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vegaskid11
10/14/2009, 05:28 PM
I am arriving late to the carbon party but have arrived none the less.

I will be following Genetics guidelines to start vodka dosing.:bounce3:

For MB7 I started the initial dosing of that on monday per the instructions which have a 2 week period of 5 ml per 25 gallons. Thats 100ml of MB7 (500gallons) for two weeks then drop to the maintenance dose of 5ml per 50 gallons.

My question is in regards to the MB7 from Brightwell and the recent suggestions that using this product for two weeks prior to starting the vodka will help build up bacteria and prevent a possible cyano outbreak when the carbon is introduced.

What are some thoughts on this two week build up prior to starting the vodka? Also, what are the thoughts on a permanent dosing schedule using MB7 and vodka.

Thanks

bertoni
10/15/2009, 12:17 AM
Bacterial populations can come and go rather rapidly, so I'm skeptical that it's possible to "build up" a population in this fashion. I haven't done any carbon dosing, so I can't help on your other question.

Genetics
10/15/2009, 09:06 AM
I'm unsure of the dynamics with the bacterial species and how they would "build up". There are many getting great results with the two however. So I would recommend getting in contact with SunnyX on his dosing schedule as it seems to be working well.

silentscream
10/15/2009, 09:23 AM
I've been using SunnyX's program for about 3 months with success and no occurances of cyanobacteria. However I've never used vodka by itself, so I have nothing to compare the "Sunny nation program" to. I agree with Genetics, talking to SunnyX is your best bet. However, if you read through his entire build thread, you will have earned a PhD in MB7/vodka dosing.

vegaskid11
10/15/2009, 11:15 AM
OK thanks for the input guys. I found sunnys thread so I will read through it. :bounce1:

Jar*Head
10/15/2009, 11:28 AM
I never have luck with Vodka and MB7. I have been dosing MB7 since Apr 09 with good result along with the Biofuel but when i jump the fence and get to the Vodka that is when the trouble start.

When i first introduce Vodka into my 700g system i notice Cyano outbreak even though i only add 4ml daily for one week period. So i have to stop the dosing till the Cyano went away. Took a months with continuous water change to get rid of them.

Couple months later i start it back up with 2ml daily and this time it got worse then before even though my NO3 is not detectable (Elos NO3 kit) and PO4 is .08.

I know there are many people getting great result with Vodka and MB7. My statement is base on my personal experience...

Randy Holmes-Farley
10/15/2009, 11:35 AM
So i have to stop the dosing till the Cyano went away. Took a months with continuous water change to get rid of them.


FWIW, I have the sense from my dosing that vinegar is less likely to drive cyano than is vodka. Perhaps that is just the species of cyano that I have, or maybe it is just coincidence, or maybe partly related to stopped iron dosing, but I now dose both vinegar (plus lime) and vodka and cyano has declined relative to previous dosing of vodka only.

vegaskid11
10/15/2009, 03:50 PM
Well from what I have read, it seems that the consesus in sunnys thread is that running MB7 for a two week period will help to build up enough (good) bacteria so that when the excess carbon is introduced it will be able to out compete the cyano.

My system is in the 500 gallon range so once I start the vodka I will see how it goes. If I start getting a bacterial bloom like Jar Head then I may try the vinegar as Randy has done.

It seems the key is that everyones tank will react differently to excess carbon introduction so monitoring and making adjustments may be needed in dialing in each specific set-up and the final maintenance dose.

Should be fun.

vegaskid11
10/15/2009, 03:51 PM
dp...

Jar*Head
10/15/2009, 04:57 PM
One of my friend told me that the Cyano will go away as you continue dosing Vodka... But i am not brave enough to keep on dosing and hope it will work itself out :D. I am going to have my Ozone and U.V up and running this weekend so no more dosing anything except water change, carbon and GFO...

SunnyX
10/16/2009, 06:45 PM
I've been using SunnyX's program for about 3 months with success and no occurances of cyanobacteria. However I've never used vodka by itself, so I have nothing to compare the "Sunny nation program" to. I agree with Genetics, talking to SunnyX is your best bet. However, if you read through his entire build thread, you will have earned a PhD in MB7/vodka dosing.


"Sonny Nation" :lol:

So i have to stop the dosing till the Cyano went away. Took a months with continuous water change to get rid of them.


FWIW, I have the sense from my dosing that vinegar is less likely to drive cyano than is vodka. Perhaps that is just the species of cyano that I have, or maybe it is just coincidence, or maybe partly related to stopped iron dosing, but I now dose both vinegar (plus lime) and vodka and cyano has declined relative to previous dosing of vodka only.

Great idea! I may have to give that a shot. I have been wanting to experiment with other carbon sources for a while now. You may be on to something with the different strains of cyano. Perhaps this is why some people have cyano issues, while the majority of reefers do not.

Great call Randy! :thumbsup:

NexDog
10/17/2009, 09:43 AM
Been dosing Vodka slowly. Thinking about adding Vinegar and Sugar but not so sure on the ratio. Say I dose 10ml vodka, how much Vinegar, and if adding sugar how many teaspoons of sugar to I disolve per Xml and how much of that do I add in ratio. Etc, etc.

obiwanthegoby
10/17/2009, 09:46 AM
Been dosing Vodka slowly. Thinking about adding Vinegar and Sugar but not so sure on the ratio. Say I dose 10ml vodka, how much Vinegar, and if adding sugar how many teaspoons of sugar to I disolve per Xml and how much of that do I add in ratio. Etc, etc.

This is from an article I read on glassbox...

200ml of vodka
50ml of vinegar
1.5 tbsp of sugar

They adjusted the amounts according to the effects they saw in the tank.... and came up with the above for the starting line. here's the link to the article

http://glassbox-design.com/2008/achieved-through-observation-and-experimentation/

~Obi

jennmac415
10/17/2009, 06:33 PM
how do you determine how much of this VSV mixture to dose per day??

obiwanthegoby
10/17/2009, 07:47 PM
Read the article I believe it discusses that. But other wise... Read this as a guide line...

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

NexDog
10/17/2009, 09:17 PM
Posted in another thread but might get a better answer here;

How do you dissolve the sugar into the Vodka and Vinegar? Say I have 200ml Vodka and 50ml of Vinegar I'll have to either heat up the Vodka and Vinegar to dissolve the sugar or dissolve it in water which dilutes the solution....

vegaskid11
10/17/2009, 10:38 PM
I was wondering the same thing after I read that link where they are adding VSV to a mixture and dosing all at once. They say they dose .2ml from this stock of like 200ml vodka, 50 ml vinegar and some sugar. Seems convenient, if its possible to get a consistent dosage. Im not sure how it will all dissolve evenly throughout the solution.

Reefer08
10/21/2009, 03:31 AM
Ive been dosing vodka now for 3 months, and I NEVER got cyanobacteria.

Ive overdosed my tank with vodka twice. Both times I noticed a slimy white stringy stuff in the sump and filter socks would get clogged quick. I reduced my dosage and in a few days it went away. Never affected my fish nor corals.

Genetics
10/22/2009, 10:25 AM
So i have to stop the dosing till the Cyano went away. Took a months with continuous water change to get rid of them.


FWIW, I have the sense from my dosing that vinegar is less likely to drive cyano than is vodka. Perhaps that is just the species of cyano that I have, or maybe it is just coincidence, or maybe partly related to stopped iron dosing, but I now dose both vinegar (plus lime) and vodka and cyano has declined relative to previous dosing of vodka only.

This is a very interesting topic to discuss. People that have reported cyano problems with vodka have been able to avoid this issue by using another organic carbon molecule. Some have found sugar to work better, others with vitamin C or VSV (vinegar, sugar, vodka). What's interesting about this observation is people succeeding with some organics have complained cyano issues with others. Upon going back to what worked for them the cyano dissipated. Since it was discussed before organics started to be a more common additive to reef tanks it probably has gone unnoticed.

Randy, if vinegar is working better with cyano control you may also want to look into adding small amounts of sucrose, glucose, or vitamin C. I believe Highlandreefer was using only vinegar for awhile but was not happy with its addition alone.

NexDog and vegaskid11, the VSV mixture should mix with little issue. You may need to swirl the bottle a little while but otherwise it should dissolve evenly.

vegaskid11
10/22/2009, 10:57 AM
Thanks Genetics, thats good to know. That would deffinately make things easier. I imagine that before to long I will buy another pump for my litermeter and automate the carbon dosing.

Would you suggest sticking with the vodka only and seeing how it goes or just jump right into a VSV mix. Thanks again.

Genetics
10/22/2009, 11:42 AM
Vegaskid, I had no cyano issues with vodka alone. After some time I did notice my sps were becoming lighter and had to feed heavier to keep their colors. The amount I was able to feed was told to be rediculous but may explain my corals rapid growth. If you are having cyano issues with vodka only I would recommend going with VSV at this point and see how the cyano reacts. I tried VSVVc (vodka, glucose, vinegar, and vitamin c) and was happy with it until I noticed issues with cyano growth. Luckily it ended up in my sump after a treatment and I lived with that for awhile.

Randy Holmes-Farley
10/22/2009, 05:26 PM
Randy, if vinegar is working better with cyano control you may also want to look into adding small amounts of sucrose, glucose, or vitamin C. I believe Highlandreefer was using only vinegar for awhile but was not happy with its addition alone.

I do add vodka too, but what would I be hoping to happen if I dosed those additional carbon sources? Just avoiding potential future problems?

I have a truly huge amount of live rock relative to the display tank size (2 and half 44-gallon brute cans packed full, plus what is present in the 120 display), so that may make my system rather different than others.

vegaskid11
10/22/2009, 05:27 PM
OK Thanks, I have not started the vodka yet, monday will be V-day. I will plan on using just the vodka but will consider the others if I have any outbreaks. Thanks again

Genetics
10/24/2009, 10:56 AM
I do add vodka too, but what would I be hoping to happen if I dosed those additional carbon sources? Just avoiding potential future problems?


I don't think avoiding potential future problems will be of a concern. I dosed vodka for over a year without issues. When I started branching out with various organics I was looking for (1) a potential synergistic effect whereby using less organics to get the same net effect, (2) a means to potentially create diversification in bacteria that may help with growth.

Based on my non-scientific observations I really saw nothing to support the two questions above. However, I noticed vitamin C helped with zoanthid and LPS growth and with sugars (sucrose and glucose) some coloration changes but wasn't too impressed with them.

Randy Holmes-Farley
10/24/2009, 12:59 PM
and with sugars (sucrose and glucose) some coloration changes but wasn't too impressed with them.

What changes did you observe?

I saw some zooanthids turn tan to brown many years ago when I tried it with sucrose, but that's all.