Tips on maintaining high pH (8.5- 8.6)

[redfishsc]

I have a system with about 45g total.

I'd like to try to raise my pH to around 8.5-8.6 to combat some algae outbreaks, particularly this freakin bryopsis that now won't die when hit with Tech M.


I know that dripping kalk will help keep pH up. I have made drip units before that slowly dribbled 1g of top-off water into the tank, but they foul up very easily and always vary in their drip rate (as they clog). Was using an airline valve as my drip valve

I'm looking for a more stable, reliable way (preferably DIY) to dose kalk.


Also, any other way to maintain high pH would be appreciated. I skim heavily, run a refugium 24/7, etc... and my pH stays around 8.0.



Someone please suggest an accurate, READABLE pH kit. I don't trust my API kit, so it's probably time for a new one.


For those who will mention nutrient control, my nitrates have always been 0.0 on the Salifert, and phosphate is lower than the Seachem kit can detect (supposedly down to 0.05ppm).

Currently I'm dosing glucose and vitamin C (1/4 tsp/day glucose, 1/4tsp 2X for VC) and skimming wet. I'm producing a half gallon of tea-colored skimmate per week.

Feeding very lightly---- I feed a total of 3-4 cubes of mysis per WEEK and 5 or 6 small silversides.

[bertoni]

I use a pH meter, not a kit. I think they're easier to use and more flexible. Beyond kalk, the only other idea might be one of the carbon dioxide scrubbers people are trying. I don't know how much that'd cost, though. A large, well-lit refugium might help some, too.

I wouldn't call that feeding rate "light", assuming the mysid cubes I've seen. Maybe moderate to something on the heavy side.

[redfishsc]

The cubes are the Hikari mysis, about 3/4" square, or smaller. So you think that's moderate to heavy--- 3-4 cubes per week plus the silversides? hmm, maybe I should rethink this. This is only feeding the fish, I seldom target feed any corals anymore (except the red goni, which I forgot to mention, but it just gets a couple shots twice a week if I think about it).



I'll consider the pH meter. Is the PinPoint a good one, or would one of the pocket-style meters be fine? I'd rather not have to mess with something that will cost me $50-100/year in new/replacement probes if possible, not to mention calibrating fluids etc....

[plankton]

If you truely have bryopsis I feel for you. I battled it for more than 1 year in my previous tank and never could get rid of it. I finally took the LR out and let them soak in the sun out in the backyard for months...that finally killed it.

As Bertoni mentioned a digital pH meter would be what you need.

Definitely look at nutrients again and maybe try some Ferric Oxide to starve the algae of phosphates and turning off your lights for enough time to weaken/kill the algae.

I hate bryopsis ...

Scott

[Flipper62]

For those who will mention nutrient control, my nitrates have always been 0.0 on the Salifert, and phosphate is lower than the Seachem kit can detect (supposedly down to 0.05ppm).
.

You can have Algae & still have very low readings when you do a Nitrate test. This is because the Algae is using the nitrates to feed and grow.

Also the API & Salifert kits along with the rest are good for reading higher readings of nitrates.....ect. But not real good on reading low levels.

[tmz]

I like th pinpoint monitor and with occasionaly cleaning the probes can last over a year. If you are going to run ph on the high side it might be worth it to you for ease of use. Higher alk seems to slow bryopsis too.

As for kalk dosing , I use a brtue can as a still reservoir with a dosing pump. When I used a bucket with a plastic airline valve occasional rinsing in vinegar kept it clear. Also keep the drip line about 3 or 4 inches above the water. It will clog quickly in the water.

[evsalty]

Does your tank and sump have a good fresh air source? Do you ever vent the room that the tank is in? Without venting the room co2 levels can rise and this will then cause ph to remain low.

[redfishsc]

You can have Algae & still have very low readings when you do a Nitrate test. This is because the Algae is using the nitrates to feed and grow.

Also the API & Salifert kits along with the rest are good for reading higher readings of nitrates.....ect. But not real good on reading low levels.

No doubt about that, but I don't have enough algae to be doing all the work. I have probably 100X more algae in my refugium than I do my display tank, plus I dose carbon, so you would think that the small amount of bryopsis in my tank would be out-competed....... but it isn't, lol. At a glance my tank doesn't appear to have that much algae, but where I do have it, it's bryopsis. Hair algae and other forms of pest algae have all but disappeared. Also, the nitrate was 0 before the bryopsis started appearing. I suspect phosphate is more of a limiting factor with bryopsis than nitrate, although I can't say that with any level of authority.


You say that Salifert is a high range kit. It measures down to 0.2ppm, I don't know of a kit that does much lower than that. I'm not sure why you'd call that high-range like the API.


Does your tank and sump have a good fresh air source? Do you ever vent the room that the tank is in? Without venting the room co2 levels can rise and this will then cause ph to remain low.

This is a good point and one I haven't fully tested yet. Once I get a better pH kit, I'll find out where my tank actually stands for pH, and then I'll test it by setting a glass of water outside for a while with an airstone and see what happens. We only have two adults and a 1 year old in our apartment, so I don't suspect the CO2 in the house to be that big of a concern.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not now if high pH helps with bryopsis, but if you really want to maintain the pH that high and cannot using substantial amounts of limewater (say, 3-4% of the tank volume daily), about the only options I think might work are:

1. More lime via slurry of lime and fresh water manually added. This really blasts pH up.

2. Limewater and reduced aeration. Like maybe shutting off a skimmer, etc. I probably wouldn't want to resort to that, but it should work.

[scribble]

Randy,

Can you explain the lime water and reduced aeration?

[luther1200]

What do you think raising the pH to that level will do for you? Not trying to be rude, I just never heard of this and I am interested.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you explain the lime water and reduced aeration?

Adding limewater adds hydroxide ion, which raises pH and converts bicarbonate to carbonate

HCO3- + OH- ---> H2O + CO3--

The thing that offsets that pH rise is the entry of CO2 into the tank:

CO2 + OH- --> HCO3-

So if you block the entry of CO2, the pH will stay higher.

I show that here:

The Relationship Between Alkalinity and pH.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm


adding the equivalent of 0.5 meq/L (1.4 dKH) of alkalinity with hydroxide boosted the pH from pH 8.10 to pH 8.76. Then allowing CO2 to enter dropped it back to pH 8.33 :)

[redfishsc]

Thanks for the tip Randy,


What do you think raising the pH to that level will do for you? Not trying to be rude, I just never heard of this and I am interested.

Keeping a high pH has been shown (by hobbyists) to have a detrimental effect on bryopsis and other pest algaes. Probably on macroalgae like caulerpa and chaeto also, but seemingly to a lesser extent.

[tmz]

When my alkalinity ran in the teens,bryopsis disappeared . Since I've gone with lower alkalinity sub 10dkh ,small bryopsis patches have largely replaced the small fine hair algae patches. Ph has been pretty constant at 8.2 to 8.3 though. Just an anecdotal observation. I have very little nusiance algae overall and run relatively low nutrients, PO4 .05ppm, NO3 <5ppm.

[redfishsc]

My alk is at 10 right now, was at 12, but I'm letting it slowly drop. I have some SPS growth in the tank, but not a lot. I've considered raising it, as you're not the first person to suggest this to me.


The reason I don't is because of dosing Vitamin C and glucose. I am afraid that the high alkalinity and carbon dosing will result in "burnt tips" as is often found when dosing vodka.

[tmz]

I'm not suggesting it it just sharing an observation. Adding kalk will raise alkalinity too. If you are maintaining low nutrients and carbon dosing I would not advise raising alkalinity and don't know how you could raise it as high as you want without raisng alkalinity. Limiting the PO4 should eventualy limit the bryopsis.

[redfishsc]

That's what I'm hoping. It's spreading in the tank, but not spreading quickly.

I am hoping it will "cycle off". I am doing everything I can to inhibit this stuff (the occasional "lights off" for a couple days also) and read a statement by Anthony Calfo that high pH for several weeks can kill it. So I figure it's at least worth a try.

[tmz]

Yes but getting the very high ph you noted includes high alkalinity in a practical sense. I'm not sure which ph or alkalinity effects it ,if either does ,setting aside my anecdotal observations. But high spikey alkalinity may hurt corals.

[jbird69]

Are you running a high quality GFO in your system?

[tmz]

Are you running a high quality GFO in your system? For the 550gallon system , I run about 600grams of HC gfo from Bulk Reef Supply and change it monthly. I also run granulated activated carbon, skim well , have chaeto refugia and dose relatively low /moderate amounts of vodka and vinegar.

[jbird69]

Sorry Tom, I should have specified. My question was for redfishsc. I thought I remembered an earlier thread where he was considering running gfo for bryopsis. Just wondering if he put some into action.

[redfishsc]

Are you running a high quality GFO in your system?

Not yet, jbird. I'm trying the cheaper options at the moment. So far I've kept the bryo from an all-out coup d'état.


I have the phosphate below detectable levels (seachem kit, not sure what that's worth) already, and I don't have a GFO reactor, nor really room to plumb one in at the moment. I have the glass to make a slightly larger sump than I currently have, but it will have to be cut and assembled to fit the dimension (16"X16"X13"). Possibly then I can add a GFO reactor (no room for an external reactor either--- you'd have to see my setup for this to make sense).

For a system with already-low phosphates, how much GFO (brs brand, normal variety) would you guys suggest?

[Runfrumu]

Using prodibio, a phos-ban reactor, manually removing the bryopsis and blowing detritus off the rocks and letting the skimmer get it at least once a week did in my bryopsis. Been free of it for around 6 months now.

[redfishsc]

Thanks runfrumu, good advice.

I've started blowing off the rocks recently, it seems to help.




I just tested my phosphate with the Seachem kit and it's at 0.05 or less (supposedly).