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biglurr54
11/16/2009, 05:45 PM
I have an ick out break in my 120 gallon reef tank. i bought it as a 7 year old tank and during the move i put all the fish and coral in my 30 gallon reef that i had set up. neither tank had ick. the 30 was going to be my qt when the 120 is stable enough to put everything in it after the move. my girlfriend bought a copperbanded butter fly and brought it home. it looked fine so i put it in the big tank to keep is separate from everything else. it seemed fine. about a week went by and the tank was established and i started to move the corals and fish back into the 120. soon the copper banded had ick. it started from a spot on its tail that i saw when she brought it home but thought it wasn't anything. th copper band died. i stopped adding fish and corals in the main tank. i let it sit for about a week and a half and one clown died from ick and the other one is starting to have a bad case of it. the blue hippo hasn't got any on it yet. my corals haven't been doing well in the tank either. What can i do to treat the tank and save all the coral, live rock, and fish. I have been doing 20 gallon water changes every week. what do i do?

wooden_reefer
11/16/2009, 06:20 PM
If you bothered to have a QT why did you put the CBB in the DT?

No fish look fine. All fish must be QT'ed with active treatment against ich for eight weeks.

I am afraid you are in a mess.

How big a mess depends on how many fish you have and how big they are.

The objective is to remove ALL fish and treat in QT for eight weeks and allow the DT to be fishless for the same duration.

It can be very hard.

The key is to remove the ammonia generated in QT during treatment, so the more fish and the bigger the fish the greater the task will be. If you do not have nitrification in QT, you may need to do high percentage of water change in QT up to daily.

If I were you (but I will never be in such a situation), I will ASAP setup a separate container to cycle a medium very well to handle all the ammonia generated by all the fish. A medium properly cycled will handle the ammonia from all fish of any size. It takes about three weeks to cycle using the dripping water method (wet-dry method). Other (totally submerged) method to cycle will take about two extra weeks.

You do WC for three weeks, not eight weeks. After the cycle is done, you transfer the cycled medium to QT.

You can think of a less ideal approach.

You may just treat obviously infested fish for just a few days in Qt to prevent imminent death, do daily WC, and wait for the cycle in a separate container to complete. You may have to repeat until your cycle is done and then you restart treatment to eradicate ich using the cycled medium in QT, for eight weeks.

You can also try to harvast or scounge for as much cycled medium from the DT to be used in the QT, but the limitation is that such cycled medium in DT cannot have growth of higher lives, as their die-off would polute the QT water.

Good luck.

biglurr54
11/16/2009, 06:36 PM
the reason i didnt qt the cb it because i dont have a qt tank. i had a large tank cycling and another display tank already established with existing fish and corals. nowi have some fish and coral infected in the big tank and the rest are in my small tank healthy and stressed due to overcrowding. i dont want to take the fish out of the big tank and put them in the clean tank and have two infected tanks. should i go get another tank or sterilite bin and use that as a qt and sacrifice some established live rock in the qt tank for cycling purposes and dose the new sterilite qt with medications and leave the main big tank sit for 8 weeks and leave everything in the 30 reef to just hang out for 8 weeks in good clean water and then slowly add to the main tank? what about clean up crews in the main tank? i just ordered some? should i cancel the order or would they be ok in the infested tank

wooden_reefer
11/16/2009, 06:45 PM
the reason i didnt qt the cb it because i dont have a qt tank.

This really is not a reason. QT is a TOP TOP TOP priority. This is like the tail wagging the dog. You DO NOT buy any fish until your QT is properly set up, that means with a biologiocal filter that is already very active before you buy any fish.

When you have a reef tank that is mostly stocked with both inverts and fish, an ich infestation is really a calamity.

Scounge for as much cycled medium in DT as possible to be used in QT. May be if your tank is just cycled there are no higher lives, such as worms, established, so may be some cycled medium in the DT can be transfered to QT. If you used copper in QT, any calcereous medium may not be used again in the reef DTas copper will be deposited on it. I think preventing death of fish may be a top prority now.

biglurr54
11/16/2009, 07:29 PM
the original plan was to turn the 30 gallon reef tank into the qt once all the original fish were back in the main tank but i never got that far. how about bio balls from my 30 reef's sump to use in the qt. i have quite a few and im gonna be breaking it all down to be a qt once i get this all cleaned up anyway. what will i need to have a successful qt tank as far as filtration size lighting water movement ect ect. something doesn't seem right about putting a large hippo tang in a tiny tank for 8 weeks.

sedor
11/16/2009, 07:38 PM
I'm not going to bash you for not QTing...nor will I disagree that using a QT tank is an unnecessary practice, because extra caution will always save you a lot of heartache and stress. That being said I don't QT, and I don't believe this is the thread to start a debate on whether or not to QT so I won't state any reasoning.

I do believe that your problem did not come from an infected fish. I am one of those crazy people that believes ich is ever present in our aquariums and is controlled by the health of our animals. My guess is the move in one way or another started up some sort of mini cycle and the fish couldn't handle the stress. You could get a hospital tank going and start treating with copper ASAP, but to be honest its probably to late. I'm surprised the tang hasn't come down with the disease yet because tangs are very prone to ich. This is just one of those things that happens sometimes. When ich makes itself present in my tank its always because something is disturbing the water quality...almost everytime I notice a white speck or two I will find nitrates stirring up. Ich generally shows itself when a fish is stressed and its immune system is down. Your best hope would be to cross your fingers and try to get your tank in order as best you can. Good luck.

Frank789
11/16/2009, 10:11 PM
Corals, inverts and live rock don't get ich (ick). If corals are not doing well check ammonia, etc.

Take out the fish, fresh water dip them, and place in a separate hospital tank without substrate. Use your cycled bio balls, and/or set up a sponge filter or bio wheel. Control any ammonia build up with ClorAM-X while your sponge filter or bio wheel is cycling. Use reef buffer to maintain pH, if needed.

Ich can be treated with quinine sulfate (Crypto-Pro from National Fish Pharmacy). Vacuum off the bottom of the hospital tank when you do water changes. That is where ich cysts settle before they divide and reinfect fish.

Hope this helps.

krowleey
11/16/2009, 11:04 PM
almost got it right, move fish into a QT bare bottom, with hiding places. (pvc or trinkets you can buy at your local petsmart) and use either hyposalinity (easiest on the fish) or copper with a test kit, and follow the directions exactly. have fresh made up saltwater on hand with a heater and powerhead in it. check PH morning and night. Do not use reef PH buffers to ajust the PH, instead use arm and hammer baking soda. You can place it on a cookie sheet and bake it for 30 minutes at 350 to get a more potent buffer. the only way you can truly cure ich is, hyposaliniy, copper and the tank transfer method. Reef safe meds DO NOT WORK, some people get fooled into this and later down the road when you add something, do a water change or a temp flux you are back at square one. Ich is not always present, it is introduced to your tank, and if you QT proper you will never have an issue with it. There is a wealth of information about this, it's proven with extensive research done with perfected techniques to eliminate this parasite. good luck to you.

Frank789
11/17/2009, 01:26 AM
My recent experience in successfully treating ich has led me to conclude that quinine sulfate is a more effective treatment than some of the alternatives.

I used the following treatments in succession, but they all failed: Metronizadole, hyposalinity, hyposalinity plus copper. After each treatment period, the ich got progressively worse. After copper failed, a 100% water change was made and quinine started. By this time, the fish were in very severe distress, which may have been made worse by the copper. Signs of recovery were evident within 24 hours of starting quinine. With all treatments except metronizadole, about 50% of the water was changed daily for the first 5 days of treatment. During the first 5-6 days of treatment with quinine, specific gravity was gradually brought up to about 1.020.

Hypo saline water (specific gravity <1.010) has very poor buffering capacity. Sodium bicarbonate can be used as a pH 8 buffer, but converting it to sodium carbonate may not be very safe for the fish in poorly buffered water. Sodium carbonate can raise the pH to 10 or more.

I haven't used it, but tank transfer method, if done correctly, could also work.

krowleey
11/17/2009, 05:28 AM
My recent experience in successfully treating ich has led me to conclude that quinine sulfate is a more effective treatment than some of the alternatives.

I used the following treatments in succession, but they all failed: Metronizadole, hyposalinity, hyposalinity plus copper. After each treatment period, the ich got progressively worse. After copper failed, a 100% water change was made and quinine started. By this time, the fish were in very severe distress, which may have been made worse by the copper. Signs of recovery were evident within 24 hours of starting quinine. With all treatments except metronizadole, about 50% of the water was changed daily for the first 5 days of treatment. During the first 5-6 days of treatment with quinine, specific gravity was gradually brought up to about 1.020.

Hypo saline water (specific gravity <1.010) has very poor buffering capacity. Sodium bicarbonate can be used as a pH 8 buffer, but converting it to sodium carbonate may not be very safe for the fish in poorly buffered water. Sodium carbonate can raise the pH to 10 or more.

I haven't used it, but tank transfer method, if done correctly, could also work.

sounds like you made mistakes which in return caused you to fail treatments. to start you can NOT do hyposaliniy and copper together, which tells me since you didnt kill your fish, your level of copper had to be extremely low in 1.010 water. hyposaline water increases the potency of copper medication. secondly, 1.0010 is not correct for hyposalinity to be effective against marine ich. the parasite can survive this, it has to be dropped to 1.008-1.009 and held there for 4 weeks after that last spot is seen. and sodium carbonate is very safe if used properly, start slow and test. You will find what works best for yourself on how much to add and mix. It's cheap effective and does not cause alk/PH problems that commercial buffers can cause.

wooden_reefer
11/17/2009, 11:18 AM
the original plan was to turn the 30 gallon reef tank into the qt once all the original fish were back in the main tank but i never got that far. how about bio balls from my 30 reef's sump to use in the qt. i have quite a few and im gonna be breaking it all down to be a qt once i get this all cleaned up anyway. what will i need to have a successful qt tank as far as filtration size lighting water movement ect ect. something doesn't seem right about putting a large hippo tang in a tiny tank for 8 weeks.

You can use any cycled medium in QT.

You always have the same consideration. If you take cycled medium from a tank that has livestock, you also have to care about the livestock in that tank.

You generally cannot create nitrification capacity instantly.

That said, a small percent removal of nitrification capacity in an established tank can be compensated by restricted feeding and making do.

Frank789
11/17/2009, 01:11 PM
sounds like you made mistakes which in return caused you to fail treatments. to start you can NOT do hyposaliniy and copper together, which tells me since you didnt kill your fish, your level of copper had to be extremely low in 1.010 water. hyposaline water increases the potency of copper medication. secondly, 1.0010 is not correct for hyposalinity to be effective against marine ich. the parasite can survive this, it has to be dropped to 1.008-1.009 and held there for 4 weeks after that last spot is seen. and sodium carbonate is very safe if used properly, start slow and test. You will find what works best for yourself on how much to add and mix. It's cheap effective and does not cause alk/PH problems that commercial buffers can cause.

inthesea
11/17/2009, 02:18 PM
Agree with sedor. Feed the fish good and hope it fights the ich off. You should have QT the CB, but thats past. I wouldnt take all the fish that was in a 120 and cramm it in a 30g. You are going to stress the fish more.

ssm05rsx
11/17/2009, 02:52 PM
Agree with sedor. Feed the fish good and hope it fights the ich off. You should have QT the CB, but thats past. I wouldnt take all the fish that was in a 120 and cramm it in a 30g. You are going to stress the fish more.

I constantly try to feed my fish with garlic and V. C all the time, one thing I just did was I started up another QT tank so now I have a 29 Gal and a 35Gal QT

Frank789
11/17/2009, 03:06 PM
sounds like you made mistakes which in return caused you to fail treatments. to start you can NOT do hyposaliniy and copper together, which tells me since you didnt kill your fish, your level of copper had to be extremely low in 1.010 water. hyposaline water increases the potency of copper medication. secondly, 1.0010 is not correct for hyposalinity to be effective against marine ich. the parasite can survive this, it has to be dropped to 1.008-1.009 and held there for 4 weeks after that last spot is seen. and sodium carbonate is very safe if used properly, start slow and test. You will find what works best for yourself on how much to add and mix. It's cheap effective and does not cause alk/PH problems that commercial buffers can cause.

Most likely cause for treatment failures was a resistant strain of Cryptocaryon irritans (ich). Copper is used at the same dosage in both fresh and salt water systems to treat ich, which would contradict your statement that copper cannot be used in hyposaline conditions. Your inference is that in such conditions copper is more toxic to marine fish. Are there published references to support that claim?

Published hyposalinity treatments generally are based on 1.009-1.010 specific gravity with caution about going any lower than that. My reference to hyposaline water (specific gravity <1.010 (by the way "<" means less than, not equal to)) related to its poor buffering capacity. I actually used a specific gravity of about 1.009 measured with a calibrated glass hydrometer at the calibration temperature. I successfully used hyposalinity in the past, but this time it didn't work and the ich became progressively worse during this treatment.

It's not clear why you would recommend sodium carbonate in a hyposaline system, which will have very little buffering capacity on its own. Sodium carbonate would likely act as a buffer in the pH 10-11 range. What you are doing is titrating what little buffering capacity remains in the hyposaline environment with sodium carbonate acting as a base. Sodium bicarbonate can actually provide buffering capacity in the pH 8 range and would be a safer bet.

Although quinine sulfate is more expensive than hyposalinity or copper treatments, it is much easier to use and effective against ich that is resistant to these old standbys. Additionally, the pH stability problems (additional stress factor) of hyposalinity and the need to constantly measure copper levels (which some fish can't tolerate at therapeutic dosages) are avoided.

A very good series of articles on treating Cryptocaryon irritans may be found on Reefkeeping here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php.

sfboarders
11/17/2009, 03:22 PM
Published hyposalinity treatments generally are based on 1.009-1.010 specific gravity with caution about going any lower than that. My reference to hyposaline water (specific gravity <1.010 (by the way "<" means less than, not equal to)) related to its poor buffering capacity. I actually used a specific gravity of about 1.009 measured with a calibrated glass hydrometer at the calibration temperature. I successfully used hyposalinity in the past, but this time it didn't work and the ich became progressively worse during this treatment.

I

Frank what's the lowest sg you can go before a fish is in danger? I've seen other articles/posts that say to go to 1.008.

wooden_reefer
11/17/2009, 03:35 PM
You can combine both ideas, although I won't

You can try to limit the spread now, boost immunity (IMO useless) and not treat any. Some fish will well die.

It would be very foolish for you now to not even plan for treating ALL the fish some time in the near future.

No matter what, start the cycle with a separate container NOW! It would be extremely foolish to not allow yourself the possibility to treat all fish some time in the future.

Cycling this way is VERY VERY VERY easy.

Doing so is also a valuable experience for future QT success. This time all or most of your fish may well die. Better luck next time.

biglurr54
11/17/2009, 04:09 PM
all my levels are fine. i have checked them and i brought my water to a lfs and they checked them and they were all fine. no ammonia no nitrite and no nitrate. the only thing i could possibly see it coming from is when i partitioned off my sump. i used GE silicon II it is 100% silicon for windows doors and attic. as soon as i had water flowing through the sump i started noticing a decrease in the health of the corals and fish. the silicon had a full 4 days to cure. any ideas?

Frank789
11/17/2009, 04:11 PM
Frank what's the lowest sg you can go before a fish is in danger? I've seen other articles/posts that say to go to 1.008.

Risk to the fish is a function both of the lowered specific gravity and time at that lower salinity. The excerpts below support 1.009 as the lower limit. You could probably go lower with careful monitoring of the fish. The first article suggests there is risk of kidney failure over time. An important question is at what salinity can the Cryptocaryon no longer survive, and is there a need to go much lower than that?

From: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

Treatment Option 4 - Hyposalinity:

Low salinity has been demonstrated to be an effective treatment against Cryptocaryon irritans (Noga, 2000). A salt level of 16 ppt or approximately 1.009-1.010 specific gravity at 78-80*F for 14 days was reported to kill the parasite. I have never experienced problems when placing fish into a hyposalinity treatment, but have routinely witnessed fish showing obvious signs of distress when brought back to normal salinity levels too quickly. For that reason, I try to limit the specific gravity increase 0.001-0.002 points per day.

One of the alleged benefits of this treatment is the resulting conservation of energy for the affected fish. Reef fish have to constantly drink saltwater and excrete the salt to maintain the proper osmotic balance. Lowering the salinity of the surrounding environment eases this energy demand on the sick fish, thereby allowing them to expend more energy towards fighting the infection (Kollman, 1998 and Bartelme, 2001). On the contrary, keeping fish in low salinity means that they don't "flush" their kidneys sufficiently. After long-term exposure, this can cause kidney failure and kill the fish (Shimek, pers. comm..)

and from: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm

A) Hyposalinity, lowered specific gravity. Some advocates place lower spg. as low as 1.009. This can work if your fishes are not too challenged already or the pathogen too virulent, however it will not effect a permanent system cure. Know that most common measures of specific gravity are temperature specific and that most non-fish livestock will not tolerate the lower limit (14-16 ppt salinity) necessary to kill off the parasites. Therefore your fishes will have to be separated from your non-fish livestock if you're using hyposalinity as a treatment mode. And there are exceptions, variations to consider using hyposalinity. Cartilaginous fishes (sharks, rays) cannot be treated in this fashion... and such osmotic changes need to be made gradually (over days).

wooden_reefer
11/17/2009, 04:22 PM
all my levels are fine. i have checked them and i brought my water to a lfs and they checked them and they were all fine. no ammonia no nitrite and no nitrate. the only thing i could possibly see it coming from is when i partitioned off my sump. i used GE silicon II it is 100% silicon for windows doors and attic. as soon as i had water flowing through the sump i started noticing a decrease in the health of the corals and fish. the silicon had a full 4 days to cure. any ideas?

I am talking about treating ALL surviving fish in a QT.

Do you have existing cycled medium in QT to rid the QT water of ammonia. If not, you will have to change water often.

The basic idea is that eradication of ich is necessary.

Eradication of ich takes eight weeks of active treatment for fish and eight weeks of fishlessness in DT.

You cycle a medium in a separate container now so you can transfer it to the QT for comprehensive ich eradication.

I strongly believe that immunity is useless once ich has broken out. There is constant re-infestation within the tank. This is the idea. You will decide if you can use immunity against ich.

I think the whole idea of immunity against ich in the confinement of a tank, especially once ich has broken out, is fanciful. The whole concept is unreliable.

I always eradicate ich by QT.

krowleey
11/17/2009, 06:09 PM
Risk to the fish is a function both of the lowered specific gravity and time at that lower salinity. The excerpts below support 1.009 as the lower limit. You could probably go lower with careful monitoring of the fish. The first article suggests there is risk of kidney failure over time. An important question is at what salinity can the Cryptocaryon no longer survive, and is there a need to go much lower than that?

From: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

Treatment Option 4 - Hyposalinity:

Low salinity has been demonstrated to be an effective treatment against Cryptocaryon irritans (Noga, 2000). A salt level of 16 ppt or approximately 1.009-1.010 specific gravity at 78-80*F for 14 days was reported to kill the parasite. I have never experienced problems when placing fish into a hyposalinity treatment, but have routinely witnessed fish showing obvious signs of distress when brought back to normal salinity levels too quickly. For that reason, I try to limit the specific gravity increase 0.001-0.002 points per day.

One of the alleged benefits of this treatment is the resulting conservation of energy for the affected fish. Reef fish have to constantly drink saltwater and excrete the salt to maintain the proper osmotic balance. Lowering the salinity of the surrounding environment eases this energy demand on the sick fish, thereby allowing them to expend more energy towards fighting the infection (Kollman, 1998 and Bartelme, 2001). On the contrary, keeping fish in low salinity means that they don't "flush" their kidneys sufficiently. After long-term exposure, this can cause kidney failure and kill the fish (Shimek, pers. comm..)

and from: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm

A) Hyposalinity, lowered specific gravity. Some advocates place lower spg. as low as 1.009. This can work if your fishes are not too challenged already or the pathogen too virulent, however it will not effect a permanent system cure. Know that most common measures of specific gravity are temperature specific and that most non-fish livestock will not tolerate the lower limit (14-16 ppt salinity) necessary to kill off the parasites. Therefore your fishes will have to be separated from your non-fish livestock if you're using hyposalinity as a treatment mode. And there are exceptions, variations to consider using hyposalinity. Cartilaginous fishes (sharks, rays) cannot be treated in this fashion... and such osmotic changes need to be made gradually (over days).



As you might expect from its name, hyposalinity or osmotic shock therapy (OST) is a method of disease treatment that simply involves maintaining a marine aquarium at a much lower salinity than normal. For fish only systems, a salinity of 11 ppt (1.008 SG) is recommended for best results (Lowry 2004) when treating protozoan parasites. In aquaria housing delicate invertebrates, such as reef systems, a modified form of OST that uses a somewhat higher salinity around 22-23 ppt (1.017 SG) is often employed to control outbreaks of parasites (Thiel 2003). In general, the salinity most often used for OST and cited in the literature is 16 ppt or a specific gravity of 1.012 (Lowry 2004), which is a good compromise for most systems.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I4/hyposalinity/OST.htm

Do not hesitate to maintain the hyposalinity for the entire treatment period. OST needs to maintained for at least 3 weeks in order to assure that all of the encysted parasites have reached the free-swimming stage of their life cycle and been killed. A 6 week treatment period even more effective and is the recommended treatment protocol. For example, the Oklahoma Aquarium routinely quarantines all of their marine display fish (i.e., teleosts) at a salinity of 11 ppt (1.008 SG) for 30-45 days (Lowry 2004).

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I4/hyposalinity/OST.htm

thats just a start, while 1.010 may work for some strains, 1.008 -1.009 will work 100% of the time. there is no evidence of any hyposalinity resistant strains of marine ich i have ever heard of and i looked all over the place on the net. and using copper with hyposalinity is asking for trouble, so i am having doubts about your hydrometer accuracy. It seems people that have had hypo fail for them, missed a step or tried to make their own steps for the process instead of using the basic formula that works.