View Full Version : Could Tech M kill both bryopsis AND ich?
redfishsc
09/30/2009, 10:32 AM
I am suspecting that whatever impurity is in the Kent Tech M that kills bryopsis can either kill ich or severely hamper it. Some folks have speculated that it's a trace amount of copper that does it, which would possibly kill the ich also.
Here is why.
About two months ago my fish got a mild ich outbreak due to me not quarantining a newcomer. I am unable to get the two damsels out of my tank without a total tear-down (tried every method except buying expensive fish traps, even tried baited fish hooks to no luck).
I immediately began using garlic extract on all the food. The ich outbreak never killed a single thing and seemed to be held "steady".
A month ago I started with dosing Kent Tech M to kill bryopsis, which has worked.
I also noticed that any trace of ich has been gone for two weeks now. Before the Tech M (and the beginning week or two) there was always a spot or two on something. Now, nothing.
I have continued the garlic since I am pretty sure the ich can still be in the tank in a dormant state or just in recession, but I wonder if the impurity (copper?) in the Tech M has put the last nail in the coffin.....
Anyone with fish in their reef they can't catch and has ich, maybe give the Kent Tech-M a shot and see if it helps. Expect any anemone or euphyllia to not like the procedure, but I have not lost any coral to this. Frogspawn seems to hate it, torch seems to not mind it at all.
David Grigor
09/30/2009, 10:48 AM
As far as I'm aware. No one has been able to identify exactly what in Tech M is killing the byropsis. So being able to also link it with ich would be tough to do.
bertoni
09/30/2009, 03:59 PM
I am skeptical that the same ingredient is toxic to both organisms, but it's not impossible.
redfishsc
09/30/2009, 04:03 PM
I want to be hopeful, Bertoni, but I am skeptical... but I thought it was worth the post here to bounce it off some more experienced folks than I.
It's entirely possible that the fish have fought off the ich naturally, I have seen this happen with other parasites in both fresh and saltwater, or perhaps the garlic has actually helped.
I certainly won't say that the tank is ich-free, but right now (and for the past several weeks) I have seen no ich at all.
I did a large water change last week (40%) to remove some of the Tech M from the tank since it was apparently harming my frogspawn, but in a weeks time the bryopsis made a valiant recovery. So yesterday and today I bombed the tank with it again and will leave it in there for several more weeks. Obviously the bryo didn't die off completely. I only have two heads of frogspawn, so if I need to give it away or find a surrogate home for it, it's no loss.
ethank77
09/30/2009, 04:57 PM
or did the fishes natraul imune systems win the battle and they are not related.
I have taken in several fish that had ich and cured it by simply putting them in a stress free enviroment with good water. may be the new fish upset your ballance creating stress wich weakend imune systems after time and lowered stress levels they cured them selves.
not saying that its not possible but just a thought
redfishsc
09/30/2009, 05:41 PM
or did the fishes natraul imune systems win the battle and they are not related.
It's entirely possible that the fish have fought off the ich naturally, I have seen this happen with other parasites in both fresh and saltwater, or perhaps the garlic has actually helped.
I agree, it's a definite possibility that they recovered on their own. I seldom encounter ich so I don't know how virulent it normally is. I'm taking every precaution I can, short of removing all the fish (which as mentioned above, isn't happening :fun5:
I mention the Tech M because of the correlation between the intentional overdosing and the disappearance of the ich.
ethank77
09/30/2009, 05:56 PM
I am not at all trying to say that what happened is not related to the tech m I am not an expert on any thing except cranes and I apoligize I must have missed the post where you spoke of natrual process.
Billybeau1
09/30/2009, 06:01 PM
Garlic is more of a boost to the fishes immune system and probably does not do anything once the actual disease starts.
I also doubt anything in Tech-M can actually fight an already diseased fish.
You may have been seeing some stress issues and it likely took care of itself.
But anything is possible. It is worth keeping an eye on. :)
FWIW, Tech-M did not kill my bryopsis. I guess it works for some but not others.
redfishsc
09/30/2009, 06:02 PM
I am not at all trying to say that what happened is not related to the tech m I am not an expert on any thing except cranes and I apoligize I must have missed the post where you spoke of natrual process.
Lol, I could use your crane right about now. I have a 50cc scooter that is 2 years old that I drive around campus, and it is literally falling apart quicker than I can repair it.
Yes, a crane would be real nice right about now.... and a video camera ;)
redfishsc
09/30/2009, 06:06 PM
Garlic is more of a boost to the fishes immune system and probably does not do anything once the actual disease starts.
I also doubt anything in Tech-M can actually fight an already diseased fish.
You may have been seeing some stress issues and it likely took care of itself.
But anything is possible. It is worth keeping an eye on. :)
Agreed on all points ;).
I would like to see how the Tech M would work in a tank with a larger scale infestation. If... a big if... this stuff contains a "pesticide" agent (copper, lead, pixie dust?), perhaps it would kill the free-swimming stages and thus, once the parasite completes it's life cycle and drops of the fish, any free swimming critters would be susceptible to the unknown agent.
Sorry, I know it's all speculation, but wouldn't it be nice if there was something to it?
erbio
09/30/2009, 09:56 PM
I think your fish were stressed with the newcomer which led to the mild ich outbreak as you say.
The fish were then able to fight off the ich when the fish calmed down.
HighlandReefer
10/01/2009, 07:22 AM
redfishsc,
There has been a lot of research that I have found on the synergistic effects of different heavy metals on micro-organisms. Nothing specific to the marine ich organism that I can find. Needless to say, the effects of heavy metals and their combinations is a very complicated subject, since these metals effect many processes within the organisms.
Personally, I would not be surprised if the synergistic combinations of heavy metals will either kill the ich organism or severely disable it at lower concentrations then found by individual heavy metals.
Whether or not the levels in Tech M when overdosing are high enough to accomplish this is a good question. :D
This a search regarding synergistic effects of heavy metals on micro-organisms (certainly there is a lot out there on this subject):
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=10&q=synergistic+effect+heavy+metals+micro-organisms&hl=en
HighlandReefer
10/01/2009, 07:42 AM
I would imagine that there could be a large variance in the effects that the heavy metals and their synergistic reactions would have on organisms in individual tanks, since heavy metals can be quickly absorbed by DOM, rock, sand and other organisms such as bacterial populations increased by carbon dosing. ;)
redfishsc
10/01/2009, 08:09 AM
Good points, Cliff. I'll have to read the article when I get off work tonight.
Perhaps if I ever have some damsels with ich, I'll quaranteen them and load the tank with Tech M and see if it's actually disrupting the life cycle or even killing the free-swimming stages.
I would love to find that it helps fight off the stuff since it's reef safe (well, almost reef safe at overdosing levels).
Lightsluvr
12/07/2009, 12:01 PM
posted in wrong thread...
soloiiwolf
12/07/2009, 01:25 PM
Redfishsc,
FWIW I have been battling a pretty bad outbreak of ich the past few months in my 220. I went through the whole breakdown process and apparently didn't go fallow long enough. Needless to say the outbreak came back. My hippo had the worst outbreak I have seen him have a couple of weeks ago.
A local reefer had a 40W UV Sterilizer for sale so I thought I'd at least give it a try. Maybe it would kill some of the free swimming parasites. A couple of weeks have gone by and the hippo is completely clear. I am curious to see if he has another bad outbreak in the next week or two. That said he usually always had a few spots.
After reading this thread I just realized that about the same time I brought the sterilizer online I tested my Mag and it was really low. I ended up doing some pretty heavy dosing with a dry type of mag (forget the brand) to bring the levels back in line.
Who knows maybe the Mag does have an impact on ich? Probably just coincidence but I thought I'd mention it as it is somewhat similar to what you are experiencing.
redfishsc
12/07/2009, 03:18 PM
Who knows maybe the Mag does have an impact on ich? Probably just coincidence but I thought I'd mention it as it is somewhat similar to what you are experiencing.
In your case I'd certainly say coincidence. Probably the hippo was able to fight it off with it's own immunity.
The theory here is that the magnesium is totally worthless. It's not the magnesium in Tech M (specifically that brand) that kills bryopsis (or ich, for that matter, and this is just a wild-hair theory since I found a correlation in my tank with dosing Tech M and ich clearing up).
The whole thing depends on some unnamed, unindicated impurity in Tech M. Tech M used to list copper as an "ingredient", and the theory is that bryopsis (and ich?) has a WAAY lower tolerance for copper than corals/fish.... and thus adding Tech M kills bryo but not corals.
But we don't know. Tech M has a brown color, looks like wet skimmate. Magnesium chloride and sulfate (the two ingredients in Tech M) are crystal clear. There's a lot of something in Tech M that is doing the work and we don't know what it is.
And the ich thing is just big-time speculation and my own wishful thinking ;)
smorrow5773
12/07/2009, 06:38 PM
Interesting topic, last year I was fighting ich in the display as well as some briopsis. I also overdosed to get rid of the algae and have never seen ich since. I never thought the 2 were related, I figured the fish fought it off naturally, but maybe there is something going on here. I guess we need someone to set up an experiment.
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