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Vicki'sTank
10/19/2009, 11:33 PM
Hey guys! Love R/C !! I have been buying distilled water for my 45 gal. tank. I have only had it up and running for aprox. two months. I have a Rena Xp2 canister filter, if I have a lg. bag of carbon in the filter (and the water flowing thru. it is strong) couldnt I use water from my tap? The carbon in the Rena filter could act like a water purifier......right? I know there's got to be a catch, this would just be too ez. Anybody doing this?

Billybeau1
10/20/2009, 12:26 AM
Water from the tap is not a good idea. While the carbon may absorb chlorine and chlorimes, it will not remove metals that are in the tap water.

There is no short cut to using tap water. One of the best investments you can make in reefkeeping is an ro/di water filter. Although the initial cost up front can be pricey, the benefits are enormous.

Flipper62
10/20/2009, 01:21 AM
Water from the tap is not a good idea. While the carbon may absorb chlorine and chlorimes, it will not remove metals that are in the tap water.

There is no short cut to using tap water. One of the best investments you can make in reefkeeping is an ro/di water filter. Although the initial cost up front can be pricey, the benefits are enormous.

Billybeau1.......I just dont get it. We all know that a RO/DI unit is one of the most important items to have for a Reef tank. Its one of the items that you calculate in the cost when setting up a tank.

Why would anyone want to add $1000,00 worth of corals to their tank......but then say.......Can I use Tap water ?? I can't afford a RO/DI unit.

Randy Holmes-Farley
10/20/2009, 04:40 AM
If you have chloramine in the water, carbon will leave ammonia. It also will not do much to bind phosphate and nitrate. I'm not sure how well it would do removing copper. I'd look to an RO/DI system rather than just carbon. :)

vegaskid11
10/20/2009, 08:47 AM
There are a ton of used RO systems out there to be had. Check craigs list or local fish/reef club forums for a used system. I bet you could get one for under 50 dollars. Most membranes are good for up to two years. The standard for prefilter canister is 10". The type of housings you get does not matter. Just what goes in the housings. You dont need a fancy name brand unit. Any generic unit will do. Just pressure it up to check for leaks and then look to replace the pre filters with a sedimant and carbon. More than likely the membrane itself will be sufficient for you to get going. Just pick up a inexpensive TDS meter and you can see the performance. hth

look here for more info . www.thefilterguys.biz

Vicki'sTank
10/20/2009, 09:16 AM
Why would anyone want to add $1000,00 worth of corals to their tank......but then say.......Can I use Tap water ?? I can't afford a RO/DI unit.[/QUOTE]

Ok.... Im new to saltwater and had a question so I asked. I did NOT say I couldnt afford a RO/DI unit. You shouldn make someone feel bad for asking a question. :sad1:

Boomer
10/20/2009, 09:51 AM
GAC will remove many metals well and is a common use for it other industries. There is even GRC (Gold Recovery Carbon) and it is well know for removing Iron. GAC is how we remove copper form treated tanks and copper test kits pretty much always show that. However, this is ionic copper or Cupramine but some of the others like Copper Safe are more difficult to remove with carbon. There are many paper and in books on the ability of GAC to remove heavy metals . For the most part adsorption increases as pH and temp increase. I will add that Rena carbon is pretty much a crap carbon.

I did run tanks for over 30 years on tap water, but that is Lake Superior tap water, some of the worlds cleanest water there is but I also did 90 % / month. However, I'm with the others, get a RO/DI.

From my GAC book on HM

http://books.google.com/books?id=juWnY_9VkCoC&pg=PA299&lpg=PA299&dq=removal+of+heavy+metals+with+activated+carbon&source=bl&ots=sEhjexqOO4&sig=ZHpsndkxdg56_cgTv25tSWT9JiQ&hl=en&ei=Fd7dSsPEN47CMIbHxPUN&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CDsQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=removal%20of%20heavy%20metals%20with%20activated%20carbon&f=false

LovinLife
10/20/2009, 11:10 AM
Vicki, its like that on these forums..unfortunately. Dont even try to defend yourself when something like this happens or you will end up attacked on all sides. Take it from someone who knows. You will be accused of disrespect when you make a statement that could be taken many ways, but it will be taken in the worst way....The same thing could be said by someone carrying a high number under their name, but it is laughed at, high fived, kudoed, and all that silliness. Its a dominance thing....Drip sugar and honey to someone that twists what you say and you too will be accepted into the "clique".

Asking questions is the best way to knowledge, but I dont know....many people see that as a way to direct any negative emotions they may have about a particular thing rather than re-directing it where it belongs.



Many times when something is typed, it will be misconstrued as rude, disrespectful and the like because apparently word hasnt gotten around to forums that emotions cant possibly be translated with typed words so many a person has gone misunderstood and not even given the benefit of the doubt about something they have typed. Its a darned if you do and darned if you dont....me? I say it how Im feeling it and if someone gets bent out of shape about it and chooses to take it as the negative way of looking at it, well, the way I see it is that person has issues that need not bleed over to me.

I use tap water in my tanks....I dont use no RO/DI or anything like it and my tanks do just fine. If you start to see a decline in things you place in your tank, I SUGGEST testing the distilled water to see if it has high levels of something, and if it doesnt, I SUGGEST not changing it. The cause is somewhere else. This is MY opinion and my experience in reef keeping....so before I get flack from the masses, remember I said this.

It isnt always necessary to use RO or RO/DI..This is FACT.....it depends on the quality of the water source. I dont know why people push those things like it is the ONLY route to take. People really should suggest what to use rather than state its a must. I GAVE away a brand new RO unit that cost me 175.00 because I found that what people were telling me wasnt necessarily true IN MY CASE.....you may very well be in a situation to have to use one, and maybe not. But just because it is what the majority of people use, for whatever reason, doesnt mean you will automatically have to use one....

Dont ever be afraid to ask something even after someone comes along and shoots your questions down in whatever way, SHOULD THIS HAPPEN. I didnt learn how to have multiple successful hassle free REEF tanks by allowing hot heads to discourage me from digging deeper for the info it took to get them this way.

Oh, and I didnt say any of you were hot heads, so dont even try to make anything out of that. There are hot heads that will do this, those are who I speak of.

See Vicki, disclaimers are a good thing on any forum.

Hammsreefbeer
10/20/2009, 11:35 AM
Vicki, its like that on these forums..unfortunately. Dont even try to defend yourself when something like this happens or you will end up attacked on all sides. Take it from someone who knows. You will be accused of disrespect when you make a statement that could be taken many ways, but it will be taken in the worst way....The same thing could be said by someone carrying a high number under their name, but it is laughed at, high fived, kudoed, and all that silliness. Its a dominance thing....Drip sugar and honey to someone that twists what you say and you too will be accepted into the "clique".

Asking questions is the best way to knowledge, but I dont know....many people see that as a way to direct any negative emotions they may have about a particular thing rather than re-directing it where it belongs.



Many times when something is typed, it will be misconstrued as rude, disrespectful and the like because apparently word hasnt gotten around to forums that emotions cant possibly be translated with typed words so many a person has gone misunderstood and not even given the benefit of the doubt about something they have typed. Its a darned if you do and darned if you dont....me? I say it how Im feeling it and if someone gets bent out of shape about it and chooses to take it as the negative way of looking at it, well, the way I see it is that person has issues that need not bleed over to me.

I use tap water in my tanks....I dont use no RO/DI or anything like it and my tanks do just fine. If you start to see a decline in things you place in your tank, I SUGGEST testing the distilled water to see if it has high levels of something, and if it doesnt, I SUGGEST not changing it. The cause is somewhere else. This is MY opinion and my experience in reef keeping....so before I get flack from the masses, remember I said this.

It isnt always necessary to use RO or RO/DI..This is FACT.....it depends on the quality of the water source. I dont know why people push those things like it is the ONLY route to take. People really should suggest what to use rather than state its a must. I GAVE away a brand new RO unit that cost me 175.00 because I found that what people were telling me wasnt necessarily true IN MY CASE.....you may very well be in a situation to have to use one, and maybe not. But just because it is what the majority of people use, for whatever reason, doesnt mean you will automatically have to use one....

Dont ever be afraid to ask something even after someone comes along and shoots your questions down in whatever way, SHOULD THIS HAPPEN. I didnt learn how to have multiple successful hassle free REEF tanks by allowing hot heads to discourage me from digging deeper for the info it took to get them this way.

Oh, and I didnt say any of you were hot heads, so dont even try to make anything out of that. There are hot heads that will do this, those are who I speak of.

See Vicki, disclaimers are a good thing on any forum.

"get down julie brown"
oh no,here they come...........run......IBTL:bounce3:

Randy Holmes-Farley
10/20/2009, 12:16 PM
Lovinlife, perhaps your criticisms apply to other forums, but the reef chemistry forum is always science based and anything posted here is subjected to scrutiny to be sure it is accurate. It is very Darwinian, with anything posted needing to stand up to criticism. I agree that the post above was a bit harsh, but that's not a reason to bash the whole forum.

We welcome the most basic and newbie chemsitry questions without making fun of them. Over and over and over again. So please do not bring in baggage from other experiences you may have had elsewhere and necessarily assume it applies here. We try very, very hard to be as helpful as we can, and I think if you hang around here, you'll find the atmosphere here quite different than other forums at RC or elsewhere.

As to the topic at hand, I've repeated hundreds of times in this forum that tap water works for some and not for others, and it is a risk that one might or might not choose to take. We gave clear scientific reasons why one might not want to treat tap water with carbon only. It is great for you to disagree, but let's focus on the science and not your personal feelings about online forums and emotions. :D

HighlandReefer
10/20/2009, 12:29 PM
“Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.”
Benjamin Franklin

:)

LovinLife
10/20/2009, 12:41 PM
I rest my case

Randy Holmes-Farley
10/20/2009, 12:54 PM
Here's an article detailing concerns about what is present in tap water in many locations using data supplied by the water companies. If you had some of them at elevated levels, activated carbon may not remove them adequately (chloramine leaving ammonia, for example, or any of the nutrients nitrate, silicate or phosphate).

Tap Water in Reef Aquaria
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/chem.htm

Vicki'sTank
10/20/2009, 01:08 PM
Thanks Lovin Life! Like everyone on here I have read that RO/DI is best. But you can use distilled and like I wrote this is what Im using. I use carbon in my freshwater tank so it just got me to thinking. Im not a chemist, therefore I came here with my question.
We all love/enjoy our saltwater aquariums. Most of you here know much more than me but at one time there was a starting point for you too. If you cant give helpful advice or suggestions then dont wright anything at all. GREAT~ Now I sound like my Mother!

Boomer
10/20/2009, 01:13 PM
I rest my case

What case you have none. All I see from you from your first post is bashing. Don't be judging one post by all.

many people see that as a way to direct any negative emotions they may have about a particular thing rather than re-directing it where it belongs.

I say it how Im feeling it and if someone gets bent out of shape about it and chooses to take it as the negative way of looking at it, well, the way I see it is that person has issues that need not bleed over to me.

Please stand in front of mirror, you are one of them :)

Boomer
10/20/2009, 01:17 PM
Vicki '

If you cant give helpful advice or suggestions then dont wright anything at all. GREAT~ Now I sound like my Mother!

Yes, you are 100 % correct :D

LovinLife
10/20/2009, 01:55 PM
Mother knows best......=)~ Whether we want to admit it or not, right?

Just grab you some test kits or have someone test the water for you and see what it contains....Its more than I done with my tap water. I didnt have the issues everyone else is having, so I seen no need in doing it. When you find out whats in the water, then do what needs to be done.....but just because someone or the vast majority of people use one thing or another doesnt mean it applies to you. Im proof of that.

Some are too quick to jump the gun without knowing what a person has in their water to even ask if it has been tested. They go straight to telling what HAS to be or what MUST be done rather than starting from the bottom and working up to the equipment part of the hobby. For all anyone knows, the water is fine, even if it IS tap water, and go out and buy all this stuff to treat the water, yet the problem remains but only after spending money that could have been better spent on something to address where the real issue is. Its always gotta be the water.... no it doesnt. I refuse to accept that I am the only one using tap water and able to successfully keep a reef tank. Im willing to bet that more peoples water is fine too, they just dont know it because they have all of this "stuff" on their tanks to credit their good water to when it probably isnt whats making the water itself good, just masking where it is really coming from. I just wonder how many people tested their water FIRST, then went out and bought that bull of a piece of equipment......probably not many. Who knows what piece of equipment is doing what on some tanks? So many twists and turns of pipes and containers and media and such...........Stop the world, I wanna get off!


There are exceptions to every rule, even in saltwater stuff....I am one such exception, apparently, or so Ive been labeled ....but I wont apologize for it just because I am the exception, rather, I feel very fortunate that I have the capabilities to be that exception. Yes, I do beam with pride about it too.......=)

Nothing wrong in someone sharing their success either....just because it isnt what everyone else is doing doesnt make it any less right....just less acceptable. But thats ok, Im better for it in my wallet....got lots of money to spend on corals and such that its not spent on equipment.

Im not here to "convert" anyone. I am, however, speaking up and say that all this other way is not the ONLY way to do it and do it right

Happy Reefing Vick............=) Wishing you all the best in your ventures

Randy Holmes-Farley
10/20/2009, 02:09 PM
For all anyone knows, the water is fine,

It might be fine. We all agree. But it also may not be. You might not be as familiar as us with the many cases that show up here with big problems from tap water.

Just grab you some test kits or have someone test the water for you and see what it contains....

That is a fine suggestion, but it has practical limitations. What do you suggest she test for and how? Buying kits for lots of things will be pricey, even if you find ones that are suitable.

We can probably rule out chloramine for now as the Greeley water supply appears to not use it, but other things remain a concern.

One problem with that suggestion is that you may well not be able to detect levels of copper that are too high. How high do you think is OK? Waiting until you have a problem from copper may be too late, as the rock and sand may become copper-coated and hard to make suitable for inverts.

Billybeau1
10/20/2009, 02:30 PM
You are the exception to the rule if, as you say, your tank is running great. There is science to back up the fact that your tank should not be doing so well. Science is the key word here. Years and years of research. By people who have a vast knowledge of marine water chemistry.

We are giving the original poster good solid advice on the question she posted. Advice given by people with years and years of experience in water chemistry.

For you to come in here and sling around all of your accusations about the members of the forum is simply wrong. You obviously have not spent much time in this forum.

I too agree the post that started this mess was a little harsh but could have been taken many ways IMO. Like someone else said, there is little emotion when typing words in a forum.

I've seen you in other forums posting about your unusual practices, methods and successes. If you are proud of that, great. I'm glad you are having success. But saying to a new reefer that your system works and can work for them is just wrong. Science and research says otherwise.

We are not selling anything here. We give knowledgeable advice to anyone who posts a question in the Chemistry Forum. Based on Science.

We are proud of our forum. People come here for answers. I can think of maybe two threads that have been closed in this forum in 6 years. Lets not make this the third.

We got your message. It works for you. Now lets move on please. :)

David Grigor
10/20/2009, 02:34 PM
It's easy to run the numbers on how much your spending on Distilled and how long it would take to recoupe your investment. In many cases, 6 months to a year, you've already paid for it. Even more so from a convience point of view from not having to lug the jugs around.

If your water quality is good in your area, well that means your RO/DI filters will last even longer which is good news as well.

When selecting the membrane rejection rate is critical to the overall cost in filters especially the DI. A 90% may sound good but can increase you di replacement filters by 3-5X depending on the water quality of your tap.

Randy Holmes-Farley
10/20/2009, 02:47 PM
FWIW, from their 2008 report, 10% of the homes in Greeley have copper above 0.21 ppm. IMO, that is too much if you are one of those 10%. Will carbon treatment drop that adequately? Maybe. Maybe not.

http://www.greeleygov.com/Water/Documents/ccr2008-9.pdf

LovinLife
10/20/2009, 03:09 PM
So because there is a chance it may NOT be fine, people just go on and assume it isnt and buy all this stuff they may NOT need if they just get the water tested? Its not like they are expected to go spend 300 on tests....why wouldnt someone test the water first THEN act accordingly?

What to test for? Well, I would first start with the more common things people are so concerned about. If copper is one of those, then test for it. Myself? Ive never tested even phosphates until last week....5 yrs after my tanks were going....and the phosphates read .25 Pretty dog gone good for a 5 yr old system that sees all of 4 water changes a year

Ive never tested for copper, dont know anything about it, so I cant say what levels are ok. I either dont have it in my water or it is of a low amount that doesnt affect anything.

My fresh water stuff is no different. In fact I never use conditioner when I top those off. Water is always clear, no algae on the sides, rocks or anything else, dont change the water, but I do have plants in them....this is the key to why no algae because the plants compete with the algae for the food, the plants win. I stir the rocks in the bottom of the ponds and the filter takes it right on out,....what the crayfish and snails dont eat...people advise against a lot of things with freshwater same as saltwater, and just as with saltwater, I go the complete opposite and can keep more, longer than those that use all that equipment and such on their ponds, tanks or whatever

Hey, by all means use what ya gotta use, but how do you know you need it if you havent tested for it

How many times Ive seen it said just on here........dont dose what you havent tested for................Ok, same can be said about equipment.....why use what you havent tested before hand to have to need?

Its really simple....good water can be gotten from other places besides a man made machine....some have it, others dont....how will one know if they have it if they havent bothered to find out? Because someone told them they didnt have it just by the act of advising against using it.

The ocean water isnt pure...do you really think the ocean is copper free? Phosphate free? How many ships and ocean liners and barges have went down over the history of their inventions? All the trash thats been dumped into the waters....Coral and fish do not come from pure water, untainted by chemicals and such. They have to contend with so much more than we really know about, Im sure.

How about those who DO have RO units but yet they STILL have issues with water quality? Whats to blame then? I dont have any of that, any issues of any kind, and I use tap water. Now I know that the water in my county is not coming from some special hole somewhere......Its not just the fact that Im using tap water, its what I do as a whole that makes my tanks successful.

HighlandReefer
10/20/2009, 03:20 PM
LovinLife,

You don't live near Paul B do ya? :)

Randy Holmes-Farley
10/20/2009, 03:41 PM
Boy, you really have a bee in your bonnet over this issue, don't you? Unfortunately, you lack the facts to support your assertions and do not really know what we recommend. Did you read my article linked above where I suggested testing of tap water as a possibility ???, or my suggestions of how to avoid copper if you CHOOSE to use tap water?

So because there is a chance it may NOT be fine, people just go on and assume it isnt and buy all this stuff they may NOT need if they just get the water tested? Its not like they are expected to go spend 300 on tests....why wouldnt someone test the water first THEN act accordingly?

Copper comes from your own pipes. It comes from corrosion. The amount in the water depends on many factors, such as the time the water has been in your pipes, the pH, and the presence of other ions that either passify the copper pipes or help dissolve it.

IF you know that those things are constant, then one test will suffice to say whether it is OK (assuming you know what level is OK; do you? what level would you tell her is acceptable?).

IF you do not know that those things are constant, then a single test will not suffice to say it is OK. That seems the very likely scenario to me. Multiple tests over time may be necessary.

Oh, and by the way, a hobby kit is not likely adequate to test these low levels of copper accurately. You probably need to send it out for testing. Expensive.

That, in a nutshell is why we usually recommend RO/DI instead of either taking a risk, or following your suggesting of testing for everything that might be a problem. In the article I linked above, I discuss testing for copper:

from it:

"Based on the data, if your home is among the highest in your district, your water likely will be unacceptable. Since most aquarists do not know the copper levels in their water, it can be a risk to use it. If you do choose to use it, there are some simple actions that you can take to help:

1. Test the water for copper with a test kit. Some of the kits available to hobbyists ( Seachem and Hach LP Cube, #21938-00), for example) claim to detect copper at fairly low levels (10 ppb for Seachem and 50 ppb for Hach). Whether those limits are attained in practice or not, I do not know. But they likely will easily detect the very high levels in some tap water (500-1000+ ppb copper). Thus they can at least be used to screen out the worst offenders.

2. Let the water run for 5-10 minutes before collecting it. This will greatly reduce the likelihood of getting a high copper (or lead) level from water that has been sitting in your pipes for an extended period of time."


You can see what is written that we do not just force everyone to get an RO/DI. We also provide suggestions of what to do if you do not use one.



The ocean water isnt pure...do you really think the ocean is copper free?

Of course not. But I do know what levels of copper are in seawater, and you apparently do not. Typical seawater levels are 380 parts per trillion, which is more than 500-fold lower than 10% of the tap water spouts in Greeley, Colorado.

What is seawater
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/rhf/index.php

Phosphate free?

No again. But I do know what it is, and it is far lower than is present in many water supplies. I discuss that in the article too.

How about those who DO have RO units but yet they STILL have issues with water quality? Whats to blame then?


Hey, I've got a doctor and a health plan. I’ve even invented pharmaceuticals myself. Does that prevent me from ever getting sick?

Of course not. It helps, just like RO/DI can help. A doc will not make you live forever, and an RO/DI will not bullet-proof a reef tank.

bertoni
10/20/2009, 03:58 PM
Okay, let's try to keep the conversation civil.

Using tapwater is a risk. Some people are fine with it for years, and then lose a tank to some maintenance additives added by the water treatment company. Others have troubles from the start. The primary problem is that many chemicals that won't harm humans in the concentrations found in tapwater will be very toxic to reef animals. Copper, zinc, and ammonia are some examples.

Distilled water generally is fine. It can be inconvenient and expensive over time, but it'll work perfectly well.

LovinLife
10/20/2009, 04:02 PM
no bee in my bonnet...why you say that? Because I am asking questions about what you and others are saying? Here I thought this is what boards are for. Im telling you what I do with my tanks, and Im getting told that what I am doing is not going to produce anything but negative, how it isnt possible to do what I do according to science and so on. Just as I wont and dont want to change yoru minds about how you do things, your "science" wont change how I do things because I am just as successful without all of that "science" stuff.......Science says it, soit must be....I guess Im imagining healthy coral and fish.

Nope, no bee in my bonnet....Im defending what I know works just as you are what works for you

HighlandReefer
10/20/2009, 04:24 PM
LovinLife,

I am enjoying your posts. ;)

Do you have a current picture of your 5+ year old tank that you can share with us?

Mike O'Brien
10/20/2009, 04:28 PM
Pure drinking water is nice too. I think we can all agree that we should be drinking lots of good clean water, and that the water is tainted. Randy's pharmaceuticals and such. LOL

bertoni
10/20/2009, 04:35 PM
Okay, the posts have reached the point of zero useful information. Thread closed.