S. Haddoni carpet anemone spawning??

[TEDALLEN80]

Couple of hours after lights out i like to just check on things. I stumble upon a very cloudy tank and see its coming from my new carpet anemone. This thing is smoking and spewing out a ton of stuff.

My questions are this...
1. is the carpet spawning?
2. if so, why? was it because of the recent transfer (orlando florida to tampa) or the new environment
3. I have a green haddoni also could this be a trigger for the spawn if its a spawn?
4. necessary steps to ensure corals stay alive?

so far i replaced my dual nextreef reactor with fresh carbon and debating on a water change but i ran out of salt. Ill pick some up friday. Should i do small water changes? a big one?

300g total volume system with sps lps rare chalices zoas and others and the carpet is 22"

please spill your thoughts

here's the pics:
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1455.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1462.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1470.jpg

[dalston]

It sure looks like it to me, I don't have much info on the reasons why, hopefully Todd will chime in as I know he experienced this with his blue haddoni.

I will say that the color of your anemone is amazing, a beautiful creature you have there.

[Fishy_Clown]

WOW !!!! Will be watching this thread very closely indeed...... awesome !

[puter]

It's not uncommon to have stress induced spawns. They rarely cause any significant problems in tanks with as much water volume as yours. You've hit on most of the things you can do: run your skimmer wet, add carbon, and do reasonable, careful, water changes. I'd just run the skimmer wet and prepare a couple small water changes. Everything should be fine.

Georgeous anemone! Is it a recent import?

[Toddrtrex]

Great looking Haddoni. Should pair it up with my blue one. ;)


And I am almost certain that it is a spawn. Looks very similar to when mine spawned (( though mine was stress induced )) Mine lasted for about 45 minutes, the tank was very cloudy but didn't have any issues from it.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/Hspawn2.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/Hspawn.jpg

[Toddrtrex]

I just noticed your questions -- oops.

As you can see from the picture above, I also have a green Haddoni in that tank, there was no reaction from it. All I was able to do was to change the carbon and empty the skimmer cup. A water change had to wait for 3 days.

All of my coral (( mainly SPS )) and clam were fine, same with the fish.

The reason I am almost certain that mine was stress reduced was that I was in the hospital for 5 days, and sometime during that my main pump stopped working. When I was released the temp was 71* and the SG was 1.030. It spawn the next day -- when I got the pump fixed.

[Flightpipe]

My green had a stressed induced spawn as well Toddrtrex is right on with all of his advise. I ran carbon and did a couple small WC's.

Very nice Haddoni!

[TEDALLEN80]

i picked the anemone up from a fellow hobbiest. Im sure its stress induced also. This was his first day in the tank. Today (friday) is day 2. System cleared up a little bit, but he still has a gaping mouth and shrunk down in size. I will not try and feed him for a couple more days or at least until his mouth goes back to normal and he starts to inflate more. I was up the majority of the night. This spawn lasted for 3 hours!!!

As far as the lighting he is under should be plenty to suffice 2x 250w 20k radiums.
Water parameters: sg 1.025-1.026 nitrate 0, phosphate .01 on hanna, ammonia 0, Magnesium 1345, calcium 440, alkalinity 10dkh, ph is about 8.0. temp 79-82 swing a degree about every 3-4 hours.

last night i also bumped the skimmer to run a little wet. Man does that sperm sure make the skimmer pull some skunk out of the water. Nice and oily it seems.

Thanks for the help so far guys i appreciate it alot :) :)

[Toddrtrex]

I wouldn't be surprised if it looks "off" for a while. I know that it took mine a while to get back to normal.

Also, I was looking at the pictures a bit closer... are the tentacles always that small? Granted haddonis tend to have smaller ones, but your seem smaller then they should be and a bit more sparse around the mouth then I normally see. What conditions was it under? While I normally don't recommend feeding all that often, might not be a bad idea to feed this one a bit more -- once a week, with small pieces.

[TEDALLEN80]

when i got him on wednesday, he was inflated. He was in an empty 125 but it was running, so i assume he was stressed before the move here. Not much history but he fed 4 silversides a week, and the nem has been in captivity for 2+ years

[TEDALLEN80]

ok today he has been deflated all the way with his mouth gaping all day. I lightly tapped his tentacled and he's sticky as hell.

[Zoanut]

Wow thats one amazing coloured Carpet you have there. I just brought my first one yesterday, he is only about 3 inches.

[TEDALLEN80]

Anyone have any information that can HELP me???

[TEDALLEN80]

todays update:
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1499.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1495.jpg

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The gaping mouth and the efflux of smoky white stuff is, unfortunately, not a good sign with a new haddoni. I'd tried several myself, all going through the same cycle that ultimately ended in death. Here a long thread on my red one, with lots of advice given by folks on it in situations similar to yours:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1479003

[TEDALLEN80]

just read the whole thread and sorry for your loss. My main concern is that this is not recently obtained from the wild. It came from a hobbiest that had him for roughly 2 years.

I also fear D day, but so far he hasnt moved and has a very very very strong hold of the bottom of the tank.

Thanks for helping me out randy

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Transport can still stress them. Hopefully it will come around. :)

[TEDALLEN80]

i got a nice feeding response and very lifelike....lets see if he can keep his meal down

[TEDALLEN80]

after the feeding his mouth closed to normal and almost instantly started to inflate. I fed about a quater size of my home made food consisting of the following:
selcon
vitachem
omega one flakes
shrimp
scalops
salmon
tuna
brine shrimp enriched
spirulina
PE mysis
cyclopeeze
garlic
rotifers
and some nano 3600

[tufacody]

I've never been a fan of feeding stressed nems, but I wish you the best

[TEDALLEN80]

i feel i have no other choice.

[MarinaP]

I would point a small pump at the anemone and keep the flow steady. See how the anemone responds. You should be able to see some sort of change in the animal (does it inflate?).

Do you have a sea cucumber in the tank or grape culerpa in the sump?

[taylor t]

I would point a small pump at the anemone and keep the flow steady. See how the anemone responds. You should be able to see some sort of change in the animal (does it inflate?).

Do you have a sea cucumber in the tank or grape culerpa in the sump?

Grape culerpa? Why?

[affordableocean]

wow this is an interesting thread...hoping the nem will pull out of it's funk....tagging along...

[TEDALLEN80]

no algae or cucumbers in the tank at all, and i did point a powerhead to blow across the surface of the nem.

yes he inflates
tentacles still sticky also

[MarinaP]

Can you see the base of the foot through the bottom of the tank? No damage?

[TEDALLEN80]

the tank is not a see through tank. Its a rubbermade tub im using as a temporary holding tank. The foot is securely attached.

[puter]

IME, the single greatest predictor of success with these anemones is whether they "settle down" by firmly attaching to a rock/tank bottom, and remain unmoving, even after being fed, in that location.

Spawning, a gaping mouth, and extreme contracting/expanding cycles are all "bad" signs... but they're also pretty common in virtually every recently shipped S. haddoni anemone I've received... with symptoms improving markedly over about a three week period after being shipped.

Are the pictures you provided taken with a "normal" lens? I've never seen a S. haddoni anemone with that color pattern before.

[TEDALLEN80]

Are the pictures you're showing taken with a "normal" lens? I've never seen a S. haddoni anemone with that color pattern before.

yes its the lens i got with my nikon d60. Its a 18-55 nikon lens.

He accepted food, inflated, mouth closed, stayed inflated. Checked on him about an hour later mouth is back open, but the food was ingested.


as we speak his current condition is:
partially inflated roughly 30-40%. Supports its own weight, has the ruffled flower look. Mouth gaping huge probably about 3" but no discharge after the release of sperm on thursday late/friday early 1am or so . Lights have been off for roughly 3 hours.

Here is what strikes me odd as ive had haddonis in the past perish.
1. the gaping mouth but no discharge (brown poo like goo)
2. the gaping mouth, but acceptance of food
3. Inflation, but never complete deflation to where it looks like a blob

As for the stickyness: when the anemone loses the stickyness, is it the inability to replace nematocists? or are they retracted?

[puter]

Given what you're describing, assuming the anemone is firmly attached and not moving, I'd be reasonably encouraged. I've had several that had a horrendous looking gaping mouth for the first couple weeks, that recovered.

Personally, I'd limit the feedings to regular, very small portions of enriched foods for the next couple weeks. Stop feeding if the anemone moves, if it everts its "stomach", or if the contraction/expansion contortions become more extreme.

You'll (obviously) still have the brown bolus expelled within 48 hours or so after the anemone eats. That's normal and fine. It's the small brown blobs and excessive contortions that would be of concern and it's a good sign that you're not seeing them.

As to stickiness, the anemones seem to become less sticky 1) after eating (a lot), 2) when moving around (sick or not), 3) when they're in a serious state of decline. I don't think it has anything to do with a lack of nematocysts.

Good luck!

[TEDALLEN80]

thanks mark. I will update daily. Since i offered some food today i think ill wait til probably tuesday or wednesday to offer another small portion.


Pics tomorrow

[MarinaP]

Do you have sand in the holding tank? You said that the anemone was supporting its' own weight, hence my question...

[sugartooth]

Such a pretty and interesting color. Did you do your water change yet?
If not, my suggestion is to do a series of water changes after discharge is seen. In my experience, I was lucky enough to catch mine doing that when first in my tank. I caught it doing it again a couple of days after that. Otherwise, I would have never known what was going on.
I imagine that what you see is only a moment of what can be going on throughout the day and night a little bit at a time. I also noticed a slight 'off' smell to my tank water after witnessing these events and prior to water change. If you have ever smelled sps out of the water, it's similar to that and can be subtle. I have a habit of smelling my tank up close when I sense there may be something wrong with my anemones. :)

One time I caught it happening and quickly siphoned directly from nem's mouth to bucket. The water in the bucket smelled horribly.

I also agree with others that feeding shouldn't be a priority right now. If it will make you feel better to see a feeding response, I would also suggest very small foods.

The mouth looks gaping, but has pretty good tone around the rim. I would interpret that as meaning it still is strong enough. It could also mean something is going on with it's foot, whether it's not firmly planted yet or damage from removal and transport.

Are you acclimating the lighting? My knee jerk response when seeing the pictures was to give it a little less light....either by raising your lights or using a screen or eggcrate. I really have no good reason why to tell you to do that, other than that was my gut reaction.
Good luck!

[TEDALLEN80]

Do you have sand in the holding tank? You said that the anemone was supporting its' own weight, hence my question...
no sand in the tank. This anemone was in a bare bottom system and flourished for 2 years. This is why i did not do the tupperware with sand.

What i meant by supporting its own weight was that the foot inflates vertically, raising the top of the anemone off of the ground. It supports the weight of the inflated top piece (mouth/tentacles) whatever you want to call it.


Did you do your water change yet?
yes i did a 50 gallon w/c on the 300 gal system

Are you acclimating the lighting?
no, but i measured today and the bulbs are 30-32" away from the oral disk.

pics to come soon tonight

[TEDALLEN80]

so i was just thinking...Say if the anemone did have a damaged foot. I know for a fact that i didnt damage it, but the person i bought it from said they had no luck removing it. Im guessing they attempted to remove it. Say they did damage the foot slightly to where its unnoticeable. Maybe the mouth is gaping because it naturally has a reaction to do that to prevent infection (venting the interior of the body)

What would be the best way to repair it? Feed alot of enriched foods to aid in healing? let it heal on its own?

This is a hypothetical situation and have not seen any damage on the foot so far

[dalston]

I am pretty sure that a damaged food on an S. haddoni is a one way street ending in the death of the anemone, especially for one that is not established in its surroundings. I have seen comebacks for E. quadricolor but not haddoni...

Haddoni prefer to have their foot in about 3" of sand so being a BB, it may be struggling to settle into its new surroundings.

The best thing you can do is provide it with pristine water and feed it some krill every few days...good luck

[sugartooth]

If the anemone was healthy (presumed it was since it was in a tank for 2 years) a little bit of damage can be tolerated. It definitely would/should be babied and allowed to heal without disturbing it (other fish, crabs, shrimp that may bother it)

My last Haddoni attached very firmly to the bottom of the bucket during acclimation and took me 35 minutes to try to pry it out without damage. I still had fine strings of tissue hanging from the foot and thought it was bad news. That Haddoni gaped for a good month and a half. Can't determine if this is a direct correlation, but only something that was observed. This is the same anemone that released substance and I did a series of water changes.

But, my circumstances were a little different. This anemone was shipped, and was in the foulest water I have seen to date. So for mine, there were most likely a number of factors in play.

[TEDALLEN80]

his mouth is 3" wide now with what loooks like the stomach expelling.

Does anyone know the number to "anemone hospice" because giving him the best before he dies seems like the right thing to do. :(

here is the unfortunate pictures 2 hours before lights out sunday night day 4:
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1502.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1501.jpg

[sugartooth]

Does the seller have a picture of it in his tank when he sold it?

[TEDALLEN80]

nope, it was a friend of a friend kind of deal.

[puter]

Again, while things certainly can go either way, I wouldn't give up hope yet. The fact that your anemone is firmly attached is a really good sign.

The everted stomach isn't.:( If it were me, I'd lay off the feedings for awhile but not change any other conditions unless there's an obvious change in the status of the anemone.

A healthy, well conditioned S. haddoni anemone can survive being cut in half... so it can certainly recover from having a damaged foot. It seems to be particularly easy to damage the pedal disc of these anemones, much more so than BTAs.

Hang in there...

[TEDALLEN80]

I only fed it that once...and he took it in like a champ. I wont give up on him. Tomorrow i will however knock out another water change Probably a 10-15% 35 gallons or so.

[TEDALLEN80]

ill continue with the daily pics and thanks for the help so far.

[Toddrtrex]

Mine did not look at all like that after it spawned. It was shrunken up a bit, but its mouth was tightly closed the whole time.

Hopefully your is still just recovering from the move and spawning, but any time I have had a Haddoni invert its mouth/guts like that it didn't end up making it.

[TEDALLEN80]

same here...here is some of the other carpets i have had over the years mostly in bare bottom systems and none have ever shown this type of behavior:
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/topdownandclowns001.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/tangsandclown011.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/bigasscarpetgilplate005.jpg
and for size reference, the clown hosting the mouth
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/CARPET038.jpg

[TEDALLEN80]

todays update:
overnight he moved 6" to the left. he is backing into where i made a dam with 2 rocks and he is inflating so that his top overlaps the rocks. I think he might want to have some sand maybe a natural instinct...maybe he wasnt happy in a bare bottom system...

Here is what i am going to do. I have a rectangular rubbermade container i will fill with 4 or more inches of sand. I will cut the end off and have the sand taper down to the foot of the anemone. This way i will not have to disturb the anemone or remove his foot. Hopefully he will go right in the tupperware. When he goes in it i will put the side back on and the tupperware will be full of sand with the anemone in it.

[MarinaP]

haddoni like to wedge the foot like that \ in the sand and under the rock.

[TEDALLEN80]

yeah all mine have done it. In the tupperware i have i was going to put a rock in there so he can be in the sand and under a rock, but its up to him to move in there or not.

[MarinaP]

so far he has been following my train of thought ;) best of luck with him, really. If you have some time, take a few good pics of him, so I can add them to Anemones' FAQ here on RC.

[TEDALLEN80]

i will....thanks. I will post up day 5 pics tonight

[TEDALLEN80]

here is day 5:
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1504.jpg

[TEDALLEN80]

ok so today is day 6 and the anemone continued to move. I placed the rubbermade tupperware in front of him and blocked his path with a rock so he would move into the sand filled tupperware. Well after a couple of hours he did and the stomach is noticeably smaller (i think) But here he is as of 20 minutes ago
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1515.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1517.jpg

[TEDALLEN80]

day 6 9pm update:
a little progress i think although the anemone crab was supposed to be dead 3 months ago. I guess he survived off of scraps??? anyway here is the current status.

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1522.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1527.jpg

[puter]

If the anemone is moving around it is critically important, IMO, that you wedge the nearby rocks so they will not move at all. That size anemone will push the rocks pictured around, no problem at all. And, if the rocks move, the anemone will continue to do so as well.

Moving S. haddoni anemones do not fare well.

Also, I believe it is important that the anemone find a place where its pedal disc is 1) exposed to little to no flow, and 2) is completely shielded from light. While I wouldn't add sand so that it touches the anemone, I'd ensure those conditions are met by making sure there's plenty nearby.

If you read the thread on Randy's anemone you've seen my detailed recommendations on how to arrange the rocks so the anemone can bury its column under a sloping rock ledge while its oral disc lays over rocks on the surface.

I certainly don't claim to have all the answers, but that rock arrangement has worked out quite well in a number of cases.

[TEDALLEN80]

once he moved into the tupperware on his own i blocked him in, On each side there's a rock buried as you can see in the pics above. I also mounted the rock to the tupperware via acrylic rods so the rocks wouldnt move at all. The sand is roughly 4" deep so the rocks are buried good. Once he got into the tupperware and realized he was in sand he got taller and the mouth shrunk.

Now this could have a direct result from being in a bare bottom system. The foot extends/stretches down into the sand or through the sand causing the anemone to make itself taller. Once he's taller it would pull the stomach/mouth together back into the column. Seems logical right?

[BonsaiNut]

I am curious about your water parameters - particularly pH and alkalinity. Do you know the pH and alkalinity of the tank/supplier you received it from? How are you maintaining calcium levels in your tank? How was the anemone acclimated?

To me, it looks stressed but healthy. Your water appears to be high alkalinity (which is fine once the anemone is acclimated). Try to avoid changes in its environment. I disagree with people who are suggesting lots of water changes unless you have a definite reason to do so.

How is the water movement and dissolved oxygen? Don't forget - haddonis are shallow water anemones that live in the surf zone. Once established they are very hardy, but if stressed I have found they do better with more water motion and high levels of oxygen. I have had haddonis wrap around heaters and burn almost in half, and then recover, so I wouldn't worry too much about hardiness as long as proper environment is maintained and the anemone acclimates well.

They ARE sand anemones - so they would prefer the sand. In the past, mine were always in the sand at the bottom of the tank, regardless of where I would chose to locate them. As long as their foot and column were in sand they seemed happy and did not wander frequently (as long as other parameters were met).

I would not feed until it acclimates. When you decide to feed, try extremely small pieces of food a few times a day (no larger than a pencil eraser).

[TEDALLEN80]

current water parameters:
alk 10dkh
calcium 400
mag 1300
ph 8.1
salinity 1.025-1.026
temp 78-81
po4 .02 hanna
nitrate undetectable
dissolved oxygen is unknown


Drip acclimated anemone for 2 or more hours. He was in a 5 gallon bucket 1/2 way filled and i filled it 2 and a half times before removing to the system.

How am i maintaining calcium??....I have a big GEO calcium reactor for alkalinity and i manually dose calcium if it falls below 400. Starting to drip kalk 24/7 to keep ph levels at bay. I do not have a second chamber for the reactor but i am thinking of adding a cup with an airstone and having the effluent drip into the cup to burn off some of the excess co2

I received the anemone from a hobbiest and his water parameters are unknown. I didnt think to test the water.

Water movement is slow/mild. Not turbid, and no direct flow. Roughly 2500 gph in a 4'x3'x18" deep tank plus the return. Just enough to move the oral petal just a bit but not make the oral petal flap over.

I havent fed since the first feeding, and right now he us buried nicely in the rubbermade tupperware surrounded by a dam of rocks and hasnt moved since he got there yesterday

Also as far as water changes i have only done 1 so far and that was because of the spwan

[BonsaiNut]

Once settled, he won't need a lot of flow (unlike gigantea).

I have found these guys to be particularly sensitive to changes in pH and alkalinity. In the photos it appears you are dosing calcium, so depending on what process you use, you may have swings in pH (i.e. the acid/base swing of CO2 / Kalk). Additionally, if your friend does not dose calcium, he may have a very different water makeup than yours - including much lower alkalinity and different pH.

From everything you describe, your water is good - but we don't know what water he came from. This may be a simple case of too much of a change in water chemistry too quickly (especially given the triggered spawn behavior). I think he looks better in the most recent photos. I would try to keep the environment as stable as possible and let him continue to acclimate and hopefully he will recover. At this point doing "nothing" is probably the best course of action. Based on everything I have seen I am optimistic...

[welldigger]

In the photos it appears you are dosing calcium, so depending on what process you use, you may have swings in pH (i.e. the acid/base swing of CO2 / Kalk).

What did you see in any of these pictures that would give that away? He states his process for dosing but I'm wondering how you picked up on that from pictures?

[TEDALLEN80]

What did you see in any of these pictures that would give that away? He states his process for dosing but I'm wondering how you picked up on that from pictures?
i was thinking the same ......??????

[BonsaiNut]

What did you see in any of these pictures that would give that away? He states his process for dosing but I'm wondering how you picked up on that from pictures?

To me, tanks with high maintained levels of dissolved minerals look very different from tanks without. SPS growth, coraline growth, rock encrustation, etc, all look very different and are much heavier. A dead giveaway is plastic plumbing fixtures covered with heavy coraline algae. You typically won't see this in a standard reef tank, unless the reef keeper does tons of water changes.

Quite frankly, it looked a lot like one of my tanks when I was dripping kalk :) I think the results speak for themselves - your sps growth is probably very good. However you have to stay on top of the chemistry a lot more than you would if you were just doing water changes. It also suggested to me that your tank might have very different water characteristics from the original tank, unless that person followed a very similar care regimen.

[TEDALLEN80]

i have the same coraline growth in my 29 bio cube and i only do 5 gallon water changes every 2 weeks.

In the system the carpet is in there is a bunch of softies. I try to do bi-weekly water changes 50 gallons at a time. Total volume of 300 gallons of more

[BonsaiNut]

i have the same coraline growth in my 29 bio cube and i only do 5 gallon water changes every 2 weeks.


Like I said, it is rare to see this type of coraline growth unless people dose calc or do a ton of water changes. It is rare to find people who do 35% monthly water changes :)

Regardless, my point still stands, which is that your friend may not follow the same husbandry practices. Instead of arguing about coraline growth, I would recommend you get on the phone to your friend and ask him his water pH and alk. You may be surprised to find out what it is. Based on the behavior of your anemone, I am pretty sure it is very different. He probably doesn't dose calc, and his pH and alk are probably low.

[tufacody]

I didn't read the whole thread, but this would otherwise be a very expensive nem ($3-500), and is fairly rare. It's probably also at least 100 years old. Have you considered giving it back to the original owner? It would be such a shame to lose such a beauty if the original owner has been doing well with it.

[BonsaiNut]

It's probably also at least 100 years old.

Why do people post stuff like this? Prove to me this anemone isn't 2 years old.

(I agree this is a beautiful specimen, and a rare color morph. However I disagree that taking it back to the last owner would do any good - and might at this point be a death sentence. I think we probably have a situation where two aquariums have very different water chemistries, and taking it back to the first owner after it is barely acclimating to the second would likely be too stressful. I could always be wrong :) but I wouldn't do it if it belonged to me...)

[TEDALLEN80]

Regardless, my point still stands, which is that your friend may not follow the same husbandry practices. Instead of arguing about coraline growth, I would recommend you get on the phone to your friend and ask him his water pH and alk. You may be surprised to find out what it is. Based on the behavior of your anemone, I am pretty sure it is very different. He probably doesn't dose calc, and his pH and alk are probably low.

This wasnt my friend, it was a friend of a friend type of thing. As far as water chemistry, i know for a fact we used the same salt, and the anemone was in a reef tank. Water chemistry shouldnt be that far off from mine since we are both sps keepers. and generally people who keep sps keep their levels about the same (generally).

I dont want to argue about coraline growth either, but you have to understand why i question your methods of observation. I dont know you from anyone else on this forum.

I have had plenty of different methods, ideas, and plenty say this anemone is doomed. Some have said that theirs did the same for 3 weeks after a tank transfer. Some have not. I have to basically gather everyones information and make the actions that i believe are what will work. If i can breed clownfish fith a 90%+ success rate im sure i can point myself in the right direction with a little help. Thats why i started this thread.

I didn't read the whole thread, but this would otherwise be a very expensive nem ($3-500), and is fairly rare. It's probably also at least 100 years old. Have you considered giving it back to the original owner? It would be such a shame to lose such a beauty if the original owner has been doing well with it.
not going to happen.

100 years old :rolleye1:

[BonsaiNut]

As far as water chemistry, i know for a fact we used the same salt, and the anemone was in a reef tank. Water chemistry shouldnt be that far off from mine since we are both sps keepers. and generally people who keep sps keep their levels about the same (generally).

So I guess we'll never know... :eek1:

As far as why I am bothering you by posting to this thread, someone sent me an email asking me to help out with your anemone if I could. No skin off my back if you don't believe me or trust me :) I would simply recommend basing your thought processes on facts. First thing I would do is MEASURE the source water and then compare it to your water. Since you are unwilling to do this we have no idea if the water is any factor whatsoever. With no further information, you are correct, I cannot help you.

[tufacody]

My comments on the age of this anemone are based on other studies and comments I have read. I have not personally conducted such studies, so if that discredits the comments, so be it. Here is one blurb on the internet I found very quickly. I have read similar comments in the recent Marine Fish and Reef magazine.

"It is impossible to determine age of a sea anemone, except for one that has been raised in an aquarium or tracked continuously in the wild from first settlement. A small one is not necessarily young, for coelenterates grow only if well fed and shrink if starved. Individuals of species that harbour anemonefishes have been monitored for several years with no apparent change in size (although that is difficult to measure, due to the absence of a skeleton). However, studies on other species, in field and laboratory, have led to estimated ages on the order of many decades and even several centuries. There are scattered records of temperate anemones surviving many decades in commercial aquaria, and the life-span of a small sea anemone in New Zealand has been calculated, based on actuarial tables, to be over 300 years! From such data, it is likely that most individuals of the "gigantic" sea anemones we have encountered during our field work exceed a century in age. This is also consistent with the generalization that large animals of all kinds typically are long-lived."

So if you want to know why I made that comment, that's why. It is in fact a generalization.

[TEDALLEN80]

So I guess we'll never know... :eek1:

As far as why I am bothering you by posting to this thread, someone sent me an email asking me to help out with your anemone if I could. No skin off my back if you don't believe me or trust me :) I would simply recommend basing your thought processes on facts. First thing I would do is MEASURE the source water and then compare it to your water. Since you are unwilling to do this we have no idea if the water is any factor whatsoever. With no further information, you are correct, I cannot help you.

the tank is no more. He was breaking down the tank and i can only keep trying to get ahold of him to find out what his water parameters were. I really do appreciate your help as well as others and i do take every comment into consideration.

day 6 pictures are to follow shortly

[TEDALLEN80]

My comments on the age of this anemone are based on other studies and comments I have read. I have not personally conducted such studies, so if that discredits the comments, so be it. Here is one blurb on the internet I found very quickly. I have read similar comments in the recent Marine Fish and Reef magazine.

"It is impossible to determine age of a sea anemone, except for one that has been raised in an aquarium or tracked continuously in the wild from first settlement. A small one is not necessarily young, for coelenterates grow only if well fed and shrink if starved. Individuals of species that harbour anemonefishes have been monitored for several years with no apparent change in size (although that is difficult to measure, due to the absence of a skeleton). However, studies on other species, in field and laboratory, have led to estimated ages on the order of many decades and even several centuries. There are scattered records of temperate anemones surviving many decades in commercial aquaria, and the life-span of a small sea anemone in New Zealand has been calculated, based on actuarial tables, to be over 300 years! From such data, it is likely that most individuals of the "gigantic" sea anemones we have encountered during our field work exceed a century in age. This is also consistent with the generalization that large animals of all kinds typically are long-lived."

So if you want to know why I made that comment, that's why. It is in fact a generalization.

well then i retract my :rolleye1:

but i will not return the nem. I just couldnt.

[TEDALLEN80]

puter i added more rock around the anemone just in case he decides to go hulk on me. here is day 6 results alot more inflation of the pedal disk: I say an improvement so far.
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1533.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1535.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1538.jpg
here is the rock dam that is anchored to the bottom of the tupperware.
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1540.jpg

[tufacody]

Thats doesn't look too bad. When my gig's mouth was gaping a little, I boosted the salinity a tad and it appeared to help. I would try 1.026. Nems seem to like full-strength salinity.

[TEDALLEN80]

yeah, i cant tell on my refractometer sometimes. Thats why i guess either or. Sometimes my eye sight isnt that great very close up.

[puter]

Looks good to me.:thumbsup:

The key thing now is to see if/hope that it will stay firmly anchored there without moving around over the next several days. My suggestion would be to continue to refrain from feeding it and to make no other environmental changes.

Good luck!

[TEDALLEN80]

So hold off on the water change??? i would like to knock one out but havent gotten around to it.

Also towards the top of the anemone you cant see it, but theres a rock too. Its in the shape of a "C" and i also added more sand over the course of about 2 hours to the tupperware.

[BonsaiNut]

My comments on the age of this anemone are based on other studies and comments I have read. I have not personally conducted such studies, so if that discredits the comments, so be it. Here is one blurb on the internet I found very quickly. I have read similar comments in the recent Marine Fish and Reef magazine.

"It is impossible to determine age of a sea anemone, except for one that has been raised in an aquarium or tracked continuously in the wild from first settlement. A small one is not necessarily young, for coelenterates grow only if well fed and shrink if starved. Individuals of species that harbour anemonefishes have been monitored for several years with no apparent change in size (although that is difficult to measure, due to the absence of a skeleton). However, studies on other species, in field and laboratory, have led to estimated ages on the order of many decades and even several centuries. There are scattered records of temperate anemones surviving many decades in commercial aquaria, and the life-span of a small sea anemone in New Zealand has been calculated, based on actuarial tables, to be over 300 years! From such data, it is likely that most individuals of the "gigantic" sea anemones we have encountered during our field work exceed a century in age. This is also consistent with the generalization that large animals of all kinds typically are long-lived."

So if you want to know why I made that comment, that's why. It is in fact a generalization.

I think I need to report this to SCOPES :) I have read the same quote over and over so many times it has (at least to me) become an urban legend. It is very similar to earlier claims about tridacnids and corals, which have since been proven false in light of extensive experience around growth rates and ages of adults.

Rather than depend on "scattered records of temperate anemones", I prefer to depend on real actual experience of dozens of members on this forum who have taken small (in some case bleached) tropical marine anemones that measure a couple of inches in size, and who have grown them into 18" monsters in a couple of years or less. It is clear that in the right environment these anemones can grow and multiply quickly. Therefore just because an anemone is large does not make it old.

I know you are trying to make a point about what a shame it would be if this creature were to die, however by posting this urban legend over and over it continues to have a life of its own on the Internet. The one part of the quote I wish people would remember is the first sentence: "It is impossible to determine age of a sea anemone, except for one that has been raised in an aquarium or tracked continuously in the wild from first settlement."

[puter]

The simple answer is to just hold off doing any water changes. If you can do them in such a way that they're "imperceptible" to the anemone (i.e. very slow, carefully matched parameters) then fine. In circumstances like ths I do water changes in one of two ways:

1) In setups that allow me to change the overall water volume, I siphon out several gallons of "old" water and drip in several gallons of new water over a long time (days sometimes).

2) In setups that require the overall water volume to remain constant I use a dual-head dosing pump to remove small amounts of old water and add new water at the same time.... again over long periods of time.

----

Just noticed something in the picture... is the intake to that powerhead as close to the anemone as it appears? If so, it'd be too close for me to be comfortable...

[TEDALLEN80]

I'll just hold off on the water change. I dont have the resources to do a slow change. I do however match the parameters by supplementing the water change water and mixing for 24 hours or more.

Which powerhead are you referring to. The little grey thing in the picture is from a sponge filter. My clowns like to play in it so i kept it in there

[tufacody]

I think I need to report this to SCOPES :) I have read the same quote over and over so many times it has (at least to me) become an urban legend. It is very similar to earlier claims about tridacnids and corals, which have since been proven false in light of extensive experience around growth rates and ages of adults.

Rather than depend on "scattered records of temperate anemones", I prefer to depend on real actual experience of dozens of members on this forum who have taken small (in some case bleached) tropical marine anemones that measure a couple of inches in size, and who have grown them into 18" monsters in a couple of years or less. It is clear that in the right environment these anemones can grow and multiply quickly. Therefore just because an anemone is large does not make it old.

I know you are trying to make a point about what a shame it would be if this creature were to die, however by posting this urban legend over and over it continues to have a life of its own on the Internet. The one part of the quote I wish people would remember is the first sentence: "It is impossible to determine age of a sea anemone, except for one that has been raised in an aquarium or tracked continuously in the wild from first settlement."

There is also the issue that healthy anemone tissue does not seem to degenerate. I appreciate your skepticism, but not willing to classify this one as an "urban legend" quite yet.

[BonsaiNut]

There is also the issue that healthy anemone tissue does not seem to degenerate. I appreciate your skepticism, but not willing to classify this one as an "urban legend" quite yet.

Based on this logic, it follows that because some trees can have lifespans of thousands of years, ALL trees have lifespans of thousands of years :) Or that if a plant is a tree, it must be thousands of years old :) Or that if a tree is a bristlecone pine, which is known to have a lifespan of thousands of years, that the tree must be thousands of years old :)

I have some bristlecone pine bonsai that I have raised from seed that would tend to disagree with this logic :)

All kidding aside, some of our thoughts around individual mortality break down in light of different biological processes. For example, all Valencia orange trees come from a single parent. All of them are grafts. For all I know, the original tree may even be dead. Are they offspring? Are they parts of the original parent? If a standard orange tree has a lifespan of 200 years, but I continue to graft daughter trees for 1000 years what then? (Grafting from one tree, to the next, to the next). When does one generation end, and one begin? By grafting, am I creating an individual with an infinite lifespan?

If I take an anemone that is 50 years old and cut it in half and have two individuals, are they each 50 years old? If I remove predators and let a single BTA clone unchecked, so that an entire reef is covered with them in 10 years, what then? What if all BTA's are actually clones from an original individual that was "born" 100,000 years ago? Does it make the individual more or less valuable?

[tufacody]

i suggest you do a search for some genetic studies that were done on anemone tissue, as you might find them interesting. One was done by a Cali school and another was done by an Italian university. I wish I had saved them. The studies focused on genetic markers to ensure that testing was not being done on clones, if I recall correctly. Both articles noted complete lack of genetic mutation, commonly associated with tissues that age.

[TEDALLEN80]

Ok today (day 7) there is no change in the anemone. Same as yesterday. He has stopped moving and is dug in like a tick. Attached really well. Water params are the same, no change in water chemistry.

[BonsaiNut]

i suggest you do a search for some genetic studies that were done on anemone tissue, as you might find them interesting. One was done by a Cali school and another was done by an Italian university. I wish I had saved them. The studies focused on genetic markers to ensure that testing was not being done on clones, if I recall correctly. Both articles noted complete lack of genetic mutation, commonly associated with tissues that age.

Ahhh.... here is the article I was looking for :) From way back in 2002. Scroll down to the bottom to read about tank-raising a S. gigantea from the size of a penny to 12 inches (with minimal supplemental feeding) in 3 years. A quote:

"This brings up the question of age. Fautin and Allen (1992) proposed that large anemones could be more than a century old. While I do not dispute that some anemones may indeed be very long lived, to infer that something must be old simply because it is large is not entirely valid in my opinion. In the case of our S. gigantea, I think it would be safe to say that they should attain a diameter of close to a meter in less than ten years."

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/images/nov2002/photo9_Baby_Green_Carpet.jpg

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/feature.htm

[tufacody]

Bonsai - I don't disagree that size and age may be unrelated in individual specimens, especially those in a captive environment. However, when you consider the animals in the ocean, and the fact that their natural lifespans can be huge, you would think that size would otherwise be uniform in any particular locale. Thus when you see smaller anemones in the wild, I think the GENERALIZATION that smaller ones are younger is perfectly valid. Nobody is saying that any particular anemone IS 100 years old, but there is no reason to discount it either, at least in my opinion. It's a sombering fact that is worthy of consideration when attempting to keep one captive.

[BonsaiNut]

Nobody is saying that any particular anemone IS 100 years old, but there is no reason to discount it either, at least in my opinion.

I thought you were saying it :) Quote: "It's probably also at least 100 years old." That was what started the whole thread of this conversation... :)

[puter]

Ok today (day 7) there is no change in the anemone. Same as yesterday. He has stopped moving and is dug in like a tick... Excellent! Exactly what you want. Hopefully "he's" found himself a home.

[TEDALLEN80]

Lets hope so. Got a long road ahead of us. I will post day 8 pics tonight

[TEDALLEN80]

Ok today was not a good day. Checked the tank and the anemone looked good. I took my turkey baster to blow the debris off and the water felt cold. ???? whats going on. I checked my Aquacontroller and the temp was 75.5!!!
Oh my god!! Checked the heaters and both are kaput. 300w and a 200w backup. I immediately tested the outlet on the DC 8. Works fine. So good thing i had an extra 300w heater laying around. Fired it up. I also have 1000 watts of light over the system and 2 big fans that blow across the water. I added a program to have the fans turn off for anything below 79 this was just dropping the temp even more since the heaters were inoperable. Needless to say i dont thing the nem was affected nearly that much:

here is day 8 with the temperature swing to 75.5
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1542.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1543.jpg

[smoke15]

my red and green carpet anemones has lived through 75 degree water without issue

[puter]

I agree. Temporary lower temperatures, in particular, are not a big deal. Err on the side of bringing the temperature back up to normal more slowly than too fast. What temp are you shooting for? I typically keep S. haddoni anemones at 78-80F so you're really not very far off...

[TEDALLEN80]

shooting for 79-81. My corals seem to do better in this range.

[tufacody]

For under $10 you can make an alarm to plug into the DC8, and set the AC3 to sound it whenever parameters fall out of whack. That's what I did, and its saved my arse a few times.

[TEDALLEN80]

its an AC jr. if it can be done send me the specs and schematics

[tufacody]

no schematics. buy 120v buzzer or siren. buy $.78 extension cord and cut off recepticle end. connect wires. plug into outlet in dc8. program "if temp < 76 then alarm on." done

I have also used this with the proper walwart adapter:

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/ES-11/PAINFULLY-LOUD-MINI-SIREN/1.html

I went to a buzzer because this one not only wakes up the house, it wakes up the neighbors, lol.

[TEDALLEN80]

sweet, i was thinking of something like that. I hope i have an outlet available :)

[TEDALLEN80]

Day 9 no affect on the temperature drop. Thats good news. Seems to be a little more inflated today. Pics soon

[TEDALLEN80]

day 9 pics: Would anyone suggest a small feeding at this point.
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1558.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1563.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1565.jpg

[puter]

I'd wait... looking good though.

[TEDALLEN80]

It seems through out the day the mouth will be wider at some points. Early in the day, its wide. Coming to the end of the light cycle the mouth/stomach is pulled in more and smaller. Is there any justification for this?

[Peter Eichler]

Personally, I don't think PH nor alkalinity or temperature have much factor in S. haddoni's well being as long as they're within a reasonable range. I've kept S. haddoni in anywhere from 72-88 degrees without and visible signs of stress, the same goes for varying alkalinity and PH. In fact in nature I can guarantee you these animals go through some wild temperature fluctuations in addition to baking in the sun from time to time.

In short, don't worry about the temp dip you had and don't overly fixate on your parameters or if you're doing too few or not enough water changes... It's a new carpet anemone, they just need time to adapt. Sadly many carpets don't make it for long after being put in new surroundings, some do. I guarantee you many many of those anemones that didn't make it were in as close to ideal conditions as you'll find in home aquaria. Nowadays, assuming decent parameters, I thinks it's luck of the draw more than anything.

As for feeding, I'd personally wait, but if you want to feed it a little something I don't think it'll be harmful as long as it's something fairly small in particle size.

Their mouths are often a little more visible and open over night and before lights on, so your observations aren't anything out of the ordinary.

Lastly, from your last photos, you may not be out of the woods yet, but I can see a clearing ;)

Good luck, it's a gorgeous anemone!

[TEDALLEN80]

Day 10 no change. I fed my purple tang some formula 2 pellets today and some landed on the carpet and he closed up on the pellets and ate them. I didnt intend for this but needless to say his feeding responses and reactions are high. No signs of movement, no signs of deteioration. No pics needed for today. I'll follow up with pics later this week, or even tomorrow

[TEDALLEN80]

day 11 looks almost the same maybe a little more inflated

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1592.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/tedallen80/DSC_1594.jpg

[BonsaiNut]

Personally, I don't think PH nor alkalinity or temperature have much factor in S. haddoni's well being as long as they're within a reasonable range. I've kept S. haddoni in anywhere from 72-88 degrees without and visible signs of stress, the same goes for varying alkalinity and PH. In fact in nature I can guarantee you these animals go through some wild temperature fluctuations in addition to baking in the sun from time to time.

Any source to your thoughts about pH and alkalinity? Because I can kill a haddoni in 5 minutes with a minor pH spike that will leave SPS and fish unphased. While I don't disagree about major temp fluctuations, I'm not sure that same can be said about pH and alkalinity...

[LesMartin]

Looks like it's pulling through. I know it's not much help but I've got to say that the colour is amazing.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Because I can kill a haddoni in 5 minutes with a minor pH spike that will leave SPS and fish unphased. While I don't disagree about major temp fluctuations, I'm not sure that same can be said about pH and alkalinity...


A pH spike accompanied by an alkalinity jump? What magnitude of pH spike?

Few organisms seem to respond to pH changes in the range of normally acceptable reef pH that I've ever seen.

[marc price]

A pH spike accompanied by an alkalinity jump? What magnitude of pH spike?

Few organisms seem to respond to pH changes in the range of normally acceptable reef pH that I've ever seen.

Really, i mean it seems plausible given extremes in shallow tide pools and exposed tidal zones. However i have read in fish mags. that zooxanthellae burst when anemones are subjected to rapid pH changes. I don't know how true, or if what's considered an acceptable range presents such a jump. Whatever the case may be it's obvious that hasn't happened here.


PS., Randy H F, could you please send me a private message or your e:mail addy, i've a reef chemistry riddle needing to be solved. Thanks

[TEDALLEN80]

day 12 no change.

Quick question...Scientists can prove that anemones are 100's of years old. If anemones split there is 2 basically genetic clones from my understanding. So that clone splits, and the next clone splits, so on and so on. Wouldnt the original anemones DNA or genetic makeup be identifiable in the last generation? I mean 1/2 the body is carried to each generation. So in all reality there would be no scientific proof on determining the age of an anemone, just the path it has come..

Yay? nay? someone help me understand this

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Scientists can prove that anemones are 100's of years old.

I'm skeptical that they can "prove" it. They may speculate based on apparent growth rates for some few species, which, as we've discussed, is clearly prone to error. As far as I know, there is nothing like tree rings or skeletal chemical makeup to rely on.

[MarinaP]

just the path it has come..


All generations of clones will carry identical DNA, so there will be no "path", F1 will be identical to F100.

[BonsaiNut]

Because I can kill a haddoni in 5 minutes with a minor pH spike that will leave SPS and fish unphased. While I don't disagree about major temp fluctuations, I'm not sure that same can be said about pH and alkalinity...


A pH spike accompanied by an alkalinity jump? What magnitude of pH spike?

Few organisms seem to respond to pH changes in the range of normally acceptable reef pH that I've ever seen.

Sorry Randy - I'm sure that you would be the expert here. I wish I had specific numbers, but to be frank it has been too long and I don't have my reef logs. I have had specific problems with anemones when I was working with different calcium-supplementing technologies. They seemed particularly susceptible when I was dripping kalkwasser - accidental dosing overages would kill them while leaving fish and corals stressed but fine within 24 hours. From my memory, I know the spike was not within the range of normally acceptable reef pH, but how high I can't recall. However it happened twice to me over the years - a spike in pH that would kill anemones but leave all other critters alive. I agree that spikes like those that I am describing would not occur in the wild.

[TEDALLEN80]

I was planning on driping kalk 24-7 to compensate for the excess co2 from my calcium reactor. Should i not do this then?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have had specific problems with anemones when I was working with different calcium-supplementing technologies.

OK, thanks. I understand. :)

I was planning on driping kalk 24-7 to compensate for the excess co2 from my calcium reactor. Should i not do this then?


That's not a concern, and is probably a benefit, unless you overdose. I use limewater, and even in an overdose that killed fish, I did not lose my E. quads or H. crispas. I didn't have a haddoni to know for that species. :)

[Toddrtrex]

I have dumped either 2.5 or 5 gallons (( depending on the tank )) of Kalk water into my tanks over the course of a couple of hours more then a few times. In all those times my Haddonis showed no response at all to it. Granted I make my Kalk on the weak side, but I am sure it effected my parameters somewhat.

[MarinaP]

I melted about a 100 aiptasia in a 225G with kalk paste a week ago. There was definitely an overdose of kalk in the tank with a magnifica, a crispa, a haddoni and numerous BTAs. None of the hosting anemones were affected.

[TEDALLEN80]

ok im going to try to start this weekend.

[TEDALLEN80]

day 13, still the same. Mouth hasnt closed at all.

[Pylon]

Wow, just read the whole thing, I wish you the best of luck, he's a beauty.

[TEDALLEN80]

Thanks.

[tufacody]

Ted - have you tried a little less flow? How is your salinity.

[puter]

If you're looking for ongoing suggestions, so long as the anemone remains firmly attached and is not moving, mine would again be to refrain from making any changes in environmental conditions. Carefully administered addtions and supplementations intended to prevent the environmental conditions from changing (i.e. dripping kalk, normal Ca and Alk additions, etc.) are, of course, fine.

The critical "make it or not" milestone with these anemones seems to be at around 6-8 weeks. So, while things appear to be going well, there's a long road ahead. Resist the urge to rush things... the mouth may very well take two weeks to close up.

Many people, when they reach this stage, start getting antsy about feeding the anemone. IME, during this acclimation period, they often move after being fed. So, personally, I'd hold off... probably for a couple weeks so long as there are no major changes.

Cheers!

[TEDALLEN80]

Ted - have you tried a little less flow? How is your salinity.
there's not that much flow in the tank. Little enough to where some sediment will settle on the disk. I turkey baste it off 3-4 times a day.
salinity is steady 1.026

[TEDALLEN80]

If you're looking for ongoing suggestions, so long as the anemone remains firmly attached and is not moving, mine would again be to refrain from making any changes in environmental conditions. Carefully administered addtions and supplementations intended to prevent the environmental conditions from changing (i.e. dripping kalk, normal Ca and Alk additions, etc.) are, of course, fine.

The critical "make it or not" milestone with these anemones seems to be at around 6-8 weeks. So, while things appear to be going well, there's a long road ahead. Resist the urge to rush things... the mouth may very well take two weeks to close up.

Many people, when they reach this stage, start getting antsy about feeding the anemone. IME, during this acclimation period, they often move after being fed. So, personally, I'd hold off... probably for a couple weeks so long as there are no major changes.

Cheers!

Still havent fed it yet, except within the first days which i noted.

Dripping kalk was a plan even before i added the anemone. I just wanted to make sure it wouldnt affect him

Also i;m due to change bulbs, Havent ordered them yet. What would be a recommended plan of attack? Light acclimation?

[puter]

Barring a light burning out, I wouldn't change the bulbs until after the eight week period is over. If I HAD to change the bulb, I'd use a PAR meter to ensure the light reaching the anemone didn't change much. Have to change the bulb and no access to a PAR meter? Use several layers of screening and remove one every few days.

[TEDALLEN80]

even with a par meter, a 250w radium doesnt produce much par around the 30"+ mark. I'm sure i can take some measurements with my meter and see. I dont see the par being over 100. Its more for my corals. I'm at 12 months and should have changed them 2 months ago but ive been putting it off day by day.

[kellon16]

I just got a carpet and it seems to expels his mouth like this when ever he wants but then it goes back in really fast

[cidermaster]

update?

[puter]

Looks like the original poster "moved on"...

A shame since it'd be nice to know how things turned out.

[fishmanstan]

bump?!

[125mph]

Looks like the original poster "moved on"...

A shame since it'd be nice to know how things turned out.

That is one dead haddoni...