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Joel A
10/21/2009, 08:56 PM
so i'm building my own rimless, starfire 100 gallon tank. The dimensions will be 48x24x20. I got quoted for glass today, and i'm wondering from anyone who might have experience or might have an idea about this sort of thing if this seems like a good price.


$475.00 for:
1x 48x24 regular float glass
1x 23x20 regular float glass
1x 48x20 regular float glass
1x 48x20 starfire glass
1x 23x20 starfire glass
all 1/2" think, with the top rim of the rimless tank polished, and the vertical sides "ground".

Seem like a good price?


Thanks.

A Reef Scene
10/21/2009, 09:05 PM
A good read on building a glass tank

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/27814-building-75g-all-glass-tank.html

Joel A
10/21/2009, 09:07 PM
funny that you linked that.. i've seen that thread before many times and actually met that guy. I used to be a planted freshwater discus hobbyist like him. ;) Amazing tank though isn't it?

uncleof6
10/21/2009, 09:11 PM
so i'm building my own rimless, starfire 100 gallon tank. The dimensions will be 48x24x20. I got quoted for glass today, and i'm wondering from anyone who might have experience or might have an idea about this sort of thing if this seems like a good price.


$475.00 for:
1x 48x24 regular float glass
1x 23x20 regular float glass
1x 48x20 regular float glass
1x 48x20 starfire glass
1x 23x20 starfire glass
all 1/2" think, with the top rim of the rimless tank polished, and the vertical sides "ground".

Seem like a good price?


Thanks.

Humm, yeah it seems like a good price, considering the tank acutally calls for 13.40mm sides, and 17.18 bottom, so standard sizes are 15mm and 19mm.

Jim

Joel A
10/21/2009, 09:16 PM
Humm, yeah it seems like a good price, considering the tank acutally calls for 13.40mm sides, and 17.18 bottom, so standard sizes are 15mm and 19mm.

Jim

wait so you're saying the bottom needs 3/4" glass? I was under the understanding that i could easily construct the whole tank out of 1/2"? (I talked to a local tank maker and that's what he said he'd do.)

uncleof6
10/21/2009, 10:29 PM
wait so you're saying the bottom needs 3/4" glass? I was under the understanding that i could easily construct the whole tank out of 1/2"? (I talked to a local tank maker and that's what he said he'd do.)

Half inch is a little thin for a rimless this size. This is not only a function of bowing, but also a question of the width of the seams. You do not need 19mm (3/4") glass on the bottom, but 15mm would be the minimum. As long as the bottom is well supported, however the seam would be a bit thin, considering the pressure is the greatest at the bottom of the tank. You could also use 14mm glass if you can get it. Just as a reality check, the numbers I come up with, coincide with Glass cages and also A.O. Myself, I would not trust a rimless to just any tank builder, but a builder that builds these type tanks all the time. There is a safe way, and a marginal way to build tanks.

Regards,

Jim

B.friend
10/22/2009, 12:16 AM
Well my tank is rimless, 36" BY 36'' and 25'' Tall. I put it together once and redid it because I was not happy but it held fine. The Whole tank is 1/2 glass~ And for building the tank I used Dow Corning 995 The same structural silicone Most High End Glass Tank Manufacture's

uncleof6
10/22/2009, 12:48 AM
Well my tank is rimless, 36" BY 36'' and 25'' Tall. I put it together once and redid it because I was not happy but it held fine. The Whole tank is 1/2 glass~ And for building the tank I used Dow Corning 995 The same structural silicone Most High End Glass Tank Manufacture's


Actually, the high end tank builders use RTV108 , (information source: GE 2004, and Momentive 2009-- I am sure it could have changed in the last several months....) as it is stronger. 995 = 350 psi, RTV108 = 400 psi. Also the 995 is not recommended for surfaces in contact with food, medical or pharmaceutical applications-- which means it is not NON - toxic. I am certain some tank builder out there is using 995. And a high end tank manufacturer would use 5/8" glass for the sides, and 7/8" for the bottom.

Regards,

Jim

Joel A
10/22/2009, 05:06 AM
when glass cages quoted me this tank the said it would be constructed of all 1/2" glass... so did miracles i believe?

Not saying that what you're saying about using 3/4" on the bottom is wrong, just curious as to where exactly you're getting that information?

ycrazyy
10/22/2009, 06:09 AM
I think that uncleof6 is trying to get you the maximum safety factor for your tank. I am sure that you could build the tank out of all 1/2" glass, but what he is saying is that it won't be the safest tank around. He is really knowledgeable about glass thicknesses and adhesives (if you look around, some may say he's an expert). As to where he gets his knowledge? Probably an engineer who ran all of the numbers.

Joel A
10/22/2009, 09:14 AM
I think that uncleof6 is trying to get you the maximum safety factor for your tank. I am sure that you could build the tank out of all 1/2" glass, but what he is saying is that it won't be the safest tank around. He is really knowledgeable about glass thicknesses and adhesives (if you look around, some may say he's an expert). As to where he gets his knowledge? Probably an engineer who ran all of the numbers.

ok, i'll believe him, i just hadn't been told that yet =).

so you recommend 15mm for all of the vertical panels and 19mm for the bottom panel? Also, what is the best Black silicone around to use?

Joel A
10/22/2009, 09:24 AM
another couple questions i have..

could i go 26" front to back without any structural problems? I think i could, because my understanding is the only time you have to increase glass thickness is if you increase height, but maybe that's wrong?

I'm thinking 26" front to back would be cool so that i could use a piece of black acrylic to make a "false wall" and hide all of my overflow and return plumbing back there.. I'm thinking that might be easier than building my own corner overflow?

uncleof6
10/22/2009, 11:59 AM
when glass cages quoted me this tank the said it would be constructed of all 1/2" glass... so did miracles i believe?

Not saying that what you're saying about using 3/4" on the bottom is wrong, just curious as to where exactly you're getting that information?


Based on safety factor of 7.6 (roughly double that for a equivalent sized tank with the seams in compression, rather than tension-- a rimmed tank) The model calls for 13.40mm glass, and 13.40mm glass can be used for all sides and bottom, however a thicker glass on the bottom would make the tank stronger.

The closest STANDARD thicknesses, are 12mm and 15mm. 12mm = .4724" and 15mm = .5905" 13.40mm = .5276" so all of these thicknesses are roughly 1/2." Glass can be had in 13 and 14mm, and would use those before the 15mm. 13 and 14mm might be hard to get over the counter.

So basically, this a "wobbler" tank. So I recommend maximum safety, hence 14 or 15mm glass, so i go up.

This is calculated on the longest panels for the tank. What happens when you make a change in the front to back dimension from 24 - 26": The side thickness remains the same, however the bottom thickness increases. The bottom does not have to be thicker than the sides, if the bottom is well supported, however it does improve the safety factor.

The bottom line would be is your tank going to come apart and/or break if you use 12mm glass? I don't think so, not in and of itself. Safety factor is to compensate for variations in materials, construction tolerances, etc (in other words quality) with the tank. In other words who puts it together, and what they use to build it.

RTV103 (black) silicone can be obtained from Grainger for around 10 bucks a cartridge.

Jim

Joel A
10/22/2009, 04:16 PM
thanks for all the help Jim.

Few more quick questions if you don't mind...

so just for clarification, if i went 26" front to back could i still use 15mm on the vertical panes and 19mm on the bottom pane, or would the bottom pane need to be increased even further?

Also, when building a tank, do you sit all of the vertical panes on the bottom pane, or is the bottom pane encased around the 4 vertical panes. I assume that the vertical panels rest on the bottom pane, making it so my tank would actually be 20.75" tall instead of 20" I've seen different recommendations different places.. so what's the consensus say, should i have all of the vertical panes rest on the bottom pane, or construct it some other way?

Thanks.

uncleof6
10/22/2009, 05:12 PM
thanks for all the help Jim.

Few more quick questions if you don't mind...

so just for clarification, if i went 26" front to back could i still use 15mm on the vertical panes and 19mm on the bottom pane, or would the bottom pane need to be increased even further?

Also, when building a tank, do you sit all of the vertical panes on the bottom pane, or is the bottom pane encased around the 4 vertical panes. I assume that the vertical panels rest on the bottom pane, making it so my tank would actually be 20.75" tall instead of 20" I've seen different recommendations different places.. so what's the consensus say, should i have all of the vertical panes rest on the bottom pane, or construct it some other way?

Thanks.

The side safety factor will not decrease, unless the front to back dimension becomes the "longest" dimension. So what is good for the longest dimension, is also good for the shorter dimension, as pressure at any given point in the tank, is equal in all directions, and increases with depth. Increasing the length of a panel, decreases the pressure required to deflect the panel, at the center, but the decrease is less, than the pressure increase with depth, so it is less significant. If that makes sense to you.

Affect on the bottom panel:

Increasing the front to back dimension, will have the same effect on the bottom, as increasing the length of a side, and would be easier to deflect at the same pressure. However, this would not have as significant of an affect, as would increasing the height of the water column, which would increase the pressure. Two inches is not enough to necessitate and increase in the bottom panel thickness.

There is some debate on sides on bottom vs sides around bottom, but it is not a very strong debate. IMHO, i think it is easier for a first timer to build sides on top of the bottom, but that is about the only advantage to it.

Sides around the bottom, bottom flush, is the same strength, but a little trickier to build, but not much. Bottom raised inside the sides, however, is trickier to build, and requires the bottom glass to be thicker.


Jim

scolley
10/22/2009, 05:23 PM
funny that you linked that.. i've seen that thread before many times and actually met that guy. I used to be a planted freshwater discus hobbyist like him. ;) Amazing tank though isn't it?

And that guy's got a reef tank now! Small world. ;)

if I can help gimme a PM. But FWIW the bottom of that thread of mine is a link to a document that tells you everything you need to know with regard to glass thickness for any given tank size. And Jim that's posting clearly is very well informed too!

Good luck!

Joel A
10/22/2009, 05:52 PM
And that guy's got a reef tank now! Small world. ;)

if I can help gimme a PM. But FWIW the bottom of that thread of mine is a link to a document that tells you everything you need to know with regard to glass thickness for any given tank size. And Jim that's posting clearly is very well informed too!

Good luck!

no kidding right? You don't have a reef tank now, do you?

Anyways though, should i just go ahead and order the glass? 3/4" for the bottom and 1/2" for the sides? Anything else i should take into consideration?

scolley
10/22/2009, 06:28 PM
I DO have a reef tank. Got a build thread around here somewhere, but the pics are old... tank looks quite a bit better now.

As for your glass, as I mentioned, Jim's advice is right on target. You can do this with 1/2" for the sides. But you'll be happier if you shoot for 5/8". Will bow much less, and be sturdier. As for the bottom, there's no good reason IMO for that being thicker than the sides, assuming the tank is well supported.

To that point, you were asking about "sides sitting on top of the bottom" vs. "sides abutting the bottom". The latter is much stronger. But the problem is that the bottom and sides have to be cut PERFECTLY or it winds up causing gaps in your vertical seams. Again - go take a look in my thread for a discussion on that.

If I were doing it all over again, I'd do two bottom panes. One larger one that the sides sit on, and another small pane that they are flush up against. I think if you'll check, that Glass Cages uses that technique for bottom strength. And that's where it's weakest.

Good luck!

MrRyanT
10/22/2009, 06:42 PM
If I were doing it all over again, I'd do two bottom panes. One larger one that the sides sit on, and another small pane that they are flush up against. I think if you'll check, that Glass Cages uses that technique for bottom strength. And that's where it's weakest.

Good luck!
Wow! What a good idea. I've never seen a tank built that way, and don't believe I ever would've thought of that, but seems like a great plan. A little more on cost, but seems like it would be much stronger that way.

ycrazyy
10/22/2009, 07:43 PM
Wow! What a good idea. I've never seen a tank built that way, and don't believe I ever would've thought of that, but seems like a great plan. A little more on cost, but seems like it would be much stronger that way.

This is a great method to increase the surface area of your silicone joint at the bottom (highest stress area) of the tank. You don't need to use anything too thick, I would probably just put some 1/4" thick strips down to give it that extra little bite.

coralnut99
10/23/2009, 07:24 AM
This is a great method to increase the surface area of your silicone joint at the bottom (highest stress area) of the tank. You don't need to use anything too thick, I would probably just put some 1/4" thick strips down to give it that extra little bite.

From GC's perspective it's probably cheaper and faster for them to just lay that second panel in there, than it is to cut all those strips and align them properly. But I couldn't agree more that it's and easy way to increase the inner bead's surface area. Additionally that "cleat" makes it exponentially easier to stand the panels up and keep them on edge while mating to adjoining panels.

B.friend
10/23/2009, 06:57 PM
Actually, the high end tank builders use RTV108 , (information source: GE 2004, and Momentive 2009-- I am sure it could have changed in the last several months....) as it is stronger. 995 = 350 psi, RTV108 = 400 psi. Also the 995 is not recommended for surfaces in contact with food, medical or pharmaceutical applications-- which means it is not NON - toxic. I am certain some tank builder out there is using 995. And a high end tank manufacturer would use 5/8" glass for the sides, and 7/8" for the bottom.

Regards,

Jim

This is the silcone used by the manufactures that built my 200 gallon tank~
Aquarium Obsessed~ So if they were using it should be fine~

JTL
10/23/2009, 08:04 PM
I DO have a reef tank. Got a build thread around here somewhere, but the pics are old... tank looks quite a bit better now.

As for your glass, as I mentioned, Jim's advice is right on target. You can do this with 1/2" for the sides. But you'll be happier if you shoot for 5/8". Will bow much less, and be sturdier. As for the bottom, there's no good reason IMO for that being thicker than the sides, assuming the tank is well supported.

To that point, you were asking about "sides sitting on top of the bottom" vs. "sides abutting the bottom". The latter is much stronger. But the problem is that the bottom and sides have to be cut PERFECTLY or it winds up causing gaps in your vertical seams. Again - go take a look in my thread for a discussion on that.

If I were doing it all over again, I'd do two bottom panes. One larger one that the sides sit on, and another small pane that they are flush up against. I think if you'll check, that Glass Cages uses that technique for bottom strength. And that's where it's weakest.

Good luck!

When I checked a few months ago GC was just doing the euro brace on the bottom panel in order to get more surface area. I went with the AO specs which were 3/4" bottom and 1/2" sides for a 44x24x22 tank. The bottom is raised and that was not an issue when I constructed it. I actually think it is easier to do the panels "around" the bottom, but admittedly that is the only way I have done it. I had a bunch of problems getting the seams right using RTV 108 and eventually the RTV 103 silicone. In retrospect I probably could have let the seams alone but instead I completely rebuilt the tank 3 times. I am a master at removing silicone. RTV 108 or 103 is a fantastic adhesive.

Joel A
10/24/2009, 11:40 AM
When I checked a few months ago GC was just doing the euro brace on the bottom panel in order to get more surface area. I went with the AO specs which were 3/4" bottom and 1/2" sides for a 44x24x22 tank. The bottom is raised and that was not an issue when I constructed it. I actually think it is easier to do the panels "around" the bottom, but admittedly that is the only way I have done it. I had a bunch of problems getting the seams right using RTV 108 and eventually the RTV 103 silicone. In retrospect I probably could have let the seams alone but instead I completely rebuilt the tank 3 times. I am a master at removing silicone. RTV 108 or 103 is a fantastic adhesive.

this tank you built, was it a rimless?

If you built it to AO specs with 3/4" bottom and 1/2" sides then for sure i could do the same thing with an even smaller tank and be fine?

Joel A
11/07/2009, 11:33 AM
so i'm thinking a little on this... would eurobracing make sense? It would make the tank safer hopefully, still looks nice, and i don't think it would be too expensive to use?

I'm thinking all 1/2" glass construction with a top eurobracing? How would I do this though, what size glass would be needed, and how thick? Is it hard to do?

I'm also wondering how exactly the eurobrace is attached to the top of the tank?

JTL
11/07/2009, 12:08 PM
Joel,
The euro brace on a glass rimless is on the bottom. It is nothing more than a 2" strip of glass siliconed to the bottom and inside side panels. It provides more surface area for the silicone on the bottom sides which are under the most pressure. I just went with a 3/4" bottom and skipped the euro brace.

uncleof6
11/07/2009, 01:06 PM
Certainly, 12mm glass can be used with a euro brace for this tank. As with the rest of this, it can be done two ways, either on top, or inside the top. Just as sides around the bottom is "stronger," sides around the euro brace would be also, but a little trickier to build.

12mm x 3" - 4" should be fine. On 48" tank you'll want a center brace front to back, same dimensions. Top and bottom of the tank. Don't need a center brace at the bottom.

Jim

Joel A
11/07/2009, 05:17 PM
Certainly, 12mm glass can be used with a euro brace for this tank. As with the rest of this, it can be done two ways, either on top, or inside the top. Just as sides around the bottom is "stronger," sides around the euro brace would be also, but a little trickier to build.

12mm x 3" - 4" should be fine. On 48" tank you'll want a center brace front to back, same dimensions. Top and bottom of the tank. Don't need a center brace at the bottom.

Jim


so basically a 12mm euro brace around the top, 3"-4" wide...

so i'd need
48"x3"
18"x3"
48"x3"
18"x3"

all in 1/2" glass, is that correct? Should it be tempered?

Definitely need to do top and bottom of the tank?

uncleof6
11/07/2009, 06:16 PM
so basically a 12mm euro brace around the top, 3"-4" wide...

so i'd need
48"x3"
18"x3"
48"x3"
18"x3"

all in 1/2" glass, is that correct? Should it be tempered?

Definitely need to do top and bottom of the tank?

Cutting all the pieces to exact size, will not allow silicone between the pieces, and/or between the pieces and the tank sides, depending on how you install it. Seam allowance is 1 - 1.5mm.

No need for any glass of sufficient thickness to be tempered.

Definitely needed? This is arguable, however it is related to using thicker glass on the bottom than the sides: the same logic, (in terms of seam width-- not considering bottom support) The wider the seam, the stronger it is, and the pressure is greatest at the bottom of the tank.
The object is to build a bullet proof tank. My back is definitely liking the lighter (relatively) bottom panel.....

Jim

JTL
11/07/2009, 06:17 PM
Joel,
At the end of the day you are the one who needs to make a decision. I went through all of this stuff to the point of driving everyone nuts. I finally contacted both AO and GC and found out what they are doing. I went with AO which was 1/2" glass on the sides and 3/4" on the bottom. I don't remember if they raised the bottom, but I did by about 1/4 inch. Only because I did not want to use a foam base under the tank. My tank is 44x24x23, so it is similar in size to yours. FWIW it is holding up very well, but I must say that putting it together properly with RTV 108 was a PITA. This is without question the absolute best product for building aquariums but it takes some practice. I did mine 3X before I was satisfied (thanks Jim). You can skimp a little here and there but not on every thing at the same time. IMO 1/2" is fine, skip the top brace and if you do not do a euro brace on the bottom use 3/4" glass. Raising the bottom is no more work and I think going around the bottom panel is easier.

nicknguyen
11/07/2009, 11:41 PM
Jim,

If I wanted to do a 48 x 30 x 24. It would be best to go with 5/8 side and 3/4 bottom?

thanks,

Nick

uncleof6
11/08/2009, 12:27 AM
Jim,

If I wanted to do a 48 x 30 x 24. It would be best to go with 5/8 side and 3/4 bottom?

thanks,

Nick


Both not safety factor 7.6 yet.. but thanks for playing.... :D 16.96mm sides, 21.79mm bottom. Don't think I would want to use 5/8 (.6250") for this the safety factor is 6.66, would be a bad omen..... ;)

For me, 15mm is out of my comfort zone, for a rimless, 17mm will deflect less, remember I do bulletproof. Would it work? Might.

Jim

THEUNION1
12/25/2009, 05:27 AM
Any updates? I like this topic alot....
I personaly think glass on top of bottom with 3" bottom "euro" braces is best. Double safe!

jefferino
12/25/2009, 06:04 PM
Good luck, can't wait to watch the build!