed was nitrate production. Amonia to nitrite to nitrate, no nitrate reduction.

[jenglish]

As far as nutrient sink, the biggest issue here is that Calcium based substrate and rock are excellent phosphate sponges, regardless of depth. I think part of the reason DSB have failed is that they were so efficient at absorbing PO4 for so many years and when they finally filled folks did not understand why they suddenly had algae, hence they called it "Old tank Syndrome." You can get the exact same binding in a SSB, but it will fill much faster and people with SSB are mroe likely to be deep cleaning it as some DSB gurus recommend never disturbing them.

Hydrogen sulfide is a product of an enviroment going anoxic rather than merely hypoxic (complete lack of oxygen rather than very low oxygen). It is a risk that is relatively low and can be well mediated by depth limitiation and semi-regular disturbances with deep cleaning.

SSB that is aerobic has the same ability only to process ammonia to nitrate and not down to nitrogen gas, just like a bioball or biowheel. Of course you are not pushing all the water in the tank over your SSB like you are with a wet dry. The same basic bacterial processes are going on. That is of course going under the idea that there is no anaerobic processes in a SSB, which may not be true. I will have to try and remember to look for that RK article where they found denitrification in a SSB.
That being said DSB are not for every tank. time for bed now :D

[Sisterlimonpot]

That’s a good point Jeremy, I remember reading that RK article. But the details seem to elude me.

[ChknWing]

j from what I have read and understand from a wet/dry is that there is not an anaerobic portion in it therefore there is not any reduction from NO2 to N2. Basically the same reason most people don't use bioballs anymore. Now if it is paired with some sort of denitrification such as a coil denitrator or a sulphor denitrator, then that may be a better way. Ultimately I think your success lies in your husbandry and diversity in your methods. Personally I run a DSB, Refugium w/Cheato, and protein skimmer. My tank has been running since 2004, albeit it has been broken down and resetup a few times due to moves with the military. But I have used the same DSB and haven' had any problems.

[IridescentLily]

Is it true that one can tell if a sand bed has built up hydrogen sulfide, by it exhibiting a black color and/or by a rotting egg odor?

[jenglish]

Yes, IL, those are both signs of hydrogen sulfide. Although I feel pretty comfortable with my DSB, I regularly look at the bottom of the tank to see if any of these spots have developed.

[IridescentLily]

Ah, thanks much jenglish! :-)

[Hal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15736915#post15736915 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jenglish
Yes, IL, those are both signs of hydrogen sulfide. Although I feel pretty comfortable with my DSB, I regularly look at the bottom of the tank to see if any of these spots have developed.

And if you see it, what should you do?

[luther1200]

I think that "old tank syndrome" should be changed to "slacking husbandry syndrome". It could occur in any tank DSB,SSB,BB. Anything if you don't maintane it well. If you don't put the nutrients in there you won't have to worry about removing them. So just don't overfeed and clean all detritus out when ever you see it and have decent flow so your skimmer can do its job and you should be fine, IMO.

[jenglish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15741878#post15741878 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Hal
And if you see it, what should you do?

I have never thought that far ahead.:lol: I highly doubt I will ever see it. If I did I would probably remove the fish and rock to another tub, stir and gas off all the nastiness and run my weight in GAC. I would then look at how it got anoxic. I would then be looking at decreasing depth or increasing sand stirring.

[buildinboats]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15743494#post15743494 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by luther1200
I think that "old tank syndrome" should be changed to "slacking husbandry syndrome". It could occur in any tank DSB,SSB,BB. Anything if you don't maintane it well. If you don't put the nutrients in there you won't have to worry about removing them. So just don't overfeed and clean all detritus out when ever you see it and have decent flow so your skimmer can do its job and you should be fine, IMO.

+1 :thumbsup:

[Nanoized]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15734994#post15734994 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sisterlimonpot

However I still haven't heard a good enough argument to suggest that bioballs are nitrate factories any more than live rock rubble....are

The bioballs that I've removed from my AIO after 1.5 years were sparkling clean and my nitrates were always zero.

Just my personal experience/observation.