SPS Coral bleaching from bottom - STN ?

[roiy]

Hi all,

Some tank details - Total 500L of water (150 * 60 *60 cm).
The tank was transferred from a living one and has been up for 5 and a half months now (since may).
It is a SPS based reef with 20 different SPS corals - Monti's and acropora from different sp.
Most of the corals are looking fine and almost all of them are showing growth signs.
The problem is that some corals - blue montipora digi \ some acropora sp. are loosing some of the tissue of the coral starting from the bottom. the progress of the skin getting dead is slow and it is very hard to see its progress but it seems like to be consistent :sad2:
I am using Fauna marine system for nutrient control - zeolith , ultra bak , ultra min s for 8 months now.
ALL of my water parameters are monitored weekly and the current data is:

temp - 26c
salinity - 1.028
ph - 8.5
kh - 9
ca - 420
po4 - 0.001
no3 - 3

All the additives are added daily including 3 solutions - CA , MG , Sodium B Carbonate. the data is constant and has been since the aquarium has been set up.
lightning is :

2 * 250 W 10,000K + 4 * 54W actinic T5

Skimmer - Deltec APF600

Water movement - 2 * Koralia 10,500 l\h
1 * sunsun 12,000
1 * Aquarium Systems NeWave 6700 l\h
Return pump - tutton 4800 l\h

Total of water movement - 40,000 L\H (without the return pump).

I have read some posts on the subject but didn't find conclusive actions to be taken or certain steps to take\avoid.

any assistance will be greatly appreciated :reading:

[FishTruck]

I have gone through this and am still going through it. Consider getting the questionable corals out of there. I had a few frags do this... I just kind of watched and tinkered and hoped they would recover. I ended up losing all of my acros about six weeks later. I wish I would have just pulled and isolated or discarded all questionable corals right from the beginning.

Check for AEFW and redbugs.

Make sure your RO/DI water is O ppm.
Make sure your refractometer is calibrated correctly.
Make sure your test kits are not expired.
Make sure there are no nearby mucous producers, sweepers, nearby.

Hopefully, you will have better luck than me!

[obiwanthegoby]

Check your refractometer, with your water at 1.028 if its reading a little low... you could have salinity too high.

Otherwise I would do as fishtruck suggested and start QTing. RTN hasnt quite been understood yet. If it is bacterial or viral.... it could spread. Ive treated several frags in the past with a strong Iodine dip and then let them sit in revive,... Had some good luck and some bad...I think that is part of the hobby though....

Good luck to you..

Obi

[roiy]

I have gone through this and am still going through it. Consider getting the questionable corals out of there. I had a few frags do this... I just kind of watched and tinkered and hoped they would recover. I ended up losing all of my acros about six weeks later. I wish I would have just pulled and isolated or discarded all questionable corals right from the beginning.

Check for AEFW and redbugs.

Make sure your RO/DI water is O ppm.
Make sure your refractometer is calibrated correctly.
Make sure your test kits are not expired.
Make sure there are no nearby mucous producers, sweepers, nearby.

Hopefully, you will have better luck than me!

How long are you experiencing the STN on you're corals ? strating from bottom ? which kind of SPS ?
Did you loose all of you're SPS or just the ones you had STN'ing ?
Anything you found out about the chemistry of you're water that was wrong on that period ?

My RO\DI system is taking out 0-2 ppm water.
The reflectometer has been tested good and accurate.
Test kits - all good salifert test kits.


Make sure there are no nearby mucous producers, sweepers, nearby

what do you mean by that ?

I am using Fauna's 1-2-3 additives - Could STN be caused by a shortage of some trace elements ? overdosing one of the elements ?

Other assumptions ? Anyone else experienced this thing ? any other treatment someone used on his tank ?

thanks,

Roiy

[obiwanthegoby]

LPS, And softies. Softies produce mucous and they use allelopathy to ward off competetion. LPS use mucous and sweeper tentacles to sting, and kill encroaching tank mates. The sweepers on some coral can reach 6 -8", galaxia ive witnessed first hand at killing things you would think were well out of reach....

Obi

[roiy]

LPS, And softies. Softies produce mucous and they use allelopathy to ward off competetion. LPS use mucous and sweeper tentacles to sting, and kill encroaching tank mates. The sweepers on some coral can reach 6 -8", galaxia ive witnessed first hand at killing things you would think were well out of reach....

Obi


thanks for the explanation i didnt understand the meaning :)

actually - except one LPS scolymia i have no other in my system, only SPS.

[roiy]

I am using Fauna's 1-2-3 additives - Could STN be caused by a shortage of some trace elements ? overdosing one of the elements ?

Other assumptions ? Anyone else experienced this thing ? any other treatment someone used on his tank ?

thanks,

Roiy

[FishTruck]

I will tell you the whole story.

The event that I had occurred last January. I had about 20 colonies of various acroprora, mixed in with lots of LPS, clams, some montipora caps. One day, I noted some STN from the bottom up on one 5 inch table. It was very slow, and I figured I would just wait and see what happened. Everything else seemed fine... so I did some cursory tests which were o.k... and then just forgot about it. I pulled it out when it was about 75 % bleached. Meanwhile, I noted one or two other little tiny frags doing the same thing.

Then another, then another, then another. Various species of acros at first with initial sparing of montis, birdsnests, and some others.

Fast forward one month, now my biggest and best colonies are showing subtle blanching at the bases. Two weeks later, I am panic fragging, dipping in Iodine, setting up QT, but ultimately, lost 100% of all acros.

Also, I had a birdsnest expire and finally a couple of montiporas bleached and went down as a cyano outbreak occurred at the end of the major die off. My clams, fish, LPS all did fine. I put NO new SPS in the tank for about thre months.

Going over my tank... I found three things.

1. my effluent in my reactor was going up and down. I was using an aquacontroller to hold the pH steady... so the amount of "ALK" my reactor was putting in tank could vary wildly from one day to the next. So, I think there may have been some ALK swings, but, I never really caught or measured them. I have fixed that problem.

2. my RO unit was putting out 35 ppm water, which was chewing up my DI, and I was running topoff water that was 35 ppm into my tank for a period of time.

3. I thought my refractometer was calibrated properly (using RO/DI water), but, when I used calibration solution... found that I was off. What I thought was 1.024 in my tank was actually 1.021.

So, I am still scratching my head over the whole thing. The major regret I have is not pulling out that one colony that seemed to herald the whole event.

Now, 8 months later, I put in an established deep water acro from my LFS. It had nice shaggy polyps. I matched the placement in my tank with a light meter, optimized flow. It was great for three days, then pulled in the polyps, and died three weeks later.. STN again.

Pulling my hair out now, I rebuilt my RO unit again... (zero ppm from RO now... even before it gets to DI), did massive water changes, and ran a polyfilter.

I have five acro frags in the tank which are alive after five days with polyps extended nicely on three of them. This is probably my last try with acros in this tank.

[roiy]

Fish-Truck thanks for the detailed info :thumbsup:
In my case - I got a 5 cm blue millopora frag 5 months ago and grew it since than.
when i glued it to the rock i could see a few mm of dead tissue after some time.

29.05.2009

http://www.reef-center-host.com/pix/albums/userpics/10453/millopora_blue_old.JPG

8.8.2009

http://www.reef-center-host.com/pix/albums/userpics/10453/millopora_blue_new.JPG


10.10.2009

http://worldreefs.info/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/DSC_3294_scaled.JPG

now 3 weeks after i can see that the white space has grown 1 cm more.

any other ideas will be great.

thanks for the help all :wave:

[FishTruck]

You have nice coralline in your tank... I think that's a good sign as far as your Mg, Alk, and Ca management.

I am not sure I can see the tissue loss at the base. Nice coral.

Do you have a tank you can put it into quarantine? Try dipping it in Revive and see if any flatworms fall off? Look for eggs on the base, or red bugs with magnification?

If your priority is to save the rest of the tank, I would get it out of there. The downside is that tinkering with that milli could make it worse.

[roiy]

Could STN be caused by a shortage of some trace elements ? overdosing one of the elements ?

Other assumptions ? Anyone else experienced this thing ? any other treatment someone used on his tank ?

thanks,

Roiy

[roiy]

:sad1:

[ump]

hey i had the same thing happen to me not to long ago it started at one then moved to more of them i had to frag all of them no dips worked but i added about 3000gph more flow to my tank and it all seemed to stop now i have about 5000 gph of random flow in my 75 and everyhing is doing fine for now.

[roiy]

hey i had the same thing happen to me not to long ago it started at one then moved to more of them i had to frag all of them no dips worked but i added about 3000gph more flow to my tank and it all seemed to stop now i have about 5000 gph of random flow in my 75 and everyhing is doing fine for now.

I have a total of 40,000 L\H streams running in the tank over 500L water in tank. X 8 times the tank. I dont think its a flow thing though i read some other people implying this could be it.
Yesterday I took out the blue milli - looked (eyes only) on the base and all overe the coral. Couldn't see any parasite or something unusual, Broke the coral into 2 pieces and put one piece back more or less same place the coral was before and the second piece was putted on the other side of the tank - High streams and high lightning. Second milli part was putted in a medium stream area with high lightning.

I have a third piece ( small one maybe 3 cm) which i will try to deliver to a friend so he can try and raise the frag over in his tank.

I really hope some part of the coral will survive.

any other ideas someone can come up with ?

guys, 3 people answered this post :sad2: WHERE ARE ALL the SPS people ?
No one else encountered this problem before ?

thanks,

Roiy

[firsthesitation]

Actually I'm having the EXACT same problem. I've been riddled scratching my head for the last 2 months or so. All my tests are coming out fine but my salinity was a little high (1.030). I'm slowly dropping it back to 1.025 with fresh water changes. I'm also using RODI but mine comes in around 2ppm. I thought maybe bulbs, my 250 halides are about 10 months old now just doesnt seem consistent with where the pieces are that are receeding. And my bubble king its pulling out nasty stuff as usual, running carbon and phosban and thats all been changed monthly as part of my maintenance schedule. I do about a 10 gallon water change once a week on mine. For a while there I was doing 20 gallons a week to try and re-establish my base elements again as my tank has been up for a while, it doesnt appear that helped at all cept burn through some salt.

I'm starting to loose some of my ORA's now so I'm really hoping this is something easy we're overlooking.

[roiy]

Actually I'm having the EXACT same problem. I've been riddled scratching my head for the last 2 months or so. All my tests are coming out fine but my salinity was a little high (1.030). I'm slowly dropping it back to 1.025 with fresh water changes. I'm also using RODI but mine comes in around 2ppm. I thought maybe bulbs, my 250 halides are about 10 months old now just doesnt seem consistent with where the pieces are that are receeding. And my bubble king its pulling out nasty stuff as usual, running carbon and phosban and thats all been changed monthly as part of my maintenance schedule. I do about a 10 gallon water change once a week on mine. For a while there I was doing 20 gallons a week to try and re-establish my base elements again as my tank has been up for a while, it doesnt appear that helped at all cept burn through some salt.

I'm starting to loose some of my ORA's now so I'm really hoping this is something easy we're overlooking.

Thanks for sharing you're info firsthesitation :thumbsup:

I do a weekly 10% water change with reef crystals salt at 1.027
My bulbs are 5.5 months old but i am thinking of replacing them to new ones to see if it can bee the cause for the problem though i doubt it.
firsthesitation - Have you tried looking at the base of one of the bad corals ? have you seen any parasite over there ? As i wrote before there where no parasite i could see with my eyes only on the milli coral so my guess is that its not a parasite thingy.

In this case - my guess is that it might be a case of overdosing \ missing some micro\macro element :rolleyes: In this case i am not sure that regular 10% water changes can do the difference or help the problem.

Any ideas ?

:worried: :reading:

[eon]

actually the exact same thing has been happening to my tank everything was doing fine and all of a sudden all the sps went downhill and i started seeing RTN followed by STN unfortunately i had a mishap yesterday with some revive that wiped out about 95% of my SPS but i plan on getting some new ones in a couple months so i really would love to know what the cause of this is

[firsthesitation]

I too am using Reef Crystals. I've taken a few of them out and looked them over quite throughly with no evidence of any bugs or anything really abnormal. I'm just so confused why corals RIGHT next to the ones receeding are doing great....?

It shouldnt be a dosing issue, if our dKh and Ca are right....the one thing I didnt test for recently was Mg, but technically dKh and Ca would be out of wack.

[firsthesitation]

Oh forgot to add, I did another fresh water change last night so I should be getting back to closer to 1.026 for salinity so hopefully I'll know relatively shortly if that was it or not. I also have new bulbs on the way too T5's and Halides. Thinking about doing 15k XM's this time anyways but now I'm wondering if I should stay with the 14k's

[roiy]

firsthesitation - which kind of SPS are giving you the hard time ?
Do you have millopora's in you're tank ? If you do where are they (height \ light) ?

[rigleautomotive]

It sounds like you are possibly starving the corals with the ulns approach.You can try feeding a bit heavier and adding Amino acids to see if that helps.
How is your PE,are your colors light/pastel

[rigleautomotive]

Could STN be caused by a shortage of some trace elements ? overdosing one of the elements ?

Other assumptions ? Anyone else experienced this thing ? any other treatment someone used on his tank ?

thanks,

Roiy

I would think cutting back on the additives for a week or 2 to see how the corals react may be something to think about also

[roiy]

I would think cutting back on the additives for a week or 2 to see how the corals react may be something to think about also

I thought about it.
As for additives I dosed 7.5ml per day (approx 50ml per week) for 500L water (kind like the manufacture recommends).
I started taking it down to 5ml per day (70% of the initial amount).

Do you think i should take it down some more ?

I Dose 2 kind of fauna's amino acid every day along with some other fauna stuff
but i don't think the corals are really starving.
Is this type of death is common for millopora corals ? STN from the bottom ?

thanks for the info all :spin3:

[joeyvu]

I just found this thread...I had same problem. at first, some of the coral are whitening at the base. At first, I thought my alk and Ca. and found out they all are at normal sea water level since I use NSW, only Ca at higher level at 520ppm. Then slowly other sps followed. I stepped back and thought of everything different that I did. I also fragged a few and broght it home to other tank too, newly established. Same problemmmm...The only thing that I did was put PFO in same reactor with Carbon....I immediate change the reactor to only Carbon without PFO on both of the tank and change 30% water.... Everthing seems to stop right away....RTN seems to stop all SPS....And now, they are growing again....Even the frags that I bought home, thought was hopeless since half of the frag was white, aer now showing PE and coloring up now.... I think either PFO with Carbon in same reactor are BAD or PFO probably too much, causing this RTN....Just my .02 cent...Hope you find out your problem....

[maddog2002]

I have same issue. My SPS Corals bleaching from bottom one by one.
:sad1:

[firsthesitation]

Mostly my acro's and my torts. My mille's are all doing really good and my monti's are good. I've recently noticed that my tri-color is loosing color, its not STN at all just not as bold as it used to be. I lost my Joe the Coral, and my Blue Voodoo already. My Cali Tort is not far behind.

I run a two little fishies reactor with Seachem's Seagel in it, its a part Carbon part Phosphate remover. I've always had that on my tank though, well the last 2 years atleast while I've been doing SPS. In talking with Kevin Cohen at the Dr's Foster & Smith tour a few weeks ago he referenced an article he read where someone tested the skimate and concluded that running carbon could be equally effective to running a large skimmer. I think on his SPS tank in his office he's running a Euroreef, with a reactor with carbon, a calcium reactor and his 4 vortechs. So I dono. He's also doing BB which I've been considering lately just to remove that potential nitrate source.

[roiy]

Mostly my acro's and my torts. My mille's are all doing really good and my monti's are good. I've recently noticed that my tri-color is loosing color, its not STN at all just not as bold as it used to be. I lost my Joe the Coral, and my Blue Voodoo already. My Cali Tort is not far behind.

I run a two little fishies reactor with Seachem's Seagel in it, its a part Carbon part Phosphate remover. I've always had that on my tank though, well the last 2 years atleast while I've been doing SPS. In talking with Kevin Cohen at the Dr's Foster & Smith tour a few weeks ago he referenced an article he read where someone tested the skimate and concluded that running carbon could be equally effective to running a large skimmer. I think on his SPS tank in his office he's running a Euroreef, with a reactor with carbon, a calcium reactor and his 4 vortechs. So I dono. He's also doing BB which I've been considering lately just to remove that potential nitrate source.

I run 2 reactors separately with fauna's marin carbon and rowaphos as a phosphate absorber yet i have been doing that for more than a year now.
I changed both with the same quantity as it was 3 weeks ago...
hm... could make some lead also.

[Atomikk]

Doing some quick research on the internet, I found that in some cases corals tend to bleach or STN do to overexposure to light.

I am experiencing this with some of my corals. One system, two displays, one showing STN. Couldn't figure out what it was until now. This is due too much oxydation in corals (creating free radicals). They also say that vitamins C and D (and some other chem bond) help with this overexposure.

[Atomikk]

Here is another article that says that low nutrient systems are possible causes for necrosis.

"Comment at this point: Starvation in animals results in a loss of body tissue and low fat stores, and this is observed to occur with basically normal body chemistry parameters such as C:N ratio. (The diagnosis of food-starvation is based purely on low body weight/length, there is no chemical test for it.) Impaired reproduction and weakened immunity are also well known side effects of undernutrition. Compare this information with the following excerpt from Martin Pecheux’s comprehensive literature review on coral bleaching:

“Tissue of bleached corals shows general atrophy and necrosis. There is 30-50% less tissue per surface, with a normal C:N ratio (Szmant and Gassman, 1990)...one “healthy”-looking Pocillopora was in early stage of necrosis (loss of architecture, basophilic tinge in mesoglea), from which it was concluded that the problem is on the animal side, with maybe thereafter nutrient-starvation of zooxanthellae (Glynn et. al., 1985). Gonads are reduced and reproduction is generally impaired...Bleached corals had half normal lipid levels (Glynn et. al., 1985). Phenoloxidase, a biomarker of immune capability, was found to have lower activity in bleached and semi-bleached M. annularis (Scith, 1992). Secondary parasites were observed in a few cases (fungus, bacteria). There is no transmission of bleaching following iso-allo-and xenografts...During bleaching there is no visible calcification.” (Taken from Pecheux, 1992)

There is good reason to suspect that the low lipid reserves and lowered immunity features precede the bleaching event rather than result from it, as one might suspect. Widespread outbreaks of infectious diseases and parasitic problems among (not bleached) corals have been another cause of serious concern to reef scientists, also starting only in recent years. And, as mentioned earlier, slowed growth of (not bleached) corals has actually been occurring in some “pristine” areas for decades. Therefore it is reasonable to suspect that some underlying factor has caused these changes and thereby weakened coral communities as a whole, and predisposed many corals now to “bleaching” under temperature stress. Food-deprivation is certainly consistent with the pattern of presenting symptoms (slowed growth, low lipid reserves, lowered immunity and reproduction, ultimate death). "

[rigleautomotive]

Here is another article that says that low nutrient systems are possible causes for necrosis.

"Comment at this point: Starvation in animals results in a loss of body tissue and low fat stores, and this is observed to occur with basically normal body chemistry parameters such as C:N ratio. (The diagnosis of food-starvation is based purely on low body weight/length, there is no chemical test for it.) Impaired reproduction and weakened immunity are also well known side effects of undernutrition. Compare this information with the following excerpt from Martin Pecheux’s comprehensive literature review on coral bleaching:

“Tissue of bleached corals shows general atrophy and necrosis. There is 30-50% less tissue per surface, with a normal C:N ratio (Szmant and Gassman, 1990)...one “healthy”-looking Pocillopora was in early stage of necrosis (loss of architecture, basophilic tinge in mesoglea), from which it was concluded that the problem is on the animal side, with maybe thereafter nutrient-starvation of zooxanthellae (Glynn et. al., 1985). Gonads are reduced and reproduction is generally impaired...Bleached corals had half normal lipid levels (Glynn et. al., 1985). Phenoloxidase, a biomarker of immune capability, was found to have lower activity in bleached and semi-bleached M. annularis (Scith, 1992). Secondary parasites were observed in a few cases (fungus, bacteria). There is no transmission of bleaching following iso-allo-and xenografts...During bleaching there is no visible calcification.” (Taken from Pecheux, 1992)

There is good reason to suspect that the low lipid reserves and lowered immunity features precede the bleaching event rather than result from it, as one might suspect. Widespread outbreaks of infectious diseases and parasitic problems among (not bleached) corals have been another cause of serious concern to reef scientists, also starting only in recent years. And, as mentioned earlier, slowed growth of (not bleached) corals has actually been occurring in some “pristine” areas for decades. Therefore it is reasonable to suspect that some underlying factor has caused these changes and thereby weakened coral communities as a whole, and predisposed many corals now to “bleaching” under temperature stress. Food-deprivation is certainly consistent with the pattern of presenting symptoms (slowed growth, low lipid reserves, lowered immunity and reproduction, ultimate death). "

Thanks for the good reading there.It was very interesting

I have concluded the same just from my own observations with starving corals.heavy feeding with good nutrient export seems to fix the problem some of the time

[roiy]

Great reading stuff !

The term "coral starving" is a general one IMO. If you take nutrient's level to 0 (PO4 & No3 ) but adds amino acids that should be the coral food at this time
Is that called starving ? Feeding fish 3 times a day (heavily feedings) should get some nutrients back to the corals i thought.
These are very interesting idea's - keep them coming :thumbsup:

[ronharel]

I had the same problem even severe one while big colonies of acros died in few days all parameters were fine - analytic tests of all parameters . In fact it came in 3 waves - in the first one acros died than came a wave of Ciano
2nd wave all clams died and 3rd wave all montipura died / all that time there were kind of algae from all kinds and all colors - showing like a cycle. The calcareous algae was regressing and no new algae was growing
- the interesting thing was that next to the big tank I have a 10 ga. Nano reef that gets it water from the main tank by water changing. In that Nano - all corals are happy with a nice and pink layer of calcareous algae
It was very strange so I couldn't put any coral in the main tank because all died.

The live rock became very dark and looked like dead rocks.
After analyzing all record I do belive now that what happened is related to bacteria explosion that influenced the rock in the main tank and not in the Nano. Such explosion of bacteria from different kinds mainly bad ones can happen buy overdosing bacteria or bacteria food or using De Nitrator- Sulphur base without monitoring Sulphur level that rose in my tank
I took out all the rocks - washing them carefully and brushing them. You will never belive what came out of it......very frightening and I have about 12000g/h from different wave pumps and seaquance pump and close loop of Dart...... Meaning that these bacteria were on my rocks killing everything. I'm in a process to add some acros again and will be happy to update you if that was the problem

[roiy]

This are Some of the steps i took in the past week in order to try and stop this STN :

fragged the infected coral into 3 (its small so this is the max frags) and putted 2 in different places in the tank and the third piece at my friends tank.

Took some of the additives down (1-2-3-bak)

Took out some of the PFO i was using (Deltec).

Hope this will help solve this issue - since fragging the coral i havent seent the STN progress till now so maybe its good news.

Any other solution somebody tried and succeeded with stopping STN ?

:thumbsup:

[Bolo Tran]

Oops. Please delete

[firsthesitation]

I finished dropping my salinity and that seems to have slowed the STN to a point I'm not noticing any other corals. I got new bulbs on the way too so hopefully we're both on the right track.

I've also recently started feeding Rod's Food (Original and Herbivore). The fish seem to love it and my LPS corals really come out when it hits the water. In reading through the ingredients it would appear there is quite a bit in the Original recipe that would be beneficial for corals also without specifically buying their Coral Blend. I just turn my return pump off for about an hour and let it blow around.

[roiy]

I finished dropping my salinity and that seems to have slowed the STN to a point I'm not noticing any other corals. I got new bulbs on the way too so hopefully we're both on the right track.

I've also recently started feeding Rod's Food (Original and Herbivore). The fish seem to love it and my LPS corals really come out when it hits the water. In reading through the ingredients it would appear there is quite a bit in the Original recipe that would be beneficial for corals also without specifically buying their Coral Blend. I just turn my return pump off for about an hour and let it blow around.

what was you're salinity before \ after the change ?
any other change's you did ?

[firsthesitation]

It was 1.030 last week when i checked it, brought it down to 1.025 again just doing a couple small fresh water changes.

Not really any other changes. Did kind of a big cleaning but thats not abnormal for me I'm kinda picky about the way things look and how clean they are.

[roiy]

It was 1.030 last week when i checked it, brought it down to 1.025 again just doing a couple small fresh water changes.

Not really any other changes. Did kind of a big cleaning but thats not abnormal for me I'm kinda picky about the way things look and how clean they are.

It was 1.030 as the usual salinity ? I am running at a salinity of 1.028 for more than 6 months now. could it be also one of the causes as you see it ?

[firsthesitation]

I dono I've always ran mine at 1.025 or 1.026 at the highest. So when I tested it and it came up 1.030 it was odd to me so I lowered it. Must have thrown in 1 more 1/2 cup of salt when I was doing those 20 gallon water changes or something. I believe natural sea water is at 1.026 if I remember right so I try and mimic that.

[roiy]

Well . I leave the salinity issue out of the equation. A salinity swing can definitely harm SPS and turn STN (even stopped one) to a RTN.
I think i will continue running the system on 1.028 and monitor all other suggestions.

[Los]

I've been having the exact same issue. I have a 700 gallon system and I've been battling this off and on. I'm finally concluding that it is a combination of too low of nutrients with alk too high and too much light. Even with out running Zeo (or equivalent), it's possible to get ultra low nutrients in a regular reef. Combined with high alk and too much light is a recipe for STN from the base up. Take this with a grain of salt, though, since I have yet to lick the problem.

[roiy]

I've been having the exact same issue. I have a 700 gallon system and I've been battling this off and on. I'm finally concluding that it is a combination of too low of nutrients with alk too high and too much light. Even with out running Zeo (or equivalent), it's possible to get ultra low nutrients in a regular reef. Combined with high alk and too much light is a recipe for STN from the base up. Take this with a grain of salt, though, since I have yet to lick the problem.

Hi Los,

What is you're salinity ? ALK ? No3 ? Po4 ? how does you're lights goes on and off (what time) ? I think you have a lot in what you say here - starving corals and high lights.

[Los]

Tank = 360 gallon display / 700 gallon system

Salinity = 1.0267 = 35 ppt using 2 calibrated refractometers
Alk = 9 to 11 dkh LaMotte (I was running at 11 and have been dropping it slowly
NO3 = 0.0 ppm Salifert (never, ever been able to get a reading)
Po4 = 0.00 ppm Hach (never, ever been able to get a reading)
Calcium = 420 +/- 20 ppm Salifert
Magnesium = 1320 +/- 20 ppm Salifert

Display lights: 4 Sfiligoi XR6 400w metal halides + 16 24" T5s
Lights schedule:
T5s 11:00-21:30
MHs 13:30 - 19:30 (although these were on for 7 hours until I dialed them back 2 weeks ago)


Feeding schedule:
I have a 700 gallon system, heavily stocked with corals, but with only half a dozen small fish. It is very lightly stocked. I feed them the same amount I fed them when they were in my 90 gallon and that was probably too little for even that tank. Recently, I've started adding Amino Acids from KZ, with 1ml/day, but only about every third day.

I also have a refugium. In the past year, I've only once had to remove some chaetomorpha. It grows super-slow. Skimmer is a BK300 Deluxe.

Interestingly, it used to get better whenever I would put in new carbon and GFO. In hindsight, I think the GFO and carbon were precipitating out some of the alk, which is what really made the corals happier. The GFO / carbon mix would end up as a solid block with much of it covered with white calcium & alk.

Water change schedule = 43 gallons every week.

[DeathWish302]

I thought about it.
As for additives I dosed 7.5ml per day (approx 50ml per week) for 500L water (kind like the manufacture recommends).
I started taking it down to 5ml per day (70% of the initial amount).

Do you think i should take it down some more ?

I Dose 2 kind of fauna's amino acid every day along with some other fauna stuff
but i don't think the corals are really starving.
Is this type of death is common for millopora corals ? STN from the bottom ?

thanks for the info all :spin3:

I've not had milles STN ever. I do have a dull brown stag frag I acquired as a freebie that I've recently had STN problems with. I acquired it after switching to a 20k halide I was experimenting with. Slowly the color went from brown to baby-blue tips and bright blue branches/base. I decided the growth under 20k was lacking for my tastes, so I switched about 3 weeks ago. BAMM! That beautiful frag started STN the next day which has nearly creeped to a halt. No flatworms or redbugs anywhere to be found, no algae growing on the skeleton & no additives dosed until in the last week EVER! The light is definitely my problem as I completely shocked that sensitive coral which explains the coloration from the beginning.

Have you changed lighting anytime in the past few weeks?

[roiy]

I've not had milles STN ever. I do have a dull brown stag frag I acquired as a freebie that I've recently had STN problems with. I acquired it after switching to a 20k halide I was experimenting with. Slowly the color went from brown to baby-blue tips and bright blue branches/base. I decided the growth under 20k was lacking for my tastes, so I switched about 3 weeks ago. BAMM! That beautiful frag started STN the next day which has nearly creeped to a halt. No flatworms or redbugs anywhere to be found, no algae growing on the skeleton & no additives dosed until in the last week EVER! The light is definitely my problem as I completely shocked that sensitive coral which explains the coloration from the beginning.

Have you changed lighting anytime in the past few weeks?

The second coral that has been doing STN is a dark green stag (much alike yours with blueish tips) and it started from the base and stopped like the milli 2 days ago.
I did not make a change in lighting lately, I am using a simple (marine color brand) MH bulbs and been using them for 6 months now. I also thought of this direction (lack\over lightning) so I ordered 2 new bulbs (same brand same 10,000K) in order to change the used one so as not to have insufficient lighting.
I think this is a very good idea and surly can cause this phenomenon

[DeathWish302]

The second coral that has been doing STN is a dark green stag (much alike yours with blueish tips) and it started from the base and stopped like the milli 2 days ago.
I did not make a change in lighting lately, I am using a simple (marine color brand) MH bulbs and been using them for 6 months now. I also thought of this direction (lack\over lightning) so I ordered 2 new bulbs (same brand same 10,000K) in order to change the used one so as not to have insufficient lighting.
I think this is a very good idea and surly can cause this phenomenon

When you replace lighting (especially when changing spectrums) DON'T rush the acclimation period. I don't change photoperiod, but raise my light higher above the tank. After the 20k experiment, I pushed the light up another ft and dropped it to the current height in only 2 weeks. Way too fast and I paid with STN on 1 frag. Nothing comes quickly in this hobby except chaos, death & destuction...

[Atomikk]

I've been having the exact same issue. I have a 700 gallon system and I've been battling this off and on. I'm finally concluding that it is a combination of too low of nutrients with alk too high and too much light. Even with out running Zeo (or equivalent), it's possible to get ultra low nutrients in a regular reef. Combined with high alk and too much light is a recipe for STN from the base up. Take this with a grain of salt, though, since I have yet to lick the problem.


This is 100% true. A lot of people can achieve low nutrient systems without actually implementing Zeo or Ultralith systems.

It is unfortunately funny because the answers to your STN problems you can find on ZeoVit forums. Things like Potassium, Bromide, Iron, Strontium, can all be depleted at higher rates in a low untrient system. This is what causes color loss, and if supplemented with a lot of light, STN.

[DeathWish302]

It is unfortunately funny because the answers to your STN problems you can find on ZeoVit forums. Things like Potassium, Bromide, Iron, Strontium, can all be depleted at higher rates in a low untrient system. This is what causes color loss, and if supplemented with a lot of light, STN.

How are these 'consumed' at higher rates? I have been supplementing Iron in the last couple weeks, but I'm perplexed at Bromide, Strontium & Potassium....

How do you measure your Bromide and Potassium? I've read all tests out are garbage. The strontium in IO/RC is above NSW, so I would hope with water changes this usage (if any) would be sufficient. I have read an article in Coral magazine that states it cannot be stated if Strontium is even a required element of just one that is bound in the skeleton b/c it is present.

Not trying to shoot your opinion in the foot. I'm having color-loss issues myself and trying to understand the dynamics of a ULNS. I have one due to a turf scrubber that is in place to eliminate cyano and need answers on what is best to supplement. That's a whole different thread though....

[roiy]

This is 100% true. A lot of people can achieve low nutrient systems without actually implementing Zeo or Ultralith systems.

It is unfortunately funny because the answers to your STN problems you can find on ZeoVit forums. Things like Potassium, Bromide, Iron, Strontium, can all be depleted at higher rates in a low untrient system. This is what causes color loss, and if supplemented with a lot of light, STN.


I would guess otherwise - since in a low nutrient system the corals get their colors lighter because of the low number of symbiotic algae. In that case the consuming of most of this elements will get lower if even changed.
Am i missing something ?

[Atomikk]

How are these 'consumed' at higher rates? I have been supplementing Iron in the last couple weeks, but I'm perplexed at Bromide, Strontium & Potassium....

How do you measure your Bromide and Potassium? I've read all tests out are garbage. The strontium in IO/RC is above NSW, so I would hope with water changes this usage (if any) would be sufficient. I have read an article in Coral magazine that states it cannot be stated if Strontium is even a required element of just one that is bound in the skeleton b/c it is present.

Not trying to shoot your opinion in the foot. I'm having color-loss issues myself and trying to understand the dynamics of a ULNS. I have one due to a turf scrubber that is in place to eliminate cyano and need answers on what is best to supplement. That's a whole different thread though....

Until recently, this was unknown to me too. I have scowered the ZeoVit forums, and they specifically say that this happens. One big indicator of K loss(Potassium) is the lightening of the blue in corals. You can use a test kit, i think manufactured by them (Zeo) for Potassium. As for Bromide, there isn't anything at this moment.

The thing is, I am not a proponent of their products and methods. I am just giving you what they say about STN, as it is quite accurate.

[DeathWish302]

Until recently, this was unknown to me too. I have scowered the ZeoVit forums, and they specifically say that this happens. One big indicator of K loss(Potassium) is the lightening of the blue in corals. You can use a test kit, i think manufactured by them (Zeo) for Potassium. As for Bromide, there isn't anything at this moment.

The thing is, I am not a proponent of their products and methods. I am just giving you what they say about STN, as it is quite accurate.

Potassium is removed in a Zeovit system b/c of the zeolith rock, shich you DO NOT need to achieve a ULNS. If you not running zeolite, you should not have a K problem. I don't know if you would want to throw Bromide in unless you can test. Too much is just as bad as too little.

I agree also that I'm not sold on the Zeo/Brightwell horde of supplements. There are just too many variables with these systems with a BROAD spectrum of what is considered a 'sucessful' tank with these additives.

A zeo tank is a completely different monster, so I don't know that you can apply these principals across the board. They can't even run high alk and Ca w/o some problems. I'm into experimenting with a tank, but zeo is just not for me and I'm not sold on the claims that I've seen on that forum. Every tank is different though....:worried:

[Los]

"You can use a test kit, i think manufactured by them (Zeo) for Potassium.."

Save your money and buy something else; the KZ test kit is worthless. My water "tested" around 220ppm or so and it wouldn't budge regardless of potassium additions. I then opened a brand new bottle of 60,000ppm potassium solution and blended it with tank water so that I would be increasing that sample by 400ppm. That should have led to a concentration of roughly 620ppm. When I tested that sample, it was still 220ppm.

I thought the Potassium bottle must have been bad. So I bought another from another company. That was 80,000ppm potassium. I again mixed up a solution which should have increased my tank water from 220 to 620 (by adding 2ml of well mixed 80,000ppm solution into 400ml of tank water). Tested that mixture using KZ's potassium kit and... wait for it... 220 again. I even tried testing the 80,000ppm potassium solution itself and I *think* it measured a bit higher than 220, but it's hard to tell with that test kit.

My KZ kit may measure something, but it is not measuring the concentration of potassium.

[DeathWish302]

"You can use a test kit, i think manufactured by them (Zeo) for Potassium.."

Save your money and buy something else; the KZ test kit is worthless. My water "tested" around 220ppm or so and it wouldn't budge regardless of potassium additions. I then opened a brand new bottle of 60,000ppm potassium solution and blended it with tank water so that I would be increasing that sample by 400ppm. That should have led to a concentration of roughly 620ppm. When I tested that sample, it was still 220ppm.

I thought the Potassium bottle must have been bad. So I bought another from another company. That was 80,000ppm potassium. I again mixed up a solution which should have increased my tank water from 220 to 620 (by adding 2ml of well mixed 80,000ppm solution into 400ml of tank water). Tested that mixture using KZ's potassium kit and... wait for it... 220 again. I even tried testing the 80,000ppm potassium solution itself and I *think* it measured a bit higher than 220, but it's hard to tell with that test kit.

My KZ kit may measure something, but it is not measuring the concentration of potassium.

I read your KZ test kit experience in another thread and decided that any potassium additions would have to be solely by 'feel'. Not sold on K as a culprit in a non-zeolite system and STN yet....

[sweetnsour]

hey everyone , anyone find the problem to this yet?

[Los]

Nope, still battling it. Since my last post, I've eliminated a HUGE colony of Hydnophora (so big it wouldn't fit in a 5 gallon bucket) and I'm waiting to see if that helps, since Hydno may have allelopathic abilities. Interestingly, I put a UV sterilizer in between my main tank and my frag tank, so that all the water going to the frag tank first goes through the UV, and that greatly reduced the STN in that tank. Unfortunately, it is still sporadically taking out my corals in my display.

[jlaurence32]

I'm having the same STN problem too. Oddly enough my corals are bleaching one species at a time. First it was all the birdsnests, then all the mille's, now it's moving to the pocci's. All the acros are fine. I also have a very low nutrient system. It all began about a month after I started using GFO. I pulled the GFO about 3 months ago but it's still progressing. I would consider myself a light feeder and that plus other factors equal weak corals. Some problems I'm considering are: starvation, high tank temp (runs around 83 in summer), high ph/alk (ph gets high 8.5 to get alk at 3.5 m/eq) and maybe lighting (running 9 hours with 350 par at sandbed). All I know is all my friends that have great looking corals super feed them multiple times a day. They got huge algae problems but their corals look great.

[sen5241b]

Assuming RTN or STN is caused by bacteria (a serious possibility) you may wish to consider lowering temp. There are some bacteria known to harm corals that will bloom at precise temperatures --like 82.

[maddog2002]

I think GFO is the problem. My SPS started to STN when I added too much GFO.

[gig]

I also have a mille frag that is now showing STN from the bottom up, after about a week, it has completely taken over the lower/smaller branches that are near the plug around a cm long I'd guess.

My tank has been running hotter due to the change in seasons, the tank is in the basement, where it keeps the tank between 79 and under 80 during the summer with the AC on, but in the fall where the AC doesn't kick on, the tank tends to be 80 and even creep to near 82 by end of the day.

My lights are a combo VHO and T5's, the VHo's ar3 6 mo old and the T5's are coming up on 9 mo, I have replacements bought and need to change them out this week.

I'm not sure what it could be, but it sucks! :(

[Lemmy5]

As usual I typed a nice big reply only to have it freeze up when I tried to post it.

So in conclusion:
GFO and my experience with Bio pellets in my Phosban remover seem to be a link in my SPS bleaching.

[wesley6610]

I'm having similar issues as well, I did recently recharge my GFO, but I didn't add any more than I normally of 1 cup of GFO for 90 gallons of tank water. So I wasn't sure if my coral peeling was due to that or trace elements/iodine overdose since I have recently increased my two part method and I put trace in the calcium and iodine in the alk. I have since stopped the two part and done a water change to monitor over the next few days. Should I stop the kalk as well? What about the GFO reactor?

[DeathWish302]

I'm having similar issues as well, I did recently recharge my GFO, but I didn't add any more than I normally of 1 cup of GFO for 90 gallons of tank water. So I wasn't sure if my coral peeling was due to that or trace elements/iodine overdose since I have recently increased my two part method and I put trace in the calcium and iodine in the alk. I have since stopped the two part and done a water change to monitor over the next few days. Should I stop the kalk as well? What about the GFO reactor?

What is your PO4 measuring at? The reason I ask, is after I replaced my GFO 1 week ago with some fresh recharged BRS HC GFO my most bullet-proof sps (Sanjay's Pink Mille) started RTN and completed the trend on all frags I cut on Thursday last evening. :sad2:

I can only attribute this to the GFO and the rapid drop of the PO4 this must have had. I'm understanding more with coral color, survival and explosive growth have to do with walking a PO4 tightrope.

[gig]

Of course stability is the key to keep SPS and I am very careful now when adding fresh GFO not to put too much, maybe half if what I require, when I overloaded it, that's when I saw bad things a happen.

[wesley6610]

My PO4 by Salifert test kits is undetectable at this point, just tested it Saturday. I think the GFO might have been the issue, but I started to wonder if the trace elements was the issue, just unsure. I use the BRS granular pellets for my GFO and only change out once every 4 weeks at one cup. However, lately I have had to replace it more frequently as I had my alkalinity line dripping in the sump near the pump feeding the GFO and coated the ferric oxide with white film. I have since moved it to another location and it's fine, but perhaps the constant recharging of the GFO stripped the tank, but would that cause polyp shrinking and paleness in SPS only? My LPS and clams are fine, same for my inverts, just my SPS that are stressed. I took the refugium offline this morning, should I feed the tank to help re-establish that nutrient?

[DeathWish302]

My PO4 by Salifert test kits is undetectable at this point, just tested it Saturday.

A little off topic, but I have seen the light and quit testing with Salifert and ELOS entirely for PO4. The new ULR Hanna meter cannot be beat if your only using it as a baseline for GFO changes. I love it and think it's the best money spent since a hydrometer I bought all those years ago.... Just letting you know so you don't go blind squinting at the color chart.

I think the GFO might have been the issue, but I started to wonder if the trace elements was the issue, just unsure. I use the BRS granular pellets for my GFO and only change out once every 4 weeks at one cup. However, lately I have had to replace it more frequently as I had my alkalinity line dripping in the sump near the pump feeding the GFO and coated the ferric oxide with white film. I have since moved it to another location and it's fine, but perhaps the constant recharging of the GFO stripped the tank, but would that cause polyp shrinking and paleness in SPS only? My LPS and clams are fine, same for my inverts, just my SPS that are stressed.

The sudden drop in available PO4 and NO3 play a crucial role in the sps food chain. These compounds support 'some' zooplankton that is produced in the tank to feed the sps, but mainly the sps has this as an accepted food source. Strip if away and now what they have become accustomed to is gone with no substitute. I've never had good success with the AA dosing or other 'additives' for coloration and have always found a few extra chunks of food is the best method for gaining this color back. Also, patience is the key when playing with GFO and sps coloration...too much GFO and you'll be ULNS with pale colors, too little and you'll never get the color to pop and have a 'brown' reef (IME).


I took the refugium offline this morning, should I feed the tank to help re-establish that nutrient?

Why? I would suggest against changing multiple facets on the system at this moment as you will not know what has/has not made a difference in your coloration. When we start playing mad scientist and not giving the system time to equalize, you will likely overshoot your target or miss completely several times. Believe me, I speak from experience that time is the only thing we do not have control of for a reef. Let it be for awhile and watch the results.

[wesley6610]

Makes perfect sense and after an additional water change last night, I simply turned off the GFO and will monitor over the coming weeks. I pruned away the branches of SPS that had already peeled white and prayerfully they will stop soon or I will be removing stumps. Also, I didn't take the fuge off just because, the cheap pump was clogged and apparently had been offline for at least a week, so while I wait for a replacement pump to come, I removed it from the back of the tank. I believe I will try to put the fuge in my sump, just need to make some room.

I will continue the normal feeding and additions routines in the mean time and update my journal as things change. This process has definitely taught me that recharging reactors takes a toll on water quality, even if the change is perceived as good, it might have strong effects. I am purchasing the Hanna checkers for Phosphate and Alkalinity this week and retiring the Salifert kits for those two areas. Do you find that they give accurate readings to what you once tested with?

[DeathWish302]

Do you find that they give accurate readings to what you once tested with?

I feel that accuracy, precision and an acceptable 'range' are three areas that have been scrutinized about these checkers.

Accuracy - IME, I have checked multiple samples several minutes to an hour apart of the same water sample with no detectable variance. I have measured tank water in this manner and also a sample of tank water that was 'juiced' with some Miracle Grow. Unfortunately, I cannot state if any additional reactions that may have occurred with additional substances in the Miracle Grow that would offset the measurement when using the Hanna powder and the ascorbic acid method. I would assume accuracy is within an acceptable range for a hobbyist.

Precision - I have no way to measure the exact PO4 concentration, nor do I care to. If I can obtain a value between 3 and 9 on the checker, I can accept that the measurement may be off. The checker may have a shift of 9 points for as much as I know. Until I would check against a known concentration of PO4 that the ascorbic acid method can measure, I know little of the precision of this unit.

This brings about the third area that truly has driven me to use the Hanna checker. Before the checker, I would shoot at th hip when it was time to change the GFO. After measuring my tank when GFO was taken offline (due to lack of time to recharge some before biz travel) and my two clown pairs were fed 2 times daily about 0.5gm per clown, I found my level was at 0.075ppm. I measured with the ELOS kit and since it measure not low enough, I assumed my level was 'good'. The Hanna checker came in about two weeks ago and I about dropped when I measured 0.075ppm. My GFO had been offline for about three weeks and in that time the dry food for the 2 week auto-feed had raised PO4 substantially. If I had measured with the ELOS, I would have said everything was good and moved on.... Big mistake! At elast now, I have a bit more flexibility in knowing a more 'precise' (loosely using the word mind you) method to obtain the level the GFO is currently at.

I use to measure GFO usage mainly by shooting at the hip and watching a patch of HA in my overflow that would diminish after changing the GFO and woudl slowly grow back. It was a good canary in the coal mine indicator, but was not flawless. That same patch of HA has died off completely in the past two weeks. Was this due to the Hanna meter, probably not. But it sure beats having to count on that single variable that I used before to measure GFO exhaustion.

To answer your question... they kick the snot out of any colorimeter kit on the market that I have tried. I didn't try D-D or Hanna, but if your going to spend $80+ on a colorimeter kit you might as well get a $200 meter. The these little beauties came along. I was skeptical, but I now feel this is a valuable tool....the best tool for a SPS junky.

[wesley6610]

Alright, all of that was very good information and has me preparing to buy the Hanna checkers for Alk and PO4 this weekend. I'm almost finished with my current stock of Salifert kits, so the timing is well. So my question at this point regarding the water being stripped of nutrients that could be the reason for my STNing, are water changes alone enough to re-establish healthy levels for the tank? My total tank volume is about 90 gallons and after tonight I will have done a 33% water change since Sunday and took the GFO and Carbon offline while corals attempt to recover. Anything else that I could or should do? Should the lights be left off during the recovery process or would that matter too much in your experience? Thanks.

[DeathWish302]

So my question at this point regarding the water being stripped of nutrients that could be the reason for my STNing, are water changes alone enough to re-establish healthy levels for the tank?

When you ask about 'nutrients', I'm expecting your talking about trace elements? If so, many reefers use small (~1%) daily or bi-daily water changes to regulate the flux of these elements. I perform 5gal changes every other day on my ~175-200gal system, so I'm performing about a 2.5% WC. If you talk to the Zeovit guys/gals, they'll tell you that you should experiment with every additive including the kitchen sink. In my past, I have added many additives. One such example was Potassium. I finally bought a test kit about 3 months ago and found my K was at 580ppm, 200ppm OVER NSW. Moral of the story is if you can't measure it with a kit, don't add it in the beginning. Once you understand the dynamics of your system, you can experiment. In that same breath, even an experienced reefer as myself overdosed a substance that I thought was a minimal addition over several years. Test and test frequently is the best advice I can give if your having problems.

If your talking about phosphate and nitrate, most salt mixes have a low level to zero amounts of these elements (as they should). This is gained by a higher feeding rate in my system.


My total tank volume is about 90 gallons and after tonight I will have done a 33% water change since Sunday and took the GFO and Carbon offline while corals attempt to recover. Anything else that I could or should do? Should the lights be left off during the recovery process or would that matter too much in your experience? Thanks.

What is your photoperiod? I have also noticed that with higher wattage lighting rigs, the prolonged exposure can fade colors. I'm talking about 100W+ per sq. ft or the 400W over my 58gal Oceanic. My photoperiod was 10 hrs awhile back and the colors started fading over many months. I have since cut it back to only 7 hrs and noticed a dramatic color difference. Besides possibly cutting your photoperiod back to 5-7hrs of halide, there isn't much you can do but ride out the storm. Corals perish in some situations regardless of the effort you put forth to save them. The brutal reality is many of the TOTM members won't tell you to your face, but they have a 5gal bucket full of skeletons from frags, mini-colonies and wild colonies for that beautiful 180gal DT. I have spoke with a few and personally know some and it happens to the best tanks too. Make it through this storm and eventually you'll see the horizon.

[wesley6610]

When I say "nutrients", I was simply thinking of any and all things that may have been out of balance in the tank to due to over-use of the GFO. The only additions to my tank that I dose is some trace elements and iodine in very small amounts, but now that you mention the not being able to test it part, makes more sense. I will focus on keeping the tank fed well as I have recently started using more higher quality fish and coral foods with more protein content than before. I'm documenting all of the changes that I'm seeing throughout this storm and it is definitely a learning experience. Thanks so much for your advice.

[DeathWish302]

When I say "nutrients", I was simply thinking of any and all things that may have been out of balance in the tank to due to over-use of the GFO.

When using GFO, the only thing that 'could' be affected is alkalinity and Ca (due to clumping and coating the granules). You would have to use an absurd amount of GFO to have that happen. GFO should not negatively impact any nutrients except PO4 that routine WC's would not fix.

[Dog boy Dave]

Over the years I have seen many corals loose tissue slowly from the base up. This is a natural almost universal coral reaction to chronic stress. By loosing tissue in the base area out towards the tips the coral is effectively fragging itself and separating the individual tips into individual colonies. I have seen this happen to coral exposed to AEFW and several different long term water quality issues. Often, if the sourse of the stress is eliminated some of the tips will survive. My point here is that the symptoms all of the different people on this thread are seeing in their tanks could be due to different kinds of stress but they are all due to a long term "chronic" stress. Eliminate the sourse of the stress and the corals remaining will likely recover. Unless you are finding parasites on your corals, removing or fraging corals showing damage is likely to prove ineffective. While i cant speak to the "low nutrient" school, which have thier own unique chemical demands, in a conventional active high energy reef tank these kind of coral losses are usually due to high phosphates or defective, worn components or exhausted resins and carbon in your water treatment system. To address the phosphate issue I have seen people jump start a high energy system that has begun to languish as some of these seem to be doing by increasing flow and or adding the comercial bacteria cultures available at your lfs. In a conventional high energy system the only additives needed are alk and ca. Trace eliments are supplied by water changes and food added to the tank. Once again, i cant speak to the low nutrient systems but I would be surprised if these incedents of slow tissue loss are all caused by the same kind of stress.

[Oldtimer]

I’m also in the same camp as others here. Large SPS system which has been up and running for about 1.5 years.

A brief overview of my system is as follows:

240 gal Display
450 gal Total System
Established 3/27/2010
Clean-up crew added 4/21/2010
First Fish added 7/25/2010
First Coral added 8/10/2010

All water comes from a BRS 6 Stage Chloramines RO/DI system with TDS always reading zero after the second DI canister.

Salt has primarily been Red Sea Coral Pro mixed approx 50/50 with Tropic Marin Pro Reef. 10-15% water changes every month.

Filtration:
* Bubble King 300 Deluxe External gravity fed directly by display tank overflow
* Carbon in fluidized reactor - changed monthly
* Filter socks in sump - cleaned weekly with vinegar/water in washing machine and finally rinsed in RO/DI water. Socks Replaced Monthly.
* Filter sponge as pre-filter to sump return pump inlet - cleaned weekly with vinegar/water and finally rinsed in RO/DI water
* 150 lbs+ Live Rock between Display and Frag Tank
* 100 lbs+ Live Sand (SSB in Display plus DSB in Fuge)
* 40 gal Refugium with Chaeto which grows very slowly if at all

Circulation:
* Vortech MPW40 x 2
* Tunze 6105 x 1
* Tunze Wavebox x 1
* Dart Gold (Sump return and feed to frag tank & fuge)

Lighting:
* 2x 250W Reeflux 12K + 1x 400w Radium MH's - 8hr photoperiod
* 2x 80W T5's (Dimmable for sunrise/sunset) - 11 hr photoperiod
* T5's on fuge and frag tank

Heating/Cooling:
* 400W heater in sump and fan over tank controlled via Profilux.
* All tanks are housed in a dedicated fish room (In wall display).
* Fish room has it's own ventilation and A/C system.
* Tank Temperature maintained between 25.9 C (78.6 F) and 26.4 C (79.5 F) during day.
* Tank Temperature maintained between 25.4 C(77.7 F) and 25.9 C (78.6 F) during night.

Control/Supplementation:
* Profilux II Plus EX system with ORP, pH, Temp, Salinity Control
* Profilux 4 channel dosing unit for top off (trigged by Conductivity probe) and Balling Salts (Alk, Ca and Mg)

Over the past few weeks, I’ve been seeing STN on a few of my acros. Many of my acros are doing fine with no signs of STN or discoloration. Among these are my milli’s, valida’s, torts, red planet, shades of fall, strawberry fields and stags. I’ve already lost a mini Echinata colony, a colorful Aussie sp, and a teal acro. Joe the Coral purple tips are turning white although polyp extension is good. My beloved crayola plana and chips are showing nearly zero polyp extension. This is very abnormal for them. My Miami Orchid is pale white and losing tissue at the base and the tissue along the branches is thinning… same case with a Youngi. All monti’s, seriatopora, pocillopora and stylophora are doing great. I also have a few small to medium (3-5”) colonies of Acan’s, some zoos, a few chalices, a scoly, a 6” colony of ricordea and a small hammer frag. Acro’s dominate the system.

I have been through my battles with red bugs and AEFW and there are no signs of either on these. I treated the entire system with Interceptor several months ago and the red bugs have not returned. I baste all acro’s weekly to check for AEFW and I also dip some occasionally in revive. There are no signs of the buggers.

I’m suspecting a possible low nutrient issue based on what I’ve read and my system’s specs. There is a small harem of Anthias (7 female + 1 male), 3 green chromis, yellow coris wrasse, chalk basslet, sailfin tang and mandarin. I feed them one cube of mysis or spirulina brine shrimp combined with a small (half as big as a cube) piece of Rod’s reef food once per day. I also give them a 1.5” square of nori once per day. I add a couple drops of Lugol’s once per day. Aside from that, I don’t regularly supplement other than the BRS 2 part solution which is automiatically dosed even throughout the day via a Profiulx dosing unit. Latest parameters are as follows:

pH – 8-8.2
Alk – 10.2 dkh (Salifert)
Ca – 410 to 420 (Salifert)
Mg – 1300+ (Salifert)
P04 – 0.03 ppm (Hanna ULR)
N03 and NH3 – Undetectable (Salifert)
Spec gravity – 1.022 (Lab grade hydrometer), Salinity is regulated via conductivity probe hooked up to Profilux controller and kept within +/- 0.2 ms using one dosing channel as RO/DI top off
Redox – I’ve debated this one before, but my redox runs really high and I’ve cal’d the probe many times. It’s consistently 450+mv. I just use it as a gauge for significant changes in the system

I was running a couple cups of BRS GFO in a fluidized reactor and changing it every 4 weeks until a couple weeks ago when I saw that my P04 was down to 0.0015. I find the media to be a real pain as it turns into a solid mass in the reactor and impedes water flow. I also run BRS GAC and change it every 4 weeks. I last changed it 2 weeks ago. I have 2 filter socks in the sumps which I clean every week in vinegar and change every 4 weeks. I do a 10-15% water change once a month using a mix of Red Seal Coral Pro and Tropic Marin Pro.

There have been no significant changes in my system in the last several weeks. The MH and T5 bulbs are a few months old. Over the last several months, I have been fighting a nasty red hair like cyano. After tirelessly basting all the rocks and substrate weekly, I finally purchased some Coral Snow, Zeobak and Zeozym per the recommendation of others and dosed them per the prescribed amount for 2 weeks. I just finished that 2 weeks ago. Perhaps these helped further strip nutrients from the water??

About a week ago, I started adding small amounts of ELOS amino acids and Brightwell Zooplanktos-L every couple days or so. I am just suspecting possible starved corals and trying to get some more nutrients in the water. I did notice some improved polyp extension on my red planet and Joe the Coral, but no change in the Chips or Crayola Plana which are normally about as hairy as a milli.

Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks!

[rigleautomotive]

I’m also in the same camp as others here. Large SPS system which has been up and running for about 1.5 years.

A brief overview of my system is as follows:

240 gal Display
450 gal Total System
Established 3/27/2010
Clean-up crew added 4/21/2010
First Fish added 7/25/2010
First Coral added 8/10/2010

All water comes from a BRS 6 Stage Chloramines RO/DI system with TDS always reading zero after the second DI canister.

Salt has primarily been Red Sea Coral Pro mixed approx 50/50 with Tropic Marin Pro Reef. 10-15% water changes every month.

Filtration:
* Bubble King 300 Deluxe External gravity fed directly by display tank overflow
* Carbon in fluidized reactor - changed monthly
* Filter socks in sump - cleaned weekly with vinegar/water in washing machine and finally rinsed in RO/DI water. Socks Replaced Monthly.
* Filter sponge as pre-filter to sump return pump inlet - cleaned weekly with vinegar/water and finally rinsed in RO/DI water
* 150 lbs+ Live Rock between Display and Frag Tank
* 100 lbs+ Live Sand (SSB in Display plus DSB in Fuge)
* 40 gal Refugium with Chaeto which grows very slowly if at all

Circulation:
* Vortech MPW40 x 2
* Tunze 6105 x 1
* Tunze Wavebox x 1
* Dart Gold (Sump return and feed to frag tank & fuge)

Lighting:
* 2x 250W Reeflux 12K + 1x 400w Radium MH's - 8hr photoperiod
* 2x 80W T5's (Dimmable for sunrise/sunset) - 11 hr photoperiod
* T5's on fuge and frag tank

Heating/Cooling:
* 400W heater in sump and fan over tank controlled via Profilux.
* All tanks are housed in a dedicated fish room (In wall display).
* Fish room has it's own ventilation and A/C system.
* Tank Temperature maintained between 25.9 C (78.6 F) and 26.4 C (79.5 F) during day.
* Tank Temperature maintained between 25.4 C(77.7 F) and 25.9 C (78.6 F) during night.

Control/Supplementation:
* Profilux II Plus EX system with ORP, pH, Temp, Salinity Control
* Profilux 4 channel dosing unit for top off (trigged by Conductivity probe) and Balling Salts (Alk, Ca and Mg)

Over the past few weeks, I’ve been seeing STN on a few of my acros. Many of my acros are doing fine with no signs of STN or discoloration. Among these are my milli’s, valida’s, torts, red planet, shades of fall, strawberry fields and stags. I’ve already lost a mini Echinata colony, a colorful Aussie sp, and a teal acro. Joe the Coral purple tips are turning white although polyp extension is good. My beloved crayola plana and chips are showing nearly zero polyp extension. This is very abnormal for them. My Miami Orchid is pale white and losing tissue at the base and the tissue along the branches is thinning… same case with a Youngi. All monti’s, seriatopora, pocillopora and stylophora are doing great. I also have a few small to medium (3-5”) colonies of Acan’s, some zoos, a few chalices, a scoly, a 6” colony of ricordea and a small hammer frag. Acro’s dominate the system.

I have been through my battles with red bugs and AEFW and there are no signs of either on these. I treated the entire system with Interceptor several months ago and the red bugs have not returned. I baste all acro’s weekly to check for AEFW and I also dip some occasionally in revive. There are no signs of the buggers.

I’m suspecting a possible low nutrient issue based on what I’ve read and my system’s specs. There is a small harem of Anthias (7 female + 1 male), 3 green chromis, yellow coris wrasse, chalk basslet, sailfin tang and mandarin. I feed them one cube of mysis or spirulina brine shrimp combined with a small (half as big as a cube) piece of Rod’s reef food once per day. I also give them a 1.5” square of nori once per day. I add a couple drops of Lugol’s once per day. Aside from that, I don’t regularly supplement other than the BRS 2 part solution which is automiatically dosed even throughout the day via a Profiulx dosing unit. Latest parameters are as follows:

pH – 8-8.2
Alk – 10.2 dkh (Salifert)
Ca – 410 to 420 (Salifert)
Mg – 1300+ (Salifert)
P04 – 0.03 ppm (Hanna ULR)
N03 and NH3 – Undetectable (Salifert)
Spec gravity – 1.022 (Lab grade hydrometer), Salinity is regulated via conductivity probe hooked up to Profilux controller and kept within +/- 0.2 ms using one dosing channel as RO/DI top off
Redox – I’ve debated this one before, but my redox runs really high and I’ve cal’d the probe many times. It’s consistently 450+mv. I just use it as a gauge for significant changes in the system

I was running a couple cups of BRS GFO in a fluidized reactor and changing it every 4 weeks until a couple weeks ago when I saw that my P04 was down to 0.0015. I find the media to be a real pain as it turns into a solid mass in the reactor and impedes water flow. I also run BRS GAC and change it every 4 weeks. I last changed it 2 weeks ago. I have 2 filter socks in the sumps which I clean every week in vinegar and change every 4 weeks. I do a 10-15% water change once a month using a mix of Red Seal Coral Pro and Tropic Marin Pro.

There have been no significant changes in my system in the last several weeks. The MH and T5 bulbs are a few months old. Over the last several months, I have been fighting a nasty red hair like cyano. After tirelessly basting all the rocks and substrate weekly, I finally purchased some Coral Snow, Zeobak and Zeozym per the recommendation of others and dosed them per the prescribed amount for 2 weeks. I just finished that 2 weeks ago. Perhaps these helped further strip nutrients from the water??

About a week ago, I started adding small amounts of ELOS amino acids and Brightwell Zooplanktos-L every couple days or so. I am just suspecting possible starved corals and trying to get some more nutrients in the water. I did notice some improved polyp extension on my red planet and Joe the Coral, but no change in the Chips or Crayola Plana which are normally about as hairy as a milli.

Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks!

This sounds very similar to my experiences with P and N manipulation with bacteria.I have seen large colonies of mine that have thrived for many years decline shortly after employing this type of nutrient control.First sign would be decreased polyp extension and then lightening.Shortly there after stn at the bases of colonies that only encrusted and grew previously.I saw all my milleporas go bare and loose PE along with noticeable loss in all acros.Discontinuing use of bacteria dosing and returning back to my old school methods for nutrient control would prove to reverse this after a few months.

I have witnessed this 2 times in the last 3 years and my opinion is bacteria dosing is not the best method to control nutrients for my system.Every system and reef is very different so I am sure probiotics and bacteria type systems work great for others but its not for me.


also,is there a reason you are running sg on the low side.I like it at 1.025 to 1.026 as does the majority

[Oldtimer]

Thanks for the feedback Dan. I appreciate it. I'm tending to think the same the more I study this. I'm going to continue slowly adding nutrients into the system while watching P04.

As for sg, I monitor and control salinity via a conductivity probe and the Profilux controller which regulates a dosing pump that tops off RO/DI. When I set it up, it was set at 53 ms which corresponds to 34 ppt or 1.026 sg at 26 C. I checked it against a calibrated refractometer a few times and they agreed fairly closely. That said, I trust my lab grade hydrometer more and it says I'm at 1.022 or 1.023 at best. I've read that some have had great success with SPS at these lower numbers and aside from this issue my system seems to operate well here. Sometimes, better to leave well enough alone. I don't think it's related to what I'm experiencing with the STN, but I'm certainly open to other insight here.

Andy

[ronharel]

Your SG is very low without any reason
1.022 = 30 PPT which is about 20% lower from what it should be - 35 PPT or even higher as it's presented in NSW. 35 PPT is not only salinity (nacl) but a combination of all the other salts like CA MG K S and others. by lowering your SG you're lowering those salts as well and adding those salts in order to get balance will effect the ionic balance and may cause the SPS to react.
I think you should try reaching 35 PPT in slow moves and check the change.
will be glad to have updates

[Reef_Noob]

Actually I'm having the EXACT same problem. I've been riddled scratching my head for the last 2 months or so. All my tests are coming out fine but my salinity was a little high (1.030). I'm slowly dropping it back to 1.025 with fresh water changes. I'm also using RODI but mine comes in around 2ppm. I thought maybe bulbs, my 250 halides are about 10 months old now just doesnt seem consistent with where the pieces are that are receeding. And my bubble king its pulling out nasty stuff as usual, running carbon and phosban and thats all been changed monthly as part of my maintenance schedule. I do about a 10 gallon water change once a week on mine. For a while there I was doing 20 gallons a week to try and re-establish my base elements again as my tank has been up for a while, it doesnt appear that helped at all cept burn through some salt.

I'm starting to loose some of my ORA's now so I'm really hoping this is something easy we're overlooking.

Hi Nick

Salinity of 1.030 is quite high and with ya trying to bring it back to 1.025 will add on to salinity, pH, Alk instability.
Do you hav high phosphates? Changing or even that matter continuously running GFO has been proven to cause STN.
If it will be me I would stop it unless u see a spike in PO4 and use 3/4 the recommended amount and once the PO4 values get down stop it's use. Since you are doing regular water changes PO4 might not be a big issue.

About the ppm of the RO water, it would be best to add an additional DI filter and get it to 0ppm believe me ur corals will love it.
And the MH halide bulbs do check their PAR readings. Some lose PAR quite fast and iv known reefers changing bulbs as often as 6 months to keep the lighting a constant. And the SPS thrive.

SPS like stability. Some SPS are very sensitive even to slightest instability and start going downhill. But some go brown and put up a lil fight and pick up back.

Just a few suggestions that came into my mind.
Hope it helps and hope all ur corals will get back in great condition. Do keep us posted. :wave:

[Oldtimer]

Your SG is very low without any reason
1.022 = 30 PPT which is about 20% lower from what it should be - 35 PPT or even higher as it's presented in NSW. 35 PPT is not only salinity (nacl) but a combination of all the other salts like CA MG K S and others. by lowering your SG you're lowering those salts as well and adding those salts in order to get balance will effect the ionic balance and may cause the SPS to react.
I think you should try reaching 35 PPT in slow moves and check the change.
will be glad to have updates


I'm certainly open to raising salinity. As to whether or not it will address the STN, I'm not convinced one way or the other. I have my doubts since the system has been operating like this for several months minimum... since I first introduced the hydrometer and corals have been thriving otherwise aside from some pests that I previously delt with... the good news is that salinity is easy to slowly change by adjusting the conductivity set point in small increments. I'll bring it up very slowly and report back. That said, I'm sticking with more frequent feeding and ditching the Zeo products. I saw little benefit against the cyano anyway. It was only after introducing the Zeobak, Coralsnow and Zeozym that I began seeing the STN. So, I'm tending to think they cleaned the water to such a degree that my small feedings did not provide enough food to the system. We'll see.

Just noticed tissue loss on the tips of my crayola plana which has had almost no polyp extension now for several days. I may try to frag it, but have a feeling it's on the way out at this point. :(

[CUNAReefer]

This sounds very similar to my experiences with P and N manipulation with bacteria.I have seen large colonies of mine that have thrived for many years decline shortly after employing this type of nutrient control.First sign would be decreased polyp extension and then lightening.Shortly there after stn at the bases of colonies that only encrusted and grew previously.I saw all my milleporas go bare and loose PE along with noticeable loss in all acros.Discontinuing use of bacteria dosing and returning back to my old school methods for nutrient control would prove to reverse this after a few months.

I have witnessed this 2 times in the last 3 years and my opinion is bacteria dosing is not the best method to control nutrients for my system.Every system and reef is very different so I am sure probiotics and bacteria type systems work great for others but its not for me.

also,is there a reason you are running sg on the low side.I like it at 1.025 to 1.026 as does the majority

Wow! I cant believe that this is happening so often when employing ULNS tanks. This just happened to me over the past two weeks. I started Zeovit using all the recommended dosages for starting a new tank, and started seeing STN on a couple of my acros. Today, I have taken my ZEOReactor offline and stopped using the carbon reactor. My plum crazy, hawkins, and green lantern monti have all shown STN. I dosed the following daily:

5 drops zeobak
5 drops zeofood
1 ML Zeostart (.5ml in am & pm)

I also used .35 L of carbon and 1 L of ZEOlites.

Within 10 days my plum crazy and green lantern monti started to STN. Within 14 days my hawkins has lost half its skin and others are just starting to STN. Today I performed a 20% water change and have gone back to my oldschool way of keeping corals... until stabelized. I do plan on trying zeo again after my tank has stabalized. I have ordered a new PC4 to turn the reactors on for only a couple hours a day. I will also reduce my daily dosing to twice a week. ZEOVit products are very dangerous if not used properly!

James

[Iskandar]

I would stop Ca and PFO reactors, switch to bionic for awhile.

[timvdb]

Just reading thru this interesting post and i think that you are missing one of the most important points in biology: all living animals need NPK. K has been totally forgotten from the equation by the aquarium hobby as a whole and you should try to supplement K and check the reaction of your corals as suggested in the attached article.

http://www.burgerszoo.eu/media/108815/chapter%2016.pdf

Summary is that there is a large consumption of potassium in a reeftank and that is not properly measured (it is impossible with the currently available test kits to have a precise measurements as they all depend on dillution of 10x+ which grealty impact the precision of the results).

I would suggest that you add a good wallop of potassium supplement to your tank and check the results in terms of PE, colours and slow down/ improvement of the STN. The article suggests to add 50mg/l which i think is too much. Start with 1/10th of that.

Good luck!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[gig]

I've been dosing brightwell's potassion for a few months now, seems to have good results and I've heard it helps with the blue colored corals as well (to keep blue).

[gig]

I would suggest that you add a good wallop of potassium supplement to your tank and check the results in terms of PE, colours and slow down/ improvement of the STN. The article suggests to add 50mg/l which i think is too much. Start with 1/10th of that.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

would caution that a "good wallop" of anything for a reef is a bad idea! :)

but your latter statement make sense, start small, build up if necessary.

[BradR]

Going to try a refugium and lessen carbon dosing/GFO. And so we come full circle...

[Scoobysnack77]

I think GFO is the problem. My SPS started to STN when I added too much GFO.
Im starting to think gfo is the problem too. i recently added a bit extra in my reactor as my phosphates rose to about .08. after i did that ALL of my acros started bleaching from the base. i took my gfo/carbon offline for a few days and its still progressing. all of my parameters are perfect. I'm not sure what else to do but I'm loosing some very gorgeous acros at the moment so I'm quite sad :( I've done 2 large water changes as well along with removing half my chaeto and denitrate stones to try to get my nitrates to show up on my tests because its currently undetectable. my phosphates are .03 at the moment and I'm just going to use water changes to keep it down for a bit because i have a funny feeling that gfo/carbon strips the water column of trace elements if used in high amounts. ill let you know if things get better

[DavidinGA]

Thread resurrection.....


I'm now running into the same issue where sps are randomly and very slowly dying from the base up :(

[markalot]

First check would be a clear macro shots with a camera to make sure you don't have AEFW.

[chgoblknazn]

I've been dealing with this for the last few months. I noticed that one of my Stylos was looking dead toward the bottom. I assumed it was because the branches were shading the lower parts of the mini-colony. I didn't really think anything of it until it began starting on another coral...and then another.

The loss of polyps is very slow so I didn't panic but I was beginning to become concerned. A couple month ago several others began to show the same loss and many of my corals were losing color and browning out. My Calcium and Alkalinity were perfect. My Phosphates were not great but not at a crazy level. I bought new reagents and new salt. Nothing changed.

I then decided to take the BRS GFO and the BRS Carbon offline. The tissue loss stopped and in a few weeks the color has come back on many of my corals. My GARF Bonsai went from brown to purple and my Tyree Pink Lemonade went from white to brightish green again. The top of my Cali Tort was gone but there is new growth already growing over the exposed skeleton. My Millies didn't seem stressed but I am not seeing better PE.

I'm attributing the issues with running GFO and Carbon. I don't know which one was causing the issue but I think it might have been the Carbon. I took the GFO offline a couple weeks before I stopped running carbon and during the couple weeks the loss was still occurring and the corals were still brown.

I want to run each one again separately to test but I am scared to give either a try. My system is small so I only ran small amounts. I'm glad I only lost 2-3 frags. The other corals are recovering including a couple that shed half of their skin. I got serious about this when my ORA Pearlberry began to show loss. It began losing skin FAST. I thought it was a goner but I can see live skin under the blues. This was very frustrating to deal with.