........Question on Deep Sand Bed............

[Xgame2k]

Lets say I get a Deep Sand Bed. Do I need to do anything to it in the long run? I hear many things so im not sure. I have heard that you need to replace it when it gets full and so on, not to vacuum it, add starfish, crabs,,,,and so on.... What is true?

[Xgame2k]

???

[alaska clowns]

I don't know much.....well, anything....about DSB's, but I stumbled across this thread on RC while doing research one day. It's how to do a remote DSB in a bucket, and it sounds like it's worth a try; in fact, I just put some bulkheads in my 5 gallon bucket, and I'm going to hook it up when I get my sump in place. It's an interesting read, anyhow, hope you find it helpful!
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=595109&pp=25

[Xgame2k]

that still doesnt answer any of my questions, but it would be cool if i wasn't going to put sand in my tank.

[ChadTheSpike]

Here are my thoughts on DSBs (I am a huge believer and have used them on all of my tanks for about the last 8 years, my longest running sandbed was about 5 years).
Stuff that goes in it: I dont add anything to my tanks that depletes the sandbed of microfauna (like sand-sifting stars or gobies). I think they eat too many of the beneficial pods and worms and such that make DSBs useful, crabs are ok in the DT but not a fuge. If your tank is large enough (I would say >2 square feet of accessible sand surface) a cucumber is beneficial.
Flow: higher than most think, at least 10x turnover, in a fuge usually flow is not high enough to maintain a DSB unless specific action is taken to increase it. Flow should be high enough that stuff doesnt easily settle. A healthy sandbed should 'look' clean, and flow is a large part of this.
Need to replace: Its not necessary, a healthy DSB processes waste, it doesnt 'fill up', although the sand does have a half-life as it dissolves into the water providing buffering and trace elements to the water chemistry. As such, the sand itself needs to be periodically added to, I add enough to make the depth always be greater than 6-7 inches. I do this by filling quart sized ziplocks with washed sand, then putting the entire bag into my tank and cutting it open, it minimizes the mess of doing so. I add some sand every few months and never more than about 1/4 at a time stirred into the top little bit of the existing bed.

[Xgame2k]

Thank you. This is what i was hoping for. So it will be fine to add new sand every couple of months even when it gets passed the recommended 4-6 inch maximum mark? I have a 450 gallon display tank with 120 gallon sump and was thinking of putting a deep sand bed in both (dead sand and a couple cups of live).

[billdogg]

I have a 150 DT with less than an inch, and a 120 fuge with ~6" (seperate 50g sump.

+1 on what was posted above! - but I use a long piece of 3"pvc to get the sand to the bottom without a sandstorm

[Xgame2k]

Thank you. This is what i was hoping for. So it will be fine to add new sand every couple of months even when it gets passed the recommended 4-6 inch maximum mark? I have a 450 gallon display tank with 120 gallon sump and was thinking of putting a deep sand bed in both (dead sand and a couple cups of live).

Can anyone answer this?

[Playa-1]

I would suggest you do lots of research before taking action. There are pros and cons to a DSB that you need to be aware of. In a tank of that size you will have lots to loose if something goes wrong. I'm not saying a DSB is a bad Idea but I'm just encouraging you to be well informed up front.

[Xgame2k]

that is why i posted this. There might be a couple pieces of live rock in the tank but most in the sump and will have 2 small sharks in it so flow will be as high as i can get it.

[ChadTheSpike]

+1 to Playa-1 on knowing for sure what you are getting into.

I personally would do it with a large tank (like your 450 gal), although I would increase the sand depth in the DT to never go <8 inches. Although I cant say that I have a technical reason for this, it would just make me feel better :) You never know when a large tang or something will knock a powerhead down to blow directly into your sand bed or something like that. In all of my smaller DTs I have gone with a really shallow sand bed (barely covering the glass) because it is easy for me to keep it clean, and I dont have to worry about me or my equipment seriously disturbuing the DSB (Im not worried about the livestock doing it).

You would be fine adding sand every few months as it dissolves, just dont go crazy with it and bury a live sand bed with 3 inches of new sand, all the little critters are down there and need some love too!

BTW, I like the idea of dumping sand down PVC pipes to prevent the sandstorm.

[ChadTheSpike]

that is why i posted this. There might be a couple pieces of live rock in the tank but most in the sump and will have 2 small sharks in it so flow will be as high as i can get it.

Its funny you mention the sharks, I was going to use an example of a shark tank having a very deep DSB (>12 inches) with high flow in the tank. If you have seen on of these setups in the past the sand is absolutely pristine and usually very deep. It is an excellent example of a live sandbed in action.

[Xgame2k]

So i should be fine if i use 4 inches of sugar sized aragonite sand to start? What would I need to do once it gets over 8 inches?

Thanx.

[jenglish]

Here are my thoughts on DSBs (I am a huge believer and have used them on all of my tanks for about the last 8 years, my longest running sandbed was about 5 years).
Stuff that goes in it: I dont add anything to my tanks that depletes the sandbed of microfauna (like sand-sifting stars or gobies). I think they eat too many of the beneficial pods and worms and such that make DSBs useful, crabs are ok in the DT but not a fuge. If your tank is large enough (I would say >2 square feet of accessible sand surface) a cucumber is beneficial.
Flow: higher than most think, at least 10x turnover, in a fuge usually flow is not high enough to maintain a DSB unless specific action is taken to increase it. Flow should be high enough that stuff doesnt easily settle. A healthy sandbed should 'look' clean, and flow is a large part of this.
Need to replace: Its not necessary, a healthy DSB processes waste, it doesnt 'fill up', although the sand does have a half-life as it dissolves into the water providing buffering and trace elements to the water chemistry. As such, the sand itself needs to be periodically added to, I add enough to make the depth always be greater than 6-7 inches. I do this by filling quart sized ziplocks with washed sand, then putting the entire bag into my tank and cutting it open, it minimizes the mess of doing so. I add some sand every few months and never more than about 1/4 at a time stirred into the top little bit of the existing bed.


Sand beds are made of calcium carbonate and will bind PO4 just like live rock. Good filtration and flow should prevent this but if you get a whole sand bed loaded with PO4, then it will need replaced. A sand bed can process nitrogen, but not phosphate. I recommend frequent siphoning to help prevent detritus from building up.

[Xgame2k]

And how would one know when to replace the entire bed?

[jenglish]

And how would one know when to replace the entire bed?

Algae problems generally.

[Xgame2k]

Is that it, other than the death of my fish?

[jenglish]

A dsb full of PO4 is not going to kill your fish, just feed unsightly algae

[Xgame2k]

So you only need to replace it if you cant stand the algae?

If that is it, i have nothing to worry about.

And i have also heard people use this: PO4-Minus - Phosphate Reducer

[Xgame2k]

..?

[uncleof6]

I don't know much.....well, anything....about DSB's, but I stumbled across this thread on RC while doing research one day. It's how to do a remote DSB in a bucket, and it sounds like it's worth a try; in fact, I just put some bulkheads in my 5 gallon bucket, and I'm going to hook it up when I get my sump in place. It's an interesting read, anyhow, hope you find it helpful!
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=595109&pp=25


It needs to be noted that a bucket DSB is a completely different animal (pun intended) than an in tank DSB. The bucket DSB is strictly a bacteria based "filter", solely for the purpose of processing ammonia > nitrite > nitrate ~ free nitrogen gas. The in tank DSB is an animal based system. As well as providing the basic bacterial processes above, it provides a more comprehensive processing of organic solids, using them as food sources to fuel a highly bio diverse population within the sandbed as well as scavangers on the sandbed surface. I am not picking on you at all, because you stated clearly that your knowledge of sand beds is limited. The two methodologies need to be kept seperate.

Jim

[uncleof6]

So you only need to replace it if you cant stand the algae?

If that is it, i have nothing to worry about.

And i have also heard people use this: PO4-Minus - Phosphate Reducer

Algae growth on the surface of a sand bed, can be due to a couple of things. The most common is inadequate water movement over the surface of the sand bed. And is not related to a problem with the sand bed itself. Generally this would be a Diatom bloom. A well set up, properly seeded, and matured sand bed will have a surface that is clean and "white." The band of algal growth visible on the glass surface in the area of the sand bed, is only on the glass surface, not throughout the sand bed, and is caused by ambient light around the tank.

Most if not all problems, purportedly inherent, with DSB's, are not problems inherent with DSB's, but rather inherent with a lack of understanding and knowledge concerning the how and why of DSB's and/or plenum type systems.

Though the setup of a DSB is simple and straightforward, and relatively inexpensive, the seeding and maturing of it (the how of it) is a bit more involved, than adding a couple cups of "live sand" (seeding). The maturing of it requires encouraging population growth with feeding, and requires patience because the sand bed needs to be matured prior to adding predators (including some species of CUC members).

Long term maintenance of a DSB is rather straightforward too, and involves a knowledge of "why:" Animal activity in the sand bed, population fluctuations, and lower pH values-- in the lower levels of the sand bed.

Depth of sand bed 4" - 6." Maintained at that depth, adding sand IF the depth decreases due to the lower pH values in the lower levels of the sand bed. (The small grain size, .2mm - .050mm, will dissolve more readily)

A decrease in effectiveness of the sand bed is usually due to a decrease in population (population fluctuation.) Add more critters. The diversity in a well fed sand bed can easily exceed 200 species. Far greater than the diversity of life it is intended to maintain in the tank. (corals, fish, etc.) Another consideration with this population level, is it greatly increases the BOD (Biological Oxygen Demand) of the system, and higher flow rates, (aeration) of the water is necessary.

The activity of the animals in this highly diverse and populated sand bed, will greatly reduce-- or eliminate, the build up of toxic gas pockets, and prevent "solidification" of the substrate sometimes referred to as inherent with sand beds. (This latter condition is now more associated with bacterial secretions, rather than the substrate dissolving)

Such a sand bed can process the wastes from feeding the tank to the maximum capactiy of the sand bed, without an increase in NO3 or PO4, and is self maintaining except as noted above.

Regards,

Jim

[Xgame2k]

Can that be put into a simple "to do" form?

Thanx,
Chris

[ChadTheSpike]

:D Jim is far more eloquent than I am and much better at explaining things;)

But Ill take a stab at your to do list

Setup (assuming a new system): Add all the rinsed sand to the tank to the desired depth, like I said my preference is >8 inches in DT and >6 in a fuge, the reason is is my preference only and I have had success with it. Add some seeding LS and LR, my preference here is from a few different sources going for maximum diversity.
Let the setup mature for AT LEAST 6 months prior to adding anything but turbo snails to the tank. I do 'feed' the tank during this timeframe with a variety of things including mysis, dry foods, phytoplankton and whatever I have around. I have also cultured rotifers for a startup, but Im not sure if it helped, mostly it made me happy to do it. (and I was testing my rotifer culture method without something to feed them to, so I added them to my tank)
I also use this period of time to start macro-algae growth (which is my way of winning the phosphate battle).
After the 6 month fallow period, I move forward with my setup and add other things to the tank.
Maintenance, periodically add a little bit of sand as it dissolves. I do this a few times a year and only add a qt. bag full at a time. I have a mark in a couple of places on my glass so I can monitor this.

[jenglish]

The points Jim raises above are probably the dominant thinking on DSBs that largely trace themselves back to Dr. Ron Shimek. Although I have nothing agains Dr. Shimek I believe his methods are flawed and that maintaining a bed as is described is the reason DSBs crash. We know hypoxic areas house the functional anaerobes that can process NO3 to N2 which can then leave the aquarium as a gas. PO4 has no known means of escape that I have known and will simply bind to the calcium carbonate until all sand has reached capacity. Biodiversity is important to break down things but they are not magical and cannot "process" materials into nothingness. Regular deep siphoning removes organic matter (both in the form of detritus and the sand bed critters themselves) as well as helps to prevent the anoxic conditions in which true anaerobes will produce hydrogen sulfide. These cleanings should be in sections though so as not to remove too much of the population of beneficial organisms in the sand bed.

[ChadTheSpike]

I love it when someone says something that makes me do research to respond :) Not disagreeing with you, Jeremy, but I dont understand a few things about your argument. Phosphate does not preferentially bind to the calcium crystal structure, it is an equalibrium equation that competes with other ions in the water (carbonates, sulfates etc.), however, water with higher phosphates will result in a higher percentage of bound phosphates in the calcium structures. But if available calcium to build the crystal exists, the phosphates will become bound in the structure and be rendered useless unless the crystal dissolves. If the crystal growth is static, the sites the phosphates bind to are temporary, and soluble ions can pull the phosphates from the crystal structure and its place will be taken by another ion. Phosphate is not processed into nothingness, but transferred back and forth between organic and inorganic forms. Some of these become organic matter used by organisms and algae, others become bound on the surface of LR and LS, and others are soluble in the water in organic and inorganic forms. You are absolutely right that it builds up in our systems unless we do something about it. Nutrient removal in its many forms is the solution here by siphoning deeply into the sandbed to remove organics that are living and not, regularly pruning algae or fast-growing corals, using a protein skimmer, using chemical means of binding like GFO, etc.
The longest DSB I have maintained was about 5 years, and although I dont consider that to be long-term, it is longer than many who have reported system crashes. I have not seen an algae bloom in any of my tanks with DSBs beyond that seen on initial setup, have never had measureable phosphates and I have not had a crash.
If my thinking is flawed, please let me know, I really do enjoy a different point of view on things, it makes us both smarter.

[Xgame2k]

So i would have to wait 6 months to put fish in it?

And how do the beds crash? and would that kill the fish?

I am getting sharks that are about 2 grand each and am not going to risk anything.

[ChadTheSpike]

Thats how I do it, my current setup is about a year old and it drove my girlfriend crazy that I waited as long as I did. :) I feel pretty strongly though that it significantly helps in the long term and is worth the wait.

[Xgame2k]

Cant you use bio-spira and/or live sand and rock though?

[ChadTheSpike]

yes, you will want a few different sources to seed your sand bed. The key is a thriving population before anything disrupts it.

[Xgame2k]

would i have to do water changes while i wait?

[ChadTheSpike]

Yes, and run a skimmer, I personally do 5% weekly.

[ziyaadb]

Chad you talking about in tank DSB's what about in Sump DSB's can you please give me your take on that?

[jenglish]

PO4 can be removed from calcium through osmosis, and if the bed is properly maintianed and the water column not loaded with PO4 to begin with this is not the inevitable end. A DSB is thoug potentially a huge warehouse for phosphate. I think many of the stories of Old Tank Syndrome came from folks who ran DSB for years. THese DSB were processing nitrogen out of the system through off gassing but merely binding PO4 for years and years. The DSB was removing it from the water column for the most part, but only storing it. If you had one of these filled DSBs you could clean it through GFO or other means to strip the PO4 from it, it would simply be expensive and time consuming.

Look at all the threads of folks cooking rock laden with PO4. This rock is made from essentially the same building blocks, with the disadvantage that sand is on the bottom of the tank where the poo settles. I am far from saying nutrient saturation is a foregone conclusion with a DSB but I think people should not think PO4 is being processed at times when it is merely being stored, be it sand, algae, microfauna, etc.

[Xgame2k]

I really doubt i will have to wait 6 months! how would i get around that?

[Xgame2k]

People are really making it way more complicated than it needs to be. All i want to know are the procedures of setting one up, maintenance and what to do and how to know, when i would need to change out or treat the bed when its full. jeeeeeeez

[ziyaadb]

If only it was that easy

[Xgame2k]

Everyone starts talking scientific nonsence that doesn't answer a simple question. ha

[ziyaadb]

LOL Thats very true BUT its not that simple. Remember u want to keep a piece of the Ocean in your Home so it does get very complicated over the long time

[Xgame2k]

I agree to disagree.

[Xgame2k]

People are really making it way more complicated than it needs to be. All i want to know are the procedures of setting one up, maintenance and what to do and how to know, when i would need to change out or treat the bed when its full. jeeeeeeez

Can anyone help me out with this please?

[jenglish]

People are really making it way more complicated than it needs to be. All i want to know are the procedures of setting one up, maintenance and what to do and how to know, when i would need to change out or treat the bed when its full. jeeeeeeez

The issue is folks disagree on how to maintain them. Some say never disturb them, others say siphon it regularly. SOme folks say 6-8 inches, others say no more than 6 inches, others say it just depends on what the substrate is.

If you ask me, around 6 inches is plenty for oolitic aragonite, more may be needed for larger substrates, siphon clean in sections, and if you get algae you can't seem to get rid of, consider that your sand may be full of PO4. Others may disagree. :hmm5:

[Xgame2k]

Thanx. If people would post what they do, instead of what others do, would be greatly appreciated because it is not certain.

[jenglish]

If you do not have a good source for tank sand you may wish to order a "detritovore kit" like from Inland Aquatics. THis is not a clean up crew like most systems run but bristleworms, pods, mysid shrimp, micro brittlestars etc. If you know folks with established tanks, a few cups of sand may contain all the start you need. These critters will help your sand bed and are recommended by every different DSB methodology I have ever seen :D

[ChadTheSpike]

+1 on what jeremy said (both posts), in the end he may be right, who knows ;) Ill take my chances in the meantime :) Its one the the long-standing debates in the hobby.

Xgame2K: I maintain a 6" layer of oolitic sand in my refugium. IMO six months is worth it, I wouldnt personally want to get around it, cool things show up in my tanks in that period of time :)

ziyaabd: To me there really isnt a difference between my fuge and my DT setup-wise. I dont have a DSB in my DT is because its a small tank and 6" takes up a lot of room, if I had a larger (or deeper) tank I would have one in my DT as well. My take on it is that DSBs need more flow than they are usually given in a fuge, the flow should be high enough that stuff doesnt easily settle on it, just the same as in the DT.

[uncleof6]

The points Jim raises above are probably the dominant thinking on DSBs that largely trace themselves back to Dr. Ron Shimek. Although I have nothing agains Dr. Shimek I believe his methods are flawed and that maintaining a bed as is described is the reason DSBs crash. We know hypoxic areas house the functional anaerobes that can process NO3 to N2 which can then leave the aquarium as a gas. PO4 has no known means of escape that I have known and will simply bind to the calcium carbonate until all sand has reached capacity. Biodiversity is important to break down things but they are not magical and cannot "process" materials into nothingness. Regular deep siphoning removes organic matter (both in the form of detritus and the sand bed critters themselves) as well as helps to prevent the anoxic conditions in which true anaerobes will produce hydrogen sulfide. These cleanings should be in sections though so as not to remove too much of the population of beneficial organisms in the sand bed.


There is a debate raging over the viability of living sand beds over the long term, relating to the build up of toxic chemicals in the lower levels of the sand bed. I find this to be unfounded, for the reason that a bed that is, set up properly, and running properly-- as described above, makes the possibility of the bed fouling virtually impossible.

I have not spent my time following the work of Dr. Shimek, however, both of us, from what I do know, came up in the "Dark Ages" of small, closed system marine aquaria. I have read so much over the years, that I cannot say with any certainty, where any particular piece of information came from, nor do I claim any originality of thought. Only that it is in my footlocker in a manila folder labled 'Living Sand Beds,' usually in the form of notes, and the earliest information I have is by Dr. Lee Chin Eng, dated 1961.(also earliest reference to live rock that I have.) Just for giggles: I also have information on Hiryama's inequality.

Jim

[Xgame2k]

ChadTheSpike: You have been the most help, telling me what to do. I just need a few more like you to determine my final decision.

[ChadTheSpike]

:) good luck, I recommend further research. One of my mantra's is "trust, but verify" there is a lot of good information out there, just have to dig to find it.

[uncleof6]

I agree to disagree.

No, this is a very wrong approach. Agreeing to disagree means you are unwilling to learn, or discount the statements, even if the information given is inaccurate. Research the subject and draw your own conclusions based on what is not opinion. Have this little tit a tat going on in another thread. On a very similar topic. Plenums vs Berlin, for a research paper, only the poster wants sources of informtion, not opinions and arguments.

On this topic, there is going to be debate no matter what the original question was. So far, all you are getting is opinion. The trouble with step by steps, no matter who types what, some one is going to say no, do it this way. Best bet is pick a loser (snickers) and go pm. NO I am not volunteering, and this will take away from the RC community as a whole.

Sand beds are a very complex topic and science is needed to understand the complexities, and to determine what is founded and what is unfounded.

Jim

[Xgame2k]

Let me make this clear. I dont need any information on how these work. Just what is needed to be done.

Not to be rude, just trying to make myself clear and it seems like i am just repeating myself.

[elegance coral]

Lets say I get a Deep Sand Bed. Do I need to do anything to it in the long run? I hear many things so im not sure. I have heard that you need to replace it when it gets full and so on, not to vacuum it, add starfish, crabs,,,,and so on.... What is true?

Let me make this clear. I dont need any information on how these work. Just what is needed to be done.

Not to be rude, just trying to make myself clear and it seems like i am just repeating myself.

This is simple. Forget what you've been told. It doesn't work that way. If you get a DSB, pick up a gravel vac at the same time. Vacuum the sand bed when you do water changes and it will stay clean and white. That's it. No need to worry about a bunch of critters or replacing the sand because it's filthy and killing your pets. Keep it clean and it will last for many many many many many many years.

[Xgame2k]

If this is true, you have saved me from these evil scientists.

[elegance coral]

If this is true, you have saved me from these evil scientists.

:lol: Trust me. It's true. You can relax.:lol:

[Xgame2k]

I have a gravel vac already. How deep do you clean? And how often? Im not sure how often I will need to do water changes because i will be getting a aquaripure (vodka dosing) and will have dsb's and live rock in display and sump. Also will it still function the same (denitrification)?

[elegance coral]

I have a gravel vac allready. How deep do you clean?

Clean all of it. Detritus is the enemy.

And how often?

It depends on your system. Detritus accumulates at different rates in different systems. Once it's up and running, you will be able to tell how often you need to vacuum it to keep it clean.

Im not sure how often i will need to do water changes because i will be getting a aquaripure (vodka dosing) and will have dsb's and live rock in display and sump.

We change water for many reasons. Nothing replaces water changes. Not vodka dosing, skimming, DSB's, Macro algae, live rock, nothing. No mater how you run your system, you still need to change water, and pretty regularly. Don't fall for the hype about this technique or piece of equipment replaces water changes. It doesn't work that way.

[uncleof6]

Let me make this clear. I dont need any information on how these work. Just what is needed to be done.

Not to be rude, just trying to make myself clear and it seems like i am just repeating myself.

Don' t get me wrong, I am agreeing with you-- you should not have to repeat yourself. However, my involvement in the thread was because reading through the various posts prior to mine, I saw you were getting inaccurate information, anecdotal and opinionated. Subsequent posts and your questions, indicate that a rudimentary understanding of "how these things work," would allow you to separate the wheat from the chaff. It is obvious, that your concern is strictly wanting a "step by step" recipe, unfortunately with out an understanding of the "why," questions like: "I really doubt i will have to wait 6 months! how would i get around that?" come up, because you do not accept the step by step you were given.

I don't think you are being rude, and at your request I will add nothing more to the thread, to further complicate it, unless some one else attributes my methods to Dr. Shimek, when in fact they are based on work done by Dr. Jean Jaubert. ;) :beer:

Regards,

Jim

[elegance coral]

Also will it still function the same (denitrification)?

No. It will not work the same. The idea of not disturbing a sand bed and allowing critters to "keep it clean":lol:, results in an accumulation of detritus (rotting, decomposing, organic matter). Rotting, decomposing, organic matter releases nitrate into the environment. It does not remove it. If you remove the detritus with a gravel vac, the nitrogenous waste and phosphate it contains can not be released into your system. Denitrification still takes place in a clean sand bed. There is just much less nitrate to be processed in the first place. So........ If anything, a clean sand bed works better than the other version.

[Xgame2k]

So i would be wasting money if i got a aqaripure?!

[jenglish]

So i would be wasting money if i got a aqaripure?!

I know you are wanting a yes or no answer but it really depends on your bioload. I would probably start out w/o one and if you find nitrates are a problem that you can't solve, then add it. It sounds like you will have a large amount of denitirfication from a sizeable DSB anyway.

[uncleof6]

And you are still getting completely uninformed information-- that even contradicts what is occurring in the ocean. Good grief. I suggest that you will be better off doing a bucket DSB, based solely on bacterial activity, and forget trying to do a Bio-diverse sand bed. ON my above promise, I will not even bother addressing the bad info just given (not jenglish)

J

[elegance coral]

And you are still getting completely uninformed information-- that even contradicts what is occurring in the ocean. Good grief. I suggest that you will be better off doing a bucket DSB, based solely on bacterial activity, and forget trying to do a Bio-diverse sand bed. ON my above promise, I will not even bother addressing the bad info just given (not jenglish)

J

Ow, come on.:lol: Xgame2K got the answers they were looking for. We should be able to play evil scientist (I prefer mad scientist myself though:fun4:) If there is something about my post that you feel is untrue, post your evidence. Explain how the information given was "uninformed" or "bad info". It wouldn't be right to let a newcomer to the hobby believe bad info.

[uncleof6]

Answer given in my original post. Do the research. I may be a mad scientist indeed, but I keep my word. :beer:

J

[Playa-1]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=84&pictureid=2317

[Xgame2k]

Clean all of it. Detritus is the enemy.

So when you say all of it, do you mean every part of the sand bed including depth to the bottom of the tank? Is it done in sections or all at once?

I want to get everything as clear as possible.

[cloak]

I'm just curious, does anybody that has posted on this thread have any experince/sucess with a DSB in their DT for more than five years? If so, I'd really like to see some pictures...
Up to date pictures none the less...

[elegance coral]

So when you say all of it, do you mean every part of the sand bed including depth to the bottom of the tank?

Yes. All of it. There are several myths claiming that you can't disturb a sand bed, especially the bottom layers, because it will burst into flames.:lol: Rest assured these are myths, legends, or folk lour. This line of thinking may have been cutting edge science back in 1961, but today, we should know better.

Is it done in sections or all at once?

With a sand bed the size you are talking about, it would be hard to vacuum the whole thing all at once. Unless you did a very large water change. You will probably need to do one section at a time. Vacuum one section until you have removed the amount of water you want to change, then do a different section at the next water change.

I want to get everything as clear as possible.

It's hard to make things perfectly clear without breaking out a little "evil scientist" on the subject. The biological processes that take place in a marine system can get a little complicated. This has led to alot of confusion in the hobby about what's really going on in a DSB.

[elegance coral]

I'm just curious, does anybody that has posted on this thread have any experince/sucess with a DSB in their DT for more than five years? If so, I'd really like to see some pictures...
Up to date pictures none the less...

This pic is of a sand bed that's somewhere around 5 years old. I didn't write down the date when I put it in the tank.;) It was taken several months ago, and has been moved to a different system.
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/5670/sn852522editedsy5.jpg

[elegance coral]

This is a pic of my oldest sand bed. Somewhere around 20 years. Pic was taken about a year ago. I don't know if you would call it a "display tank" though. I've had this sand bed in several different systems over the years. I've added a little sand but I've never intentionally removed any.
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/7838/sn850142pf2.jpg

[ziyaadb]

So elegance to make sure i understand correctly u vacuum the entire dsb(go down with the gravel vac as far as you can) and not just the top of the dsb?

[elegance coral]

So elegance to make sure i understand correctly u vacuum the entire dsb(go down with the gravel vac as far as you can) and not just the top of the dsb?

Correct. There is no magic force field that holds problem causing nutrients like phosphate in the lower sections of a DSB. Anywhere that organic matter rots, there will be a release of nutrients like phosphate. The simple solution to the problem is to remove the organic matter before it rots. No matter where it is.

[ziyaadb]

Now this is great news to prevent the OLD tank syndrome. I just have a few more questions. I have always been told and read that one should never disturb a DSB and this will cause it to not work and the denitrification bacteria will die. is this all a load of hogwash? also what is your belief on the time it takes for the dsb to become active in that it is denitrifiying the water i have been told up to 4 months

[jenglish]

There was a small experiment they ran in RK, I can't seem to find it, but they found some denitrifictation in SSB as well as DSB. The bacteria that perform denitrification are functional anearobes that work in a hypoxic enviroment so it would make sense if they were not killed by the presence of oxygen like a true anaerobe would be. I wouldn't know the exact timeline for denitrifying bacteria to come about but I would think that 4 months seems like a long time to me.

[ziyaadb]

Shot man
The bacteria that perform denitrification are functional anearobes that work in a hypoxic enviroment so it would make sense if they were not killed by the presence of oxygen like a true anaerobe would be.

Can you please explain the bold for me?

[Xgame2k]

This is a pic of my oldest sand bed. Somewhere around 20 years. Pic was taken about a year ago. I don't know if you would call it a "display tank" though. I've had this sand bed in several different systems over the years. I've added a little sand but I've never intentionally removed any.
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/7838/sn850142pf2.jpg

I want my display tank to look similar to this. What grass's do you have in it? And thanks for pointing this thread in the right direction.

[cloak]

Maybe it's an optical illusion, but the sandbeds in those pictures don't look very deep to me. I'm guessing the bottom of the tank is at the base of the boards on the one picture?

Thank you for sharing, but that's not exactly what I was looking for.

[Xgame2k]

...

[elegance coral]

Now this is great news to prevent the OLD tank syndrome.
You would think that after all the years of needless death, brought on by old tank syndrome, and countless sums of money spent, we would realize that there is something fundamentally flawed with the way we are doing things. Unfortunately, some people will never get it. OTS is preventable. All we need to do is show the animals we keep in a reef tank the same courtesy we would show to any pet we may keep. That is, keep the area they live in clean. Simple as that.

I just have a few more questions. I have always been told and read that one should never disturb a DSB and this will cause it to not work and the denitrification bacteria will die. is this all a load of hogwash?

Yes. It's all hogwash.;) This is one of the myths I spoke of earlier. As with all good myths, there is an element of truth. There is a group of anaerobes that will die if exposed to oxygen. They are called "obligate anaerobes". Just think about this for a moment and use a little common sense. What are the odds of a microbe, that dies if exposed to oxygen, making it to the bottom of your aquarium? It's kinda hard to get there without contacting oxygen allong the way. Thankfully, there are two other groups of anaerobes that can tolerate exposure to oxygen. They are called "aerotolerant and facultative anaerobes." The fact is that we don't need obligate anaerobes. We can clean our sand beds and it will still be a functional denitrifying filter. You can't sterilize a sand bed with a gravel vac.
A little link just to show that I'm not pulling this stuff out of thin air.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_organism

also what is your belief on the time it takes for the dsb to become active in that it is denitrifiying the water i have been told up to 4 months

It could take that long or longer under the right conditions. There are many variables that can effect how long this will take. It will be different for different systems.

[elegance coral]

I want my display tank to look similar to this. What grass's do you have in it? And thanks for pointing this thread in the right direction.

That is Caulerpa prolifera.

You're very welcome. I did have to go a little "evil scientist" in my last post, but I was asked a direct question. What was I to do?:confused:

[elegance coral]

Maybe it's an optical illusion, but the sandbeds in those pictures don't look very deep to me. I'm guessing the bottom of the tank is at the base of the boards on the one picture?

Thank you for sharing, but that's not exactly what I was looking for.

Sorry it wasn't what you were looking for. Here's a pic that may help show the depth of at least on of the sand beds. The tank on bottom is sitting on a 2x4, so it is 3.5 inches off the ground. The base board is 6 inches tall and the front of the cabinet, in front of the sand bed, is 2.5 inches above the base board. The sand is about even with the top of the 2.5 inch board. That puts the sand bed right at 5+/- inches deep.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/583/sn850076ce5.jpg

[jenglish]

typically I think 5-6 inches is the point of diminishing marginal return for most DSBs. Deeper does not add much to the system. The ultra deep beds IMO are driven by the idea of obligate anaerobes and are much more likely IMO to develop anoxic areas and have hydrogen sulfide. I typically have ran DSBs in the 5-6 inch range.

[elegance coral]

I agree. I don't even see a reason to keep them as deep as 5 inches if denitrification is the only purpose. The only reason I keep them that deep is for the sand dwelling anemones. As you pointed out earlier, denitrification takes place in much shallower sand beds.

[cloak]

Sorry it wasn't what you were looking for. Here's a pic that may help show the depth of at least on of the sand beds. The tank on bottom is sitting on a 2x4, so it is 3.5 inches off the ground. The base board is 6 inches tall and the front of the cabinet, in front of the sand bed, is 2.5 inches above the base board. The sand is about even with the top of the 2.5 inch board. That puts the sand bed right at 5+/- inches deep.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/583/sn850076ce5.jpg

You said that you've had this sandbed in several different systems over the years. I'm guessing you just lifted the tank up with all the sand in it and plumbed it into different tanks?

[elegance coral]

You said that you've had this sandbed in several different systems over the years. I'm guessing you just lifted the tank up with all the sand in it and plumbed it into different tanks?

I have changed the display that's hooked to this sand while it was in the same container, but that's not always the way I've done it. The tank it's in now was my first marine tank. The sand was in it for....... I don't know, maybe the first 5 to 8 years. Then I went BB in the display and moved the sand to another 55 I was using as a sump/fuge. From there it's been moved to several different containers. Now it's back in the original tank, but it's being used as a sump, not a display.

What is the significance of how it was moved from one system to another?

[cloak]

Well to me, the sandbed is only as old as the last time you moved it. A DSB in a sump or refuge seems like an easy fix if something goes wrong. Almost as if the aquarist is afraid of it. No faith maybe, I don't know. Seems like a lot of people seem to know how a DSB functions, but nobody seems to practice what they preach. Scared to put it in the DT for whatever reason. Not everybody, don't get me wrong, but it just seems like the majority. Like I said though, I was looking for deep sand beds that were in display tanks that were five years or older.

Thanks.

[jean19]

it's difficult to find DSB in dt that's more than 2/3 years , i'm searching ....
because i'm starting one
but i'm patient , i've got time , i'm not planning any fish until a year !

[elegance coral]

Well to me, the sandbed is only as old as the last time you moved it.
I'm not sure that I fallow your logic here. With this line of thinking, I guess you could say that it's a new sand bed every time I clean it with a gravel vac??????? I didn't kill the sand when it was moved. The sand remains fairly clean, so there's no need to kill it or rinse it when it's moved. It's the same sand, critters, and bacteria after the move.


A DSB in a sump or refuge seems like an easy fix if something goes wrong. Almost as if the aquarist is afraid of it. No faith maybe, I don't know. Seems like a lot of people seem to know how a DSB functions but nobody seems to practice what they preach. Scared to put it in the DT for whatever reason. Like I said though, I was looking for deep sand beds that were in display tanks that were five years or older.
Thanks.

I'm not afraid of my sand bed, and I "practice what I preach". The fact is that it's hard to keep sand clean when there are alot of rocks piled on top of it. For this reason, in some systems, I keep the sand in a different tank. I'm not sure how the name we give the tank relates to the subject. If we call it a display, fuge, sump, what difference does it make? I could do like the OP is doing, by placing LR in the sump and just a few in the display with the sand. That would be a similar system to the one I posted in the pic, only the contents of the tanks would be switched. In my system the sump has the sand and the display has the rocks. In the OP's system the sump would have the rocks and the display would have the sand. It's all the same body of water, so I don't see the relevance of where the sand is in the system.

[elegance coral]

it's difficult to find DSB in dt that's more than 2/3 years , i'm searching ....
because i'm starting one
but i'm patient , i've got time , i'm not planning any fish until a year !

You are correct. You will have a hard time finding old DSB's. This is because we are told to throw it on the bottom of the tank, allow rotting organic matter and tons of critters to build up in it, then replace it when it starts killing our pets. The sand isn't the problem. It's the way we maintain it. If they are left undisturbed, they become compost piles, or septic tanks.

[jean19]

one of the probleme i've notice his the size of the sand and the water turn over , as for disturbing the sand , i think a good cleaning crew can manage it .
i'll see in a few years , i've reed about DSB all over the net and it seem thats a DSB should be the answer for all kind of trouble or the reason .but a lot of people don't bother to do it right , going to fast , expecting to much .
i'm planning a 120cm x 60cm 60cm , sand bed 12/15cm , softies and LPS and 4/6 small fishes , no skimmer . 20/30kg of live rocks that will not rest in the sand .

[jenglish]

Well to me, the sandbed is only as old as the last time you moved it. A DSB in a sump or refuge seems like an easy fix if something goes wrong. Almost as if the aquarist is afraid of it. No faith maybe, I don't know. Seems like a lot of people seem to know how a DSB functions, but nobody seems to practice what they preach. Scared to put it in the DT for whatever reason. Not everybody, don't get me wrong, but it just seems like the majority. Like I said though, I was looking for deep sand beds that were in display tanks that were five years or older.

Thanks.

If simply moving a DSB was resetting it's age, everytime I deep clean it there would be a "new" DSB since all the sand gets stirred and oxygenated. I don't believe moving it from one tank to another upsets it anymore than a thorough cleaning.

[jenglish]

I will admit, I have seen an undisturbed DSB that has been running since 1995 though the last time I saw it personally was 07. That really gets into a whole different paradigm though.

[lougotzz]

Let me make this clear. I dont need any information on how these work. Just what is needed to be done.

Not to be rude, just trying to make myself clear and it seems like i am just repeating myself.

So when you have a problem, instead of knowing what is going on, and what to do, we can all hear you say:

"My tank is crashing, what do I do?!?!?!?''

Than when someone trys to explain, youll say:

"I just need to know what to do, Jeez."

Not trying to be a ****, but I started out almost a year ago like you, just wanting to know how to set it up, but than I started reading. When something happened I already knew what to do from all the reading I had done and didnt have to ask.

[Xgame2k]

....

[Xgame2k]

So when you have a problem, instead of knowing what is going on, and what to do, we can all hear you say:

"My tank is crashing, what do I do?!?!?!?''

Than when someone trys to explain, youll say:

"I just need to know what to do, Jeez."

Not trying to be a ****, but I started out almost a year ago like you, just wanting to know how to set it up, but than I started reading. When something happened I already knew what to do from all the reading I had done and didnt have to ask.

Well, I already have my answers....the end.

[elegance coral]

, as for disturbing the sand , i think a good cleaning crew can manage it .
.


This is another one of those myths. A clean up crew can not keep a sand bed clean. It will never happen. Food supplies govern populations. This is such a basic fact of nature that even those that support the common wisdom of how to care for sand beds are forced to admit it. There is no way to get around this fact. If you have an abundance of critters living in your sand, you can rest assured that you have an even larger abundance of rotting organic matter that they feed on. If you artificially elevate the population of detritivores in an attempt to clean a dirty sand bed all you will be doing is adding to the rotting organic matter of the sand. The rotting organic matter can only support a given number of detritivores. If you elevate the population above that number, they will simply die, and become rotting organic matter themselves.