Who got the rusty/flame hybrid from DD?

[Rare Angels]

I seen it on the sneak peek, just wondering if anyone on here got it. Does anyone have the picture and price?

Dave

[AquaKnight]

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/5528/lg0921091155.jpg



$299


Lasted for about 10 minutes. Seems less Rusty percentile, more flame. The coloration on copps's (go figure;)) seems more striking IMO. And I guess the problem with the tail wasn't that big of deal, the tail's still pretty cloudy. Remarkable fish none the less....

[basser1]

But not for $299, IMO.

[melanotaenia]

looks like nothing more than a less-attractive overpriced Flame to me, hybrid or not. 299? You gotta be kidding me.

[michael_cb_125]

Nice fish, Cool story, but not for me. That fish does not really look that unique to me. I do see the striping and how it is not characteristic of a full flame. But, it is not so different that I could pay 300 for it.

[copps]

Wow! What a fish! Specimens like these rule out the small chance there was that a population of shepardi made it to the Phillipines... this fish is clearly more loriculus, but you could see for sure the ferrugata input... Wow! This is not a fish you'd see in Guam regularly unlike my 50/50 hybrid...

Guys, as I always say, price does not buy beauty and specimens are not priced based on how attractive they are... it's tough to beat the beauty of a full flame... the people interested in these fish like myself are fans not for their pure beauty, but for the story they tell... I won't go into it again, but for those interested you can read this thread (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1702055) ... fish like these are what really excite me... and I do understand that they don't excite everyone... but there was a line of people waiting on these fish that would have paid more...

Copps

[LobsterOfJustice]

I would have called it a flame if no one had told me otherwise.

[melanotaenia]

I agree, this fish is really nothing special except for the .0000001% of people who follow this hybrid story. I would rather have a full HI flame angel, and would never spend the money on this fish.

I can't understand the hype for this hybrid. Sorry.

[copps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15742153#post15742153 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melanotaenia
I agree, this fish is really nothing special except for the .0000001% of people who follow this hybrid story. I would rather have a full HI flame angel, and would never spend the money on this fish.

I can't understand the hype for this hybrid. Sorry.

I agree with you on the true Hawaiian flame angels... two of my 30+ angels are flames from HI... they too tell a story...

... but I find your post a bit demeaning... I've posted for years on this board and am generally a very laid back person... these hybrids have come into the US in the past, but were identified incorrectly... I met with the importer and told them... and I told the story here in the above linked thread... the specimen posted by LA was the first one brought in since mine by this importer... the fish were before referenced incorrectly as shepardi... and these specimens do indeed give credence to the theory that shepardi is a "hybrid species"... not sure why you think this is exaggerated publicity or hoopla (the noun meaning of hype as you mention)... and while I realize my hybrid story is not for everyone, for you to mention "0.0000001%" of people followed it is also demeaning to me... and I am very laid back...

...there are many aspects of this hobby that don't fascinate me like they do other people... but I respect other people's fascination without demeaning it...

Copps

[euod]

+1. Thanks Copps for pointing out the facts.

[HomeSlizzice]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15740966#post15740966 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by michael_cb_125
Nice fish, Cool story, but not for me. That fish does not really look that unique to me. I do see the striping and how it is not characteristic of a full flame. But, it is not so different that I could pay 300 for it.

+1

I agree with you on this one, it is beautiful and has a great story to boot, but as copps says, buy fish that excite you, and Flame Angels excite me way more. Don't get me wrong I'd be happy to own it, and tell all my guests about it, but for a fraction of the price I can have beautiful Flame Angel that IMHO is more beautiful.

[albano]

Thanks copps, for the link back to other thread, great story, am considering harem of flames in my new 450g DT, but prefer the 'more RED, less Orange' type, any ideas on area they would be from?

[copps]

Hey albano, I just responded at length to your PM...

[albano]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15742488#post15742488 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by copps
Hey albano, I just responded at length to your PM... THANK YOU, SIR, at least I now have an idea of what to look for...LOOKING FORWARD to seeing you at MACNA

[Rare Angels]

I think it is a great looking specimen and would have loved to have it.

Like several people have stated; to each their own and don't demean people for what they like.

Dave

[jmaneyapanda]

Once again, another thread to prove why people who have such nice fish, dont want or like to post about it.

I think its a beauty.

[Treg]

Wow. I can completely understand that paying $300 for that fish isnt for everyone.
I'm sure there are people on this board that make $300 a week as I'm sure there are people on this board that make $300 an hour. I get that.

But how can any angelfish fan not have atleast some appreciation for the uniqueness of this flame??

If that were my fish I would pair it with a beautiful true flame angel.
What a conversation piece that pair would be.



Personally, I hope that who ever bought this fish shares the experience with us and I hope that the naysayers can find themselves another thread to troll. ;)

[basser1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15743292#post15743292 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Treg
Wow. I can completely understand that paying $300 for that fish isnt for everyone.
I'm sure there are people on this board that make $300 a week as I'm sure there are people on this board that make $300 an hour. I get that.

But how can any angelfish fan not have atleast some appreciation for the uniqueness of this flame??

If that were my fish I would pair it with a beautiful true flame angel.
What a conversation piece that pair would be.



Personally, I hope that who ever bought this fish shares the experience with us and I hope that the naysayers can find themselves another thread to troll. ;)


So..... Because we state a differing opinion, we are naysayers and trolls??

For the record, I received a sneek preview from LA on this fish. No where in the e-mail did it state the story behind it that copps provided. To us "average Joe six-packers", it was just a very nice looking flame angel!

[Toddrtrex]

I don't know, I have a flame that I think is pretty good looking, but if I would have seen that hybrid I would have been tempted to get it. Sure the story is cool, but I think the one pictured in this thread is a beaut.

Heck, almost glad that I didn't see it, don't have the room for it, and I spend too much money on fish as it is. :)

[Cantonesefish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15742488#post15742488 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by copps
Hey albano, I just responded at length to your PM...

Hey copps, can you check your pm box again... ;)

Also, like others said, there's no reason to try and put down other people's fish :) If you don't have anything nice to say, tell it to the fish face to face, and don't say things behind its back.

[RealReef7]

It looks like a flame angel with thinner bars.. I'd keep a flame angel any day then pay 300 bucks for that...

[Sheol]

Nice, but a bit pricey IMO. Anyway, for you hybrid lovers, go for it..
Actually, I'm finding it kind of interesting that different species can interbreed freely. Is this due to spawning vs internal fertilization ( I don't believe anyone has seen hybrid sharks, could be mistaken though.)???

Matthew

[LisaD]

Hybridization is not uncommon in the development of new species of any sort. I'm an evolutionary biologist, though my training is in plant genetics and evolution. I'm with copps, I love the story, too.

Though, personally the fish that do it for me are ones that many people find ugly or weird - I like rare puffers, odd scorps, other venomous fish, anglers, small boxfish, seahorses, wolf eel blennies...

Some would say these fish were overpriced, but they are worth every penny to me. I can certainly respect the passion the hybrid angel buffs feel for their dream fish.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d19/ldarmo/th0729081-175.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d19/ldarmo/Fish01-17-09004.jpg

[brynkal]

[i]
...there are many aspects of this hobby that don't fascinate me like they do other people... but I respect other people's fascination without demeaning it...

Copps [/B]

+1

Just because many of us don't post in this forum regularly, it doesn't mean we aren't extremely interested in some of the threads, your % is based on your opinion...

[melanotaenia]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15742282#post15742282 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by copps
I agree with you on the true Hawaiian flame angels... two of my 30+ angels are flames from HI... they too tell a story...

... but I find your post a bit demeaning... I've posted for years on this board and am generally a very laid back person... these hybrids have come into the US in the past, but were identified incorrectly... I met with the importer and told them... and I told the story here in the above linked thread... the specimen posted by LA was the first one brought in since mine by this importer... the fish were before referenced incorrectly as shepardi... and these specimens do indeed give credence to the theory that shepardi is a "hybrid species"... not sure why you think this is exaggerated publicity or hoopla (the noun meaning of hype as you mention)... and while I realize my hybrid story is not for everyone, for you to mention "0.0000001%" of people followed it is also demeaning to me... and I am very laid back...

...there are many aspects of this hobby that don't fascinate me like they do other people... but I respect other people's fascination without demeaning it...

Copps

nothing demeaning about my post; I just don't see the wow factor in the fish, for those that do, that's great, but I don't regard this with the same fascination as some of the other hybrids we have seen on these boards. I have followed numerous posts of yours regarding your acquisitions, and respect the fish you do keep, but there are some hybrids, like this one, that just don't bring the same excitement for me, regardless of the story behind it.

I can appreciate a new species as much as the next guy, but this one just is not one of them; it basically looks like a flame with less black striping. But hey, that small percentage of the hobby that follows these fish and get a kick out of it is cool. Just not my cup of tea. And just my two cents. And just my opinion.

This is why I don't post on these boards very much anymore.

[tcmfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15744537#post15744537 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melanotaenia
This is why I don't post on these boards very much anymore.

I don't think "this" is a reason not to post. But a few reasons to post would be to help someone out, to give some information you might know, if you like a fish, if you have experience with a fish, or if you have a question just to name a few. Not to say oh this fish is too expensive, hey that looks like a flame angel, I wouldn't pay that.... blah blah

I don't know why this thread got so much negative response. Usually the threads about the Diver's Den fish that sell quickly are just to get a pic and see who got the fish. And usually those who post on the subject are interested.

Everyone likes different fish and everyone can afford different fish.

I don't know how many flame rusty hybrids you guys have seen but I have only seen pics and none in real life. BUT I have seen more expensive angels and fish. These don't come around that often and I think it should be appreciated for what it is. Whether or not you like angels or think it is over priced or not, I think you should applaud liveaquaria for bringing a fish like this so we can see it even if that is all we plan on doing.

[euod]

Well said. We should applaud Copps for bringing this fish to our attention as well.

[HomeSlizzice]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15743139#post15743139 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
Once again, another thread to prove why people who have such nice fish, dont want or like to post about it.

I think its a beauty.


I don't understand why? Maybe its because of some flack you might get from some hater, but the people (like me) who love to gaze at pictures of these amazing fish get short handed. If I got some super crazy expensive rare fish, or any fish for that matter, I would be posting pics of them. Sure I might get that one person who thinks I'm ridiculous and stupid for spending money on such a fish, but they are some random person over the Internet and I wouldn't let some random person over the Internet affect me. The ones who appreciate the pics will give compliments and thank you for sharing. :)


And back to the fish this thread is about. I think it is an awesome fish and would love to own it (I like the idea of pairing it up with a true flame) and I think the story behind it is also cool. I would love to see more pics of it from the person who bought it, and I also would like to commend LiveAquaria for bring in such a fish. Yes I find a regular Hawaiian, or most other Flame Angels for the matter, more beautiful. BUT that is my HUMBLE opinion. AND YOU should not let anybodys opinion change YOUR mind on what fish YOU like. Like copps says "buy fish that excite you." :)

And to whoever bought this I would LOVE for you to post some picss of your BEAUTIFUL fish. :)

[AquaKnight]

I think a lot of the blame has to go towards me. I had the first reply and posted the pic. My comments should have definitely been more positive/respective towards the fish, and to set the tone of the thread. My brief, sharp comments didn't help anything.

It was just that I had been checking emails since the first time they including it in the sneak peek, then took it off, then relisted it. I obviously had not see the fish itself, nor the price. I was pounding the refresh key for 30mins, I was pretty interested in purchasing. Just once he did pop up, it didn't look like I expected, nor priced what I thought.


I certainly get the "importance" of this fish however. If there's any thought of more fish like this hybrid, there has to be a positive consumer base. So if I don't like this fish, maybe I'll like the next one.

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15745911#post15745911 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HomeSlizzice
I don't understand why? Maybe its because of some flack you might get from some hater, but the people (like me) who love to gaze at pictures of these amazing fish get short handed. If I got some super crazy expensive rare fish, or any fish for that matter, I would be posting pics of them. Sure I might get that one person who thinks I'm ridiculous and stupid for spending money on such a fish, but they are some random person over the Internet and I wouldn't let some random person over the Internet affect me. The ones who appreciate the pics will give compliments and thank you for sharing. :)


And back to the fish this thread is about. I think it is an awesome fish and would love to own it (I like the idea of pairing it up with a true flame) and I think the story behind it is also cool. I would love to see more pics of it from the person who bought it, and I also would like to commend LiveAquaria for bring in such a fish. Yes I find a regular Hawaiian, or most other Flame Angels for the matter, more beautiful. BUT that is my HUMBLE opinion. AND YOU should not let anybodys opinion change YOUR mind on what fish YOU like. Like copps says "buy fish that excite you." :)

And to whoever bought this I would LOVE for you to post some picss of your BEAUTIFUL fish. :)

I personally own a lot of expensive fish, but Im not sure that I will ever post pictures, or a stock list ever again, because of the amount of effort I have to put into "defending" myself. People saying "why didnt you just buy a .... for a fraction the price", or "I wish I had your disposable income" is insulting and demeaning, to say the least. And it certainly isnt constructive. It almost as if these people they have the right to give me an audit of sorts. It serves no positive benefit, and grows tiring, because it is never only one or two people or comments. If you look at nearly every single thread about rare and/or expensive fish in this forum, there is ALWAYS numerous comments exactly along these lines.

I buy fish for me, and choose to share them with people who have a common interest, which I assumed was here on RC. However, if I wanted criticism of *how* to spend my money, I will instead show pictures to my mother. At least she has the right to be critical of it.

[LisaD]

aww, just let the ones that don't get why you'd spend all that money run off you like water off a duck's back. there are enough of us here that are enablers and cheerleaders of spending $$$s on the fish you like to give you props. :) I couldn't give ANYONE outside of you guys an idea of what I spend on fish in a year.

[melanotaenia]

These hybrid species threads are starting to get a little old, I miss the good old threads about a beautiful Emperor, Blue Face, or other Angel. When was the last time stuff like that was posted? Hybridization of fish in the wild is certainly nothing novel.

But again, for those that like the fish for the story behind it, that's cool. And for whoever bought this fish, I hope i brings you years of enjoyment in your reef of fish only aquarium.

[tcmfish]

People post about those fish all the time.

If you don't care we don't want to know.

[copps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15744537#post15744537 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melanotaenia
nothing demeaning about my post; I just don't see the wow factor in the fish, for those that do, that's great, but I don't regard this with the same fascination as some of the other hybrids we have seen on these boards. I have followed numerous posts of yours regarding your acquisitions, and respect the fish you do keep, but there are some hybrids, like this one, that just don't bring the same excitement for me, regardless of the story behind it.

I can appreciate a new species as much as the next guy, but this one just is not one of them; it basically looks like a flame with less black striping. But hey, that small percentage of the hobby that follows these fish and get a kick out of it is cool. Just not my cup of tea. And just my two cents. And just my opinion.

This is why I don't post on these boards very much anymore.

If it's not your cup of tea that's fine... but when you say it is only the cup of tea of one in 100 million people (or whatever 0.0000001% is), that's different... let other hobbyists decide for themselves what they like to read...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15746973#post15746973 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melanotaenia
These hybrid species threads are starting to get a little old

Okay, let us know when we're good to post again without you taking issue...

this is a forum on reef fishes... there are alot of hybrid reef fishes... if you do not like these find another thread or forum...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15746973#post15746973 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melanotaenia
Hybridization of fish in the wild is certainly nothing novel.


These fish have trickled in for years as C. shepardi... they are not... this is the first specimen retailed for what it is... that is the definition of novel...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15746973#post15746973 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melanotaenia
I miss the good old threads about a beautiful Emperor, Blue Face, or other Angel. When was the last time stuff like that was posted?


Here you go... (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1467958) there are actually two emperors... and the last post was three days ago...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15744537#post15744537 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melanotaenia

This is why I don't post on these boards very much anymore.

When you continually post in a thread that you don't have interest, no one should have interest, and other comments you have, don't get upset when people take issue with it... as I said before there are many threads I have no interest in, but I don't continually post in them derailing them...

[LisaD]

well said

[copps]

Back on topic, one of the interesting things is that flame angels are coming out of Cebu in more than onesies and twosies... rusties are of course much more common though... and of course central Pacific locations send out exponentially more, but it's an interesting note... The APB is out with the people bringing these fish in and each fish is being scrutinized... I'm trying to get more info from the collectors, as this is news to everyone including ichthyologists... pretty neat what's going on... :)

[LisaD]

Is anyone doing any confirmatory testing with genetic markers? I don't even know if there are good markers for differentiating angelfish species, but it's not uncommon to use DNA kits to identify food fish species. It's also been done for seahorse taxonomic studies.

[copps]

I'm not aware of any genetic testing on these particular hybrids, but in Centropyge it is well known that color based taxonomy and genetic structure don't always match up... for instance, Centropyge argi (the cherubfish) and Centropyge aurantonota (Brazilian flamebacks), are indistinguishable looking at their mtDNA... basically, color can evolve much faster than DNA can diverge... especially in Centropyge... there is an Atlantic Halichoeres wrasse found in the Caribbean and Bermuda that show vast color differences between populations... yet they've found the Bermudan population to be less than 15,000 years old... so when it comes to color and genetics... read my signature... :) Fascinating stuff! (At least for a small percentage of us!) :D

[LisaD]

I've always been leery of taxonomy where morphological/color traits that can respond quickly to selection are used to distinguish species. Changes in color and pattern can occur through segregation of existing alleles, and can respond quickly to selection or be fixed by genetic drift or founder effect. Without more information, it's hard to say whether speciation has occurred or not - but it also depends on how you define a species...

I also believe mtDNA is also not the best tool for distinguishing closely related species that have diverged fairly recently in evolutionary time. In general, mtDNA is highly conserved and changes very slowly. So while mtDNA differences reflect mutations and can be useful for building phylogenetic trees, I don't think mtDNA is going to be much good for the speciation and hybridization we are discussing here.

I've been out of cutting edge molecular evolution and genetics for a while - my current job doesn't require that I stay current with the technology. But I think there are some decent "intermediate" genetic markers that have more use for distinguishing species OR for assessing population genetic structure.

It's always a matter of finding the "just right" markers to look at populations or putative new species.

One of the problems of discussing speciation is that it is a somewhat artificial category, and different disciplines have different definitions of what a species really is. Even the taxonomists can't agree, having both lumper and splitter schools.

[Toddrtrex]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15747558#post15747558 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by copps
I'm not aware of any genetic testing on these particular hybrids, but in Centropyge it is well known that color based taxonomy and genetic structure don't always match up... for instance, Centropyge argi (the cherubfish) and Centropyge aurantonota (Brazilian flamebacks), are indistinguishable looking at their mtDNA... basically, color can evolve much faster than DNA can diverge... especially in Centropyge... there is an Atlantic Halichoeres wrasse found in the Caribbean and Bermuda that show vast color differences between populations... yet they've found the Bermudan population to be less than 15,000 years old... so when it comes to color and genetics... read my signature... :) Fascinating stuff! (At least for a small percentage of us!) :D

Even though it is getting a bit over my head, I find it fascinating too. Been a long time since I had a Bio class. Is there a big difference b/t mtDNA and plain DNA?

[LisaD]

yes - nuclear DNA and mitochondrial DNA are very different in how they are transmitted and in the mutation rate.

for anyone interested speciation and evolutionary biology, there are some good books out there that show lots of examples.

A great read on mtDNA technology applied to fossils and to human evolution:
The Seven Daughters of Eve by Brian Sykes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Daughters_of_Eve

For learning about evolutionary biology and the history of science, anything by Stephen Jay Gould.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Jay_Gould

The theory behind the use of some genetic markers for looking at sequence and time of speciation is called the "molecular clock". If you are feeling geeky, and want to take a look, here is a good intro. When the molecular clock is calibrated to mtDNA, it runs very slow...
http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/The-Molecular-Clock-and-Estimating-Species-Divergence-41971

For anyone interested, I could come up with a more extensive list.

[jmaneyapanda]

If my evolutionary biology from college is still valid (in my noggin), mtDNA come from the mothers side only.

[LisaD]

yes, it is only transmitted through the cytoplasm. in most (but not all) species, male gametes such as sperm or pollen, do not carry cytoplasm. I believe mitochondrial DNA rarely if ever recombines, unlike nuclear DNA, so it is highly conserved.

both male and female individuals carry mitochondrial DNA, but it can only be passed on by the mother.

for studying evolution through the male line, the Y chromosome (where there is an X Y sex differentiation system) can be used. the Y chromosome does not undergo recombination either.

[HomeSlizzice]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15746554#post15746554 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
I personally own a lot of expensive fish, but Im not sure that I will ever post pictures, or a stock list ever again, because of the amount of effort I have to put into "defending" myself. People saying "why didnt you just buy a .... for a fraction the price", or "I wish I had your disposable income" is insulting and demeaning, to say the least. And it certainly isnt constructive. It almost as if these people they have the right to give me an audit of sorts. It serves no positive benefit, and grows tiring, because it is never only one or two people or comments. If you look at nearly every single thread about rare and/or expensive fish in this forum, there is ALWAYS numerous comments exactly along these lines.


Thats true, and I understand the frustration. But what I do is what LisaD said, "just let those comments roll off your back like water on a duck" or what ever LisaD said. And it has worked so far. :)

What about putting the pics of your fish in your gallery?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15746554#post15746554 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
I buy fish for me, and choose to share them with people who have a common interest, which I assumed was here on RC. However, if I wanted criticism of *how* to spend my money, I will instead show pictures to my mother. At least she has the right to be critical of it.

That is also true, I have seen many threads were that happens. It is sad when some guy posts pics of his beautiful new fish or is dream fish that he just got, and then some people give him crap because it looks similar to this certain fish which is half the cost, or whatever. It is weird, you would think that people on this forum would be more than happy to see the pics of everybody's fish and give complements, but sadly thats not how it always is. Even though it should be. :)


But I respect your discision to do what ever you want, and like always Beautiful fish. :)

David

[LisaD]

It is sad when some guy posts pics of his beautiful new fish or is dream fish that he just got, and then some people give him crap because it looks similar to this certain fish which is half the cost, or whatever.

Yikes! :eek2: I think I see myself in that comment. For example, when people have posted on their new conspic angel, I recall posting that I like the blue spotted angle and gray poma about as much. But I swear, I'm not knocking their fish - conspics are awesome. I'm always happy for folks that find the fish they are passionate about, and I hope my posts are perceived as positive and respectful!

Regarding the conspic example (it was probably your thread jmaneypanda) I was trying to add that there are some relatively uncommon, underappreciated, but not so expensive fish in the same genus that I find very attractive. That maybe some people that can't afford or get access to that special fish could have in their systems... For the times I've made that kind of comment in a thread, please don't take it the wrong way, it's not meant at all as a criticism of your fish or your judgment.

And thanks to everyone that didn't crucify me for buying the DD golden dalmation dogface puffer. I could have gotten just about any other color morph of dogface puffer a fraction of the price. :) Any of my family or friends outside of RC would never have let that purchase go without a lot of negative comment. It's a good thing my husband and I keep our discretionary money in separate accounts!

[copps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15747952#post15747952 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LisaD
I've always been leery of taxonomy where morphological/color traits that can respond quickly to selection are used to distinguish species. Changes in color and pattern can occur through segregation of existing alleles, and can respond quickly to selection or be fixed by genetic drift or founder effect. Without more information, it's hard to say whether speciation has occurred or not - but it also depends on how you define a species...

I also believe mtDNA is also not the best tool for distinguishing closely related species that have diverged fairly recently in evolutionary time. In general, mtDNA is highly conserved and changes very slowly. So while mtDNA differences reflect mutations and can be useful for building phylogenetic trees, I don't think mtDNA is going to be much good for the speciation and hybridization we are discussing here.

I've been out of cutting edge molecular evolution and genetics for a while - my current job doesn't require that I stay current with the technology. But I think there are some decent "intermediate" genetic markers that have more use for distinguishing species OR for assessing population genetic structure.

It's always a matter of finding the "just right" markers to look at populations or putative new species.

One of the problems of discussing speciation is that it is a somewhat artificial category, and different disciplines have different definitions of what a species really is. Even the taxonomists can't agree, having both lumper and splitter schools.

For me Lisa, the taxonomy aspect in terms of defining a species is not the interesting part... to me that's simply humans trying to define shades of gray as black or white... the fascinating part for me is WHY these divergences happen... be it founder effect, speciation, genetic drift, natural selection, sexual selection, etc... you can argue over whether or not something is a different species... but you cannot argue that there are differences caused by something...

In regards to the mtDNA, that seems to be obvious for anyone who knows reef fish... so many of these "species" have diverged in an evolutionary blip in time...

[LisaD]

I'm with you. I don't care about taxonomy except where it is useful in describing relationships among different organisms - some folks can get a little rigid about it.

I am very interested in the mechanisms of speciation and how variation in populations is acted upon by selection.

When I used to teach undergrad and grad courses on genetics, biology, ecology, somehow, I always ended up with an evolutionary biology emphasis. And the stories were the best part.

Have you read SJ Gould's essays or his book "The Mismeasure of Man"? He was such a great scientist and writer.

[copps]

Evolution explains everything... plain and simple! :) You almost cannot speak any science for long without falling into it!

Ironically, my own interest in evolution had a direct result on my procreation, having met my wife in Ecuador and the Galapagos Islands while studying... :D While I studied biology and computers, biology remains my passion while computers pays the bills...

While my wife often gets frustrated with my fish fascination, I should remind her that without that fascination I never would have gone to Ecuador... met her... and thus had our two kids! :D Call it an example of the butterfly effect taken from chaos theory!

My pleasure readings nowadays consist of aquatic journals (and other related things) and Thomas the Train (and other related things)... but I want to add more things pertinent to this topic... shoot me a PM with recommendations please Lisa! I think I'll start with rereading "The Origin of Species"... :)

[jrobison]

The funny thing about this fish is that it "has trickled in for years as C. Shepardi" but now that there is a hype and someone actually knows what it is, the price jumps. I'm not knocking the fish, but everyone is giving kudos to LA, and even they probably wouldn't know what it was if it hadn't been for Copps, but now that they do they call it a $300 fish. Copps should get royalties for these fish.

[chort55]

Beautiful fish. Out of my personal budget right now but someday I would love to purchase one... + lol :D

[AuroraDrvr]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15750057#post15750057 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jrobison
The funny thing about this fish is that it "has trickled in for years as C. Shepardi" but now that there is a hype and someone actually knows what it is, the price jumps. I'm not knocking the fish, but everyone is giving kudos to LA, and even they probably wouldn't know what it was if it hadn't been for Copps, but now that they do they call it a $300 fish. Copps should get royalties for these fish.
Kevin is just as big a fish nut as they come. ;)

[jrobison]

I'm sure he is a fish nut, I order from them a lot, and I am not putting them down at all. A good company should take advantage of an opportunity, it's just that until Copps told everyone what they were, they were cheap, now they are worth $300? They don't cost anymore to catch or ship than a few months ago. It's just funny how quickly people react to try and have something "rare", but the only thing rare about it is that this one was labeled correctly.

[copps]

These were never a cheap fish... the price for this specimen was very fair in my opinion... Kevin is a good friend and great guy... we speak regularly... and we'll be having a beer together in less than 24 hours! :beer: And I'll be telling a pretty wicked story in my talk at MACNA about Kevin when he was over my house... :)

[LisaD]

Evolution explains everything... plain and simple! You almost cannot speak any science for long without falling into it!

EXACTLY! :)

I'll send you a PM with reading ideas if you want to get back into it (but clear your inbox!) I miss research and teaching.

Give my best to Kevin. I really wanted to get to MACNA this year!

[HomeSlizzice]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15750708#post15750708 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by copps
These were never a cheap fish... the price for this specimen was very fair in my opinion... Kevin is a good friend and great guy... we speak regularly... and we'll be having a beer together in less than 24 hours! :beer: And I'll be telling a pretty wicked story in my talk at MACNA about Kevin when he was over my house... :)


Thats awesome, I wish I was older than 16 so I could fly around and meet all of these awesome people, including you john.

[fishkid6692]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15751865#post15751865 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HomeSlizzice
Thats awesome, I wish I was older than 16 so I could fly around and meet all of these awesome people, including you john.

this is the main reason i'm so excited for macna! i can't wait to meet everyone!

[Outerbank]

Hybrids are really awesome. I have a very dark color pattern to my potter's angel. I really didn't appreciate the uniqueness of my fish and hybrids until recently.

That being said, I love all stunning, healthy specimens, be them common, rare, colorful, dull, big, small, hybrids, etc.

Congrats to the new owner.

[HomeSlizzice]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15751884#post15751884 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishkid6692
this is the main reason i'm so excited for macna! i can't wait to meet everyone!


I wish I could go to macna, but I will be going to Reef-A-Palooza.

[LisaD]

wish I could go, but I can't do it this year... I was a regular at IMAC, and had been to the MACNA several years ago in Clarksville, IN. maybe next year!

[Rare Angels]

I won't be able to go to MACNA either, I was really hoping to since there are a ton of great speakers. Was really hoping to hear John,s presentation also. :(

Dave

[cas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15747418#post15747418 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by copps
Back on topic, one of the interesting things is that flame angels are coming out of Cebu in more than onesies and twosies... rusties are of course much more common though... and of course central Pacific locations send out exponentially more, but it's an interesting note... The APB is out with the people bringing these fish in and each fish is being scrutinized... I'm trying to get more info from the collectors, as this is news to everyone including ichthyologists... pretty neat what's going on... :)

Copps, what is the APB?

Thank you.

[LisaD]

I'm not copps, but APB = "all points bulletin"? ;)

[cas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15754573#post15754573 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LisaD
I'm not copps, but APB = "all points bulletin"? ;)

Thanks. The way I read it I thought it was an University or governmental agency.

[Korrine]

OK so did we ever hear if anyone on here bought the fish?

I got tired of reading argument after argument and scrolled through. Never saw any picture.

[seahorsedreams]

This is exactly why I was ticked at my husband for posting that we got Orange spotted filefish in this forum. I actually hung up on him I was so ticked. LOL.

No, no answer from the new owner.

[euod]

It's been almost a year and this guy grew out nice and plump
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff327/euod/Hybrid%20Lori/IMG_0195-1.jpg

I also got him a buddy that is only 1 3/8" and will take some time to fill him out before they can greet each other.
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff327/euod/Hybrid%20Lori/IMG_0322.jpg
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff327/euod/Hybrid%20Lori/IMG_0320.jpg

[Beaun]

Looking good, thanks for the update. The middle "mis-bar" is an interesting abnormality.

[rekn]

Looking good, thanks for the update. The middle "mis-bar" is an interesting abnormality.

i was thinking the same thing lol.


copps, how did macna go? any pics?

[jaa1456]

It's funny to see how the hobby has evolved over the years. I mean these rusty-flame hybrids have been around for years and I mean years. They were going for 200-300 in the NYC area 10 years ago. I think copps needs to stop taking all this credit for finding the true ID for this fish when has been well known for years. Just because someone makes the story public does not mean they are the first ones to break the story. They are nice looking fish but IMO overpriced. Like the way mutts are today. A labordoodle was once given away for free, someone figured out hey call it designer and charge a ton of money for it.