SPS Death in less Than 24 hours

[fishmonger2]

So I've now lost 2 sps in less than 24 hours. On Thursday I moved an orange cup from the top of my 55 with 150 w halides to the middle. It had been getting stung by a couple of other corals and had a piece of it that was already dead, so I moved it to an open spot in the middle of the tank where it would be fine. Well when my lights were on Friday I noticed it was 3/4 dead and then by Saturday it was completely dead. Well I wasn't too surprised because it had been attacked and I moved it. But today I came home and found a tri-color acro completely dead minus one patch. Now I have never had an issue with this coral, I've had it for a few months (probably june), had decent growth and on Saturday night was perfectly fine.

My water parameters are such using salifert kits:

Nitrates undetectable
Phosphates undetectable
Alkalinity 10.2 dkh or 3.66 meq/l
Calcium was 370 on Thursday and added a couple scoops of tropic marin bio calcium but my buddy has my test so I don't know what it's at right now.


The only other thing worth noting, is that I just put in a Vortech MP40 on Wednesday. I replaced two koralia's a 2 on the right side and a three on the left. Both these corals are on the left where the koralia three was.

Any thoughts as to what could cause such a quick death in SPS?

[fishmonger2]

Thinking out loud but could it be an adjustment thing due to the Vortech? I've never heard of such a thing happening but it's the only recent change in the tank. Unless you count the lack of electricity that the tank was accustomed to because of the Koralia's. :D

[iammrbiggs]

looks to me like alk is a little high .i shoot for 8-9.calcium is a little low also .i want at least 450.where is your magnesium.what is your ph

[fishmonger2]

My alk is always there though if not a little higher. I know they there are people who vary on the alkalinity they keep, but a big thing is stability. Yea calcium is low and P.H. typically 8.0 but again it's always there. Not sure what Magnesium is right now it's been a couple weeks since I've tested. While some will say these numbers are not optimal or what they do, again this is normal for my tank. Conditions that these SPS have been living under for months if not longer.

This rapid death is unusual, I've had an sps die for various reasons but always over time. Never has an entire specimen died in 24 hours. That leads me to believe something extreme in the water, but I can't place what..

[iammrbiggs]

are you keeping any large leathers sinularia.may produce toxins.i would also check on the magnesium.may be depleted.do you drip kalk

[fishmonger2]

No leathers, only a few small mushrooms but they aren't of a great size. When I checked magnesium about 2 weeks ago it was in the ideal range, I just don't remember the number. I also did a water change about a week after that. While it may be low it shouldn't be depleted. And no I've never dripped kalk. The only thing that could produce toxins would have been some zoa's that I added Saturday night. One of them was a loose colony I handled and was rubber banding to a rock. Even if it were the toxins from them it doesn't explain the cap.

[iammrbiggs]

how do you keep a check on temp in tank.maybe changing the pumps out took away some heat from tank.i run my tank as close to 78 degrees as possible.i had problems once with my temperature probe not reading correctly.

[iammrbiggs]

a change in temp could kill an acro

[cobra2326]

Don't SPS "communicate" when something is wrong? I want to say I read in Aquarium Corals that an RTN even can trigger other corals to do the same.

[fishmonger2]

how do you keep a check on temp in tank.maybe changing the pumps out took away some heat from tank.i run my tank as close to 78 degrees as possible.i had problems once with my temperature probe not reading correctly.

I use a standard thermometer and then a cheap digital one to check against each other. They both read about 78 when lights are off and 80 when lights are on. Before putting the vortech in it would get about 81 and close to 82 with lights on.

[fishmonger2]

Well I lost another one today, this time a little tortusa. I've had this piece since probably march or sometime when before the summer began. It had originally fallen off it's frag plug and got pretty beaten up and was dying. I then shoved it in a whole where it completely healed over and grew over the rock and it had been there since May/June. Well last night I looked at it and the base was a little dead but the rest of it was fine. I had planned on bringing my water into work today to test it against my tests, and to purchase some carbon. Well I woke up today and it's completely dead.

All three corals are in the exact same spot, and right next to each other. There is something in common I'm missing here. I have 9/10 sps on the right side of the 55 next to the vortech. All are fine, none seem to be dying. I had 5 on the left side away from the vortech and they all were in close proximity with each other. None touching yet. But I've lost the orange cap, tri-color acro and a tort. That leaves only an encrusting green monti and a really nice green cap which if I lose I will be ****ed.

The only thing I can think of is flow, because the other side isn't affected. On that left side there used to be a koralia three and my tank return was on the left side. Since I added the Vortech last wednesday (which is on the right) it's only had the return on the left side. My first thought was it was set to high, (but then why wouldn't all the corals next to be having any issues?) and then I thought it might be too low. But it was set probably around 65-75% power which an MP40 set at that level should not be too low.

Regardless I'm putting a carbon in today just in case.

[sedor]

Maybe try adding a couple of the Koralias back onto the opposite side of the tank and turn the vortech down a little bit so you can wean the tank onto the new flow. After a while remove one, and then another while later, the other. Although I have to admit i've never come across someone having a problem moving from Koralias to a vortech. I would think the Vortech would give a much more random flow pattern thus making the SPS a lot more happy. Good luck...

[fishmonger2]

Maybe try adding a couple of the Koralias back onto the opposite side of the tank and turn the vortech down a little bit so you can wean the tank onto the new flow. After a while remove one, and then another while later, the other. Although I have to admit i've never come across someone having a problem moving from Koralias to a vortech. I would think the Vortech would give a much more random flow pattern thus making the SPS a lot more happy. Good luck...

I know. Our store has sold a ton in our area and no one has ever had that complaint, which is why I'm hesitant to blame the vortech. But I have not had any issues (I mean I've lost an sps every once in awhile for various reasons, but not like this) like this before. And these are all corals that I've had for months, and the only drastic change to the tank was adding that. I'll come back with the second water sample test later today and I turned down the Vortech to about 50% to see if that helps.

[roiy]

If the RTN is happening to corals sitting on the same side it could really be lightning or flow.
Are both sides are at the same height from the lightning ?
If they are than i would have point to flow. Try and make more flow to the affected area. You could arrange you're sps corals by the flow and lightning needed by the coral and put less needing sps at the side with less flow and the ones that need the most put on the side with you're best flow.

[fishmonger2]

If the RTN is happening to corals sitting on the same side it could really be lightning or flow.
Are both sides are at the same height from the lightning ?
If they are than i would have point to flow. Try and make more flow to the affected area. You could arrange you're sps corals by the flow and lightning needed by the coral and put less needing sps at the side with less flow and the ones that need the most put on the side with you're best flow.

It's not light, like I said these corals have been in the same place and growing for at least 5 months. It is probably flow because that is the only thing that changed in the last week, but flow should have increased. Even at 75% a Vortech MP40 will have more output than a koralia 3. So I think it might have been too much flow and have to dial it down a bit.

[roiy]

It's not light, like I said these corals have been in the same place and growing for at least 5 months. It is probably flow because that is the only thing that changed in the last week, but flow should have increased. Even at 75% a Vortech MP40 will have more output than a koralia 3. So I think it might have been too much flow and have to dial it down a bit.

Before changing the flow did the affected corals used to take polyps out ? Could you see the polyps move with the water movement ?
Do they move now ?
It could be that the koralia was giving more flow to that area than the vortech does ?

[fishmonger2]

Before changing the flow did the affected corals used to take polyps out ? Could you see the polyps move with the water movement ?
Do they move now ?
It could be that the koralia was giving more flow to that area than the vortech does ?

Before the vortech the tort had really good extension and the acro was fair to average, and honestly it didn't seem to change much if at all.

[fishmonger2]

For those who care or might be following this thread:

Tested my water last night and:

P.H. was 7.9/8 ( I know it's low but it's always at that point)
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate Undetectable
Phosphates Undetectable
Calcium 400
Magnesium 1170
Alkalinity I haven't tested since Thursday when it was around 10.2 dkh but it probably is still close to that range.

So the guys I work with were tossing around ideas as to what could be going and and there was one we came up with. There was potentially something already bothering them (as we talked about that I realized neither of those corals had shown any real good signs of growth lately) and the new and extra flow was too much stress causing the flesh to blow off.

Well I came home from work last night, and my green encrusting montipora was starting to die off a bit. I preceded to turn down the Vortech. When I woke up this morning I checked it again and it was dying more, but finally I got to notice something I never saw with the others. The coral was dying but there was a thin layer of flesh blowing around and still somewhat attached to the coral. So it appears that the flow was too much and was blowing flesh off. I turned down the Vortech more and the flesh is barley moving now, and I will dip it later to help heal it up.

So the current theory that I'm working with, is that I'm an idiot for not slowly breaking in the flow of the Vortech when I first put it on. I should have started at below 50% and worked my way up instead of starting at around 60-70%. I can only blame myself. Also I'm increasing the magnesium to the levels it should be. But now it's just a wait and see if this changes anything. My only question is if this is true and the flesh was being blown off from too much flow why aren't all my SPS in front of the Vortech having the same issue. Also I'll be looking for any thing that might have been stressing the corals in the first place.

[stooges3tx]

I run my Mg higher Ca higher and Alk lower than you. :)

One thing is for sure, if you keep sps you are going to lose a bit here and there. The only way to rebound IMO is to test like a madman and bring your parameters back to a steady point. Assuming parameters when you are having issues is asking to have more issues IMO.

Also, any healthy SPS can tolerate a slight change. Flow and lighting are among more drastic IMO. Another words healthy SPS should be able to handle the daily swings in parameters and such due to X-low z-high but if you drop a bomb on them with lights or flow it is curtains for them. On the flip side, if you are dead on with your params daily, weekly, etc... you can drop a bomb and see them get ****ed at you then rebound with no problems.

Biggest thing at this point for you would be IMO test test test tone down the flow and don't do anything else. Remember it is consistency that breeds success with SPS.

SPS= Stability Promotes Success! :p I love that quote.

[fishmonger2]

Well my I normally keep my Calcium higher around 450-475 and my magnesium I just don't test that as often as I should. I've been consistently running it high, it's always around the same 10.2 dkh but am actually going to lower it now after talking to some people. And I'm well aware losing a piece here or there is normal and I've had that happen. But losing 3 going on 4 pieces in less than a week is not normal. Especially since the go from perfectly fine to dead in less than 24 hours. And believe me I test regularly, and don't ever assume parameters. However it has been a rather busy week so I'm not on everything as much as I normally am.

[coolfishy101]

This sounds like a chain effect. Starting with the cap, it probably died because of the war. If it got stung and then moved, it probably died from the stress of those two factors. Then the tri-color acro (probably the most sensitive sps in your tank) died because of the chemicals released from the dead tissue from the cap while the other corals were being more tolerant of the dead cap. Now the combination of the dead cap's tissue and the dead tri-color's tissue stressed the next least tolerant coral which killed it, and so on.

This is only a guess based on what would make sense to me. To fix this problem would involve a large water change, skimmer going at max capacity, and carbon. Unfortunately, I don't know if it's too late for this.

[fishmonger2]

This sounds like a chain effect. Starting with the cap, it probably died because of the war. If it got stung and then moved, it probably died from the stress of those two factors. Then the tri-color acro (probably the most sensitive sps in your tank) died because of the chemicals released from the dead tissue from the cap while the other corals were being more tolerant of the dead cap. Now the combination of the dead cap's tissue and the dead tri-color's tissue stressed the next least tolerant coral which killed it, and so on.

This is only a guess based on what would make sense to me. To fix this problem would involve a large water change, skimmer going at max capacity, and carbon. Unfortunately, I don't know if it's too late for this.

Yea the Cap I wasn't too surprised about because like I said earlier, it was getting stung and was moved. It's the other two (now three) that had me puzzled. (I threw carbon in last night and am already over skimming.)

[dave3112]

I wish you luck with your tank. I feel your pain. I have had my current sps tank set up for almost a year (been in the hobby for about 10 years total) and haven't added a single coral or fish since June. I have 2 MP10's that I run on reef crest mode at 100%. They have been there since May/June don't really remember when. My corals are ALL growing very well. really almost doubled in size since adding the vortecs to be honest. About two weeks ago I noitced that my orange cap was losing tissue and over the next couple of days it lost half of its tissue. it is about 6" X5" and has been in the tank since day one! NOTHING has changed to cause this. I pulled the coral out and put it in my LPS/ZOA tank that is only 2 months old and it has quit losing tissue. I only test PH 8.2, ALK 9, and CA 480. I drip 1 liter of kalk nightly. ALL other CORALS Acros, Montis, turbinaras are still and have been fine and growing through this time. I have come to the conclusion that some corals just go through this from time to time without any reason.

Just my .02 and personal thoughts/experiences!

And again good luck!

Dave

[coolfishy101]

Yea the Cap I wasn't too surprised about because like I said earlier, it was getting stung and was moved. It's the other two (now three) that had me puzzled. (I threw carbon in last night and am already over skimming.)

It will take a few days and at least an additional two days for each dead coral added on during recovery for things to stablize. (by stablize I don't mean normally tested levels, but toxins) Just keep doing water changes, which is most important, and keep changing out carbon with overskimming.

This might not be the problem, and might be something related to the vortec but not related to flow. Have you tried removing the vortec all together? Maybe it's a defect and it's not fully sealed and something is leaking out of it. Did you clean it before you put it in? Sometimes there is still chemicals on pumps from manufacturing. HTH Good Luck!

[danreefman]

ph should be never below 8.0 i never let mine bellow 8.2 try and keep it at 8.4 magnesium should be a lot closer to 1350 it is a very important piece of the puzzle that isnt looked at close enough. should be tested weakly it is a mojor element that holds the skin on the coral i would seriosly work on raising your magniesium. good luck i use esv