View Full Version : "Balance" by Aquavitro @ macna
hayabusa2003
09/30/2009, 09:25 AM
Aquavitro was at MACNA this past weekend showing off their new "premium" line of products. One of the products - Balance - is used to adjust the Ph without affecting Calcium or Alkalinity.
The rep explained that this liquid chemical converts available Bicarbonate into carbonate, thus raising Ph without affecting the Alk. (We do something similar by baking Baking Soda as part of Randy's 2part recipe).
I'm by no means a chemist, so was wondering if it was chemically possible for the aquavitro Balance product to do what it says, or is this just marketing hype?
bertoni
09/30/2009, 09:29 AM
The ingredients include sodium and potassium hydroxide, both of which add alkalinity. I don't know of any way to change the pH of saltwater without affecting alkalinity except by outgassing carbon dioxide.
Boomer
09/30/2009, 10:22 AM
Jon is 100 % correct. The guy is lost.
this liquid chemical converts available Bicarbonate into carbonate, thus raising Ph without affecting the Alk.
First, bicarbonate and carbonate are both Alk components. What really happens is two fold, the OH- combines with CO2 giving HCO3- bicarbonate and some of the OH- will combine with HCO3- to give carbonate
NaOH ===> Na + OH-
OH - + CO2 ===> HCO3- = Alk and pH increase
Some of that OH- will go
OH- + HCO3- ===> CO3-- + H20 = Alk and pH increase
In both cases the effect is mostly on increasing the pH, with little effect on the Alk but not no effect.
Many people use Kalk, Ca(OH) which does the same thing, it adds Alk and increases the pH. Some people can use this for all their Ca++, Alk and pH demands.
Baking soda on the other hand has a greater effect at raising the Alk with a much less effect on pH. If on the other hand we use "washing soda"/ Soda Ash, it impacts both the Alk and pH more equally.
Any buffer, used to raise the pH or the Alk and this is more or less a buffer will always raise the pH and Alk. It is just that some do it more than others.
Toadally
09/30/2009, 01:10 PM
Thanks for the info! Very informative!
hayabusa2003
09/30/2009, 01:17 PM
Thanks!
Randy Holmes-Farley
09/30/2009, 01:38 PM
I'd think of it as highly potent limewater, minus the calcium. It is not soemthing I'd usually use, but there may be situations where it or similar products could be useful. :)
Boomer
09/30/2009, 02:13 PM
You're Welcome :)
stanlalee
09/30/2009, 07:31 PM
to be fair whatever the rep said at macna actual product description reads as follows (dont see the reference to ca AND alk):
"The first product of its kind, balance™ ends this see-saw effect. It resets this ratio by converting bicarbonate into carbonate in order to reassert a higher pH without affecting calcium"
Boomer
09/30/2009, 09:26 PM
That is a bunch of marketing hype. Any product that is added to the water that raises the pH resets the bicarbonate - carbonate ratio. As pH is a function of that ratio.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-10/rhf/images/Figure1.jpg
And despite what they say it surly can affect the Ca++ and more so the Mg++ depending on how much you use, as it can cause precip and cloudy water.
The good thing about this product that I like is that is can help those that have normal Ca++ levels, do not want it raised and they have high indoor CO2, which may be an issue and hard to remove. Its real purpose and function is to remove CO2 from the system which raises the pH.
(dont see the reference to ca AND alk)
That means nothing and they are just not stating it. It is a fact of carbonate and hydroxide chemistry.
OH - + CO2 ===> HCO3- = Alk and pH increase
It makes bicarbonate and bicarbonate is alk. Carbonate Hardness (Alk) is OH- (Hydroxide), HCO3- (Bicarbonate), and CO3- (Carbonate) and Borate.
ends this see-saw effect
Not so at all, if CO2 enters the system the pH will drop, you add more and the pH goes back up, that is see-saw :). In order to stop any see-saw effect you would need an auto-doser and a pH controller to stop any so called see-saw effect during the day-day or from day - night pH shifts.
jjk_reef00
09/30/2009, 09:39 PM
Thanks for the info Boomer, I didn't think they could raise ph without alk...
Boomer
09/30/2009, 09:56 PM
jjk
It just has little impact on Alk, just like baking soda has little effect on pH and more on Alk. The only thing that can raise or lower the pH with no impact on Alk is CO2. The addition of bicarbonate, carbonate, HCl, and NaOH affects the Alk and pH. Only bicarbonate and carbonate affect both the CO2 and Alk. CO2 only affects the pH.
hayabusa2003
09/30/2009, 09:57 PM
From the bottle's directions -
When to use balance™? balance™ is intended to be used to raise pH when all other parameters (alkalinity, calcium, magnesium) are at optimal levels, but pH is still low. T
When I asked what this meant, the rep explained that by changing the available bicarbonate into carbonate in my system, the Ph will rise without changing my current levels of alk and calcium.
At any rate, from what Boomer and Randy explained, although it doesn't do exactly what it says it does, it does increase Ph and could be useful in certain situations.
Randy Holmes-Farley
10/01/2009, 04:40 AM
FWIW, hydroxide, as in this product, has about twice the pH boost per unit of alkalinity as does baked baking soda. About 0.67 pH units per 0.5 meq/L of alkalinity, while carbonate (as in baked baking soda) has about 0.34 pH units per 0.5 meq/L of alkalinity. :)
I show that experimentally here:
The Relationship Between Alkalinity and pH.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm
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