View Full Version : Red Sea Coral Buff/raising alk
Crazed
09/30/2009, 11:28 PM
Okay, I've read a lot about the subject and I have a general idea of the theoretical part of this, but I'd like to get some opinions from people who have actually done it. I might jump around a bit in the post so I'll bold the important things.
My tank has been running with 90 lbs of live rock and about 30 lbs of aragonite sand for about 4 months now. It currently has no coral in it (aside from any negligible things that came with the live rock).
I've been waiting because of my alkalinity level.
I've tested with an API kit and a Red Sea kit, and both times it came out to be around 6.4 dKH/2.28 meq. This has dropped a bit from the last time I tested it a couple months ago, which was 7.28 dKH (this might be inaccurate, though). This is obviously low, and I'd like to get it up before I add any corals.
My pH has a high of 8.34 with lights on for a couple hours, measured by a probe. During the day, after the lights have been on, I've seen it go down to about 8.23. The latest I've tested at nighttime recently is about an hour afte the lights have gone off, where it was 8.23. I'll wake up early and test it before the lights go on after night to see the true low.
I'd like to get my alk to at least 8.5 dkH. I have some Red Sea Coral Buff that I bought several months ago, before I even started my tank. I also have another solution that has calcium, strontium and magnesium, and another that has just calcium.
So, should I add this Coral Buff? What actually is it? Is it some form of kalkwasser, or something else?
I use Red Sea Coral Pro salt. My tank's about 80 gallons and I change 4 gallons every week. I stopped for about a month since I took water out of my tank to fill my quarantine tank and replaced it with 15 gallons of fresh salt water, so I was good for a few weeks without changes. I just resumed my regimen, and it's still low.
Should I go ahead and add this buffer, get something else, or increase my water changes? Why is my alkalinity so low? Is this natural with such a low load of calcium-building organisms? (The only thing I can think of that I have actually placed into the tank are a handful of snails.)
Thanks. :)
Alk: 2.28 meq/L, 6.4 dKH
Temp: 82F peak in daytime, 80F nighttime
Calcium: 480ppm
pH: 8.24-8.34 daytime
Sal: 35ppt
Percula9
10/01/2009, 12:33 AM
Is there any fish in the tank? Raise alk with baking soda or Reef Buffer by Seachem.Don't use the Red sea product.:wavehand:
Crazed
10/01/2009, 12:45 AM
Yes, there are two fish in the tank - I should have made that clear, sorry about that.
Any particular reason why you wouldn't use the Red Sea product?
I don't know what's in the Red Sea product and have never used it. Does it have a label to tell you what's in it? Anecdotally, I have used their test kits and don't trust them based on my experience. Baking soda works for me.
Crazed
10/01/2009, 12:54 AM
Well, all I see is a warning label saying it contains sodium hydroxide. I don't see any other composition information.
Do you have links/explanations for information on using baking soda for this purpose?
Billybeau1
10/01/2009, 07:18 AM
Red Sea Coral Pro is inherently low on alkalinity out of the box. If you want to raise it, use good old arm & hammer baking soda. Make sure it is not scented. Use this calculator to determine dosage.
http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html
Good luck.
Crazed
10/01/2009, 07:47 AM
Thank you. :D
Okay, new information and some other questions. My pH at its nighttime lowest is 8.08. So, the full range is 8.34-8.08. If you ask me my pH values aren't too bad, right?
Anyway, other question is, the dosing of the baking soda... how often should I be adding it? Should I be testing alk every few days the first time I do it (and every time I get new skeletal corals) to determine the rate, or is there something better to do?
Also, would it be good to supplement my stored saltwater for water changes too? That way when I make my weekly change, it'll have the correct alk?
Thanks!
Billybeau1
10/01/2009, 08:00 AM
You pH is fine.
There are many ways to manage alkalinity. Consumption rates vary from tank to tank. You will need to find out how much your tank consumes.
I add mine to my top off water since I add about a gallon per day. Once you find out how much you need, this is a pretty simple process.
This link has some ideas
"How to select a calcium and alkalinity supplementation scheme"
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm
Good luck.
Crazed
10/01/2009, 08:02 AM
Alrighty, awesome. I'll check out that link. :)
I edited another question into my post just as you posted, so you probably didn't see it: "Also, would it be good to supplement my stored saltwater for water changes too? That way when I make my weekly change, it'll have the correct alk?"
Thank you!
Billybeau1
10/01/2009, 08:04 AM
Also, would it be good to supplement my stored saltwater for water changes too? That way when I make my weekly change, it'll have the correct alk?
Thanks!
While many supplement their stored salt water with calcium & magnesium, I do not think it is useful to try and raise the alkalinity of that container. Remember, you are only changing 15 to 20 % water or so at a time and it would have little affect on the main tanks total alkalinity. I prefer to add alkalinity directly to the main tank via top off water.
Crazed
10/01/2009, 08:11 AM
Okay, makes sense. Thank you, again! :D
I'll post if I have any more questions after I read your link.
Crazed
10/01/2009, 10:25 AM
Sorry in advanced for the boatload of questions again. Once again I'll bold them since I stray.
Okay, I read it and used the calculator. It says I should use .6 ounces of baking soda to raise it. Now, I know I can't add it all at once; how much should I add per day? Also, if it pushes my pH too low, should I switch to sodium carbonate?
Also, am I correct in assuming that the ultimate goal here is to balance calcium and alk, and when they are both balanced, switch to something that supplements both like kalkwasser? Or should I just keep independently managing the two of them? Is that just down to preference? I also have something from Red Sea that increases calcium; if my levels start to drop, can I use that? (I'm not sure what's in it, but my guess is aqueous calcium since there's a bunch of undissolved solid on the bottom that you have to shake up) What form of calcium would you use to make your own supplement?
If I didn't do limewater, after my calc and alk are balanced, should I dissolve calcium (and maybe mag) into one bottle and 2x the concentration of baking soda in the other, then add a fixed amount of both to the tank? Like if I had 125,500 ppm of calcium in one bottle (which I think is the concentration of calcium in my supplement, if I've calculated it correctly), I should have 251,000 of baking soda in the other, and then add them both at an amount that would make up for the depletion of the elements? At least, omething like that, or diluted to make the concentration lesser for ease of dosing. Or am I totally off base?
Crazed
10/02/2009, 08:06 AM
Bump! If someone could answer that, that'd be great, since I'd like to get started soon. :)
Billybeau1
10/02/2009, 12:28 PM
How you want to supplement and whether or not you want to use limewater is your choice.
The answer to the raising alk question is you can raise alk as much as you want as long as it does not affect an immediate rise of more than .2 units of pH.
As far as a 2-part, the homemade diy can be found here
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php
If you want to dose limewater, it can be found here
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm
The choice is up to you. Read on my friend.
Crazed
10/02/2009, 02:17 PM
Thank you, Billybeau. :) This is a lot of information to consider but I'll work on getting the alk and calcium balanced, then go from there. Hopefully by that time I'll have a feel for alkalinity.
Billybeau1
10/03/2009, 06:01 AM
Your welcome. :)
Crazed
10/03/2009, 12:07 PM
I've began supplementing my alk with the bakign soda. It's working great so far. The pH seems mostly the same since last night (though of course there was a local drop in the sump when I added it), and the inhabitants are fine. I've raised it up to 7.5 dkH since last night and I plan to slowly keep raising it up to 8.5 dKH.
I'm thinking that eventually, I'll probably go with kalkwasser, but I don't want to do an automated system at the moment until things are stablized enough for my tastes. So, for now, I think I'll stick with the two-part system and one of the recipes used in that article.
I have a question though. The article recommends using Dowflake for the calcium, but I've read that it is no longer safe. What calcium should I use instead? Is there another industrial product that is safe to use, or is there some kind of pure calcium in bulk I can buy from a reputable aquarium product maker and mix myself? Like, Kent turbo calcium? Then just mix it to the desired concentration?
HighlandReefer
10/03/2009, 12:29 PM
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/Calcium,-Alkalinity-&-Magnesium-Calcium-Chloride/c1_2/p5/1-Gallon-Bulk-Calcium-Chloride-for-Aquariums/product_info.html
"Made with pharmaceutical grade material"
Crazed
10/04/2009, 09:03 PM
Thanks. :)
Crazed
11/16/2009, 06:59 PM
Alright, small update. I added baking soda, over time, to adjust the alkalinity initially. I got tied up with other things for a while, and I hadn't been doing a regular dose or testing pH for a couple weeks. One day, I was preparing to bake the baking soda and set up the two-part scheme, and I recalibrated my pH meter. However, when I went to test the water, it was 7.7 pH, not 8.2. (Just so you know, I already talked to the manufacturer and I've recalibrated it since then, and we determined the probe is working fine). So, either my meter wasn't calibrated right the first time, or my pH dropped because of the baking soda. Is that possible? I added 4 tsp to 77 gallons of water over the course of 48 hours, but initially, the pH supposedly only went down to 8.2. Was the meter wrong, or could it have been a delayed effect?
At any rate, the baking soda is currently in the oven (since I thought 8.3 was too high a pH reading to be believable without any supplementation in the first place, I went with Recipe #1). I'm going to get the alkalinity up slowly, and hopefully it'll raise the pH, but any analysis of what happened that you guys might be able to provide would be very appreciated. :)
If you didn't dose it for a couple of weeks it was likely used up.
Crazed
11/16/2009, 08:12 PM
That part I understand, but why would the pH drift to a value than it *originally* was before I started dosing?
HighlandReefer
11/16/2009, 08:22 PM
The baking soda may have caused a small drop in pH, but nothing major. I would think your miscalibrated pH meter would not provide trustworthy results. ;)
bertoni
11/16/2009, 08:25 PM
For a fixed alkalinity level, the pH is determined by the carbon dioxide content of the water, and that can vary. Aeration in the system will tend to drive the carbon dioxide level to equilibrium with the ambient air, and alkalinity supplements often consume or add to the carbon dioxide level, so small variations in pH are common.
Crazed
11/16/2009, 08:40 PM
Still though, 8.3 to 7.7 is a pretty big shift. I know I did leave my windows open in the fall, but I closed them recently, so I know the carbon dioxide concentration in the room is probably higher, but surely it can't have *that* much of a drastic impact?
Oh well, I suppose it was miscalibrated, then. I was just asking because I wanted to know if it was in the realm of possibility for it to drift that much. I'm going to go to the LFS and ask them to compare its testing results with one of their own probes and see if mine is still bad, or if I can rely on it. I can't read the color test kits for crap, so I honestly have no idea at the moment. :p
At any rate, I baked my baking soda on a cookie sheet as directed, and I just now got it to dissolve in the gallon container. I'll start adding that slowly and see what comes of it. Do you expect bringing the alkalinity to a good level will bring the pH back up?
Yes it is a big drift but if I understand you correctly you didn't dose alkalinity for several weeks. A decline in alkalinity would reduce buffering capacity and could contribute to lower ph.
bertoni
11/16/2009, 10:21 PM
Were the measurements taken at the same time of day? Many tanks have a significant shift from night to day. I agree that very low alkalinity could be part of the issue, as well.
Crazed
11/16/2009, 11:34 PM
Yes, it was taken around the same time of day. The lowest I had seen prior to that was 7.9 at night.
What is most strange though, as I've said, is that I wasn't supplementing alkalinity when it was reading at the average daytime value of 8.2. I raised the alkalinity with plain baking soda once over a period of a couple days, and then I didn't do it again. So, either it dropped down to an average of 7.8-7.9, or the tank was never actually at 8.3 in the first place. So, I'm not really sure what to think. I tend to agree with the current pH meter; I don't think my tank would have been at 8.3 with no alk supplement in the first place.
Thanks for everyone's help, by the way. :)
bertoni
11/17/2009, 02:42 AM
You're welcome! Good luck!
Crazed
11/19/2009, 02:03 PM
Okay, I've added aboute 100 mL of the solution since the 16th... I make sure it doesn't shoot up more than .2 per day, and although it goes down a bit after it mixes, I've seen a noticable increase from a stable 7.63 on the 16th to 7.82 today. I added more today and now it's up to 8.02 (but that'll probably go down). My alk, before dosing today, was only 7 dKH (which is an increase of just under 1 dkH since starting), so I think by teh time I get to like 9 dKH, my pH might be just about right. :D
Everything seem alright with that? Thanks in advance!!
bertoni
11/19/2009, 04:12 PM
That sounds fine so far. :)
Crazed
11/20/2009, 08:50 PM
Okay, awesome.
Also, I just wanted to say, I did the 1/2 teaspoon of Borax into a pint of water test, and it read pH 9.21 at 70.1F. So, the meter is working properly! :D Still going along on the adding of the alk, but now that I can trust the pH meter I can be a lot more assured. I'll post if I can't get the pH where I want it, but thanks again for everyone's help.
bertoni
11/21/2009, 10:35 PM
Okay, sounds great! Good luck!
Crazed
11/24/2009, 10:48 PM
Okay, a few days later, some new theories. The pH right now is holding at a high of 8.0 and a low of 7.9. Not too bad, but the alk is within 8.8-9.5 dKH, so it should be higher than that. So, I did a couple experiments recommended on another web page.
I aerated a sample of the water early in the morning, about 500 mL, for an hour using indoor air and an airstone, and it stayed at 7.9. Then I took another cup, and set the pump and sample on the window sill, and in an hour it shot up to about 8.2. So, apparently, I have high indoor CO2. But what I don't understand is that I leave my windows open year-round, run a ceiling fan, and don't have any gas appliances. I'm going to open the windows further, and it's a good thing I like the winter because it's going to get cold in Pennsylvania soon, hehe. :)
Anyway, I'm at a bit of a loss what I should do. I suppose the pH and alkalinity are in an acceptable range right now, but I'd like to have more room for comfort without boosting the alkalinity way, way up. I have an ASM skimmer, which uses a water pump with a venturi in it. Should I just run airline from my tank to my windowsill (about 10 feet)? Would that help, or should I be doing something else?
Thanks!
Randy Holmes-Farley
11/25/2009, 06:41 AM
I'm not sure why the open windows are not adequate.
Maybe too much heavy breathing. :D
The skimmer airline may help. :)
Crazed
12/08/2009, 07:40 PM
Thanks for the reply, Randy! :)
I got a new airline and I haven't hooked it up yet, but my father suggested something that might make sense, but I wanted to check with Randy (and everyone else) to see if it makes sense.
As I said, we have no gas appliances and our propane water heater's exhaust is entirely on the other side of the house. However, what we do have is central air conditioning, and we use a anti-bacterial/anti-fungal system that utilizes a UV light, and it produces ozone. It's not much, but... Does ozone have any effect on pH?
Thanks!
Randy Holmes-Farley
12/08/2009, 07:42 PM
No, that should not impact pH. Sorry.
Something that adds CO2 would be the thing to watch for. People and anything burning, typically. :D
Crazed
12/08/2009, 07:43 PM
Argh, okay. Thought I might have been on to something there. I have no idea what else could be producing it, but thanks anyway. :) We'll see if the airline works.
Randy Holmes-Farley
12/09/2009, 05:50 AM
You're welcome.
Good luck. :)
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