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rale2001
11/20/2009, 07:37 PM
I got a pair of pec clowns at the LFS on reserve. So I go to pick them up and their like they won't sell em to me after I told them all my levels was good but my ph was 7.8. Should I really wait and try to raise it before I bring em home and stop being stubborn or should I go back up there and get my clowns??

nikon187
11/20/2009, 07:41 PM
7.8 is a little low.. when did you check the levels? PH is usually lower in the morning and goes up after the lights come on

rale2001
11/20/2009, 07:54 PM
Its been the same for three weeks I been using kent superbuffin for 2 weeks it hasn't changed so they sold me some seachem marine buffer and said come and get them next week. I was mad tho, I just wanted yalls opinions.

aquasport24
11/20/2009, 07:57 PM
Fishes are usually more forgiving w/ low ph than corals esp. SPS. Make sure yours and LFS water's ph are match.

bertoni
11/20/2009, 08:00 PM
7.8 isn't low enough to harm corals or fish. The Marine Buffer product shouldn't be used in a reef tank as it contains a lot of borate. If you are keeping corals, I'd recommend returning or ditching it. SeaChem "Marine" products are designed for fish-only systems.

Buffers generally don't work for pH problems. The cause of pH problems always is high carbon dioxide, assuming the alkalinity level in the system is okay.

Korrine
11/20/2009, 08:02 PM
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php


What is the Acceptable pH Range for Reef Aquaria?

The acceptable pH range for reef aquaria is an opinion rather than a clearly defined fact, and will certainly vary based on who is providing the opinion. This range may also be quite different from the "optimal" range. Justifying what is optimal, however, is much more problematic than that which is simply acceptable. As a goal, I'd suggest that the pH of natural seawater, about 8.2, is appropriate, but reef aquaria can clearly operate in a wider range of pH values. In my opinion, the pH range from 7.8 to 8.5 is an acceptable range for reef aquaria, with several caveats. These are:

That the alkalinity is at least 2.5 meq/L, and preferably higher at the lower end of this pH range. This statement is based partly on the fact that many reef aquaria operate quite effectively in the pH 7.8 to 8.0 range, but that most of the best examples of these types of tanks incorporate calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactors that, while tending to lower the pH, keep the carbonate alkalinity fairly high (at or above 3 meq/L.). In this case, any problems associated with calcification at these lower pH values (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/chem.htm) may be offset by the higher alkalinity. Low pH primarily stresses calcifying organisms by making it harder for them to obtain sufficient carbonate to deposit skeletons. Raising the alkalinity mitigates this difficulty for reasons that are detailed later in this article.
That the calcium level is at least 400 ppm. Calcification becomes more difficult as the pH is lowered, and it also becomes more difficult as the calcium level is lowered (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/chem.htm). It would not be desirable to push all of the extremes of pH, alkalinity, and calcium at the same time. So if the pH is on the low side and cannot be easily changed (such as in an aquarium with a CaCO3/CO2 reactor), at least make sure that the calcium level is acceptable (~400-450 ppm). Likewise, one of the problems at higher pH (above 8.2, but getting progressively more problematic with each incremental rise) is the abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate, resulting in a drop in calcium and alkalinity, and the clogging of heaters and pump impellers. If the aquarium pH is 8.4 or higher (as often happens in a tank using limewater), then it is especially important that both the calcium and alkalinity levels are suitably maintained (that is, neither too low, inhibiting biological calcification, nor too high, causing excessive abiotic precipitation on equipment).

Korrine
11/20/2009, 08:03 PM
The first step in solving a low pH problem is to determine why it exists in the first place. Some possibilities include:

A calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactor (CaCO3/CO2 reactor) is in use on the aquarium.
The aquarium has low alkalinity.
The aquarium has more CO2 in it than the surrounding air due to inadequate aeration. Don't be fooled into thinking that an aquarium must have adequate aeration because its water is very turbulent. Equilibrating carbon dioxide is MUCH harder than simply providing adequate oxygen. There would be NO change in the pH between day and night if equilibration of carbon dioxide were perfect. Since most aquaria have lower pH during the night, they also are demonstrating less than complete aeration.
The aquarium has excess CO2 in it because the air in the home that it is being equilibrated with contains excess CO2.
The aquarium is still cycling, and has excess acid being produced from the nitrogen cycle and degradation of organics to CO2.

Korrine
11/20/2009, 08:04 PM
Read that article it's a fabulous one from Randy Holm'es Farley :)

Aquarist007
11/20/2009, 08:11 PM
Your pH level is affected by the carbon dioxide level in your tank. Quite often opening a window in the fish room, increasing the flow in the display tank, and removing any glass tops on the tank will help with the pH
At this point in your tank the water chemistry is still trying to stabilize. IMO you should not be adding buffer and any chemicals at this point.
Have you performed a water change yet. 20 per cent every other week will go along way to stabilize the water chemistry.
That said I agree that the level of pH in your tank will not affect the addition of clowns
However at this early point they might still cause a spike in ammonia as it is really early still to be adding fish.
IMO get a hold of some Seachem Prime and use it every time you add fish. Its an ammonia and nitrate blocker so if the bacteria have not cycled enough for the new bioload they will be protected.

rale2001
11/20/2009, 08:13 PM
I think my clowns would have been fine I don't have reef I gotta wait to afford fancy lighting. Maybe I should wait a week I don't think the seachem will make a difference then the kent will but I guess well see

DC_40gallon
11/20/2009, 08:27 PM
Sounds like Petco to me, did you buy them at Petco? They are hawks at Petco, they ask you these interrogating questions and then it seems that no matter how you answer them, they say, "You don't need this" or "you better hold off".

I often wonder if they ever want to sell fish there lol

rale2001
11/20/2009, 08:27 PM
capn_hylinur I've had the tank for 2 mons now so my levels are fine and still got the damsels and the 6 hermit crabs in there that cycled it. So my chems should be fine its just the ph I never got up to 8.0 I took my splash guard off yesterday so I'm lettin the tank air out I read that article also. I just wanted to kno if I should have bought home my clowns or not listening to the lfs.

bertoni
11/20/2009, 08:31 PM
The pH would have been fine for the clowns.

rale2001
11/20/2009, 08:37 PM
Then the lfs said the only reason the damsels are fine and having fun because they are cheap hardy fish the clowns just wouldn't survive no not petco our petco only have fresh and brackish.

bertoni
11/20/2009, 09:07 PM
They have good intentions, I guess, but they aren't very knowledgeable.

Aquarist007
11/20/2009, 10:49 PM
Then the lfs said the only reason the damsels are fine and having fun because they are cheap hardy fish the clowns just wouldn't survive no not petco our petco only have fresh and brackish.

I am in no way criticizing you but I really dislike the attitude that because damsels are cheap and hardy fish then it is okay to cycle a tank with them and possible expose them to torture by ammonia poisoning. Being a reefer and in the business now I will go to extremes to save a fish--any fish.

One of the "preferred" ways on here to cycle a tank is by letting the curing of the live rock do it. There is ample detrius and dead stuff on good quality live rock to cycle the tank---no need to add live stuff to it and put them through stressful situations.

Damsels get a negative wrap because in a mixed reef tank they can be a pain in the butt. I have set up tanks that contain only damsels---with the different colours they can be beautiful. Certainly a fish to respect like we do the others.

To put into perspective when I suggested using Seachem Prime it is only as a precaution to give the bacteria in a newly cycled tank chance to cycle again to the bioload that you add.
This by the way is a constant process over the life of your tank.The bacteria on and in the live rock only maintain their levels to combat the existing bioload in your tank. Once you add a new bioload then the process begins again.

Again this is not against you and I applaud you for seeking advice on this site

Aquarist007
11/20/2009, 10:51 PM
They have good intentions, I guess, but they aren't very knowledgeable.

always the epitome of tact and diplomacy:)

rale2001
11/20/2009, 11:13 PM
I think u got the wrong idea I wasn't being defensive just a quick history on the tank bc I do want my fish to be healthy and thank u for ur input I'm so new at this. I'm gonna invest in the product u suggested I got zero ammonia nitrite and nitrates its just my ph is 7.8 and buffer won't do the trick and its been 2 mons now.

Aquarist007
11/20/2009, 11:20 PM
I think u got the wrong idea I wasn't being defensive just a quick history on the tank bc I do want my fish to be healthy and thank u for ur input I'm so new at this. I'm gonna invest in the product u suggested I got zero ammonia nitrite and nitrates its just my ph is 7.8 and buffer won't do the trick and its been 2 mons now.

I never thought that at all---just trying to help you get off on the right foot identifying some of the misconcepts that we all seem to gain before joining this site.:)
You might also consider taking out the damsels while you can. Avoid problems down the road with your other fish.