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t4zalews
11/05/2009, 06:17 PM
wonder who picked up this gem? btw...I would expect this to cost more.

rgentry123
11/05/2009, 06:18 PM
how much did it go for?

t4zalews
11/05/2009, 06:24 PM
1800 I believe, I know that's not cheap by any means, but for such a rarity, I'm surprised it wasn't more. good buy for whomever got it

olemiss reb
11/05/2009, 06:25 PM
That guy went too quick, how much was he?

tcmfish
11/05/2009, 06:51 PM
Well the email link doesn't work... I was a little annoyed by that, but cool fish.

AquaKnight
11/05/2009, 06:52 PM
I suspected it would sell that fast. It's a good price for a Maze. Esp. would you compare the rarity to the Conspic, which is more expensive.

Though sort of weird DD would remove the links so fast. Usually you can view them for a while afterward. They took the Maze down immediately :crazy1::thumbdown

Kieth71
11/05/2009, 07:17 PM
Is a maze angel a morph of a blueline angel or hybrid or is it its own species?

ccampbell57
11/05/2009, 08:39 PM
There are differing thoughts on the Maze geneology.

Personally I think that it is a blueline x bluespot hybrid that started it off and it is now it's own breed.

mpoletti
11/05/2009, 08:41 PM
What a nice looking fish :eek1:

Ian
11/05/2009, 08:44 PM
Is a maze angel a morph of a blueline angel or hybrid or is it its own species?

Maybe we can get Jeremy to give us his opinion :lol:

Dejavu
11/06/2009, 01:47 AM
Beautiful fish! It one that I would have loved to add.

Kieth71
11/06/2009, 11:28 AM
There are differing thoughts on the Maze geneology.

Personally I think that it is a blueline x bluespot hybrid that started it off and it is now it's own breed.
Yesterday 06:17 PM


Ahh ok ty chris..If it has started to breed between its own and not just a random morph or hybrid i am guessing from the cost of the fish it is still very rare and not an easy to find fish?In other words still a pretty small population?

ccampbell57
11/06/2009, 11:52 AM
This fish is found in a very small area and definitely not common.

There is also a HUGE range of "maze" angels. The one that sold on DD was a great example of a true Maze that had a very dark back with the blue spots and a very orange face.

There are some mazes that look just like morphed bluelines and therefore are less expensive. I have 3 examples of different classes of mazes...I will post shortly to show the variance.

copps
11/06/2009, 02:24 PM
What a fish! Wow... wow... wow... an absolutely stunning specimen! a blueline that fades to black!

The "maze" and "orangeface" angels are a confusing bunch by themselves, made worse by years of propagated misinformation on them combined with our ambitions to define things as black or white when they are sometimes shades of gray... anyway... here's my take...

These fish are all a mix of two, and sometimes three legitimate species... as I've spoken about with other "hybrid swarms" in the past, this is not necessarily a result of having a parent of both species, as the hybrids are likely fertile, breeding back into the population. The result is a dizzying array of intermediate color forms of mixed genetics, not 50/50 hybrids... trying to give these fish a scientific name (Chaetodontoplus chrysocephalus or C. cephalareticulatus), or even a common name like maze or orangeface, runs you into issues, as no two fish are the same and some have just a small percentage of one species and the majority of another...

Many of these scientific names were given out ages ago before we could even see these fish in their natural habitat, based on one specimen collected... and given to fish that are actually hybrids... this has happened with angelfish before, as is the case with "Holacanthus townsendi", now known to be a H. ciliaris/ H. bermudensis cross, and "Apolemichthys armitagei", now known to be an A. trimaculatus/ A. xanthurus cross... I believe this is the case with these fish also.

The three species of concern here are C. septentrionalis- the blue line angel, C. melanosoma- the black velvet (the yellow tailed variant), and C. caeruleopunctatus- the blue spotted angel... The fish listed by LA appears to be a combination of the first two species. I prefer to call this fish a septentrionalis hybrid or septentrionalis/melanosoma hybrid... as we understand more about these fish in nature it's becoming more clear that these fish are indeed hybrids also... this particular hybrid shown here has a decent range in nature actually, but has only been found singly or with groups of full blooded septentrionalis... and is not a self sustaining population of intermediate color form like the Centropyge flavicauda of the Maldives or the Centropyge cf. vroliki found at Rowley Shoals off Australia... or we would see them more often... if it was a regional color form we'd see them more often, as they are not a deepwater species...

Anyway, the genetics need to be looked at to be sure, and I've teamed up with a few ichthyologist friends with the funds and desire to look at many of these fish... so perhaps soon we'll have the answer... I have a line of things to be looked at...

Oh... and I'll post more pictures for you guys when I receive this fish...:celeb1:

Copps :)

Rare Angels
11/06/2009, 02:29 PM
John,

I had this fish in my cart and you must have completed your order before me. Better luck next time I hope for my sake. Enjoy it and make sure to take a ton of pictures.

Dave

copps
11/06/2009, 02:34 PM
Thanks Dave... I will probably display this fish with an existing Taiwanese blueline I have, and potentially add a full C. melanosoma too... that would be neat... and mixing Chaetodontoplus is relatively easy in relation to other angel genera...

Oh, and anyone reading this far in will want to pick up the next issue of Reef Life Magazine, where Kevin Kohen will have an article on these fish published...

jmaneyapanda
11/06/2009, 03:08 PM
huzzah, coppster.

Rare Angels
11/06/2009, 03:13 PM
John,

I recieved my copy of Reef Life on Monday and seen the article. That's why I really wanted the fish when I seen it for sale on DD.

Dave

Rare Angels
11/06/2009, 03:16 PM
Hey John,

I just thought of something while I was writing my last reply. The armitage angelfish you have was purchased from DD also, that is another fish I really wanted and you got to it before me, now this maze angel. :) WOuld you leave some for the rest of us? just kidding, you have a great collection of angels

Dave

melanotaenia
11/06/2009, 03:32 PM
Beautiful fish.

copps
11/06/2009, 03:54 PM
Hey John,

I just thought of something while I was writing my last reply. The armitage angelfish you have was purchased from DD also, that is another fish I really wanted and you got to it before me, now this maze angel. :) WOuld you leave some for the rest of us? just kidding, you have a great collection of angels

Dave

Sorry Dave!:beer: I always prefer to see fish like these go to people who really appreciate and are passionate about them. Many of us in this forum sometimes give each other grief, and there are many different personalities, but we all share one thing, and that's the passion... the passion that bonds us together and distinguishes us... the passion that causes us to check the Diver's Den nightly... the passion that brings us to the Reef Fishes forum here all of the time... the passion that is making you read this right here! People always ask with my collection, "How can you spend that on a fish that will eventually die sometime?" My response has been in my signature... our fish may die but our memories live forever... whether this fish lives six months or ten years, it will be worth it to me, as the memories will always be with me... along with my passion... :)

ccampbell57
11/06/2009, 03:58 PM
Great pick-up John! I was wondering if you were the one that got it!

I would love to see it in the same tank with melanosoma and blueline...it would be a great "how to create a Maze" tank ;)

copps
11/06/2009, 04:07 PM
Thanks Chris... it's cool to display fish like that... I do that in my house with the Zebrasoma rostratum/scopas hybrid, and am planning that for my rusty/flame angel hybrid... not only is it convenient to be able to show people that come by "x + y = z", it will also be neat to see what spawning relationship they form... to see if they perhaps do the nightly "mixed species" nasty that my Centropyge resplendens/ C. fisheri pair did... :bounce3:

ccampbell57
11/06/2009, 04:21 PM
Throw the conspic in the mix and see if you can get a REALLY funky mixture ;)

SDguy
11/06/2009, 04:58 PM
Great pickup John! Congrats! I look forward to seeing more pics of this lovely fish.

Rare Angels
11/06/2009, 05:10 PM
I like the way you think Chris! :)

tanglovers
11/06/2009, 05:13 PM
Awesome pickup John! A very cool addition for sure!

Mentat
11/06/2009, 08:19 PM
Oh... and I'll post more pictures for you guys when I receive this fish...:celeb1:Copps :)
Learning lots while reading you post over a cup of coffee and then chocked on it while laughing at this part :mixed:. Kindly post more pictures of this beauty once you get it settled at home John.

ckuhndog77
11/06/2009, 09:46 PM
Oh... and I'll post more pictures for you guys when I receive this fish...:celeb1:

Copps :)

I get to see it tomorrow :bounce2::bounce3::bounce1:

see you in morning bro.

Iwishihadgills
11/06/2009, 09:56 PM
Good job on your quick computer skills and grabbing that sweet fish quickly copps. How long did it take for you to buy it once it was up? lol

Beaun
11/06/2009, 11:15 PM
Just got back from our monthly reef club meeting (long island reef association) with Kevin from DD as the speaker. He mentioned that they had this fish in their quarantine/holding system for 5 months before putting it up for sale. Just thought it was kind of interesting and worth sharing.

copps
11/07/2009, 12:00 AM
Thanks so much guys... it really is a pleasure sharing this with you guys... This is the blueline she'll be joining after a few months of QT and transition... sorry for the blurry pic, but this is why I take pics in a specimen container! Also in this system are my trio of Red Sea regal angels that have been together almost five years now, amongst many others... :)

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx114/johnjcoppolino/blueline.jpg

Throw the conspic in the mix and see if you can get a REALLY funky mixture ;)

This system runs too high in temp for my tiny conspic... I have a number of very cool (and very cool water) small specimens that the conspic will join in a new coolwater tank I'm adding to one of my large systems, with a dedicated chiller to drop the temp down an extra 5-7 degrees (to around 70-72), trickle fed from the main system so that I do not need to add all of the required life support of a separate system... I have some very very special fish going into this tank... always keeping it exciting! :) Here's the little guy...

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx114/johnjcoppolino/conspic.jpg

Copps

LuvAngels88
11/07/2009, 01:47 AM
That is an awesome tank this fish is going into, John! Congrats on the beautiful new addition! As always, thanks for all the great info all of us angelfish nuts love. Can't wait to see more pics!

amore169
11/07/2009, 03:20 AM
Amazing fish!! Very nice.

kinlayan
11/07/2009, 02:17 PM
what a beautiful conspic wow!!! you are blessed to have these fish!
Thank you for sharing!

copps
11/10/2009, 03:56 PM
I wish I had better news... I received the fish Saturday, packed of course excellently in its own 40 lb. box by LA. This fish was in excellent shape before shipping... I trust and respect Kevin Kohen and the DD more than any other online retail outlet... Kevin is a good friend and knows his stuff... but unfortunately whenever you ship something you take a risk... the fish came in on its side, only swimming when coaxed, in that "tail down" position... I knew immediately it was in the "living dead" category, and the fish passed less than 72 hours later in QT... no outward signs of disease or anything... an otherwise apparently healthy fish with no swim bladder control... it's happened to me before with well shipped healthy fish... oh well...

Fortunately, this fish's death was not in vain, and this fish will be donated to science. As I've mentioned before I've partnered up with a couple of ichthyologists to answer many of the angelfish questions I've had for years, and this guys DNA will come in handy...

Any way you look at it, uncontrollable fish deaths suck... but more mazes will come... long ago in this hobby (and now in life), I've learned to only worry about things under my control... :)

Copps

Luiz Rocha
11/10/2009, 04:06 PM
That really sucks, when I saw the first posts I was expecting to see pics of it swimming in your QT towards the end of the thread :(

Fortunately, this fish's death was not in vain, and this fish will be donated to science. As I've mentioned before I've partnered up with a couple of ichthyologists to answer many of the angelfish questions I've had for years, and this guys DNA will come in handy...

I've received a lot of Chaetodontoplus from a few RC members and have almost all species of the genus now, this will be a marvelous addition if you can spare a sample for me... I have a box of tubes and preservative for you on its way.

I've learned to only worry about things under my control... :)

Now that's the attitude!

mpoletti
11/10/2009, 04:10 PM
I'm sorry to hear John. Good luck with the next one ;)

copps
11/10/2009, 04:16 PM
Thanks guys... Luiz buddy... no worries! As we spoke about I've got so many specimens lined up to look at... living and dead... either way I'm fin chopping! :) Let's get these questions answered! :)

ccampbell57
11/10/2009, 04:18 PM
Damn dude...sorry John.

I know how you feel man. How big was the little guy?

Luiz Rocha
11/10/2009, 04:20 PM
No worries, just excited about the possibility of putting my hands (or pipettes) on some of these species that I never had the chance to study before :) I just feel bad it took me so long to find these forums! Duh :eek1:

copps
11/10/2009, 04:21 PM
This fish was not that big in "maze angel" standards... about 5 inches... every inch up in length results in an exponentially larger fish... fortunately this past week I received another little angelfish hybrid that is doing excellently... this of the eastern Pacific variety... :)

copps
11/10/2009, 04:23 PM
No worries, just excited about the possibility of putting my hands (or pipettes) on some of these species that I never had the chance to study before :) I just feel bad it took me so long to find these forums! Duh :eek1:

Thanks Luiz... wait until you see what I have in my freezer... I've saved everything through the years... and what I can get my hands on from my living collection I'm willing to chop too... I'm even gathering others frozen fish... :)

mpoletti
11/10/2009, 04:51 PM
This fish was not that big in "maze angel" standards... about 5 inches... every inch up in length results in an exponentially larger fish... fortunately this past week I received another little angelfish hybrid that is doing excellently... this of the eastern Pacific variety... :)


Tease :bounce1:

copps
11/10/2009, 05:17 PM
I figured I'd throw a bone to the angelfish nuts that can extrapolate what this fish is and figure it out 100% based on that info... :)

mpoletti
11/10/2009, 05:19 PM
I figured I'd throw a bone to the angelfish nuts that can extrapolate what this fish is and figure it out 100% based on that info... :)


I'd rather just get a PM, email or see a thread with a whole bunch of pictures :D

Iwishihadgills
11/10/2009, 06:17 PM
I'd rather just get a PM, email or see a thread with a whole bunch of pictures :D

+1 for pictures of this other hybrid

Sheol
11/10/2009, 06:23 PM
Copps got it? Why am I not surprised?!! LOL

Matthew

Sheol
11/10/2009, 06:25 PM
Sigh.. Cancel my above quip. Sorry, John. Tho that is why some of us hesitate when it comes to very expensive fish..
Anyway, sorry to hear it.

Matthew

Dejavu
11/10/2009, 06:25 PM
Sorry about the loss.... I'm sure another one will find it's way to you.

tanglovers
11/10/2009, 06:35 PM
Sorry to hear about the maze John. That other hybrid is a real gem!

myerst2
11/10/2009, 07:44 PM
I have a feeling Johns new hybrid like patron.

rmougey
11/10/2009, 08:06 PM
Ah crap.... Sorry to hear that. I had a similar loss over the summer when a much larger Maze came in (I think Chris might have a pic). It was infested with flukes, ate marginally and succumbed within a short period. I had a chance, I thought, of pulling it out. But oodinium in the QT was one straw too many.

Hope you get another chance.... they are stunning fish with that orange face and black posterior.

-Rob

ccampbell57
11/11/2009, 01:47 AM
Mr. Mougey I do have pictures of your stunning fish! Let me tell everyone on this thread that the maze was the nicest angel I have EVER seen...hands down.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj36/ccampbell57/maze6-1.jpg

Outerbank
11/11/2009, 01:49 AM
Sorry about the loss John.

daytonben
11/11/2009, 02:32 AM
Such a nice fish.

t4zalews
11/11/2009, 09:29 AM
Im so bummed...I feel like I lost it. That was an awesome fish

copps
11/15/2009, 01:00 PM
Thanks guys for all of the kind words... on a more positive note I got this little blueline... also from Taiwan, that seems to show more black on the back portion than normal... a beautiful chubby fish... :)

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx114/johnjcoppolino/blueline_small1-1.jpg

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx114/johnjcoppolino/blueline_small2-1.jpg

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx114/johnjcoppolino/blueline_small3-1.jpg

Copps

Ian
11/15/2009, 01:03 PM
what kind of temperature was the blue line collected, John?

SDguy
11/15/2009, 01:21 PM
I saw several pics recently of juveniles with the darker back end. Is this not normal?

ShrimpChipGal
11/15/2009, 01:27 PM
Sorry to hear on the maze.
The little blueline is simply stunning.

copps
11/15/2009, 01:31 PM
Ian, I'm not sure... these fish exported out of Taiwan are collected in a wide range around Taiwan, so I don't know... my large Taiwan blueline has been fine at 77-78 though for a while, and remember that this species ranges south...

Peter, the black mine shows is more than normal... although this doesn't necessarily mean input from another species... genetics will tell though, and I can do the choppy choppy on one of his fins... :)

Mentat
11/15/2009, 05:02 PM
Sorry for the Maze... death happens. You new Blueline is such a gorgeous little fish, congrats John.

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx114/johnjcoppolino/blueline_small1-1.jpg

mdrc
11/15/2009, 06:38 PM
john, the little blue line and conspic are just simply amazing, and i have a thing for small angels

tanglovers
11/15/2009, 07:19 PM
Awesome little blue line John! One of the smaller ones I have seen for sure!

Iwishihadgills
11/15/2009, 07:44 PM
I love your new little guy! Hes Sweet! Im jelous :)

copps
11/16/2009, 11:23 PM
Thanks so much guys... it's such a joy to share these special fish... this little blueline is very special... his posterior is darker than any other blueline I've seen in person... and he's thriving in QT... :) I'm undecided on whether to place him with the larger blueline or in a newer coolwater system I'm adding to one of my systems with a bunch of 2"-3" very cool fish I've had in separate systems for a while... and some newer ones... these three guys I've had for a couple of years now... almost...

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx114/johnjcoppolino/bandit_gem2-1.jpg

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx114/johnjcoppolino/bandit_gem3-1.jpg

And junior here... growing too fast... this picture's old now...

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx114/johnjcoppolino/bandit_volvo_small_1-1.jpg

Copps

Iwishihadgills
11/17/2009, 12:54 AM
Do you think the black will fade as she gets older? Maybe its retaining a little of the juvenile colors

jmaneyapanda
11/17/2009, 06:02 AM
Hey Coppmeister,

I was under the impression that most, if not all, Taiwanese blueline had this "blacker" posterior. Here is mine, which Ive had for maybe a year now. Its a pretty amazing and high quality photo. I suck with pics.

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn205/jmaneyapanda/n1160255509_1579290_7298435.jpg

ccampbell57
11/17/2009, 08:47 AM
Mine was caught off the Izu Peninsula in Japan. It was caught in 69 degree water.

He has more black than I have seen, but he is still quite small so I am not sure what the future holds. He is also much more orange than my previous Tiawanese specimen.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj36/ccampbell57/DSC_0532.jpg

flameangel88
11/17/2009, 09:01 AM
I don't know what's happening to me but the passing of my BL with the bulge may have hit me harder than I realize because all of a sudden every BL picture I see have either a bulge or a pinch stomach. Arg...I think I need to see 'Fish Shrink' for cure.

SDguy
11/17/2009, 09:27 AM
I don't know what's happening to me but the passing of my BL with the bulge may have hit me harder than I realize because all of a sudden every BL picture I see have either a bulge or a pinch stomach. Arg...I think I need to see 'Fish Shrink' for cure.

It's not just you, I think the pic above has it pretty clear. Now is it a bulge AND a pinched stomach, or just what looks like a bulge due to the pinched stomach right next to it?

ccampbell57
11/17/2009, 09:30 AM
here is a front view...now remember this picture was taken 3 weeks after the fish was introduced.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj36/ccampbell57/DSC_0534.jpg

jmaneyapanda
11/17/2009, 10:55 AM
Chris, interesting OTHER fish in that pic. Youre naughty.

tcmfish
11/17/2009, 10:59 AM
Yeah he always likes to get a little of that bad boy in his blue line pics.