treating ich

[bpseoe]

at the moment im only doing a 'FOWLR'. i have been dealing with a moderate case of ich and need a little advise.
125 gallon temp. set at 84
Day 1: a 20% WC and dosed with kortons rid-ich
Day 2: another 20% WC and dosed again with rid-ich
Day 3 (today): another 20% and again i dosed with rid-ich
Results: After losing a yellow tang and a couple damsels all other fish seem to be doing ok. all are eating well and are active but im still noticing a little scratching of the rocks.
Tomorrow: Should I do another WC then dose again or should i just do a WC and keep the temp at 84 for a couple more days?
instructions state to dose for 3 days. directions state to those for three days. any advise is greatly appreciated.

[Veosk]

What is the reason for the ich? your temp is high

[Sisterlimonpot]

What is the reason for the ich? your temp is high
It's a little on the high side but not catastrophic.

bpseoe,
As I'm not familiar with the product. Does the instruction say anything about re-dosing?

[bpseoe]

I dont know what caused ich. im guessing it was brought in by another tank mate. my temp. is set that high only because it speeds up the ich cycle and ich cant reproduce at high temps.
instructions state to dose for three days. (kordons rid-ich)
im asking if i should re-dose only because im still seeing some scratching against the rocks or should i just do another water change and let the heat take care of the rest?

[greenbean36191]

The temperature is not particularly high, but it will also have almost no effect on the ich. It will not significantly speed up the life cycle, prevent if from reproducing, or make your fish more susceptible to it unless you made the temp really jump up there quickly.

Stop wasting your time and money with the rid-ich. It doesn't work. There has been a lot of testing of cures for ich. Only three methods have be proven to work. They are copper, hyposalinity, and tank transfer. Using the search feature will get you full instructions for each method.

[patsfan1130]

Agreed - The rid ich is worthless. People dont realize that part of the parasites natural cycle is to fall off of the host in a few days. This leads the person to believe that these products work when in fact, they are useless.

[jenglish]

Not only is it reef safe, but ich safe as well.:lol:

If you don'd have any inverts in there I don't see a reason why you can't just do hyposalinty in the whole DT

[wooden_reefer]

What is the reason for the ich?

The ich organisms exist in your system.

[likemike99]

so ICH is a parasite that can be present in your aquarium all the time. transferring ant treating with copper only kills the ich ON THE FISH. part of the life cycle is to fall off the fish but when the sand it can lay dormant for over 6 month. so treated fish can still get ICH. the reason they get ICH is because they are stressed. I have had more fish die while transferring and treating than with just doing nothing but trying to make the fish less stressed.

[bertoni]

I don't know of any data to show that the ich parasites can lie dormant on the sand. If the tank goes fish-free for 8 weeks or more, the ich should all be gone. If the fish are treated properly before being added, the ich shouldn't reappear, although ich is hard to kill.

[jenglish]

Ich is not hard to kill. It takes 8 weeks fishless (72 days is the longest published results I have heard of in a very cool tank, under 60F IIRC) while the fish go through copper, hypo or tank transfer method. There are some fish that cannot tolerate copper or do not handle hypo well so do your research

[krowleey]

so ICH is a parasite that can be present in your aquarium all the time. transferring ant treating with copper only kills the ich ON THE FISH. part of the life cycle is to fall off the fish but when the sand it can lay dormant for over 6 month. so treated fish can still get ICH. the reason they get ICH is because they are stressed. I have had more fish die while transferring and treating than with just doing nothing but trying to make the fish less stressed.


dude, do some research and educate yourself, you are so wrong it isn't even funny.

[krowleey]

Ich is not hard to kill. It takes 8 weeks fishless (72 days is the longest published results I have heard of in a very cool tank, under 60F IIRC) while the fish go through copper, hypo or tank transfer method. There are some fish that cannot tolerate copper or do not handle hypo well so do your research


i have not heard of any fish that cant tolerate hypo.

[Flipper62]

Here is a good article in Ich.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

[PRDubois]

Seems like today is the day for people to argue?

[Flipper62]

Seems like today is the day for people to argue?

Why do you say that ?

[jenglish]

i have not heard of any fish that cant tolerate hypo.

sharks, I would look into any scaleless fish just to be sure

[likemike99]

I quaranteened fish for 12 weeks and treated with copper- lost 4 fish, left the display tank with no fish- only inverts. when I put my fish back in they got the ICH within 3 days. it cleared up in the QT. I would think 12 weeks of copper (at proper concentration) would have killed all ICH in th QT. so how did they get it back? it seems only possible that it was still in the display tank. over that 12 week period nothing new was added. maybe my ICH set a new record.
I decided I was not going to quaranteen again. over the next 2 weeks I kept the display tank with the fish with feeding everyother day and covered the tank. the ICH was gone by week 3 with no treatment and no fish dieing. maybe this is an unusual case , but oddities do happen.

[chrisp074]

Just like to add that the Quinine family of drugs is also a safe and scientifically proven method to treating ich, but like copper is toxic to invertibrate life and more expensive and difficult to find. It is a bit easier on fish and useful for copper sensative fish.

[Spikewire]

dude, do some research and educate yourself, you are so wrong it isn't even funny.

Finally come to visit RC and this is in the first thread I read. Typical [profanity], know-it-all response. Rude and totally useless.

[greenbean36191]

Just like to add that the Quinine family of drugs is also a safe and scientifically proven method to treating ich
Safe? Yes. Tested against Cryptocaryon? Yes. Proven to be effective? No.

[chrisp074]

Actually there is a fair amount of reasearch on the use of quinine, of course I can't find my links at the moment but here is a starting point.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/d7551m186uh381x8/

[krowleey]

Finally come to visit RC and this is in the first thread I read. Typical <font size="1" color="#0000FF">profanity removed</font>, know-it-all response. Rude and totally useless.

it's not rude or know it all, someone tried to give false information, when the truth is only a mouse click away. if you are serious about curing ich then please search for it either here or try google. there is a billion articles and threads on how to cure it. it's work and sucks to have a fishless display, but worth it.

[krowleey]

I quaranteened fish for 12 weeks and treated with copper- lost 4 fish, left the display tank with no fish- only inverts. when I put my fish back in they got the ICH within 3 days. it cleared up in the QT. I would think 12 weeks of copper (at proper concentration) would have killed all ICH in th QT. so how did they get it back? it seems only possible that it was still in the display tank. over that 12 week period nothing new was added. maybe my ICH set a new record.
I decided I was not going to quaranteen again. over the next 2 weeks I kept the display tank with the fish with feeding everyother day and covered the tank. the ICH was gone by week 3 with no treatment and no fish dieing. maybe this is an unusual case , but oddities do happen.

sorry Mike, but i would have to guess you made an error some where in your QT time. Ich has a life cycle and it must go through it. i'm not sure what the error could be, there is too much information unknown. but if you search for cures and follow alot of the write-ups fully you will be rid of it. and i can't agree leaving fish in the tank it just went away, it doesn't do that, unless of course you're talking about 11+ months without adding a new strain to the tank, it has been documented that it can wear itself out per strain.

[krowleey]

sharks, I would look into any scaleless fish just to be sure


you are correct, i believe sharks and rays. those two species didn't come to mind. but i do believe tangs are scaleless and they are fine with it. but i also believe sharks and rays are immune from ich, i could be wrong however.

[bertoni]

Let's keep the language under control.

likemike99's story is fairly common, unfortunately. I agree that the quarantine might have been the problem: maybe the salinity wasn't low enough, or maybe he got a strain of marine ich that was more resistant to hyposalinity than most. Many cases of ich go away on their own, at least visibly. Fishes have immune systems that sometimes are effective enough.

[krowleey]

Let's keep the language under control.

likemike99's story is fairly common, unfortunately. I agree that the quarantine might have been the problem: maybe the salinity wasn't low enough, or maybe he got a strain of marine ich that was more resistant to hyposalinity than most. Many cases of ich go away on their own, at least visibly. Fishes have immune systems that sometimes are effective enough.

very true, until you add that new fish..then BAM you have a full blown case and you find yourself tearing your tank apart to catch fish, been there done that. any kind of stress can lead to a huge break out causing death. while you may a someone say there is a resistant strain of ich to hyposalinity, there is absolutely nothing to back that up i have ever found. copper however if not done correctly can cause a strain to build up a resistance, thats why you always have to take all your antibiotics ;)

[bertoni]

I think greenbean has posted about some strains of marine ich that live longer in proper hyposalinity. How much data is available, I don't know.

[jenglish]

you are correct, i believe sharks and rays. those two species didn't come to mind. but i do believe tangs are scaleless and they are fine with it. but i also believe sharks and rays are immune from ich, i could be wrong however.

As I understand it they are Highly resistant but not totally immune. They would not have it in the wild but in the confines of an aquarium could catch it. I haven't researched this a great deal as I don't keep any of these species and probably won't in the forseeable future. But that is how I recall reading it in the past. :D

[jenglish]

sorry Mike, but i would have to guess you made an error some where in your QT time. Ich has a life cycle and it must go through it. i'm not sure what the error could be, there is too much information unknown. but if you search for cures and follow alot of the write-ups fully you will be rid of it. and i can't agree leaving fish in the tank it just went away, it doesn't do that, unless of course you're talking about 11+ months without adding a new strain to the tank, it has been documented that it can wear itself out per strain.

It should be noted that while this has been observed and published (Dr. Burgess I believe) and I think Lee Birch also saw this but ws in unpublished research, I have heard some assert that the results were not repeatable when others attempted it. Even if this concept is true, we may only have 2 data points in a range. An individual cycle can be three to nearly 8 weeks... this may mean the range is 8-15 months... maybe 11 months was one of the quicker cycling strains and that is at the bottom of the range. I'm just saying that this research is not super well supported and should be interpreted with caution :D

[greenbean36191]

Actually there is a fair amount of reasearch on the use of quinine, of course I can't find my links at the moment but here is a starting point.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/d7551m186uh381x8/
Yes, there are at least half a dozen publications on the use of quinine drugs on ich that I'm aware of (a point I alluded to above). Some measured an apparent effect on the control of ich. None show that they are as effective as hyposalinity, copper, or tank transfer (all of which are 100% effective when used correctly). IIRC, none of them account for acquired immunity to ich, which is the lurking problem in claiming effectiveness of ich treatments across the board.

[KbauerCTU]

Just like to add that the Quinine family of drugs is also a safe and scientifically proven method to treating ich, but like copper is toxic to invertibrate life and more expensive and difficult to find. It is a bit easier on fish and useful for copper sensative fish.

Used this and it worked like a charm. Next time, get a 20 gallon tank with nothing in it, and treat new fish in that....Much better than killing your main tank...

[seafloor09]

I was in a larger store the other day that is a direct importer of fish, unlike so many stores which get fish from wholesalers which mix many shipments and cross containment everything not knowing the source.

He claimed many importers are finding a a new strain of ICH that is resistant to copper and hypo-salinity the only thing working for it is quinine.

If he's correct this may be why is now even harder to control.

All his quarantine tanks are using quinine and he says the fish are responding very well.

[greenbean36191]

He may well be having luck with the quinine, but he's feeding you BS about the mutant strain of ich. There are documented cases of hyposalinity tolerant strains of Cryptocaryon but they are uncommon and isolated. Despite the fact that it's one of the most studied marine diseases, there are no documented cases of copper resistance in Cryptocaryon and no reason to suspect they would evolve such an adaptation- much less that it would be widespread. There are certainly no documented cases of any strains that are resistant to BOTH copper and hyposalinity.

[Kieth71]

http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/fish_diseases/marine_ich.html


I am not sure how true this is but it appears to be what seafloor09 is talking about.