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View Full Version : Methods to Brighten Corals after obtaining ULNS???


DeathWish302
10/05/2009, 07:59 AM
By means of uber-controlled feedings and persistent maintenance to the Turf Scrubber I have officially reduced cyano to near extinction and lowered my NO3 to <1ppm. Now my sps are looking a bit bland. My blue tort has started to show more green, the sunset monti is now a light orange cream color & my ORA Turq. stag is super green. I've read of three methods to cope with these changes and wanted to know everyone's experience:

1) Amino Acids - Expensive for the 50/50 output I've read about, plus your just adding an additional NO3 source. This could be accomplished by feeding heavire.

2) 'Color-Up' Products such as Brightwell Aquatics KoralColor - Results vary and I'm not a fan of adding elements I cannot monitor through testing.

3) Potassium Nitrate - I'm afraid of overdosing on K and have no idea how this will effect my cyano. After a 1 yr battle, I don't want to lose the war again!

So, what other methods have I missed? I'm not looking for a super complex system where I have to add 2 drops of this and 3 of that then next week these 3 products like the zeovit system unless I have to. I'm in the mindset less technology and complex additives and more biology. So what are you bio-types doing?

eggiel
10/05/2009, 10:48 AM
I think that anyway you try to color your corals up you will be inding verifie your nutrients you could feed more your fish put it could lead you to more nutrientes if your sistem cant export them

Also what type of lighting are you using? Having more of a bluer bulb will help you color your corals more

DeathWish302
10/05/2009, 10:58 AM
I think that anyway you try to color your corals up you will be inding verifie your nutrients you could feed more your fish put it could lead you to more nutrientes if your sistem cant export them

Also what type of lighting are you using? Having more of a bluer bulb will help you color your corals more

I know others' have said that a turf scrubber can handle hand fulls of food additions. This is not the case with my system. Cyano outbreaks occur before the turf scrubber can export the nutrients.

I'm running an XM 20k 250W SE halide right now. I've had color, but they have faded in the past few weeks from gaining the ULNS status.

Someone has had to experiment with the multiple methods of increasing color. Any experiences with those I mentioned is appreciated and sharing any additional methods you may have tried would be appreciated.

Thanks!:bounce2:

eggiel
10/05/2009, 11:12 AM
Iam running ultra low nutrient tank and my colors look good

I feed heavy and I dose Zeo amino acid since its more concentrated and I have a big skimmer that takes care of exporting almost everything I but in it

I do weekly water changes and it helps keep my levels and elements in line

Thats all i do and it helps keep my colors very nice

stealle
10/05/2009, 12:06 PM
Perhaps you lowered your nutrients a little faster than the corals liked. Maybe they will color back up on their own over time. Also, I think your corals are "hungry". I'd feed the fish a little more and dose some DT's phytoplankton once or twice a week. Also, I'd consider the Prodibio products.

Some of the most colorful systems I've seen use Prodibio (BioDigest, Bioptm, and Reef Booster) http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_viewitem.aspx?idproduct=PD01211&child=PD01211&utm_source=mdcsegooglebase2&utm_medium=cse&utm_campaign=mdcsegooglebase2&utm_content=PD01211
I don't think the Prodibio products are very cumbersome. Most of them are only weekly or every other week dosing. This will allow you to feed the fish more while keeping your nutrient levels low.

Also, some of the most colorful SPS systems I've seen use the balling method. It will dose pretty much everything your SPS needs to flourish. It's very popular in Germany. It's a great system and is what I am going to use on my next tank. It's simple to use, but means not using a calcium reactor. I think many reefers in the US are just too stubborn to give up their calcium reactor (understandably so when $ is involved). But its catching on in the US somewhat because it is so simple and not very expensive (especially after the initial cost of 3 dosing pumps).

If you aren't already familiar with the Balling Method, at least give it a look:
http://reefdreams.de/lang_eng/info_3_eng.html
and
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/reef-chemistry-forum/28307-balling-method-supplementing.html

The new manual/recipe for the "Balling Light" method:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1705491

bertoni
10/06/2009, 10:35 AM
The Balling method basically is a two-part supplement like B-Ionic with added trace minerals. I'm not sure the trace minerals are a plus, but two-part systems work well.

The coral coloration might change over time, or with different lighting, as well as with nutrient changes. I'd likely wait a few months. Another large component is genetics, which might be a limiting issue.

fullmonti
10/06/2009, 11:39 AM
I had a terrible hair algae problem in my 180 sps tank. Started using zeo system, got nitrate & phosphate to 0 for long time, no effect on algae. Finally used algaefix, which did kill algae. By this time I had starved my corals to the point colors had gone pale. I cut way back on the zeo carbon source & started feeding corals. In a week or two corals started looking better, but cyano started growing on dead algae remains I couldn't scrub off. I'm getting the balance between very little algae & nice color a bit closer now, but this question of balance is NOT AN EASY ONE is it!!!

I'm going to do some more reading about the Balling Method, sound interesting & I never have been to fond of my calcium reactor.

Years ago I had a large planted fresh water tank, after getting lights & filter balanced out it ran for years with almost no maintenance. I can't wait till I get my reef tank well balanced too.

DeathWish302
10/06/2009, 12:47 PM
The Balling method basically is a two-part supplement like B-Ionic with added trace minerals. I'm not sure the trace minerals are a plus, but two-part systems work well.

The coral coloration might change over time, or with different lighting, as well as with nutrient changes. I'd likely wait a few months. Another large component is genetics, which might be a limiting issue.

I've been using the 3-Part DIY system (Mg included) for the last year or so. The 3-Part method of Ca, Alk & Mg maintenance is rock solid once you understand your usage. I have not and DO NOT plan to add trace elements that have not been proven to beneifit coral growth, health or color. I've read too much negative about the contents of the 'Trace Element' all-in-one products that usually have excessive heavy metals. I would be possibly interested in trying amino acids and supplements such as KoralColor that do not have a heavy metal content.

From what fullmonti states, I guess I'll have to increase my feedings a bit and see what happens. What are you currently feeding your corals? I'm feeding Coral Frenzy, Cyclopeeze, Daphnia & ground up Hikari A pellet.

Boomer
10/06/2009, 01:11 PM
DW have you seen and read Danna Riddle's articles in the last few issues of Advanced Aquarist that deal with making corals brighter and more colorful ?

DeathWish302
10/06/2009, 01:31 PM
DW have you seen and read Danna Riddle's articles in the last few issues of Advanced Aquarist that deal with making corals brighter and more colorful ?

Thanks Boomer!

Looks like a good read at first glance. I'll post what I find.

iFisch
10/06/2009, 01:33 PM
DW, here you go:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1688058

The links are in there.

iFisch
10/06/2009, 01:39 PM
DW, here you go:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1688058

The links are in there.

fullmonti
10/06/2009, 05:49 PM
I'm feeding 2 drops each amino acid, potassium, coral vitalizer, 4 drops sponge power (trying to encourage sponge growth), & 1ml pohl's extra, all daily, all zeo products. Started out dosing more but algae started up again, so cut back to this, seems to be good amount for now. Corals sure do look better from when I was trying to starve the algae out.

I think I'm finally be coming attuned enough to my tank to make adjustments according to observations.

Billybeau1
10/06/2009, 05:56 PM
I always say, your eyes are the best test kit. :D

fullmonti
10/06/2009, 07:23 PM
Perhaps you lowered your nutrients a little faster than the corals liked. Maybe they will color back up on their own over time. Also, I think your corals are "hungry". I'd feed the fish a little more and dose some DT's phytoplankton once or twice a week. Also, I'd consider the Prodibio products.

Some of the most colorful systems I've seen use Prodibio (BioDigest, Bioptm, and Reef Booster) http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_viewitem.aspx?idproduct=PD01211&child=PD01211&utm_source=mdcsegooglebase2&utm_medium=cse&utm_campaign=mdcsegooglebase2&utm_content=PD01211
I don't think the Prodibio products are very cumbersome. Most of them are only weekly or every other week dosing. This will allow you to feed the fish more while keeping your nutrient levels low.

Also, some of the most colorful SPS systems I've seen use the balling method. It will dose pretty much everything your SPS needs to flourish. It's very popular in Germany. It's a great system and is what I am going to use on my next tank. It's simple to use, but means not using a calcium reactor. I think many reefers in the US are just too stubborn to give up their calcium reactor (understandably so when $ is involved). But its catching on in the US somewhat because it is so simple and not very expensive (especially after the initial cost of 3 dosing pumps).

If you aren't already familiar with the Balling Method, at least give it a look:
http://reefdreams.de/lang_eng/info_3_eng.html
and
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/reef-chemistry-forum/28307-balling-method-supplementing.html

The new manual/recipe for the "Balling Light" method:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1705491



I've been looking into the Balling Method alittle tonght, looks like it's a British or Euro thing, true?

If so is there a US equivalent, or where do you get the supplies?

Mike O'Brien
10/06/2009, 07:37 PM
If you run activated carbon, you might want to try stopping or at least cutting way back for a while.

I wouldn't buy the ULNS thing, and be looking for other problems. I've yet to hear a good enough answer to the old how can you stop algae from growing by growing algae question.

I know cyano is really frustrating. Any chance that you have a source of nutrients in the tank that is feeding it ? Old sand and rocks, or dirty sump ?

fullmonti
10/06/2009, 08:48 PM
Not really looking for answer to a algae question (though that would be nice). I still don't know what that algae was eating, tanks been set up for just under 1 yr so sand not old, have 100 micron bags on incoming water to sump, siphon sump out once a mouth, perimeters have always tested out low to 0. So still a mystery!

The glow is off of the ULNS for me. Seems way to much to strip every thing out of the water just to put most of it back in. I do like zeo additives though.

I was curious about Balling because like I said I've never been fond of a calcium reactor, CO2 lowering ph, then need to dose kalkwasser to get it back up. (I was once told that some algae can eat kalk build up on rock/sand)? When I first set up my tank I was told by LFS calcium reactor was the way to go, so I did. Still trying to find the best way for me. Also looking into Tyree zonal/natural filter system, seems to be the flip side of full blown zeo system.

Love to hear what dif people have to say about this complicated subject.

Mike O'Brien
10/06/2009, 09:26 PM
I tried a reactor myself as well, but IMO they are better suited to larger tanks.

I use baking soda and Calcium Chloride. Randy has shown that with regular water changes buildup is not a problem. Basically they are adding NaCl free salt to balance out what's added with Calcium and Alkalinity.

The glow is off of the ULNS for me. Seems way to much to strip every thing out of the water just to put most of it back in. I do like zeo additives though.


Been there done that. I think that's the last step of the disorder. LOL The things we'll do to have colorful corals. LOL

DeathWish302
10/07/2009, 07:32 AM
If you run activated carbon, you might want to try stopping or at least cutting way back for a while.

I wouldn't buy the ULNS thing, and be looking for other problems. I've yet to hear a good enough answer to the old how can you stop algae from growing by growing algae question.

I know cyano is really frustrating. Any chance that you have a source of nutrients in the tank that is feeding it ? Old sand and rocks, or dirty sump ?

What would cutting back on carbon cure? I run carbon for 12-24hrs once a week already.

I didn't really 'buy' the ULNS, it just happened with the Turf Scrubber. I'm about to shut the skimmer down and see if I can even go skimmerless with the scrubber. I'll never turn back on the scrubber, as my water is as clear when I dosed vodka (~1 month). I can show you how I stopped algae/cyano by choking it out with this turf algae. As for macro algae, it never grew for me even before the cyano war. This is due to mainly having a small bioload of a 3" & 4" clown in a total 65gal system.

All my sand and rocks in this system are at least 8 years old. I know I have a nutrient source in the sump from some detritus build-up. This is the breeding grounds of the bristleworms right now, so I'm not concerned with the small accumulation as they devour anything that settles out of the water column.

zachtos
10/07/2009, 10:53 AM
Watch your fish after you shut the skimmer off. They oxygenate the water quite a bit.

I'm doing the vodka sugar vinegar system to go ULN myself. I've been at undetectable NO3/PO4 for a long time but still have brown polyped milles. I upgraded my lighting to 400W MH coralvue reeflux 12K, started feeding the corals golden pearls from brine shrimp direct. Hopefully one of those will help me out. I do know it takes atelast a few months for the colors to come back.

stealle
10/07/2009, 12:07 PM
I've yet to hear a good enough answer to the old how can you stop algae from growing by growing algae question.

I doubt I will come up with a good enough answer then but...

Can you think of an aggressive algae like cheato as a "school bully" that goes around eating other kids lunch? If you provide cheato the right environment to grow (nutrients, lower flow, and warm lighting. also, not much of anything will eat cheato) it can consume the nutrients in the tank before algea with less favorable conditions (higher flow and a clean up crew for edible forms of algae) are able. I don't think this concept alone will completely wipe out all signs of algae in the display, but it is helpful in the battle.

Also, I wouldn't have a refugium for that purpose. I would have a refugium to increase the pod population; decreased algae in the display would just be a welcome benefit.

Mike O'Brien
10/07/2009, 02:46 PM
So if the scrubber is lowering the nutrients in the tank so much that the corals are suffering, corals that have more ways to gain energy than algae BTW, then why wouldn't the algae die ? Nice try.

What would cutting back on carbon cure? I run carbon for 12-24hrs once a week already.


It would leave more organics in the water that could possibly be used by the corals for food.

All my sand and rocks in this system are at least 8 years old. I know I have a nutrient source in the sump from some detritus build-up. This is the breeding grounds of the bristleworms right now, so I'm not concerned with the small accumulation as they devour anything that settles out of the water column.


My stuff is nine years old. I recently swapped out my sump because of a cyano problem. The cyano was gone within two days of that. A bunch of worms just are not going to remove nutrients. They excrete waste as well. You would be extremely hard pressed to find a system with enough biodiversity to reduce waste before nutrients are released into the water.

DeathWish302
10/07/2009, 03:34 PM
So if the scrubber is lowering the nutrients in the tank so much that the corals are suffering, corals that have more ways to gain energy than algae BTW, then why wouldn't the algae die ? Nice try..

Who says the corals are suffering? I do not think coral coloration is a direct indicator of health (unless they are bleaching). They have just turned a paler color of the previous vibrant shade. They do have multiple modes of energy production, but when they are used to a lagoon and the nutrients quickly drop in the water column shock sets in. This is at least what I have read. The algae and cyano has died slowly in my tank and the turf scrubber algae steals these nutrients from the water before the cyano and other algaes can process it. I bet I remove upwards of 3ozs (damp) or turf algae from my screen every 4 days whereas the small patch of bryopsis grew to 1" diameter and 1/2" tall in 2 weeks when the display cyano/algae started the decline. All I can say is the turf algae is more efficient at exporting nutrients than other algaes in my experience. Enough said...


It would leave more organics in the water that could possibly be used by the corals for food.

I'll give it a try, but the main purpose of running carbon is to remove the excess gelbstoff (yellowing compounds) that supposedly accumulates from the turf algae.


My stuff is nine years old. I recently swapped out my sump because of a cyano problem. The cyano was gone within two days of that. A bunch of worms just are not going to remove nutrients. They excrete waste as well. You would be extremely hard pressed to find a system with enough biodiversity to reduce waste before nutrients are released into the water.

If the small accumulation of detritus that is in my sump was fueling the cyano solely, then all refugiums should cause the same problems for others'. I agree it does put some nutrients into the water column once the detritus breaks down, but I think my previous feeding qty was fueling the cyano more. Could this dissolved detritus not be considered a food for corals and sponges? Would removing the carbon not do the same as leaving a small amount of detritus in the sump?

I have arrived at the consensus, that I may have had too high of food input for my system for awhile and have gained equilibrium. If I took the scrubber offline, the currently near extinct cyano should remain at the same level if my input is correct. It's just frustrating when you hear people say they are 'dumping handfuls' of food into their reef with no cyano problems to date.

I agree there are many ways to reach a goal and I appreciate another reefer's experience and opinion on my post. So, no hard feelings from me if you couldn't read through my response.

Mike O'Brien
10/07/2009, 07:12 PM
Who says the corals are suffering? I do not think coral coloration is a direct indicator of health (unless they are bleaching). They have just turned a paler color of the previous vibrant shade.

That is bleaching. It doesn't have to be completely white to have undergone loss of Zoox. Biologists often judge that based on instruments that can see changes our eyes cannot. It depends on the conditions in the tank whether or not the coral will be able to recover before it starves. That is the time where feeding becomes more important to the coral.

I'll give it a try, but the main purpose of running carbon is to remove the excess gelbstoff (yellowing compounds) that supposedly accumulates from the turf algae.


I don't believe that using it for the time you do could cause any problems like that. If it was a 24/7 thing that would be different. But also consider that turf algae is in competition with coral for space and can and do release chemicals that harm corals. IMO that is the more important use for the activated carbon.

If the small accumulation of detritus that is in my sump was fueling the cyano solely, then all refugiums should cause the same problems for others'.

I'm just stating my experience with it. It's certainly different for everyone. That's what makes it so bad. What works for one doesn't do anything for another. Like the Vodka. most I hear have an increase of cyano, others say it died quickly.

One other idea I was going to try is to get some fresh bacteria into the tank with some new rock, or possibly something right out of the ocean. Can't say that would do it, but it's worked for others. Possibly some good live sand even.

stealle
10/07/2009, 07:45 PM
So if the scrubber is lowering the nutrients in the tank so much that the corals are suffering, corals that have more ways to gain energy than algae BTW, then why wouldn't the algae die ? Nice try.

It would leave more organics in the water that could possibly be used by the corals for food.
Corals and algae do not feed on the same thing. However, there is one type of food comes from the same source: fish poop. It is my understanding that an algal scrubber or cheato fuge can remove all the "nutrients" (nitrates and phosphates) it wants without harm to corals. Corals "eat" a variety of foods, one of them is detritus. Detritus is a byproduct of fish; the byproduct of ditritus (when it comes in contact with the right bacteria) is ammonia>nitogen>nitrates. So when I mentioned the corals could be suffering from decreased bio-load, I was saying, in other words, they could be suffering from decreased detritus (not nitrates and phosphates).
Detritus can take several routes. It can land on the sand bed or live rock and be biologically broken down (eventually broken down into nitrates). It can end up in a mechanical filter. It can also land on corals and be consumed. It can also be eaten by other invertibrates, fish, or microorganisms.

So if you decrease feeding to your fish you are going to decrease feeding to your corals at the same time. Unless, you feed the corals directly with a different food source.

My stuff is nine years old. I recently swapped out my sump because of a cyano problem. The cyano was gone within two days of that. A bunch of worms just are not going to remove nutrients. They excrete waste as well. You would be extremely hard pressed to find a system with enough biodiversity to reduce waste before nutrients are released into the water.
Yes, you are right bristle worms do not remove "nutrients". They eat poop. Again, nutrients and poop are two different things. Yes, bristol worms eat poop and create more poop. However, less poop than before. Some of the poop eaten by the bristleworms will be used as energy and nutrition for the bristol worms. When the bristol worms poop it will need to be removed by the nitrogen cycle or mechanically.

It is best to feed the fish in order to reduce stress and keep them healthy. Then take measures to remove their waste such as increasing the bacteria population to break down waste (this is done by medium/deep sand bed and LR, introducing bacteria, dosing a carbon source such as vodka, feeding the fish tank) also proper filtration such as protein skimming and mechanical filtration.

Mike O'Brien
10/07/2009, 07:50 PM
OK. Your thinking is fundamentally flawed. Remember that corals contain algae, and they absolutely feed on the same things that algae does, and more.

stealle
10/07/2009, 08:20 PM
Can algae directly consume ditritus? Corals can. Sure corals contain algae, but corals are not algae and they don't have the same diet. Corals do not need "nutrients" to survive. Algae does. Corals also consume use zooxanthellae as a food source. Corals consume ditritus and other things. Corals have waste products as well. The algae within the corals live off the waste from the coral and light. Again,,, as I understand it. If I'm wrong, please explain.

Mike O'Brien
10/07/2009, 08:26 PM
It is really involved and complicated so you would be better of doing the reading yourself. A few things to start with would be bacteri farming possibly and maybe Nitrogenase. That's like a nitrogen fixing enzyme.

I don't think I'd be able to explain all of this that well.

Mike O'Brien
10/07/2009, 08:31 PM
Corals do not need "nutrients" to survive

The energy produced from photosynthesis is only that, energy. It's the energy they need to perform metabolic processes. The other part of the equation that all corals absolutely need are the nutrients. That is the raw material that is used for growth and pother processes like mucous production. There isn't a single coral on earth that can live on light alone. But please don't say that I'm saying we need to feed them. They have their own ways of eating, bacterial farming being one of them.

stealle
10/07/2009, 08:34 PM
I don't think I'd be able to explain all of this that well.

^^^ Agreed. I think maybe we both need to do some more reading. However, I can say that corals and zooxanthellae have a symbiotic relationship. The coral can feed on zooxanthellae and various other foods. As a result of eating, the coral will have waste products. The zooxanthellae lives on the waste products of the coral and light.

stealle
10/07/2009, 08:39 PM
The other part of the equation that all corals absolutely need are the nutrients.

In the fish world, people usually say "nutrients" meaning things like nitrates and phosphates. Not to be confused with "nutrition". Sure all living things need nutrition. That's why I said two posts ago to feed the fish. Starve the fish and likely starve many other inhabitants in the tank.

Good night:wave:

Mike O'Brien
10/07/2009, 08:43 PM
I do mean Nitrates and Phosphates and carbon. LOL

The zooxanthellae lives on the waste products of the coral and light.

That's why i recommend Nitrogenase. It's thought that the algae provide needed carbon to the coral and the coral provides nitrogen to the Zoox. like you say. Well read about that and corals.

bertoni
10/07/2009, 09:15 PM
Corals with symbiotic zooxanthellae are in competition with algae for phosphorus and nitrogen from the water column. Many corals can capture and digest prey and detritus directly, so the relationship can be complicated.

DeathWish302
10/07/2009, 10:07 PM
In the fish world, people usually say "nutrients" meaning things like nitrates and phosphates. Not to be confused with "nutrition". Sure all living things need nutrition. That's why I said two posts ago to feed the fish. Starve the fish and likely starve many other inhabitants in the tank.

Good night:wave:

That's where my balancing act has come into play. Feed a adequate amount for the fish which then create enough detritus to allow the hermit crabs, nassarius snails, pods, mini brittle stars & bristleworms survive. Also enough secondary detritus (everything after the primary fish detritus) needs to be in the system to breakdown in the nitrogen cycle to allow algae a food source. I never set out to eliminate algae and that is still forming on the glass and rocks.

After reading many articles from advanced aquarists (Bornemann, Spring, Fenner, Calfo, etc.) a common statement is light alone will not suffice for corals. I've never stopped feeding the corals, I've just reduced some of the amounts suggested. I will never match the quantity of food passed over a reef in the wild, nor the diversity to process this excess food input. This is where I think a clearer understanding of what my system can process is a requirement. I also feel Boomer's articles about coloration could be beneficial.

I never would have expected this thread to have so much input. Good discussion....:bounce1:

kaskiles
10/08/2009, 04:39 AM
The coral can feed on zooxanthellae and various other foods.

I did not think that corals eat zooxanthellae, I thought they consumed some of the organic materials that the zooxanthellae produce.

Maybe it is only SPS corals that do not feed on zooxanthellae and other sorts of corals do?

fullmonti
10/08/2009, 07:12 AM
Some of this thread is new to me, so if I could ask some questions?

Looks like much of the discussion started over algae scrubber. If I understand correctly algae scrubbers are used to remove excess nutrients from water, & if you remove to much you could starve your corals (which I did once).

Next question is, & this may be over simplification but doesn't a protein skimmer do more or less the same thing? And if so could a scrubber replace a skimmer?

I appreciate your patients if these are not the smartest questions.

DeathWish302
10/08/2009, 08:29 AM
Some of this thread is new to me, so if I could ask some questions?

Looks like much of the discussion started over algae scrubber. If I understand correctly algae scrubbers are used to remove excess nutrients from water, & if you remove to much you could starve your corals (which I did once).

Next question is, & this may be over simplification but doesn't a protein skimmer do more or less the same thing? And if so could a scrubber replace a skimmer?

I appreciate your patients if these are not the smartest questions.

I will try to give 'my' understanding of the dynamics of turf scrubbers. Turf scrubbers remove an immense amount of phosphate and nitrate from the water column. In my case, it has removed enough to choke out cyano when the same cyano choked chaeto and red gracillia. It has been stated in this thread and in other articles that as carbon dosing and turf scrubbers are implemented, the corals can lose color (Mike O'Brien says any color loss is bleaching). It would appear Mike is correct and the corals are 'starving' due to the less dissolved organics and/or phosphates and nitrates in the water column.

A skimmer removes some particulate matter and dissolved organics only. A skimmer cannot remove nitrates & phosphates in the water column. This is where a scrubber or carbon dosing is used to accelerate the usage rate of nitrate/phosphate to limit algae/cyano growth.

LMK if this is still not clear and I can point you in the direction of some articles.

Boomer
10/08/2009, 10:26 AM
I did not think that corals eat zooxanthellae, I thought they consumed some of the organic materials that the zooxanthellae produce.

True, they feed off the "waste" products of the zoo's.

It would appear Mike is correct and the corals are 'starving' due to the less dissolved organics and/or phosphates and nitrates in the water column.

Also true, even in nature they "feed" themselves on plankton. They do not come out at night and "sting" small prey if they did need them. If you look at the water column of a reef vs tank vs fresh seawater, fresh seawater has 10 x more bacteria in the water column than a reef tank and a actual reef has 100 x more than a reef tank. What we do not know is that very low count do to the confines of the tank and it just gets removed quickly. However, Bacterial populations on corals are also quite low in reef tanks and bacteria are a major food source and plankton is about nil.

fullmonti
10/08/2009, 10:34 AM
D W 302

Actually that helps a lot, I was not at all sure dissolved organics & nitrate/phosphate were not the same kind of thing.

I'm guessing that nitrate/phosphate are mineral & dissolved organics just animal waste?

I'm assuming one may fuel the other though?

Thanks again between this & a couple other threads I'm gaining a much better understanding of the processes going on in my tank.

DeathWish302
10/08/2009, 10:56 AM
I did not think that corals eat zooxanthellae, I thought they consumed some of the organic materials that the zooxanthellae produce.

True, they feed off the "waste" products of the zoo's.

It would appear Mike is correct and the corals are 'starving' due to the less dissolved organics and/or phosphates and nitrates in the water column.

Also true, even in nature they "feed" themselves on plankton. They do not come out at night and "sting" small prey if they did need them. If you look at the water column of a reef vs tank vs fresh seawater, fresh seawater has 10 x more bacteria in the water column than a reef tank and a actual reef has 100 x more than a reef tank. What we do not know is that very low count do to the confines of the tank and it just gets removed quickly. However, Bacterial populations on corals are also quite low in reef tanks and bacteria are a major food source and plankton is about nil.

So why does vodka dosing create a similar color loss condition in some cases if the bacteria population increases from feeding a carbon source? I'm guessing the corals are specialized feeders on specific surface bacteria and not the bacteria population driven by the carbon dosing? Just trying to find ways to have higher coral 'food' w/o causing the cyano war to erupt again....

Thanks!

fullmonti
10/08/2009, 11:09 AM
D W 302

Sorry my last question was worked very poorly. Your last post is similar to what I meant to ask about coral colors.

It's my understanding that corals consume both nitrate/phosphate & dissolved organics, but if to much in water column it becomes a irritant to them. Is this true?

Boomer
10/08/2009, 11:51 AM
It is more on they do not grow right as it reduces the preicp of aragonite which builds the skeleton.

DW

I would tent to agree on you theory but really have no clue as to why vodka does this for some and not others. However, if you look at the Zeovit systems, which are low nutrient systems, the colors are really bright. However, they are feed bacteria and is part of the reason behind cleaning the zeovit media on a regular bases.

eggiel
10/08/2009, 02:45 PM
The pale colors on some zeovit system specialy european tanks is do more to there lighting thay use more of whiter bulbs and not blue spectrums

I have been testing this and color has change on my zeo tank with the same parameters same feeding just change bulbs from a blue to more white

Less blue spectrum to impulse growth and had more growth and more of the pale color

DW302 I will just give it a lilltle more time and watch the colors on the corals

Test if you could feed more and your scrubber could handle the waste color should come back in time
I dont now if your scruubber is also streeping elements in water that could be something good to cheack also

DeathWish302
10/08/2009, 03:29 PM
DW302 I will just give it a lilltle more time and watch the colors on the corals

Test if you could feed more and your scrubber could handle the waste color should come back in time
I dont now if your scruubber is also streeping elements in water that could be something good to cheack also

I know NOTHING in this hobby happens fast except very bad things, so I'll wait before I dump some additives in.

I'm slowly ramping my coral foods up from once every 3-4 nights to once every 1-2 days. I have cyclopeeze, daphnia & plankton mixed in my normal clown frozen mix so some is sure to make it to the corals, but not the larger qty as on coral feeding nights. I have found that at least half of the acros go nuts when I feed Ocean Nutrition Reef Flake.

I'm not really certain how the algae may affect the elements in the water. I have never added trace elements, as I've always read that WC are an adequate import method. I do a daily 1% WC for this reason, some (as E. Borneman) report they haven't done planned WC in forever. I have read that Morgan from Inland Aquatics has noted excessive drops in trace elments from excessive scrubbing. I would consider I scrub extensively with a 16hour photoperiod.

It could also be that Eric has a much more complex biotope than I do. I'm starting to wonder if maybe a dedicated 'fuge may not create some plankton that could be beneficial. I have huge colonies of Collinista snails, Cirratulid (hair worm) & Eurythoe complanata (common bristle worm) worms, unidentified mini brittle starfish (~1" dia.) & several Acoel flatworms. The flatworms definitely died off quickly after the addition of the skimmer, but a few still surviving in the sump.

There is just too many hypothesis' I would like to explore.... Oh so much to do and so little time! This hobby is turning into a way of life.

Mike O'Brien
10/08/2009, 03:34 PM
A skimmer cannot remove nitrates & phosphates in the water column. This is where a scrubber or carbon dosing is used to accelerate the usage rate of nitrate/phosphate to limit algae/cyano growth.


That's true for directly, but it absolutely does, just indirectly. Santa Monica just stresses the directly part to make it sound like skimmers can't do it, but they actually do.

DeathWish302
10/08/2009, 03:40 PM
That's true for directly, but it absolutely does, just indirectly. Santa Monica just stresses the directly part to make it sound like skimmers can't do it, but they actually do.

I agree and stand corrected....skimmers remove the particulate matter (such as food which will leech phosphate) and dissolved organics BEFORE they can breakdown in the nitrogen cycle to create nitrate.

SM is a little too pushy on the Turf Scrubber for me.... I found articles from IA and others' more beneficial whn performing my research. JMHO.

eggiel
10/08/2009, 04:37 PM
Yes water changes put mostly back of the elements needed Thats why i preffer weekly water changes then monthly. plus it doesnt strees out the corals
Testing is the best way you could find out what your corals like more thats why you should feed weekly and test and at the end of the week and see how your scrubber is taking care of the excesse of nutrients
Direct feed every coral as posiible so your sure they are getting there food special LPS

mesocosm
10/08/2009, 07:49 PM
Greetings All !



... I'm in the mindset less technology and complex additives and more biology. ...Nice ... :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


... So what are you bio-types doing?I don't know what "bio-types" are doing, but as a crazed & twisted biologist, I'm trying to do the following (in order of priority):


(1) Select the "best" DNA pigmentation coding available.

As someone who used to purchase corals for retail sales, and who is currently employed by an importer in Southern California, let me assure folks of something that oftentimes goes overlooked in reefkeeping discussion boards ... not all coral pigmentation genetic predisposition (DNA) is created equal. There are significant variations in the genetic coding for coral pigmentation within a given species, for a variety of reasons. The corals that hit the retail marketplaces of Japan and Europe oftentimes express "superior" coloration, compared with the North American marketplace, because their coloration is superior. No combination of hardware toys, nor husbandry mastery, nor nutrient manipulation is capable of converting grade A specimens into ultra grade specimens.


(2) Optimize the physical parameters for the coral host & zooxanthellae.

Temperature, flow, lighting (if required), and space variables must all fall within the 'optimal' range in order to ellicit optimal coloration. Healthy coral hosts, and productive zooxanthellae populations, are prerequisite to rich pigment expression. Physical parameters, inorganic chemistry, and organic chemistry variables must all fall within the 'optimal' range in order to ellicit optimal coloration.


(3) Optimize the inorganic chemistry for both the coral host & zooxanthellae nutrition.

The concentrations (... and fluctuations ...) of alkalinity, calcium, bicarbonate, and both major & minor elements must all fall within the 'optimal' range in order to ellicit optimal coloration. Healthy coral hosts, and productive zooxanthellae populations, are prerequisite to rich pigment expression. Physical parameters, inorganic chemistry, and organic chemistry variables must all fall within the 'optimal' range in order to ellicit optimal coloration.


(4) Optimize the N:P ratio for both the coral host & zooxanthellae nutrition.

Both the coral host, and its symbiotic zooxanthellae are able to utilize dissolved organic compounds directly from the water column. The coral host is able to capture both particulates and prey, and its zooxanthellae produce photosynthates. While the set of dissolved organics, particulates, and prey items is extensive, balancing them together to an optimal N:P ratio (... through a combination of hardware selections, husbandry choices, and livestock selection ...) is prerequisite to optimal coloration.


(5) Train eyes & brain to function as a penultimate assessment machine.

Once concepts 1 through 4 are in place, there is simply no substitute for hands-on husbandry experience. But mastery is achieved only through thoughtful experience ... and sometimes painful & expensive failure. Read & digest everything you can find on the subject of "reefkeeping" (preferably on a more advanced level than what is typically presented in most discussion boards. Yep, that means books & research articles ... sorry). Invest the time & money to test & record all of the relevant chemical parameters your reef ecosystem presents so that the association between what you're observing, and what is going on both physically & biochemically, is both rational and objective ...

... Unlike so many of the correlations we read online. :lol: ;)


These are the basics, and they have very little to do with the trendiest LED lighting hardware, the current flavor of the month of over-hyped, mind-numbingly over-priced protein skimmer technology, or ill-defined proprietary supplement formulae. After ... and only after ... these basics have been mastered, you will have become competent enough to safely follow some of us into the Land of C:N:P Ratio Manipulation & Coloration Tweaking.




Some of the things I'm doing with regards to coloration tweaking:


(A) Chemically altering the C:N:P ratio to manipulate zooxanthellae density.

Without getting lost in either the optics, psychology of Human color perception, or the variance of computer monitor quality ... zooxanthellae density within the coral host's tissue(s) exerts a profound effect on how a dizzying suite of pigments fluoresce, and reflect & refract light back to the Human eye (... to be perceived as 'coloration'). The most fundamental, basic reason that carbon dosing strategies impact perceived coloration is that properly applied carbon dosing lowers zooxanthellae density such that pigments that were previously "screened" can be "seen". The mechanism by which this is achieved is by direct manipulation of the C:N:P of the system's water column. That's it ... nothing wildly complex ... and not without the introduction of a new set of risk variables.

BTW ... this is certainly nothing either revolutionary, or new. Master reefkeepers have been manipulating their system's C:N:P ratio for decades, but rather than by direct chemical supplementation they've been doing it indirectly with an extended lag time with filtration component selections, husbandry practice choices, and feeding regiments.


(B) Enhanced radiation spectra (lighting)

T5 lighting & emergent LED hardware (... once the Chinese get better at specific diode emission spectrum options ...) presents the reefkeeper with a range of radiation spectra exposure combinations that have never been available before. We've been seriously toying around with various T5 bulb combinations for over a year where I work ... after clearing away zooxanthellae "interference" I've been more than a little surprised at the quality & variety of pigmentation expression. LEDs hold the same potential.

BTW ... this too is nothing new. Historically we've used fluorescents, then combinations of fluorescents, then halides, and then halide & fluorescent combinations. What's happening now with T5s & LEDs is merely the next step in the progression.


(C) Quenching & Excitation

Suffice it to say that quenching and excitation are the fundamental mechanisms underlying the effect(s) of several of the current proprietary coloration supplements. Certainly these mechanisms in play with the Tropic Marin cation & anion supplements, with regards to coloration. Briefly ... it turns out that exposure to certain ions can cause a conformational shift in some fluorescent proteins (the protein's structure "bends"). This shift can either "diminish" the way that the protein fluoresces (quenching), or it can "enrich" the way that the protein fluoresces (excitation) ... apologies to the biomedical researchers out there who are currently laughing at my over-simplifications.

It is also perhaps worth pointing out that there is no evidence ... none whatsover ... that any of the various proprietary supplements that are currently available do anything that directly increases the rate at which coral pigments are synthesized. The logic that adding a supplement must be causing an increase in pigment synthesis because deeper, richer coloration is observed ... is fatally flawed & indefensible.

BTW, it may well turn out that the critics of such supplements who complained of the coloration that is produced as being "un-natural" may have been more correct than they even knew. Even so, I'll take the color shifts that are stimulated every day of the week, and twice on Sunday. I'm with Huxley on this ... Give me more. The coloration shifts that I've repeatedly reproduced through chemical supplementation are real ... and the thousands who've done the same are not hallucinating. Read. Digest what you read. You'll connect the dots. If you're interested in the technical science behind my babbling, please refer to the bibliographies in Dana Riddle's exquisite series of articles on coral pigments in Advanced Aquarist Online.


[mesocosm ranting ends] ... [all clear siren sounds] ... out. :D


JMO ... HTH.
:thumbsup:

DeathWish302
10/08/2009, 08:39 PM
Understand completely (ok...98.5%). I read Riddle's articles thi evening and will likely reread to further digest. Thanks for the detailed 'in-a-nut-shell' response. Helps clear up what I was hypothesizing as my next move. Off to plan my attack of the N:P ratio.....

Thanks Again! I always appreciate ranting, as it sparks deeper thought and brainstorming for methods to improve a situation.

kaskiles
10/09/2009, 06:19 AM
(4) Optimize the N:P ratio for both the coral host & zooxanthellae nutrition.

What would anyone out there suggest the optimal N:P ratio would be? 10:1? Is it the same as what is measured on a dead phytoplankton cell?


(A) Chemically altering the C:N:P ratio to manipulate zooxanthellae density.
...that properly applied carbon dosing lowers zooxanthellae density such that pigments that were previously "screened" can be "seen". The mechanism by which this is achieved is by direct manipulation of the C:N:P of the system's water column.

Is the organic carbon addition reducing the available N and P to the corals' zoox, thereby reducing the zoox density?

Or, is the organic carbon directly feeding the coral host, thereby reducing the corals' reliance upon it's zoox. (the coral would somehow produce materials that would inhibit the zoox growth/density)?

eggiel
10/09/2009, 06:28 AM
I think the ratio is 16:1
The organic carbon addition reduces the available N and P in the water clumn thereby reducing the zoox density directly in the coral

eggiel
10/09/2009, 06:29 AM
Sorry for the double post

mesocosm
10/09/2009, 07:45 AM
Greetings All !


... the ratio is 16:1 ... Nope ... this is from the Redfield Ratio which is concerned with phytoplankton. The research literature regarding N:P ratios for optimum bacterial metabolic functioning documents an annoyingly wide range of numbers. Depending the bacterial strains involved, and the prevailing environmental conditions, optimal bacterial N:P ratios have been shown to range from 5:1 to 60:1 .

And I'm not going to be at all surprised when future research demonstrates an even wider range ... :lol:


HTH
:thumbsup:

DeathWish302
10/09/2009, 08:05 AM
Greetings All !


Nope ... this is from the Redfield Ratio which is concerned with phytoplankton. The research literature regarding N:P ratios for optimum bacterial metabolic functioning documents an annoyingly wide range of numbers. Depending the bacterial strains involved, and the prevailing environmental conditions, optimal bacterial N:P ratios have been shown to range from 5:1 to 60:1 .

And I'm not going to be at all surprised when future research demonstrates an even wider range ... :lol:


HTH
:thumbsup:

What are some of the stated 'optimal' levels in ppm? I understand the ratio is important, but it is difficult to know what is truly meant when a ratio is provided. My P is undetectable (I'll say >0.01ppm), so N could be 0.05ppm and be considered the optimal ratio. Yet I know that this initial level is not optimal as I would not have started this thread if so. Before the corals made the color shift, N was ~2.5ppm. Should I consider this as my starting point to achieve? I know that only experimentation will reveal the results, but I like to hear other opinions on these advanced subjects.

Thanks for listening to my rambling.:D

eggiel
10/09/2009, 08:11 AM
Mesocosm

so it will be depending of the carbon thats freeing of the bacteria consumers or exsistent the tank
to now the exact rate of N:P

mesocosm
10/09/2009, 08:30 AM
Greetings All !



... Is the organic carbon addition reducing the available N and P to the corals' zoox, thereby reducing the zoox density? ... Labile carbon sources stimulate bacterial growth, which lowers the available N & P in the aquarium's water column. Lowered N & P levels in the water column reduces the N & P available to be transported to zooxanthellae within the coral host, so ...

... yes. :D



... Or, is the organic carbon directly feeding the coral host, thereby reducing the corals' reliance upon it's zoox. ... Photosynthetic corals are mixotrophic ... they acquire organic carbon from the photosynthates produced by zooxanthellae, from the transport of elements & compounds across their tissues (although this is not a major component of a photosynthetic coral's energy budget), and from the capture & digestion ("feeding") of particulates & prey. A coral's metabolic & behavioral response to meet its energy budget needs does indeed shift in response to a changing zooxanthellae density.

It might also be noted that the utilization of organic carbon differs depending on its source:

Photosynthates --> metabolism
"Feeding" --> Growth & reproduction

It is no accident that nutrients to nourish corals must be supplemented into carbon dosed systems as zooxanthellae density is reduced. On another tangent, there's some evidence suggesting that corals make an effort to maintain a stable zooxanthellae density in non-stressed conditions. See ...

Regulation and control of intracellular algae (= zooxanthellae) in hard corals.
R. J. Jones, D. Yellowlees
Philosophical Transactions: Biological Sciences, Volume 352, Number 1352, April 29, 1997

BTW, thanks to solbby for his discussion of this a few years ago ... :thumbsup:



For anyone looking to learn more about the coral-zooxanthellae relationship, this may be of interest
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showpost.php?p=65447&postcount=20



... (the coral would somehow produce materials that would inhibit the zoox growth/density)?Corals manipulate their zooxanthellae density primarily by the mechanism of 'zooxanthellae expulsion'. Chemical inhibition is not a primary mechanism.



HTH
:thumbsup:

HighlandReefer
10/09/2009, 02:40 PM
Mesocosm,

How does the bacterial population within the mucal layers of coral play into this equation? Bacteria will be able to utilize whatever form of carbon becomes available.

I have read in one article which states that increased DOM (simple sugars included) in the water column can stimulate additional populations of coral zooxanthellae & bacteria which they felt caused problems (coral mortality).

This is an example of one article I read:

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and
microbial activity in coral mortality
http://phage.sdsu.edu/research/pdf/Kline%20-%20DOC%20and%20coral%20death%205-24-06.pdf

takayan
10/09/2009, 04:55 PM
I dosed TM Reef Actif which might be C source in my SPS tank. After a couple of days, one of my Acro was bleached out. In addition of Actif, I dose Start2 everyday, so it might be too much C source which is too much DOC. Any comments?

Mike O'Brien
10/09/2009, 06:10 PM
So why does vodka dosing create a similar color loss condition in some cases if the bacteria population increases from feeding a carbon source? I'm guessing the corals are specialized feeders on specific surface bacteria and not the bacteria population driven by the carbon dosing? Just trying to find ways to have higher coral 'food' w/o causing the cyano war to erupt again....

I think that when you dose something like that you have no control over which bacteria is going to benefit. I'm sure it would eventually change the dynamics of everything. And who knows if that bacteria is going to be eaten by the coral. They may eat it and spit it back out basically, or they may lose control over their own surface bacteria populations. Also with a good skimmer running, the stuff won't be around long anyway.

cutnup
10/10/2009, 04:27 PM
get some powerbrites and be done with it...

DeathWish302
10/10/2009, 09:23 PM
get some powerbrites and be done with it...

What exactly will a light change fix? Did you even read the thread?

luther1200
10/10/2009, 09:44 PM
The coral can feed on zooxanthellae and various other foods.

The corals don't feed on the Zooanthellae, the Zooanthellae live within the corals tissue, and produce basically sugars for the coral. But the coral doesn't actually feed on (eat) the Zooanthellae itself.