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luther1200
10/17/2009, 01:42 PM
Hi, so I was cleaning my tank yesterday and I noticed 2 or 3 of my SPS have small white spots at the base. I had this going on a while ago but thought I had it taken care of. I can't for the life of me figure out what is wrong. I have dosing pumps to maintain Ca/Alk. My Mg is fine (1350-1400). My NO3 and PO4 are almost 0. NO3 is about 2-5, PO4 is about 0.02-0.05. Which is pretty good I think. I did change from PC supplements to T5 and had slight color loss in some from the increase in light, but that was almost a month ago and everything seems to have recovered. And the 1 that was hardest hit by the light change is not 1 of the one's having a problem now.

So these are my theories so far.

#1- I have a bunch of mushrooms that spread all over the place a while back. I periodically pluck some of them out to try to get rid of them. I can't pull the whole rocks because I have to much other coral on them. And I think that either they are releasing a chemical when I pluck them or before I even do it. So I can change my GAC more often, I do it monthly now. Maybe every 3 weeks?

#2- I have a large amount of PO4 bound in my LR because when I first set up this tank I really didn't know what I was doing and didn't cure it properly. I cured it in the tank before I added anything for a month or 2. Which I don't think was long enough now, and I don't think I took it out and scrubbed and rinsed it enough. I only did that 3-4 times. Plus I used to over feed. Also I used to have a lot of brown wafer algae which went away once I started using BRS HC GFO. But maybe it was enough to get rid of the algae but I still have a lot of PO4, that just doesn't show up on test kits. I change my GFO out monthly also, but maybe its being exhausted way before that? So I could try adding more at a time or changing it out more often? Or should I break the whole tank down, cure the heck out of the LR or get Marco rock and start all over???

#3- I was just cleaning my sump and found what looked like rust stains on my return pump, and a piece of LR?? I think this is from the previous GFO that I used, which I think was fueling the brown wafer algae and causing a lot of problems. Could there be a ton of GFO fines causing problems some how? Or that the previous GFO was basically doing nothing when I thought it was?

#4- My skimmer it not that great. I have a DAS EX1, which is OK, but it doesn't produce a lot of skimmate. I think there is something wrong with the pump or something. I am planning on getting a good 1 soon.

#5- I have a 3"-4" DSB in my sump/fuge. Maybe it is fouled? Should I remove it and either just use Cheato or replace the sand with new sand? Its about 3 years old, and I can tell by looking at it that there is a good amount of detritus in it. Could that be the problem? I am willing to pull the whole thing and get a new sump if need be.


I don't know what else could be causing the problem. Its not that bad, but I am just angry because I was just starting to get over other problems and everything was doing great. Which mostly everything still is, but I don't want to start it all over.

HighlandReefer
10/17/2009, 01:49 PM
Luther,

White spots at the base of your coral, meaning the flesh has died away from the skeleton?

luther1200
10/17/2009, 01:51 PM
Yes, I can't figure out why though.

HighlandReefer
10/17/2009, 01:56 PM
Trying to eliminate some possibilities:

1) Do any of your fish nip at these areas, causing chunks of flesh missing?

2) If a disease (bacteria or fungi for example) normally you will see concentric rings at the outer circumfirance of the spots. In many cases you can see where the flesh is acutally being attacked at the outer edges. Sometimes a jelly like appearance or a distinct coloration change at the outer edge.

HighlandReefer
10/17/2009, 01:59 PM
If red bugs, you can see them if you look closely.

If other snails, urchans or whatever are feeding, then you will see just small areas of damage at first and there would be no concentric ring around the spots.

luther1200
10/17/2009, 02:04 PM
I don't think its red bugs, I looked at 1 unde a magnifying glass and didn't see any. I had a Flame Angle that used to nip but that was a long time ago, non of my fish fo now. There doesn't appear to be rings or jelly anywere either.

I don't have any urchins, but maybe some kind of small snails or something could be the cause. Its odd, because the rest of the frag will still have full PE and look great. But there is a small white spot at the base, I just noticed it, but have had it happen before. Its very slow usually. I have took pieces out and sealed the are with superglue and that has stopped it in the past. But I am just getting annoyed, because it hasn't happened in a while now, and I though I had it beat.



I really think its something about water quality, which is why I put the thread here. But it could be a pest I son't know about.

HighlandReefer
10/17/2009, 02:13 PM
Sealing the bad areas and a little extra sounds like a good idea to me to help prevent infection from spreading and/or from preventing a susceptible area for future infection. I would clean these areas before sealing them as best as possible.

FWIW, it does not sound like a water chemistry problem. It sounds more like something is eating the areas (snail or what have you) or possibly an infection like bacteria.

You might want to look at these areas under a powerful magnifying glass to see if you can see an edge or concentric ring at the outer parameters. In some cases it is very difficult to see them with the naked eye. If it is a viral infection you may not see any rings at all. Usually diseases will progress fairly rapidly, in that the damaged areas will grow in a uniform manner.

luther1200
10/17/2009, 02:29 PM
Thanks, I have a cheap "pocket microscope" that has 30x magnification. I will take a look at one with that and see what it looks like.


If it is some kind of infection is there anything I can do?

HighlandReefer
10/17/2009, 02:37 PM
Here is an example of a description of a coral bacterial disease. Most coral diseases have not been identified. It can be very difficult to ID diseases and they are more common then most hobbyists realize. FWIW, if it is a disease then using the crazy glue idea and removing dead or dieing tissue is probably your best tools. Of course you need to do this outside of the aquarium. Removing flesh and a little of the skeleton plus going beyound the visible damaged areas would be best.

Coral Disease Identification and Information
White Plague
http://www.coral.noaa.gov/coral_disease/white_plague.shtml

From this article:

White Plague >> Main

Disease Overview

Plague is characterized by a sharp line between apparently healthy coral tissue and freshly exposed coral skeleton. There is no obvious microbial band present. Plague is caused by the bacterial pathogen Aurantimonas coralicida, gen nov. sp. nov. (Denner et al., IJSEM, in press). Disease signs (rate and pattern of disease progression and virulence) vary between three distinct types. Plague Type I, documented in the 1970s and 1980s, starts at the sides of colonies, with tissue destruction at a rate of 3 mm/day. Six species were reported to be affected (Dustan, 1977, Dustan and Halas, 1987). Plague Type II, first documented in 1995, starts at the base of a coral colony and progresses upward, with tissue destruction up to 2 cm/day. A bleached zone between healthy tissue and exposed skeleton (<3 mm) may be present (Richardson et al. 1998a,b). Plague type III, first seen in 1999, starts on the sides or top of colonies and destroys tissue at high rates of dm/day. It is found on massive Montastraea annularis and Colpophyllia natans. Plague is currently epidemic throughout the Caribbean, and affects 33 sp. of Caribbean scleractinian corals (Weil et al, in press). The reservoir is not known.

http://www.coral.noaa.gov/coral_disease/graphics/wp2_sm.jpg

HighlandReefer
10/17/2009, 02:48 PM
I should have expounded on the rate that this particular disease progresses, at 3 mm/day. Watching you white spots for increases in size would be another possible indicator to rule out something eating your coral.

Secondary infections can complicate matters. ;)

luther1200
10/17/2009, 02:54 PM
Its odd, because sometimes it has been a slow steady rate, but on occasion it has just stopped on its own. I don't know if this matters or not, but the 3 that just started are all the same coral. They are different pieces of the same colony I fragged a while ago. 2 of them are close, but 1 is half way across the tank.

HighlandReefer
10/17/2009, 03:07 PM
A close-up picture which is focused would be interesting, to see what it looks like. ;)

luther1200
10/17/2009, 03:09 PM
Let me go try.

HighlandReefer
10/17/2009, 03:12 PM
The spots on the same coral adds to the clues. More likely a disease, since most animals will eat a variety of corals. This is not the case in all circumstances though.

luther1200
10/17/2009, 03:33 PM
This is the best I can do I think. But it actually looks like this one is stating to heal over,(knock on wood).

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q284/luther1200/yeloowMilli005-1.jpg

luther1200
10/17/2009, 03:41 PM
I tried to crop it and blow it up, but I think thats the max pixels for the site or something. Is there a way you can look at my photobucket pictures? Because in the editing softeware you can blow it up more than that.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q284/luther1200/yeloowMilli005-2-1.jpg

HighlandReefer
10/17/2009, 04:06 PM
The area on the coral you need to look at is the area I have circled in red:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2538/4020660218_50216b6220_o.jpg



Notice how the polyps in this area are shrinking and dieing. This is an indication of a disease like shown in the link I noted above.

luther1200
10/17/2009, 04:09 PM
Yes, those polyps do look worse than the rest now that you mention it. So the only thing I can do is glue over that area? Maybe a dip in TMPCC?

luther1200
10/17/2009, 04:11 PM
I do think you are right, but let's say just for the heck of it, that there was a high level of PO4 in the tank. What would you expect to happen? Would it be RTN or a case like this?

HighlandReefer
10/17/2009, 04:24 PM
In the case of high phoshate levels, which effects the calcium rate of deposition in coral skeleton, I would expect to see reduced total coral growth, especially in the actively growing part of the coral, the tips.

High phosphate levels, may make coral more susceptible to disease also.

I have to state here, that I have not seen any documented scientific pictures of coral that suffer from high phosphate levels. This is speculation on my part. ;)

luther1200
10/17/2009, 04:29 PM
Close up of tips. So if there was high PO4 you wouldn't expect to see the tips like this?

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q284/luther1200/yeloowMilli009.jpg

This is the whole colony from the other side.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q284/luther1200/yeloowMilli006.jpg


Thanks for taking the time to help. I know people ask these kinds of questions all the time. I really appreciate it.:rollface:

HighlandReefer
10/17/2009, 04:34 PM
I might expect results like you show in the above photo if the phosphate level was extremely high. Your phosphate levels are just above the recommended rate and may not show any defects in the coral tips.

HighlandReefer
10/17/2009, 04:35 PM
Other factors like nitrate levels over 30 ppm in addition with high phosphate levels can cause negative effects, perhaps like shown above in your last picture.

I have read some research that showed tip die back when the nitrates were high.

HighlandReefer
10/17/2009, 05:19 PM
Matt,

FWIW, I am not positive as to what is causing your problems. I have speculated on some possibilities above.

If the above two coral shown in your pictures were my coral, I would remove them from the tank and cut off well beyond the apparent problem areas like I circled and dispose of those parts. I would then seal the ends where cut, with super glue and frag them onto rock or plugs. Plugs or disks are more likely to be sterile then rock. The problem areas seem too wide spread to just apply supper glue to IMHO. Using a quarantine tank would be best if possible.

luther1200
10/17/2009, 05:49 PM
OK, I think thats whats I will do.

This all started about 2.5 years ago when I got a wild Stylophora colony. Everything was doing well, then I got that and it started doing exactly what is going on now. I eventually lost the colony because I was a Noobie and reluctant to frag it because I kept hoping it would heal. Just ignorance on my part. I believe that some disease or infection was on that colony and it is still in my system. Is that possible? And if it is possible is there any way to get rid of it? Say if I removed all Acro's for 6 weeks or something like you would do with Ich?

HighlandReefer
10/18/2009, 07:59 AM
I agree it seems to be an infection (my guess bacterial). The bacteria could be free floating in your water column. Bacteria can produce spores which will survive for extremely long periods of time. Once the bacteria enter into the flesh of the coral, they produce toxins which kill the coral slowly. This is what I believe is happening to your coral. There are no apparent exterior signs of them.

Other organisms, such as fungi and secondary bacterial infections will attack the surface of the coral and particularly any damaged areas. In these cases, you expect to see their activity on the surface, which your infestation does not show these characteristics. Viral infections are a whole different story.

The good news is that it seems that your infecting organism seems to only attack one specie of coral (at least at this time). I would remove the specie of coral that is being attacked completely from your system.

If you want to play around with trying to save this coral, I would frag it as mentioned above and keep it in a quarantine tank. Monitor it for a period of time and try to re-introduce it only if no signs of infection re-appear. Once you try re-introducing, you would have to monitor for new signs of disease. If the disease re-occurs, then you would definitely want to remove that specie of coral from your tank (meaning the organism is still in your tank).

luther1200
10/18/2009, 03:14 PM
I might try to remove all of that coral. I have a 12 gallon Aqupod I could use as a QT. I would just have to cycle it though. Unless I used my tank water doing a water change and some live rock I have in the fuge. I shouldn't get a cycle if i do that right?

HighlandReefer
10/18/2009, 05:59 PM
Keeping your quarantine simple by using your water change water and some rock from your sump might be the best way to go. Be careful not to feed your coral much and keep track of the nitrates. The tank is small enough that you should be able to manage with frequent water changes.

luther1200
10/18/2009, 07:12 PM
I will try to set it up soon. But the only problem now is, it only has PC lighting. I think I will have to get a cheap T5 fixture or a 150w MH pendant.

HighlandReefer
10/18/2009, 07:30 PM
One advantage to setting this tank up is that you can use it for future purchases. Using a quarantine tank for fish and coral can save a lot of head aches down the road. :)

luther1200
10/18/2009, 07:43 PM
Yea, I had always kind of planned on it but never did it. Maybe this is the kick I need to actually do it :).

HighlandReefer
10/18/2009, 07:47 PM
Matt,

Keep us posted on your results. I am interested to see how it works out for you. Good Luck. :)

luther1200
10/24/2009, 08:42 PM
Well I took out 1 of the frags to closely inspect it under my cheapo 30x "pocket microscope" and I believe I saw red bugs. But they were super small, how small exactly are red bugs? And I think I read you can dose interceptor to kill them? Does this kill the eggs also or do you have to dose it a few times? And the biggest question how do you get it if you don't own a dog?

HighlandReefer
10/25/2009, 06:08 AM
Melev has a good page on his site regarding redbugs, pictures and treatment recommendations:

http://www.melevsreef.com/redbugs.html

luther1200
10/25/2009, 12:17 PM
Thanks. I should have some Interceptor next week some time.

luther1200
10/25/2009, 12:28 PM
I have been doing some reading, and it says that they only infest smooth skinned Acro's. Is that 1 in the picture considered smooth skinned?

Edit: I did some more reading and it said they are just primarily on smooth skinned acro's but have been seen on others, even some LPS.

HighlandReefer
10/25/2009, 12:58 PM
FWIW, I would not be surprised if redbugs attack many species of coral and it has not been reported at this time due to their small size.

This article has more details regarding redbugs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_acro_bug

From it:

"Tegastes acroporanus, also known as the red acro bug for the red coloration on its body and for its prey, Acropora, are copepods in the family Tegastidae. Red acro bugs are parasitic on the hard coral reef building corals in the genus Acropora, and feed on these corals exclusively. Though it has been found on all types of Acropora, it seems to be less predominant on species with large, “hairy” polyps such as the species A. millepora.[citation needed] Being a copepod, they creatures small, and many times can be difficult to see with the naked eye. However, their existence on a suspected affected Acropora can be determined either by looking for the typical symptoms of T. acroporanus or by shining a flashlight on the suspected Acropora and looking for tiny fluorescent specks, caused by the light bouncing off the red pigment in the bugs' bodies.

When on an Acropora they remain, for the most part, stationary and will spend most of their time consuming the tissue of the acropora. They are very difficult to dislodge once stationary, using their appendages to latch onto the Acropora and are not removable even by suction or strong water movement, which may in turn, damage the Acropora. A small number will leave a coral if the coral is disturbed and will swim in the water column, looking for another host.

First reports of this aquatic pest came in the early 2000s and the infestation sped quickly throughout the marine keeping hobby around the world with the popularity of coral fragment trading.[citation needed] Due to the potential threat of this parasitic copepod to the hobby, many different treatments have been tried and testing through the years and it is now possible to stop or at least slow the infestation of T. acroporanus.

While Tegastes acroporanus or the red acro bug is a parasite on Acropora corals, it does not always kill the coral. The overall health of the host prior to infestation, the overall health of the aquarium system, and the degree of colonization will contribute to whether or not an affected Acropora can withstand the infestation.

There are several possible signs of an infestation of red acro bugs:

reduced extension of polyps and/or the coral tissue
change in coloration, typically involving a loss of colored pigments from tips and branches, and a change to a more uniform brown color
reduced or stalled growth rates
loss of tissue pigmentation including the loss of zooxanthellae pigmentation resulting in a bleached appearance
local or colony-wide tissue loss, possibly as a result of colonization stress rather than from direct consumption of tissue by predation
death of the colony."

luther1200
10/25/2009, 01:34 PM
Those symptoms are exactly what has been going on. Even a few months ago when i was having problems, but with other corals. And I dipped and superglued the edges and haven't had any more issue's until now. And back then I had added and Efflo frag that was killed in about a week. That would be a smooth skinned acro, right? So that would explain why it was the only 1 and the fastest 1 to see symptoms. Hopefully this is whats going on, since it has fairly good treatment. I started a thrad in reef discusion,because I bought Interceptor for very small dogs, because my tank is only a 65. But I have read in all the articles (after I bought the other ones) you are supposed to get the ones for large dogs.

Basically the large dog pills have 23mg/tablet-Milbemycin Oxime, the ones I bought have 2.3mg/tablet. The large dog pills are about 1 gram the rest is filler. I am not sure how big the small dog pills are. The recommeded dose is 25/mg-per tablet/10 gallons of tank water. So could I just use 250mg/tablet-per 10 gallons?

Since the main ingredient is just 2.3mg instead of 23mg couldn't I just use 10x more?

HighlandReefer
10/25/2009, 01:41 PM
As far as adding the total amount of active ingredient per gallon of tank water, what you state makes sense. What else may be in the pills that might effect the outcome, I don't know anything about. ;)

luther1200
10/25/2009, 01:55 PM
Thats what I was worried about. It seems like the smaller ones will also have 10x the amount of filler. I guess I will have to find out what that is, or try to find out if anybody has done this before. If not I will get the correct ones, its not worth the risk if I don't know for sure.

HighlandReefer
10/25/2009, 02:00 PM
I agree. You have a lot of money tied up in your system. Dosing chemicals to kill redbugs or any organism in your tank should not be taken lightly. ;)