Solder or Wire Nut?

[tjanowski]

I'm about to finalize my wiring for my T5 retrofit. I am wondering if I should solder the connections or just use a wire nut? Are there any advantages to doing one over the other? Thanks for your advice.

Tim

[billdogg]

wire nuts will be fine. either spring for the water tight (outdoor) type, or put a small squirt of silicone in them to seal them off

[jayk198030]

wire nuts will be fine. either spring for the water tight (outdoor) type, or put a small squirt of silicone in them to seal them off

+1 or i like to use crimp-on male/female connecters. you can get them in water proof type or your basic types. i think it looks better and its plug and play.

[stugray]

HD has quick disconnect plugs for ballasts.

2 or 3 wire versions

They are press-in for 18 Ga solid wire.

Stu

[Cuby2k]

I would not solder anything, I think it is old technology. To solder correctly you need to flux. Flux may leach.

Wire nuts are excellent for all wire connections in this application and also accommodate remodel work as needed.

[tkeracer619]

How is soldering old technology? All the newest highest end electronics are soldered not wire nutted.

I would solder it. I hate wire nuts or any other quick fix that is designed to replace soldering. This is especially true in the marine environment where corrosion is accelerated.

[rhoptowit]

i think soldering would result in the least resistance when done right. solder then shrink wrap is my vote.

[Plan>B]

HD has quick disconnect plugs for ballasts.

2 or 3 wire versions

They are press-in for 18 Ga solid wire.

Stu
+1 as it is also the new code :)

[uncleof6]

How is soldering old technology? All the newest highest end electronics are soldered not wire nutted.

I would solder it. I hate wire nuts or any other quick fix that is designed to replace soldering. This is especially true in the marine environment where corrosion is accelerated.

Soldering is definitely not old. This is the best way to build your fixtures. Wire nuts are unreliable, especially with relatively inexperienced hands.

I would go as far to say the terminal blocks and soldered ring terminals are called for. (For ease of remodeling.) But then, build it right, build it once.

I don't know what the "leaching flux" issue is about. A rosin core solder would be used anyway.

If going to build a fixture, why not build it better than what you can buy? If the manufacturers did this with their fixtures, it would cost 1600 bucks instead of 800 bucks. It is easy to see why they take the "short cut": minimum investment, maximum profit.

Jim

[skunkmere]

yea, soldering is here to stay. learn to use it and you will be awesome at diy.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

I don't know what the "leaching flux" issue is about. A rosin core solder would be used anyway.


Besides the fact that it takes about 12 seconds to wash any excess rosin flux off and/or either lacquer or shrinkwrap the connection, making "leaching" of anything a total non-issue.

Claiming that solder shouldn't be used because it's old technology is like saying that car manufacturers should all rivet steel instead of welding, because welding is old - the statement makes no sense. The age of the method isn't important, but the correct application is. In this case, soldering is absolutely valid and correct. Perhaps it's not the *only* method that would work, but it's certainly not inappropriate.

[justshoe]

I would without a doubt solder them together. Also i would spring for some good heatshrink tubing that has the glue inside it to melt and seal the joint. Im not sure where to tell you to get this mcmaster may have it. I work at a chrysler dealer and i get all of mine directly from the parts dept. I used to have a part number for a package of 20 but it since turned into a recall part number and can no longer be purchased over the counter. The glue reallllly helps keep out the moisture from the joint.

[A sea K]

I just finished my lighting upgrade and every connection is soldered and shrinkwrapped. This is for both MH and T-5

[BeanAnimal]

I would not solder anything, I think it is old technology. To solder correctly you need to flux. Flux may leach.

Wire nuts are excellent for all wire connections in this application and also accommodate remodel work as needed.

Old technology? By no means is solder old technology. Furthermore, "flux" for electronics applications is PINE RESIN. In ANY soldering application (electronics, plumbing, wiring, stained glass, etc) the flux is NOT part of the finished joint, it is pushed to the surface and should be wiped away clean to finish the joint. There is no leaching...

That said, the decision to use a solder joint compared to a wire nut will depend on the location of the joint. Is it in the fixture, the hood... where?

[stugray]

If you really want to solder wire to wire splices, the easiest, by far, is the solder sleeve.

You dont even need a soldering iron. I have done it with a lighter or heat gun:

http://www.strancoproducts.com/downloads/CWT%20SolderSleeve.pdf

http://www.allproducts.com/manufacture13/uta/Product-200955165645-l.jpg

You just hold the two wires together with "helping hands" slide one of these over it & hit it with heat.

The solder melts & completes the circuit while the heat shrink tubing collapses. They even have the sealant to seal the ends.

Stu

[SFeST]

I always solder if it's an option, unless it's a prototype or something that needs to be undone. I did all my lighting with solder, molex connectors and copious amounts of heat shrink.

[Cuby2k]

How is soldering old technology? All the newest highest end electronics are soldered not wire nutted.

I would solder it. I hate wire nuts or any other quick fix that is designed to replace soldering. This is especially true in the marine environment where corrosion is accelerated.

Semiconductors are manufactured by direct conductor contact without solder. Solder adds a layer of potentials failure. The highest electronics do NOT use solder, it is old school.

Wire nuts are far from quick fix, they are adopted by all civilized codes as THEE way to connect conductors.

But to each his/her own.

[Daemonfly]

Wire nuts do work fine, but there is also a variance in the quality. To simplify it, consider them in 2 groups.

1. The cheapo ones that just use round wire coiled up inside and fall off if you sneeze on them.

2. The good ones that use square or other geometrically profiled wire that have a definite sharp edge will actually bite and hold very well.

As for solder, you can get lead-free flux/rosin-free solder and then use a non-toxic water-soluble flux. One can also not use any flux at all, but it's a bit more difficult to get a good solder joint.

If you're here in the DIY section to begin with, I'd suggest one of the less "permanent" solutions if you don't want to end up constantly cutting the wires the next couple times you rearrange everything :P

Also, if you don't want the wire connections exposed, just get a small plastic box (Radio Shack project boxes would work), drill a hole or two, throw the wires in there & seal holes with a bit of silicone.

[jculver09]

The highest electronics do NOT use solder, it is old school.


What would the highest electronics be? I cant think of a single electrical device that doesnt use soldering somewhere inside of it. Unless your talking about individual componenets like CPU's or something where the pathways are etched using UV because they are just way too small. Computers and audio are where my electronics experience lay, and in either of those fields (especially audio) if you suggested wire nuts over solder you'd be laughed at.

Which brings me to the point of all this. I prefer solder because things dont un solder themselves unless youve got some other serious problems. If you decide on wire nuts, the suggestion of putting them in their own box is fantastic, and so is the idea of putting the bit of silicon in the bottom to keep water out.

whatever you do, remember what they say: piece of mind is priceless.

[BeanAnimal]

Semiconductors are manufactured by direct conductor contact without solder. Solder adds a layer of potentials failure. The highest electronics do NOT use solder, it is old school. Sorry, but you are confusing two (or more) very different issues to come to your assumption/conclusion. Yes, of course there is no solder inside a typical semiconductor...

We connect semiconductors to each other, to supporting components, to connectors and to the outside world via solder. It is far from old school. Solder is the mainstay of the electronics and electrical products manufacturing industry. Solder has become very high tech in the last 20 years and is not going anywhere in our lifetime. Almost every component in your computer, cell phone, tv, digital watch, etc is connected via solder. Even the solderless connectors for components are connected to the circuit boards with solder.

But, most importantly, point-to-point wiring has NOTHING to do with semiconductors and this is a point-to-point wiring topic.

Wire nuts are far from quick fix, they are adopted by all civilized codes as THEE way to connect conductors. No, they are ONE of many ways to connect conductors in certain situations and ARE NOT LEGAL IN ALL CIVILIZED NATIONS.

WIRE NUTS ARE ILLEGAL IN THE UK. (and some other civilized nations).

There are many other accepted (or required) ways to connect conductors. The environment dictates the most appropriate method.


mechanical butt connectors
set screw type lug connectors
insulation displacement connectors
solder
ring and terminal
spring terminal block (stab ins)
etc

[der_wille_zur_macht]

There are many other accepted ways to connect conductors.


mechanical butt connectors
set screw type lug connectors
insulation displacement connectors
solder
ring and terminal
spring terminal block (stab ins)
etc


And, IMHO, it's pretty fair to say that each method has it's own benefits and drawbacks, and each is applicable in different situations. Discussing semiconductor manufacturing or home wiring in a thread about wiring a ballast should, IMHO, only be done if presented in context. :)

[BeanAnimal]

And, IMHO, it's pretty fair to say that each method has it's own benefits and drawbacks, and each is applicable in different situations. Discussing semiconductor manufacturing or home wiring in a thread about wiring a ballast should, IMHO, only be done if presented in context. :)

Yup... we tend to lose context in some of these threads very easily :)


Something that has not been mentioned...

Solder should be thought of as an electrical connection, not a mechanical connection (in the context of point-to-point wiring). When we solder wires together, we need to ensure that we also have a good mechanical connection to solder. One of the time tested and accepted methods is the Western Union style splice...
http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14027/img/14027_122_2.jpg

[stugray]

Cuby2k,

"Semiconductors are manufactured by direct conductor contact without solder. Solder adds a layer of potentials failure. The highest electronics do NOT use solder, it is old school."

I want some of what you are smoking!

I work in the electronics field building very highly advanced electronics.
One box the size of a loaf of bread can be worth tens of millions of dollars.

How do we make 99% of the connections inside these boxes?
SOLDER

When we assemble the harness that connects most of the boxes together, how do we make the connections? SOLDER

There are SOME connections inside the boxes that use card edge connections from board to backplane but we try to minimize them WHY - Reliability!

We even solder down ALL of our chips. Not a single socketed part in an entire assembly.
Not even the CPU....

Stu

[BeanAnimal]

There are SOME connections inside the boxes that use card edge connections from board to backplane but we try to minimize them WHY - Reliability! But how are the card edge connectors connected to the board... SOLDER :)

We even solder down ALL of our chips. Not a single socketed part in an entire assembly.
Not even the CPU....

Stu

Yeah I can't imagine a satellite with a ZIFF socket in it... The launch stress and thermal cycling would have that puppy worked out of place in no time :)

I would be interested to see the methods used to prevent circuit failure in space applications... I would imagine it is an ever evolving field.

[stugray]

Bean,

"I would be interested to see the methods used to prevent circuit failure"

I could tell you but the ITAR police would be all over me.

Some of the simple stuff: NO TIN, NO silicone, conformal coat everything.
We use socketed FPGAs until the design is finalized, then we remove the socket & solder them down for flight.


Now back on topic:

As Plan>B said above:

"as it is also the new code"

I shall repeat: Go to HD and you get a box of these for $5

http://www.drillspot.com/pimages/4189/418959_300.jpg

Strip, push, click, youre done.

Why does everyone try to make this difficult.

These are what the pros use for ballasts.

Stu

[BeanAnimal]

The code requires the "disconnect" to be between the mains supply and the ballast... While I doubt that there is any issue using those on the load side of the ballast (for our application) it should be pointed out (from a liability standpoint) that they may not be rated for such use. That said, they likely make better contact than the crappy springs in the endcaps and are just as insulative :)

[stugray]

I also use them in my LED lighting.

And I am one of those "crazy guys" who uses 600V extension cord wire and regular AC power plugs on the load side of my MH ballasts ;-)

Stu

[houser]

Space/UHV - can we say lead free soldier? Tangental I know..

[BeanAnimal]

I suspect the "no tin" rule is due to whisker growth in UHV/ZG environments... I was under the imperssion that ANY lead free solder is much more prone to whisker growth than its silver/lead conterparts and huge gripe with regard to the silly RoHS/IPC initiatives.

[stugray]

houser,

No actually we still use lead since TIN is a no-no as Bean said.

The RoHS initiative actually messed us up & it is sometimes hard to find ball grid array parts with the old solder on them.

Some startup companies took advantage of this fact and offer to remove the lead free solder from the BGAs and replace with the good old fashioned ( sorry "old school" ) lead/silver.

Stu

[BeanAnimal]

Wow... I would have thought that you guys would steer clear of BGA parts in favor of compliant structures (like PGA) due to the thermal and physical stresses that the BGA contact points have to go through on orbit... Then again only that may only make sense in my small mind :)

[Cuby2k]

Well I recall the original question as "Are there any advantages to doing one over the other? "

The advantage of wire nuts are that they are effective, secure, clean, and the flex and expand and contract with temperature swings. That is why mechanical connections are used in all power connections from main transmission systems to your light switch.

Solder is brittle, time consuming, dirty and it smells bad. :eek1: Solder reliability is contingent on consistent temperature and is NOT used in stress applications. That is why it is rarely used in the production of auto's, airplanes, refrigerators, and on and on.

Can you imagine soldering your main power feeders into your home?

Anywaqy, that is just my opinion of which is best and why.

[BeanAnimal]

Well I recall the original question as "Are there any advantages to doing one over the other? "That may be what the question was, but your answer was that solder is an outdated technology that would leach bad things into the tank. Several people kindly pointed out that your information was incorrect and your response was to reply with several more incorrect points and a gap in context to support your original argument.

The advantage of wire nuts are that they are effective, secure, clean, and the flex and expand and contract with temperature swings.Nobody has said anything to the contrary, to frame your comments in a manner that would infer that we have argued otherwise is very misleading. Wire nuts are an acceptable method to connect the conductors in question, provided that a silicone grease or other means are used to prevent oxidization of the conductors. Solder is also an acceptable method of connection.


That is why mechanical connections are used in all power connections from main transmission systems to your light switch.You are confusing context here. This is not a mains power transmission question, it is a point-to-point device wiring question. The two situations are very different to say the least. There is enough collective knowledge here to help your understanding, if you are interested.


Solder is brittle, time consuming, dirty and it smells bad. Solder reliability is contingent on consistent temperature and is NOT used in stress applications. That is why it is rarely used in the production of auto's, airplanes, refrigerators, and on and on. You are again confusing the contexts of many different environments and applications. An aquarium hood is not not an airplane and the criteria used to choose a connector are simply not at all similar... but more importantly solder is used in many aspects of autos, airplanes, refrigerators... We can provide as many examples as needed if there is any question.


Can you imagine soldering your main power feeders into your home? As was already pointed out, the means of connection used on a high ampacity mains power connections has nothing to do with a low current connection in a lighting fixture and is out of context here.

Anywaqy, that is just my opinion of which is best and why. You are entitled to an opinion but you have posted several arguments that are not factually correct or not supported by the context here. To ignore the posts that correct the facts and to continue to offer more faulty reasoning to support the opinion would appear to be nothing more than an attempt to perpatuate an argument.

If you prefer wire nuts, then you certainly have the freedom to use them. However, soldering the load side ballast wires is also a perfectly viable alternative that offers protection from oxidization and takes up very little room. There are pros and cons to each method and the goals of the installer and the environment will dictate what the "best" method is.

[Cuby2k]

Oh brother . . .
:twitch:

. . . .

. . . . .


If you prefer wire nuts, then you certainly have the freedom to use them. .

Whew, finally.

Bean, I am not sure why you choose to battle my opinions. If your attempt is to single me out and change my position you will need to do it with much more logic, fact and tact than you have presented.

I have posted nothing that is not substantiated by fact. You state that my posts contain statements with incorrect posts yet you fail to provide factual, specific and logical responses.

If you disagree with my opinions please put me on your ignore list, but please stick to the thread topic.

[Canoe]

Boy are there issues. The problem is that each method's reliability is dependent on implementing the method correctly. How and where you contain the connection that is getting joined will determine the likely hood of failure and the consequences of such.

Too bad this wasn't audiophile wiring where the clear DIY solution is a gold plated copper sleeve crimped with the proper tool for a cold-weld joint. Best sound quality and the easiest to DIY correctly for reliability.

What have we got, or have the potential for:
thermal cycling
salt water splash (or creep?)
condensation
vibration

Real problems. Difficult choices.

Soldering
I don't like soldering anymore, but with the Western-Union-Style-Splice of the wires as illustrated in a post above, soldering should survive all risks if it's contained within a sealed heat-shrink - it isn't dependent on high quality soldering skills (as audio signal paths require).

Wire nuts
Wire nuts are a no-go if they're cheap, won't survive the thermal cycling and are somewhat more difficult to seal afterward, and if you don't use them (even the good ones) correctly they'll fail with thermal cycling or vibration.

Clip/Clamps
The clip/clamp type connectors are notorious for failure in automotive use where we have thermal cycling, weather & salt and vibration (may be fine inside a ceiling lighting fixture, but not near my SW tank).

Crimps
Insulated crimps are a no go - can't get the proper reliable cold-weld connection. With non-insulated sleeves I don't like the use of crimping due to the thermal cycling potential to break the cold-weld (and soldering them afterward breaks the cold-weld and doesn't leave enough space for a proper solder so you double fail - no strength from either).

Combo-Sleeve solder/wrap/seal
The combo-sleeve for soldering, shrink-warp and sealing looks interesting - wish I had experience with them to trust them. Wires can be Western-Union-Style-Splice with the combo sleeve slid up a wire first, and then slid into place?

Darn. I hate soldering, but the Western-Union-Style-Splice with sealed heat-shrink or with the combo-sleeve seems to fit the task best.

Hadn't stopped to think about this before. One thing I'd make sure of is a decent strain relief and I'd try for a design that allowed for at least a splash shield or preferably a sealed junction box design.

[BeanAnimal]

Oh brother . . .
:twitch:



Whew, finally.

Bean, I am not sure why you choose to battle my opinions. If your attempt is to single me out and change my position you will need to do it with much more logic, fact and tact than you have presented.
Honestly... your kidding right? You entered a thread and attempted to tell a group of well educated and informed people that solder is old technology and no longer used. You did so in the context that their (our) advice was ill informed. You have ignored every single post pointing out the flaws in your argument and continued to post those arguments.

I have posted nothing that is not substantiated by fact. You state that my posts contain statements with incorrect posts yet you fail to provide factual, specific and logical responses. Sure you have. Not only have many of us provided specific facts, but we have done so with great clarity, context and logic. Heck, you are arguing with a guy that designs products that go into space... a real rocket scientist.


You said solder was old technology that is no longer used. It is used in almost every electronic device on planet earth. Do you need specific examples? Find me an electronic device in your home or office that has no solder in it.
You said that solder will leach flux. You were wrong, the flux is not part of the finished joint and therefore can not leach out.
You infered that FLUX was bad thing. You were wrong, FLUX for electronics components is PINE SAP (rosin) or water soluable. In EITHER case, it MUST be wiped away from the finished joint. Soldering 101.
You said that all civilized codes accept the use of wire nuts. You were wrong. Wire nuts were banned in the UK code in the 1960's. They are not listed as approved in the British Standards BS7671. The UK frowns upon lose wire connection inside a box. They use terminal blocks for everything, as do most contries that have UK influence or direct trade.
You said the solder is not used in electronics anymore and mentioned semiconductors. You were wrong. There is no solder IN a semiconductor die but they are attached to the outside world with solder. To that end, the most complex semiconductors on planet earth are computer CPUs. The actual "chip" is about the size of a fingernail, the whole big package that YOU call a CPU is resin, wire and solder that connects the "chip" to the pins or balls that interface to the motherboard.
You said that solder is not used in refrigerators, autos, or airplanes. You were wrong, It most certainly is. There is solder in numerous circuits and locations in all of those products.
You said wire nuts are not prone to failure due to thermal cycling and vibration. You are wrong, they are certainly prone to failure in those circumstances in some environments. You are ignoring context again.
Cuby, if you post your opinion in public, you need to be prepared to have it responded to. If your facts and/or context are off, then people are going to point out why. I don't think any of us care to change your mind... we just strive to correct logic, facts, and context presented in arguments. We do so in hopes that others following along are not misinformed. The rub is that no matter what is preseneted, you refuse to acknowlege it and instead of having a conversation, you post more of the same. I think a few of us are scratching our heads as to your motives here.

[BeanAnimal]

Boy are there issues. The problem is that each method's reliability is dependent on implementing the method correctly. How and where you contain the connection that is getting joined will determine the likely hood of failure and the consequences of such. That pretty much sums it up. No matter what method is selected, the joint has to be kept free of oxidization. Faulty connections on the load side of a ballast present a real world potential for an arcing type of fire.

[rhoptowit]

wow, i love it when bean animal and stu come to join the party....you learn alot.

[Cuby2k]

Bean,

I will say you are a master at mis-quoting and taking items out of context. However, I have a full time job and don't have the time or desire to constantly correct you.

Like I said, if my posts bother you, ignore them.

[BeanAnimal]

Nobody here has mis-quoted or attacked you Cuby. You chose to enter a debate, but don't appear to want to acknowledge the facts or arguments put forth by others. Attempting to project your behavior towards me is certainly not going to fool anybody my friend. I think you will find that most reasonable people see through that kind of silliness.

You said:
I would not solder anything, I think it is old technology. To solder correctly you need to flux. Flux may leach.

Semiconductors are manufactured by direct conductor contact without solder. Solder adds a layer of potentials failure. The highest electronics do NOT use solder, it is old school.

Wire nuts are far from quick fix, they are adopted by all civilized codes as THEE way to connect conductors.

Solder is brittle, time consuming, dirty and it smells bad. :eek1: Solder reliability is contingent on consistent temperature and is NOT used in stress applications. That is why it is rarely used in the production of auto's, airplanes, refrigerators, and on and on.

Can you imagine soldering your main power feeders into your home?



Your three posts on this topic are listed above and clearly illustrate yout context. and arguments. We have responded directly and logically to the points you have made. Instead of arguing the points and sticking to the subject you want to ignore the facts and attempt to create a confrontation with me. This is starting to develop into a pattern and is not welcome. When you enter a debate, you need to be prepared to support your arguments and accept when they are proven to be wrong or out of context. You have posted opinion and others have posted facts that show your opinion to be misinformed. Almost every contributor to this thread has kindly attempted to correct your statements. Please don't turn this into a personal thing.