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arredondojason
10/04/2009, 04:37 PM
ok so i have been studying vodka dosing for about 8 months now my main ? is there any negetives to vodka dosing aside if you dose to much.

harper
10/04/2009, 04:47 PM
The last time vodka dosing was in vogue (the original mini-reef 25 years ago) many experts had all types of unexplained bad things that could happen. It was very successful for those with the patients back then. It went out of style though and here we are doing it all over again. Never heard a real reason not to do it. Just take it slow. The best part for me is having a reason to always have some vodka on hand. I can tell you heavy vodka self dosing can be bad for relationships. :)

redtop03
10/04/2009, 06:04 PM
it does work at lowering nitrates,but strong aeration is needed as it does lower the oxygen and in turn lowers the PH in the water,a good skimmer it also recommended....the water will become amazingly clear,which in turn allows better light penetration :D

just go slow,I would recommend to start with about half what most people are using and gradually step up the dosage over a few weeks time

JGHA
10/04/2009, 06:40 PM
Good in my opinion. Read this link its really useful in understanding how vodka dosing works all the chemistry involved and it also guides you on how much to dose.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

arredondojason
10/04/2009, 06:49 PM
i am going to start out at 0.1 ML per 25 gal. of water total system then jump it to 0.2 per gal. days 4-7 then add 0.5 ML every week till i see results and then use that as my daily dosage.
I am running an AquaC EV 240 on my system with a mag 18 pump overdriving it so I think that this will keep my O2 up and i will be running carbon in a reactor as well.
One other ? is it any different when acclimating corals and fish or just do the drip method.

arredondojason
10/05/2009, 02:30 PM
bump for an awnser!!!!
hopefully.

Billybeau1
10/05/2009, 03:13 PM
If the proper dosage is followed, I see no difference in the way you acclimate your new inhabitants from what I have read so far. :)

HighlandReefer
10/05/2009, 04:46 PM
Vodka dosing or for that matter dosing any of the carbon source leads to a lot of questions, which I have not seen any real answers for:

How are the coral symbiotic algae and bacteria affected by carbon dosing? Coral secrete a mucal layer which has many types of bacteria and algae. In many cases these organisms are somewhat specific to a specie of coral. Does carbon dosing increase the numbers of the natural organisms or does it increase the numbers of other organisms in this mucal layer? Does increasing the number of bacteria in the mucal layer cause problems for the Coral? Some research indicates that it can. Perhaps this is one reason why hobbyists note a change in colors? Is this change good or bad though?

How does carbon dosing affect the natural populations found in sand. Sand or even live rock contains many types of bacteria, dinoflagellates, cyanobacteria......etc. Is the affect good or bad?

How does carbon dosing affect the natural populations of living organisms found in the water column of a reef tank? We know that the bacteria content increases, but does it also increase the number of dinos, cyanobacteria......etc. Probably yes. Is this good or bad?

Does carbon dosing cause more problems if you have a type of algae, cyano, dino .....etc that is present in your tank which is difficult to control and not in other tanks? The answer could be yes.

Some hobbyists add bacteria on a regular basis while dosing a carbon source. How does this really affect the ecosystem found in a glass box?

I could go on and on. ;)

Despite the questions I have about carbon dosing, I dose sugar. :D

If anyone has scientific answers to the above questions, I for one would be very interested. ;)

TomNeely
10/05/2009, 07:12 PM
tagging along.....

tmz
10/06/2009, 12:13 AM
Great questions Cliff. Excellent talking points.

jenglish
10/06/2009, 12:31 AM
I'm not a doser but I thought it was an attempt to restore natural redfield ratios (C:N:P) so bacteria could grow and be skimmed out. I think that like anything else you are adding or subtracting you have to be careful with proportions and consistent. I wouldn't dose because I would never be consistent enough. I would see something shiney and wonder off.:D

tmz
10/06/2009, 12:48 AM
Dosing carbon is based on the assumption that bacteria in an aquarium are carbon limited. I don't think it's necessarily about the redfield ratio as much as it is growing more bacteria which will consume PO4 and NO3. Wether or not sufficient export of the organic carbon added to a system can be accomplished by a skimmer is a very big question.

jenglish
10/06/2009, 12:55 AM
Well, maybe not restoring the ratio... but as you say carbon can be the limiting factor when we add N and P but not C. If the bacteria were not being removed I don't think they would really be removing, only binding it and that would make it a fairly short term solution. I talked to a fellow who was using carbon dosing and a HOB in a nano and just washing the sponge every couple days to remove the bacteria population. Whethor this is removing bacteria and thus nutrients is undetermined.

HighlandReefer
10/06/2009, 06:16 AM
An example of one of my questions is this phenomena in my tank. I have been fighting an infestation of what I believe is Derbesia. I have it pretty much under control now. I was dosing sugar and stopped, along with extremely reduced feeding, cutting my lighting in half. I run GFO with zero readings using the Hach PO-19 kit. My nitrates climbed up to around 40 ppm, yet I still gained control of the algae. I used AlgaeFix which slowed the growth somewhat, but did not control it.

I started dosing sugar about a month ago (after gaining control of the algae). Now I have some problems starting over again. Is it the sugar causing the population increase of the dinoflagellates?

Notice all the bubbles coming off of the pest. I have been cleaning the pest weekly, so you really can't see the growth well. In the lower portions of my tank (less light), there are no bubbles and the dino population is much lower.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3447/3979457985_c1d01d6cbc.jpg


A closer look under the microscope reveals a siphoning algae (Derbesia, I believe) mixed with dinoflagellates and some cyanobacteria. This is the first time I have seen so many dinoflagellates mixed in with the algae. It is interesting that the dinos are only found in the well lit areas.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2542/3979457873_1a2248a774.jpg


The much smaller organisms, I assume are bacteria. I did not increase the magnification to look closer; probably should have though. :D

:hammer:

sedor
10/06/2009, 06:27 AM
HighlandReefer your asking some very interesting questions, all of which I wish I could answer, but i'd like to stick around to learn a little myself.

As far as vodka dosing goes I am fairly new to the club myself and the only advice I can offer this far along is to move slow. It seems like a few drops in a large water volume couldn't do much, but once you start dosing you will realize how strong a carbon source really is. I started off with the recommended 0.3 ml in my tank and within 3 days I had a large bacteria bloom (cloudy, sweet smelling water). Of course you want to avoid that because it can lower your ph to deadly levels. What I did was back off dosing all together for a couple days, and then I started again at the smallest amount I could. 0.1 ml a day along with 1 drop of mb7. After a week I moved up to 0.2 and 2 drops and then a week later moved up to 0.3 and 3 drops. When I went up to 0.3 again I noticed another small bloom, but not as drastic as before. Since then i've backed down to 0.2 and am keeping that as my maintenance dose for the time being. Moral of the story is to start slow because even the recommended levels were to much for me.

Other than that, I haven't found much of a danger in dosing in very small amounts. When done correctly the only negative side affect is you have to clean your skimmate cup a lot more often :D

tmz
10/06/2009, 09:44 AM
Well, maybe not restoring the ratio... but as you say carbon can be the limiting factor when we add N and P but not C. If the bacteria were not being removed I don't think they would really be removing, only binding it and that would make it a fairly short term solution. I talked to a fellow who was using carbon dosing and a HOB in a nano and just washing the sponge every couple days to remove the bacteria population. Whethor this is removing bacteria and thus nutrients is undetermined.

:D Cleaning the sponge of mulm would it seems to me export some of the n pand c. Could help a small tank if maintained diligently, I think.

Skimmers even good ones though may not be all that effective in removing enough leading to a conern about long term buildup of total organic carbon.

usefulidiot213
10/06/2009, 11:06 AM
I started Dosing Vodka on 09/25. So about 2 weeks ago. Before I started I spent about 2 - 3 months asking the same questions. I found that nobody really had any solid answers of anything bad that could happen, (as long as you didn't over dose) There are a lot of good questions of what about this or what about that.. Finally I decided that I was going to just try it for myself, very slowly and see the results for myself.
I am dosing just Vodka, no MB7. The first week no real changes. However, as I increased the dosage I did notice that my cyano is starting to retreat, and my tank has really cleared up. So far so good.

eggiel
10/08/2009, 04:54 PM
Cliff

Did you zoom in to see if the small points are bacteria
I think its very intrested to see things in a Microscope and define what is what

HighlandReefer
10/09/2009, 07:13 AM
The slide I used was a temporary slide. I will post some close-ups the next time I run a sample. ;)