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catman78
10/08/2009, 09:22 AM
Hi All,

Been dosing Vodka only for around 4 months.
Tank Specs 120 TECh series:
100 gallons net system mixed reef , 5 fish in total, 2 tangs < 5"
4-5 DSB
1 year old.

Nitrates were 25-30 at start of dosing.
Starting amount was recommendation from Genetics article article on Vodka Dosing.

As of last three weeks I cannot get Nitrates below 5 ppm while increasing by .5 ml per week.
Now up to 7ml daily.

Should I continue increasing by .5 ml per week.
Salifert and API test kits being used. Both read similar, altough each are quite difficult to determine levels below 5 ppm.

Is it possible nitrates will NEVER get to undetectable.

BTW, No Cyno issues.

Thanks in advance.
Mark

Billybeau1
10/08/2009, 02:50 PM
7 ml seems like a lot to me. I would probably cut back some.

Is your skimmer working at its peak capacity ?

Forget the API for low range testing. It is impossible to read at levels below 40 ppm or so.

If your tank looks good and everything is growing well, I probably wouldn't get obsessed on getting it much lower. Especially if you are not having any microalgae issues. It may be lower than 5 ppm already. :)

catman78
10/08/2009, 03:57 PM
Billybeau1

I thought 7ml was getting kinda high.
Tank looks great corals doing fine.

I'm running a Deltec APF600, I think it's rated 180 w/a heavy bioload.
I clean it cup every 2 days and clean pump once a month.

What level do you think I cut back to?
Can I cut back all at once or gradually?

Thanks
Mark

Billybeau1
10/09/2009, 06:13 AM
I'm just starting to play with this vodka thing myself so these are only "gut" feelings.

I would cut the dosage in half for one week and check your nitrate level after seven days. If it goes up, ramp it up a little more. If it stays the same (which I think it will), then you are safer for the ware.

If you decide to cut back, I would do it all at once. :)

tmz
10/09/2009, 11:23 AM
I've been dosing 24ml to 550g( less than half a mil per 10 g) along with 2 ml of vinegar for 9 months fwiw. Nitrates hang at between 2.5ppm and 5ppmSalifert) in this raltively high bioload system. With moderate gfo use it maintains PO4 sub .05 ppm( hanah colorimeter). I don't consider 5 ppm NO3 a major issue but would like it a bit lower.

NexDog
10/10/2009, 08:29 AM
24ml - holy shiiiiit.

tmz
10/10/2009, 06:40 PM
24ml - holy shiiiiit.

Don't get your meaning. 24ml for 550g is relatively moderate if not on the lowside.

NexDog
10/10/2009, 06:58 PM
So I have a long way to go on my 450g total volume? Currently dosing 6ml.

tmz
10/10/2009, 07:52 PM
You may need less or more depending on your system. The thread starter.catman78, is using 7ml per 100g compared to my dose of 4.4ml per 100, for example.Seems like we'd both have to go higher to get O ppm nitrate and I'm not confident that's worth the extra organic carbon.

NexDog
10/10/2009, 09:22 PM
I'm at 4 for nitrates but PO4 always creeps up fast. I knocked it down to zero about 3 months and it's back to 1 again. I dosed Phosphate Control to kill it again but clearly it's leeching. I guess I'll keep plodding along. Think I'll increase by 1ml per week from now.

tmz
10/10/2009, 09:42 PM
Is phosphate control a liquid ( lanthanum chloride) type control. If so you need to filter that stuff very carefully.

NexDog
10/10/2009, 10:10 PM
Yah, it's exactly that. Best phosphate control solution out there. I hate GFO, just another piece of equipment to look after.

Genetics
10/11/2009, 11:18 AM
Personally, I would not shoot for zero. After figuring in test kit error, you are probably as low as you can go with utilization of the vodka method. Pushing more in may not be beneficial but may start becoming problematic as the dosing amounts rise.

reefnjunkie
10/11/2009, 11:28 AM
After killing of some livestock as well as one spendy fish attempting to Vodka dosing I am for certainnot an advocate.
I understand now it was most likely due to the skimmer not functioning perfectly and as a result Ilost about 350.00 worth of "stuff"

Long story short, I added Purigen by Seachem and after 3 weeks my NO3 is at about .02ppm. I put it into a micron bag, put the bag in my filter sock from that is draining from my display and forget about it.

I am now feeding sometimes twice a day. Iwent 5 weeks doing this and no water changes, it was an experiment on the water changes. I'm back to 20% every other week for the trace elements.

Had I heard about the Purigen earlier and how easy it is, I would never had tried Vodka Dosing. With Dosing Vodka, if everything is dilaed in it works fine, Your skimmer fails, you risk losing everything possibly.

The cons out weigh the pros especially when I can achieve the same goal.

I run a phosphate reactor so PO4 is less than .01 (hanna meter) and NO3 less than .02 like I mentioned.

Food for thought

reefnjunkie
10/11/2009, 11:31 AM
Oh and before the addition to the Purigen my NO3 was running 20-25 ppm with a 25% water change every other week.

So I can tell you it works in my tank-not sure why my results would not be the same for everyone-sure wish I would have known about it earlier-

Just wanted to reduce the NO3 not kill off part of my tank

baldwinaquaman
10/11/2009, 11:58 PM
Byrd, can you clarify your point? And also, I'm considering this vodka dosing for a fowlr, anyone tried it, and also anyone have any other input on the purigen?

reefnjunkie
10/12/2009, 08:14 AM
Sorry for it not being clear.

I tried vodka dosing using the guideline found online, this is the article, and I even dosed on the side of caution when determining my water volume volume. I also did the twice a day method as the article said that would be best;

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php


At day 7 I had a giant Maxima Clam die, and corals were looking "different" so I stopped, day 8 my Bellas Angel died.

I have to lean towards my skimmer not working as well as needed, since the artcle mentions a good skimmer is a must-which I have so it could have been something else. Dosing has more potential for bad things than good-IMO, if your goal is to reduce Nitrates.

I stumbled across a thread that mentioned Seachems "purigen", I tried it and am still using it. I feed daily and last water change was 2 weeks although before that I wanted to see how long I could go without a change. After day 30 I figure I would do a change for the trace elements, not because my NO3 was high, its still was .01ppm. I do supplement Iodine, mag, strontium, and add coral vite.
My NO3 is still at .01ppm using Salifert test, I keep a log of all water parameters and the Purigen has maintained near zero NO3.

With the Puirgen, I add it to a micron bag put the bag in the filter sock in my sump, and FORGET about it.

I dont have to worry about , dosing EVERY single day, dosing to much, is my skimmer working, why are some corals browning-All the crap that CAN go wrong with dosing.

Maybe you get lucky and it works, maybe you dont get lucky and it does not.
Forget about luck, people dose and it works for them, they understand it could just as easily not work, or something could al off a sunden change and things die- When you weigh the pros and cons of dosing versus Purigen-for me it is hands down a no brainer.

Anyway that was my experiance with dosing and now I have something that gives me the same thing I was seeking for by dosing;

NEAR zero NO3 .01ppm pretty close to 0:D

Dosing does allow you to visit your tank's sump EVERY SINGLE DAY though -LOL

reefnjunkie
10/12/2009, 08:23 AM
Byrd, can you clarify your point? And also, I'm considering this vodka dosing for a fowlr, anyone tried it, and also anyone have any other input on the purigen?

I got to ask, what is the purpose or your goal by vodka dosing? If it is a reduction in NO3, look into the purigen-google it, spend some time doing research-if you like to experiment-thats somethng different.
IMO vodka goes in a glass with mixer-not a sump-depending on your goal.

The only thing I have surmized vodka dosing does is a reduction in NO3 and PO4.

My Phosban reactor has my PO4 at .02 and has been there for months, and purigen has NO3 at .01- All my kits are Salifert

here is a FTS from about 3 weeks ago-

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk114/Byrdman503/P1080433.jpg

tmz
10/12/2009, 08:26 AM
Purigen is a very good product in my experience; not much of a direct NO3 remover though . It removes organic material before it degrades to nitrate much the same as granulated activated carbon(gac) does.Perhaps slightly different organics are attracted to it than gac I use them both and dose vodka too. .

Sorry to hear about your fish.

reefnjunkie
10/12/2009, 08:47 AM
Purigen is a very good product in my experience; not much of a direct NO3 remover though.

I have read that by not using "enough" Purigen (not sure what that exactly means-LOL perhaps the manufacturers "out") that you wont see the NO3 reduction. There is plenty of reading out there to support adding a bit more than recommended-you can not overdose.



Losing livestock goes with the territory, or "the risk" of losing...-It was the GTD Maxima that was difficult to replace-but I have.

All I had to go by is what I had, what I did and what changed. I had someone else mention that they were not aware of the NO3 reduction, but I just googled "Purigen reviews" and found quite a bit that mentioned reduction in NO3.
I had to assume it was the Purigen, at one point week in and week out for moinths my NO3 was 20-25 with 20% water changes every two weeks faithfully. Added Purigen and NO3 is .01.

With nothing else being done and all things still constant, I had to come to the conclusion it was the purigen, not sure how I could figure other wise.

I know people vodake dose and I'm glad it works for them, still depending on "why" they dose is a different thing-I got lucky and ahve something that fail safe-IMO, the PO4 reactor and the Purigen-no looking back for me:D

Billybeau1
10/12/2009, 10:05 AM
Byrd, Purigen can not remove NO<sub>3</sub> from the water column. Not to the extent that we need it to anyways. Nitrate absorbers rarely work in seawater. Exporting via a good skimmer and harvesting macroalgae are the best methods IMO. Nitrate needs to be removed.

It also helps to adjust your feeding schedule to help eliminate the excessive nitrate in the first place. :)

reefnjunkie
10/12/2009, 11:34 AM
its an anomoly then-LOL, you may have mis-read my feeding schedule.

My "new" feeding schedule is a result of having my NO3 at .01. Prior to that it was 20-25ppm and I fed every 3rd day.

All I know is after 6 months of the same (ie water changes, feeding schedule, supplements etc) day in and out, I add Purigen and my NO3 is where it is now.

My deductive thought process is simple-Whats new? The addition of the Purigen. I have read others say the same as you and I have read others that have had the results I speak of.
So I can read what you tell me, like all the other things I read and then try to deduce what is correct. Based onmy results I dont now what else I can attribute the reduction in.

For shoots and giggles, I should pull the bag of Purigen and see what happens-That should prove something would you agree?? I'ld lean towards my NO3 going back to where it was-
Whatcha think?

Thats what so "odd" about this hobby, TMI-just cant seem to find those black and white ansers. Which I undestand as each testing enviroment s different-there is no constant-per se

Billybeau1
10/12/2009, 12:28 PM
I agree with you on one thing. If you see it, it is real. I always say the eyes are the best test kit.

I can't explain it yet but if you believe and you see results, keep it going. You very well may be right, or there could be another underlying cause for what you see. I just know the chemical make up of Purigen should not remove nitrates. ;)

Good luck to you. :)

reefnjunkie
10/12/2009, 03:59 PM
I agree with you on one thing. If you see it, it is real. I always say the eyes are the best test kit.

I can't explain it yet but if you believe and you see results, keep it going. You very well may be right, or there could be another underlying cause for what you see. I just know the chemical make up of Purigen should not remove nitrates. ;)

Good luck to you. :)

I only see the test kits results, I am not visualizing anything else, or at least that is not my point, the point was and I will keep it short
I had NO3 at 25, added purigen NO3 .01-everything else remained constant.
Deductive reasoining suggests it was the purigen. I had those high levels for months, not a spike, not a fluke- months.
I make one simple change-NO3 are gone (nearly).

I mentioned what you said when I ran down to grab a few monti frags, we grabbed the bottled and it says right on the label "removes organic waste", thats when the shop owner asks me
"what are nitrates", I said "dont ask me I'm just passing along what I had read".

So I ask what are Nitrates-his implication was they are organic waste, at least thats how I understood his reply.

We have two opinions here, but I am very curious now. I just pulled the bag of Purigen and tested NO3, its at .01 maybe less-Salifert test.
I'll keep doing everything exactly the same, feeding daily, everything.
I will start a new thread so not to take this off topic.

The thread will be called
Purigen-NO3 remover-fact or fiction.
Tag along

Brad

reefnjunkie
10/12/2009, 04:56 PM
After some thought, I realize it is not worth the stress to the tank just to support a therory that -IMO has been proved , at lease at my level.

Good luck to the "dosers" out there, it does work and sometimes IF it does not go as planned-things die.

Here's some reviews and reading
I see the reply mentioning organic versus non organic-got to love the LFS guy-glad I was nuetral;

http://www.3reef.com/forums/product-review-archives/seachem-purigen-31956.html

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/seachem/61580-purigen-nitrates.html

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-32868.html

I'm exhausted, and know alot more than 8 hours ago-LOL

Good luck all

tmz
10/13/2009, 12:05 AM
Nitrate is not an organic.An organic contains hydrogen and carbon . There is no H or C in NO3. As stated earlier, purigen is is a nice product for removing some organic materials which otherwise might eventually breakdown to nitrate. So is granulated activated carbon. I use both.
Deduction is nice but NO3 will simply not bind to purigen and purigen will not reduce existing NO3 levels. It may prevent some NO3 from forming. Heterotrophic bacteria breakdown nitrate. They use the O in NO3 for energy and leave harmless nitrogen gas.
Glad it works for you but other systems with different bioloads may require the boost to bacterial activity that carbon dosing provides.Likely by using it your water became cleaner(less soluble an insoluble organics) and produced less NO3 allowing the bacteria you do have to adequately reduce the nitrate in your tank particularly with reduced feeding.

This is from the purigen product description:

"Purigen is a macro-porous, synthetic polymer that removes proteins and a broad spectrum of organics... Controls ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, by removing nitrogenous organic waste materials."