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blennielove
12/02/2009, 08:02 PM
Greetings to all at Reef Central!
Recently I had an ich outbreak in my 225 gallon reef tank. My Powder Blue Tang got the first signs, then my Atlantic Tang, Kole Tang, Flame Angel, Filament Wrasse, Cleaner Wrasse, Lubbock's Wrasse, Clown Fairy Wrasse, and two Neon Gobies.
I wasted time by attempting to treat with "REEF SAFE" products: Ich Attack, Herbtana, Kick Ich. There were all REEF SAFE. I can't say they killed ich because my fish still had them, but I cannot say that they did not help them completely as they did not decline in health until after two weeks. But this delay caused the lives of the Kole Tang and two Neon Gobies, my Filament wrasse dove into the sand and has not been out since.
So, on Thanksgiving night I enjoyed moving 260 pounds of live rock and corals out of my tank to catch the fishes. PBT, AT, KT, FA, CW, LW, CFW are currently doing much better in a 55 gallon hospital tank. PBT and AT were treated with a pH and temperature matched fresh water dip prior to entering the hospital tank.
I then treated with hyposalinity that was dropped over 3 days to 1.009 and then raised over 3 days to 1.020. (Yeah - they did not stay at 1.009 for more than 36 hours as I decided to treat with the Quinine and I needed to bring salinity back up.)
Tonight is day 1 of Quinine Phosphate treatment.
I dosed at 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons. I recommend that you mix this medication in some tank water prior to putting it in the tank - it sort of clumped up when put directly in the tank but it is slowly dissolving.
I contacted National Fish Pharmacy due to conflicting information regarding dosing schedule. Dr. Aukes there recommended to do ONE treatment and let the medication sit in there without a water change for seven days. Then a 50 percent water change at the end of seven days.
Make sure that UV, protein skimmer are turned OFF.
Remove all carbon, Purigen, etc.
Since giving medications, all fishes are looking fine without any signs of additional stress. They are actively eating (by the way - Nat'l Fish Pharm recommends that you DO NOT FEED during treatment to keep water parameters in acceptable range.) I will be feeding some because I think it is good that they eat but will be monitoring parameters closely and will use water that I'm made up especially with the purpose of changing water if needed. (20 gallon tank with SG 1.023 and 1/2 teaspoon of Quinine premade on the same date - this way, I believe that the medications will have the same effectiveness with it's half life.)
I had read at WWM.com that light should be turned off. Dr. Aukes explained that only UV light would affect the medication. Lights will be on regular timer for 14 hour cycles.
I'm excited to be sharing this!
If anyone else has experience with Quinine Sulphate, please chime in!:bounce3:

sfboarders
12/02/2009, 08:23 PM
Thanks blennie for logging your quinine treatment. Do you know if you can use Amquel + or Prime to control ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate? Does your fish still have ich spots before treatment began? Also did you order the Quinine Sulphate or the retail Crypto Pro stuff?

So after 7 days and you still see signs of ich do you go with the 3 x / 9 day treatment?

blennielove
12/02/2009, 08:39 PM
I'm not sure if you can use Amquel + or Prime to control ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate. I didn't ask NationalFishPharmacy because I don't normally use products like these. I will give them a call tomorrow and ask them.

They tell me NOT TO FEED fishes during treatment to keep parameters in check.

My fishes were looking much improved before starting the quinine treatment, but I can't see ich too well with the lighting in the hospital tank if they are still there. Behaviorally, though, my Atlantic Blue Tang has been doing a lot of scratching, so I believe it is still there but just LESS.

I ordered Quinine Sulphate from NationalFishPharmacy.com and had them overnight it. They are very nice people there!

I'll keep you updated. I'm hoping and praying that all will be cleared after 7 days, but I think I would have to wait at least 2 weeks before I see re-infection if any.

RBU1
12/03/2009, 03:39 AM
They tell you not to feed for a reason......Chloriquine will totaly destroy the bacteria in your system that breaks down ammonia and nitrite both deadly to fish. I would follow the instructions exactly how they tell you or you might be doing more harm then good to your fish.

I don't like that treatment because there is no way to test how much is in your system and it kills your biological filtration. Make sure if your fish make it thru the treatment you remove it and monitor the fish in the QT after the chloriquine has been removed for a week or so.

blennielove
12/03/2009, 06:08 AM
They tell you not to feed for a reason......Chloriquine will totaly destroy the bacteria in your system that breaks down ammonia and nitrite both deadly to fish. I would follow the instructions exactly how they tell you or you might be doing more harm then good to your fish.

I don't like that treatment because there is no way to test how much is in your system and it kills your biological filtration. Make sure if your fish make it thru the treatment you remove it and monitor the fish in the QT after the chloriquine has been removed for a week or so.

The treatment is in my bare bottom hospital tank. I don't believe there is much if any biological filtration there to be concerned about.

I'm not sure that quinine sulphate would "destroy" the bacteria because quinine is used for parasites, specifically protozoans such as Cryptocaryon irritans and the malaria causing Plasmodium.

Stuart60611
12/03/2009, 09:10 AM
From personal experience, it definitely takes out your biological filter.

RBU1
12/03/2009, 09:26 AM
The treatment is in my bare bottom hospital tank. I don't believe there is much if any biological filtration there to be concerned about.

I'm not sure that quinine sulphate would "destroy" the bacteria because quinine is used for parasites, specifically protozoans such as Cryptocaryon irritans and the malaria causing Plasmodium.


Bare bottom does not matter....What are you using as filtration? Whatever it is the chloriquine is going to destroy it. When the biological filtration is destroyed you have nothing to convert ammonia to nitrites and from nitrites to nitrates. Ammonia and nitrites are both deadly to fish.

Kieth71
12/03/2009, 12:09 PM
I have used it on several occasions now and have never had any problems with my filtration.I feed as much as they will eat and i change water only once a week.I use a 55g qt witrh barebottom and pvc.My filtration is an aquaclear 70 and i also have a powerhead.

RBU1
12/03/2009, 12:26 PM
I have used it on several occasions now and have never had any problems with my filtration.I feed as much as they will eat and i change water only once a week.I use a 55g qt witrh barebottom and pvc.My filtration is an aquaclear 70 and i also have a powerhead.


Do you test for ammonia?

blennielove
12/03/2009, 01:03 PM
Bare bottom does not matter....What are you using as filtration? Whatever it is the chloriquine is going to destroy it. When the biological filtration is destroyed you have nothing to convert ammonia to nitrites and from nitrites to nitrates. Ammonia and nitrites are both deadly to fish.

I'm using a sponge filter run by power head in one corner, Magnum 350 with micron filter in another, and a Penguin 400(?) in another.
There is NO biological filtration here!
Waste will change to ammonia and I will take it down by doing a partial water change...

blennielove
12/03/2009, 01:11 PM
Up date on 18 hours after starting Quinine Sulphate:

To believe my fishes were "better" prior to quinine - I was so wrong! Today, I can see all these spots from where the fishes were scratching and were the ich were buried in the fishes skin. I think that either this is the second hatching/eruption of ich OR that the quinine made them pop off and so now I see where the ich were.

The fishes are still behaving well, the PBtang is a little shy today because I think he had the MOST ich and the Atlantic Blue Tang is eating the best today in a long while.

Thanks to Keith for your input and I feel more hopeful to hear that you've also used quinine before. Would you please share how you dosed it and how long your treatment periods were?

RBU1
12/03/2009, 01:17 PM
I'm using a sponge filter run by power head in one corner, Magnum 350 with micron filter in another, and a Penguin 400(?) in another.
There is NO biological filtration here!
Waste will change to ammonia and I will take it down by doing a partial water change...

Oh boy....Good Luck....Odds are you are going to kill your fish with amonnia and Nitrites.

But I wish you luck. Hope your doing water changes daily at least.

Kieth71
12/03/2009, 01:41 PM
I dosed the tank left for 3 days..on the 4th i change 20g and redose.I do this 4 times then change water and run carbon,The instructions say not to treat for more then 13 days so i take it to about the max.If i was running a smaller qt like 10-20g i would prob do water changes daily and redose daily.I always keep an ammonia badge on my qt tanks and am quite successful in my qt regime.The only thing i done like about quinine sulfate is that i cant dose prazipro at the same time like i can with cupramine.

sfboarders
12/03/2009, 01:42 PM
Were you able to contact fish pharmacy to see if you can use Amquel + or Prime?

blennielove
12/03/2009, 01:54 PM
Oh boy....Good Luck....Odds are you are going to kill your fish with amonnia and Nitrites.

But I wish you luck. Hope your doing water changes daily at least.

You know, when I started this thread, I expected to hear of people's opinions and experiences. You obviously did not read my first opening post about my plans for water changes and watching parameters. I appreciate your concerns for my ammonia and nitrites but please let me take care of that. I would appreciate you not "cursing" my fishes with death.
If you would like to suggest ways of resolving the ammonia and nitrite issues, I'm sure I and many people reading would appreciate that but if you are just going to comment about ammonia and nitrite issues, I'm sure there are threads specifically discussing ammonia and nitrites.

blennielove
12/03/2009, 01:59 PM
Were you able to contact fish pharmacy to see if you can use Amquel + or Prime?

I just spoke with them and they said yes. You can use quinine with Amquel + or Prime.

I personally have never used these products but now I know that they can be used, I'll look into it.

blennielove
12/03/2009, 02:04 PM
I dosed the tank left for 3 days..on the 4th i change 20g and redose.I do this 4 times then change water and run carbon,The instructions say not to treat for more then 13 days so i take it to about the max.If i was running a smaller qt like 10-20g i would prob do water changes daily and redose daily.I always keep an ammonia badge on my qt tanks and am quite successful in my qt regime.The only thing i done like about quinine sulfate is that i cant dose prazipro at the same time like i can with cupramine.

I noticed that you use quinine for QT? I was just thinking about this for future fish acclimation procedure. Where did you get the ammonia badge? I didn't know there was such a thing! :)
Do you then follow with a prazipro treatment or do you do it prior to quinine?
How long is your QT procedure, I've read anywhere from 2 weeks to 8 weeks - yikes!

sfboarders
12/03/2009, 02:17 PM
I noticed that you use quinine for QT? I was just thinking about this for future fish acclimation procedure. Where did you get the ammonia badge?

Seachem Ammonia Alert (http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/AmmoniaAlert.html) is what you need. I have 2 of them for each of my QT tanks. It measures the free ammonia. You should be able to find it at your LFS but for sure online. I think it's a must for QT.

RBU1
12/03/2009, 02:49 PM
You seem to know everything about the treatment you are performing so my suggestions are not needed. Like I said i wish you the best of luck.....

Copper does not "destroy" your biological filtration and it treats parasites.

As I mentioned earlier chloriquine is not a treatment that is real popular on the threads. It can't be tested and requires ridiculous water changes to control amonnia.

You should set up a QT just like you would any other tank. Letting bacteria establish so you don't have amonnia problems. You can do that by leaving a filter media in your main tank that can be transfered over.

Kieth71
12/03/2009, 03:49 PM
I always treat with prazipro so when useing quinine sulfate i make sure to finish treatment and run carbon for a week and do another water change then i start my prazipro which i will dose then wait 5 days,do a water change then redose and wait 6 or 7 days.I then run carbon again.I usually try to keep new fish in qt for 6 to 8 weeks depending on how they look and if i need to get them eating first before i can start adding meds HTH Kieth

blennielove
12/04/2009, 01:03 PM
Greetings All,
Update on day 2 1/2 on quinine phosphate. The ich was is still present on the fishes. They are all still actively swimming and inquisitive in their surroundings, looking for food. My pH has been stable at 8.4, ammonia has increased as expected to 1.0 ppm - I dosed some ammo-lock this morning and plans are doing a 20 gallon water change tonight after feeding. The tangs look "funny" I don't know how to describe them, it's like pieces of their scales fallen off? I'll try to post pictures. Other fishes are still hanging in their. It is not fun when your fishes are sick! That will teach me to quarantine and dip!

blennielove
12/04/2009, 01:06 PM
First picture is of my Powder Blue Tang and the second one is of my Atlantic Blue Tang. See how strange their skin looks? If someone knows what this is PLEASE let me know!
Thanks!

wooden_reefer
12/04/2009, 02:49 PM
The only time when I will consider any drug that will gravely harm nitrification bacteria in QT is when here is no alternative. And I generally design so that the medium of filtration can be removed from the filter easily for this reason.

If there is a reasonable alternative, a drug that interferes with nitrification will be disqualified.

If the ammonia in QT is 0.4 ppm, 50% water change will only reduce it to 0.2 ppm at best.

If there is poops or uneaten food, sudden surge of ammonia from decay is always possible.

How toxic is say 0.2 ppm? it may well depend on how long the exposure is.

Some drugs like antibiotics aganist bacterial infection need only a week or so of treatment.

To eradicate ich, it takes eight or more weeks.

Eight weeks of water change, reduced or little food for fish, average 0.2 ppm ammonium? No No No for me.

RBU1
12/05/2009, 03:02 AM
The only time when I will consider any drug that will gravely harm nitrification bacteria in QT is when here is no alternative. And I generally design so that the medium of filtration can be removed from the filter easily for this reason.

If there is a reasonable alternative, a drug that interferes with nitrification will be disqualified.

If the ammonia in QT is 0.4 ppm, 50% water change will only reduce it to 0.2 ppm at best.

If there is poops or uneaten food, sudden surge of ammonia from decay is always possible.

How toxic is say 0.2 ppm? it may well depend on how long the exposure is.

Some drugs like antibiotics aganist bacterial infection need only a week or so of treatment.

To eradicate ich, it takes eight or more weeks.

Eight weeks of water change, reduced or little food for fish, average 0.2 ppm ammonium? No No No for me.

Lets see I think this person will tell you the same thing they told me.....

If you would like to suggest ways of resolving the ammonia and nitrite issues, I'm sure I and many people reading would appreciate that but if you are just going to comment about ammonia and nitrite issues, I'm sure there are threads specifically discussing ammonia and nitrites.

I gues he just does not get it.......Wooden you are better at explaing about the nitrification process then me. I guess they think ammonia binding agents are the way to go.

seafloor09
12/05/2009, 03:08 AM
To eradicate ich, it takes eight or more weeks.

.


How do do you come to that conclusion?

Also you said "Copper does not "destroy" your biological filtration and it treats parasites. "

But you know it does do some damage

blennielove
12/05/2009, 08:13 AM
Lets see I think this person will tell you the same thing they told me.....

If you would like to suggest ways of resolving the ammonia and nitrite issues, I'm sure I and many people reading would appreciate that but if you are just going to comment about ammonia and nitrite issues, I'm sure there are threads specifically discussing ammonia and nitrites.

I gues he just does not get it.......Wooden you are better at explaing about the nitrification process then me. I guess they think ammonia binding agents are the way to go.

Wooden is sharing his thoughts and treatment criteria - thank you Wooden.

An update.
Did a 20 gallon water change last PM. I don't like to use chemicals if I can avoid it. I added 1/2 teaspoon of Quinine Phosphate 20 gallons of new water.

I think the "spots" on my tangs are where the ich had came off. No one has commented on that yet. What do you think?

krowleey
12/05/2009, 12:01 PM
Lets see I think this person will tell you the same thing they told me.....

If you would like to suggest ways of resolving the ammonia and nitrite issues, I'm sure I and many people reading would appreciate that but if you are just going to comment about ammonia and nitrite issues, I'm sure there are threads specifically discussing ammonia and nitrites.

I gues he just does not get it.......Wooden you are better at explaing about the nitrification process then me. I guess they think ammonia binding agents are the way to go.


ammonia binding agents are the way to go when you have ammonia problems. a cycled QT is great, but many times you STILL have ammonia problems.

RBU1
12/05/2009, 01:26 PM
ammonia binding agents are the way to go when you have ammonia problems. a cycled QT is great, but many times you STILL have ammonia problems.

I disagree but OK have fun....

What do you do when you are using copper? Do you ise amonnia binding agents? HOPE NOT...

blennielove
12/06/2009, 08:25 PM
Update Quinine Phosphate Treatment Day 4:
I've been doing 20 gallon water changes on my 55 gallon hospital tank to help with ammonia. Highest was 1.0 ppm. pH 8.4. No Nitrite and Nitrate because there are not enough bacteria in my system to do the nitrification.
The two tangs are looking "normal" again, all dark patches cleared the next day. No signs of ich on fish today. It will be interesting in the next few days to see if I get another ourbreak as the life cycle of ich continues. I've been replacing the medication I take out with each water change. The wrasses are hiding more I think because the tangs are getting grumpier in this small tank, if this continues I will be moving the Lubbock's Wrasse and the Clown Fairy Wrasse to another hospital tank.
One note on the Clown Fairy Wrasse, I notice a yellowing of his "white" belly. This was noted on Terry Bartelme's article: Here's an excerp:

Antimalaria Drugs

Several antimalaria drugs have been used with some degree of success for combating Cryptocaryon irritans. These would include, but are not limited to, chloroquine phosphate, quinine hydrochloride and quinacrine hydrochloride (Atabrine®). A bioassay should be performed before using antimalari drugs, because their strength can vary greatly from one batch to the next.

In my experience, quinicrine hydrochloride was partially effective, but problematic. This treatment caused some of the fish to take on a yellow hue or darken in coloration. It also appeared to cause the fins to begin to fray at about one week into treatment. The recommended treatment period when using quinicrine hydrochloride is 10 days, which is not generally a sufficient period of time to eradicate Cryptocaryon irritans.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm if anyone interested.

Three more days and I'll be finished with the 7 days recommended by National Fish Pharmacy. I hope this works. Otherwise...I think I'll be going the hyposalinity route. Oh my goodness!

RBU1
12/07/2009, 02:58 AM
The recommended treatment period when using quinicrine hydrochloride is 10 days, which is not generally a sufficient period of time to eradicate Cryptocaryon irritans.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm if anyone interested.

Three more days and I'll be finished with the 7 days recommended by National Fish Pharmacy. I hope this works. Otherwise...I think I'll be going the hyposalinity route. Oh my goodness!


My question to you would be....If the person you quoted states The recommended treatment is 10 days, which is not generally a sufficient period of time........WHy would you only do 7 days?

OH and Hypo is just as much of a PITA......Use Cupramine.

cthetoy
12/07/2009, 09:30 AM
I've tried Quinine Sulphate with mixed results. It might not of worked because it was too late for the fish or the product just did not work. I never knew you were not supposed to feed the fish. I fed the fish but I performed water changes every other day and replaced the Quinine sulphate with the amount of water that was changed.

I would not worry about nitrites since nitrites usually rise a few days after an ammonia spike. Your fish would die first from the high ammonia so I would concentrate on monitoring your ammonia.

After all these years Cupramine works 100% of the time. You can NOT mix Amquel/Prime or use UV because this will interact with Cupramine making it more toxic as per Seachem. I found out the hard way.

I had mixed results with hypo. While it will cure ich it has no affect on Velvet (another popular faster acting deadly disease than ich). Cupramine will take care of ich and velvet.

pab2005
12/07/2009, 11:08 AM
Hi, my 1st post :bigeyes:

I've just had an outbreak of white spot here in UK. I dithered over the diagnosis but the Tangs gave it away with the typical grains of salt.

Other fish showed rapid breathing and secondary skin infections which confused the diagnosis and only served to delay treatment.

Read all I could about different treatment and in the opted for 10 days of Cupramine at 0.3. About 4 days in things started improving rapidly with the result I cleared it and saved the fish.

My advice is Cupramine and yes my water parameters went off but was able to control with light feeding and water changes. Next time (in a quarantine tank) I wont hold back.

Tried to post a pic of fish on day 10 of treatment but not so easy on this forum :sad2:

RBU1
12/07/2009, 12:21 PM
Hi, my 1st post :bigeyes:

I've just had an outbreak of white spot here in UK. I dithered over the diagnosis but the Tangs gave it away with the typical grains of salt.

Other fish showed rapid breathing and secondary skin infections which confused the diagnosis and only served to delay treatment.

Read all I could about different treatment and in the opted for 10 days of Cupramine at 0.3. About 4 days in things started improving rapidly with the result I cleared it and saved the fish.

My advice is Cupramine and yes my water parameters went off but was able to control with light feeding and water changes. Next time (in a quarantine tank) I wont hold back.



Thanks for sharing. You were on the low side of the treatment level. Seachem suggests .5 for 3 weeks. So make sure you observe the fish good in copper free water for a week to makw sure you got rid of it.

Tried to post a pic of fish on day 10 of treatment but not so easy on this forum :sad2:

blennielove
12/07/2009, 01:47 PM
WELCOME TO REEF CENTRAL pab2005! I'm glad you did your first post with ME!

The reason that I did not chose copper is because I've read and heard that my wrasses are very senstive to them. I've read many positve things about quinine, which is why I've decided to give it a try and post my progress here. I'm not trying to convince people of it's effecacy but only to share my experience. I'm glad that copper works. It's just that with certain copper sensitive creatures, we need to try diffrent things.

Update on Day 5:
No signs of spots, stress, or frayed fins. All tangs, wrasses, and angel look really good! Great colour and actively swimming, begging for food which I do feed.
Now I will just keep on doing the 10-20 gallon water changes with medication replacement and wait...

wooden_reefer
12/07/2009, 02:57 PM
How do do you come to that conclusion?

Also you said "Copper does not "destroy" your biological filtration and it treats parasites. "

But you know it does do some damage

Eight weeks is empirically arrived at. It is a reasonable compromise between patience and effectiveness. Copper and hypo are only effective in killing the waterborne phase of ich and likely not instantaneously. Suppose just one ich organism survives a very brief trip to a fish, ich is not eradicated by just one life cycle.

10 or 12 weeks is better still.

Coppersafe literature, at least once, states that it will depress nitrification by 20% upon initial application until copper resistant strain of bacteria develops. It is likely true with straight copper.

20% reduction can be adjusted by restricting feeding. In addition, the way I cycle with the seed and waste method will create very dense and active nitrification bacteria population that will FAR exceed the need of any bioload within three weeks after the cycle.

Practically, copper is never a concern to nitrification.

aquaph8
12/07/2009, 04:36 PM
Wooden, whats your take on using prime or amquel during copper treatment.

wooden_reefer
12/07/2009, 04:51 PM
Wooden, whats your take on using prime or amquel during copper treatment.

I am sorry to tell you (I am not sorry though) that I have never used Amquel or Prime in conjuction with copper.

Some people here say that Amquel binds with some copper formulation

I have only used this type of products when I used a drug that will gravely harm nitrification bacteria. Only then do I need to remove ammonia artificially. Copper is not one such drug.

For a long time, over 25 years, I have always had enough active medium (loaded with nitrification bacteria) standing by at least a few months after adding the last livestock in DT. This medium will allow me to remove any amount of ammonia from any amount of bioload all at once in QT.

aquaph8
12/07/2009, 04:54 PM
Thanks man

RBU1
12/07/2009, 05:21 PM
Wooden, whats your take on using prime or amquel during copper treatment.

Dont do it.................

LargeAngels
12/08/2009, 09:27 AM
Wooden, whats your take on using prime or amquel during copper treatment.

I know that combination using Cupramine copper is deadly.

blennielove
12/08/2009, 04:01 PM
Quinine phosphate treatment Day 6 Update:
No signs of re-infestation. All fishes eating, swimming, inquisitive. Clown Fairy Wrasse prefers to hide behind sponge filter as the Powder Blue Tang has gotten somewhat bossy in this little 55 gallon tank. I've got the twenty gallon ready in case the CF Wrasse becomes over-stressed by the PB Tang but so far, he pops out to eat and swim around every once in awhile. I'm considering extending the treatment time out to 10 days at least as they are tolerating it very well. Ammonia highest at 1.0 (fishes showing NO signs of stress from this - no breathing at the surphase or streaked fins) and I bring it down by a twenty gallon water change with 1/2 teaspoon quinine phosphate. pH is steady at 8.3 -8.4.

shroutk3
12/08/2009, 05:03 PM
It takes 8 weeks for ick to die out in a display tank without fish. The fish will not need to be medicated in quarantine for that long. The 8 weeks is to make sure they aren't re-infected upon re-introduction.

The pharmacy recommended ammonia binders for this particular type of medication (I know they aren't recommended for other treatments). Even without these, ammonia may not climb that high as the OP said he wasn't going to feed during treatment.

wooden_reefer
12/08/2009, 05:14 PM
It takes 8 weeks for ick to die out in a display tank without fish. The fish will not need to be medicated in quarantine for that long. The 8 weeks is to make sure they aren't re-infected upon re-introduction.



I am not sure about fish not needing treatment for eight or more weeks.

But I have never tried treating fish for just say four weeks and then wait another four doing nothing in QT. It is hard to do, unless you are committed to science.

Reason suggests that copper or hypo does not kill even waterborne ich instantaneously. Treating longer than one life cycle of ich seems prudent.

blennielove
12/08/2009, 06:18 PM
I don't have the luxury of having a fallow tank for 8 weeks - I would do it if I could. I'm leaving in a few weeks for holiday and so my fish "has to" either go back to the DT which will be fallow for five weeks OR my LFS offered to keep them for me. The problem with keeping them at the LFS is that they will be in a 30 gallon tank that is connected to his WHOLE system of more than 10,000 gallons and I'm afraid that they will be re-exposed to ich or other pathogens there. He treats systematically but I'm just a little worried. I'm thinking that if I put them back in the DT ten days prior to me leaving, I'll have some time to observe them, if they break out with ich again...move those rocks again and take them to the LFS as he had offered to treat them for me. Another thought is to get a larger tank like a ninety gallon, start seeding/cycling it with sponge filters from the three other tanks that I've got that have been running without ICH ever and put the fishes in a larger tank for when I'm gone so that my fish sitter doesn't have to do any water change but just feed them every 3 days or so. I guess I was so fixated on fending off the ich that I didn't think about this until just now. If I set up a ninety gallon, I will be able to keep my tank fallow for as long as I need, even three months...what an exciting thought.

Stuart60611
12/09/2009, 10:15 AM
If you do not leave your display fallow for an extended period, certainly much longer than the 10 day quinine treatment, it is a virtually certainty that all of your fish will get re-infected with ich. The recommended fallow period has some variation and is as little as 4 weeks and as long as 12. Anything less than 4 weeks will not work.

wooden_reefer
12/09/2009, 11:32 AM
I don't have the luxury of having a fallow tank for 8 weeks - I would do it if I could. I'm leaving in a few weeks for holiday and so my fish "has to" either go back to the DT which will be fallow for five weeks OR my LFS offered to keep them for me. The problem with keeping them at the LFS is that they will be in a 30 gallon tank that is connected to his WHOLE system of more than 10,000 gallons and I'm afraid that they will be re-exposed to ich or other pathogens there. He treats systematically but I'm just a little worried. I'm thinking that if I put them back in the DT ten days prior to me leaving, I'll have some time to observe them, if they break out with ich again...move those rocks again and take them to the LFS as he had offered to treat them for me. Another thought is to get a larger tank like a ninety gallon, start seeding/cycling it with sponge filters from the three other tanks that I've got that have been running without ICH ever and put the fishes in a larger tank for when I'm gone so that my fish sitter doesn't have to do any water change but just feed them every 3 days or so. I guess I was so fixated on fending off the ich that I didn't think about this until just now. If I set up a ninety gallon, I will be able to keep my tank fallow for as long as I need, even three months...what an exciting thought.

Raise the temp in DT slowly to the low 80F's if you have not done so, unless you have species in DT that may be harmed by warmer temp.

This will hasten the life-cycle of ich.

LargeAngels
12/09/2009, 12:01 PM
Actually Marine Ich's life cycle is not really affected by temperature. Freshwater ich is affected by temp., which is where the confusion comes from.

wooden_reefer
12/09/2009, 12:10 PM
Actually Marine Ich's life cycle is not really affected by temperature. Freshwater ich is affected by temp., which is where the confusion comes from.

Life is biochemistry. Chemical reactions always increase in rate with temp.

Life of animals that do not regulate temp will always be hastened by increase in temp, I tend to think.

RBU1
12/09/2009, 12:16 PM
Actually Marine Ich's life cycle is not really affected by temperature. Freshwater ich is affected by temp., which is where the confusion comes from.


I read that also....But not sure where.....

What I do....

12 weeks fallow
4 weeks in copper

blennielove
12/09/2009, 07:40 PM
My tank will be fallow for two weeks tomorrow. I've just recounted the weeks and it will be 6 weeks when I return the fishes back to the DT. I think RBU's 12 weeks is a beautiful thing, then you are more than 100% sure that there is not a single molecule of ich around. In my situation with me being gone, they fishes will most likely do better back in the 225 DT. It is amazing how quickly marine life reproduces - I've never seen so many copepods in that tank, and not to mention the size of those creatures!

The part about marine ich not affected by temperature...is found in
leebca's Marine Ich - Myths and Facts
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html
I think I've read it other places too but can't find it this moment.

blennielove
12/10/2009, 07:37 PM
Raise the temp in DT slowly to the low 80F's if you have not done so, unless you have species in DT that may be harmed by warmer temp.

This will hasten the life-cycle of ich.

I've had the temperature in the DT at 80 for weeks now, even before I took the fishes out. I might increase it a little higher still.

Update on day 8 of Quinine Phosphate treatment:
No observable ich on fishes but I admit that the decreased water parameters got my Clown Fairy Wrasse and Lubbock's Wrasse behaving a little strange - increased breathing rate and very shy.
So, today was the day that I was supposed to do a 25% water change and put carbon in the HT, but since I decided to try to go a little longer, stretching treatment out for another 3 days, I went ahead and did a 30 gallon water change. It is amazing how fishes respond to better water quality! I redosed 3/4 teaspoon of QP dissolved in solution first before adding to HT.
The little Atlantic Blue Tang's dorsal fins are a bit tattered - I think it might be from where he and the Flame Angel were chasing each other. I will keep watch on this. No other fishes are showing any fin damage. They are still eating well pellets, frozen mysis, brine, and brown algae.
I'll keep you all updated!

jjstecchino
12/11/2009, 09:26 PM
Hi Claudio,
I am currently treating all my fishes in a 55 gallon hospital tank with Quinine Sulphate and leaving my tank fallow for 6 weeks before re-introduction of my remaining fishes (PBT, Atlantic Blue Tang, Flame Angel, Clown Fairy Wrasse, Lubbock's Wrasse, and Cleaner Wrasse). You are one of the few people at RC who treats with QS! I'm glad that you are here because I've been posting on the "fish disease" side and have received some, how do I say... Anyways, what I wanted to ask you is:
1. How do YOU do your quarantine and for how long?
I was thinking of replacing my Kole tang upon re-introduction back to the DT and I'm planning that out but not sure if I should treat during quarantine or wait to see disease.
2. In your experience, how do you dose your QS and for how long do you treat? How long do you treat in QT?
I'm doing the 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallon, water changes almost daily to rid ammonia as I did not have a seeded HT, and I'm planning on going for a full 10 days. I'm contemplating going for 14 but that may be over kill.
3. I already have a PBT and ABT, plan on adding KT, what do you think about an Achilles Tang in addition? Or am I pushing it too far? It's a 225 gallon reef tank.
Thanks!

Hi Blennielove,

I just finished reading this thread, I am sorry for your ich outbreak. Looking at the fish pictures it look like a very bad case of ich.

I understand your fish are in the 55g Hospital. They are getting better as far as ich is concerned, however the QT tank has not cycled yet. You should be at day 5 of the treatment.

The main problem you are facing at this point is water quality. Water from the DT at this point is not an option to you but you could have used it to fill the QT tank since your fish already have ich. This may have helped cycling the QT quicker rather than starting from freshly made water and clean filters.

Quinine Sulphate does not affect at all the nitrifying bacteria that will start growing on the filters so hopefully soon your ammonia will start going down.

You are doing right as far as the dosing regimen that unfortunately is dictated by the need of performing daily water changes. Dosing every 3 days with a 25% water changes works very well on a cycled tank. In your case you have to do water changes to keep your water quality reasonable but you have to redose quinine daily. If you change 30% of the water I would add instead of 1/3 of the full dose (that should have been 5.5 * 1/4 tsp) 1/2 of full dose in order to compensate for the quinidine from is natural decay.
I would treat for 10 days.

I would keep your DT fallow for as long as you can. Also I would not reintroduce the fish just before you leave. If there is still ich and they get reinfected while you are gone it is a problem.

The time you need to keep the DT fallow is very debatable. You know the life cycle of the parassite as you read it in the book, 5-6 weeks should be enough, however in a natural environment things always happen differently than in the lab. The average hatching time for the tomont (cyst phase) is reported at 3 to 28 days however this time can vary up to 72 days. No strictly speaking "dormant" phase exists, so at some point the tomonts have to hatch. Because this variable incubation time I would keep the DT fallow for as long as you can, at least 8 weeks, 10 if you can. You went through a lot of aggravation removing the rocks, catching and treating the fish that you probably don't want to go through this again.

Once you QT cycle you can use eggcrate to partition the tank and separate the fish in 2-3 groups so they don't fight.

As far as quarantining new fish this is what I do:

Prior to getting fish I place the filter pads of the QT in my sump so that water flows through them for about a week. I then use water from the DT to fill the QT. I drip acclimate the new fish to the DT water and then place in the QT for 3-4 days without any treatment, however if the fish show signs of ich I start treatment immediately.

Once the fish are acclimated and eating, even without signs of ich I treat them anyway. It is safe to assume that at the LFS they have been exposed to cryptocaryon. If their immune system is strong enough they will not show ich but probably are carriers and I like to kill the parassite alltogether if I can.

At this point i treat with quinine at 1/4 tsp x 10g, 25-30% water change after 3 days and then redose at full strength. I do this 3 times. Total of 9 days. As you have notice as you start quinine the ich spots disappear quickly and leave behind small pits. I believe (however I have never done any study on fish skin scraping to prove that) that quinine works differently from copper as it is systemically absorbed by the fish, build medication concentration in the fish tissue and kill the parassite attached to the fish itself. So it is effective on different phases of the parassite and not just on the free swimming trophont phase as copper does. This is why it is not necessary to treat for an extended period of time. I then do water changes and if the fish are fine without signs of disease at 15 days i dip them in FW with Methylene Blue and then introduce them on the DT.

From this point on you have to be prepared to quarantine everything you are going to place in the DT that has been in water. How long do you quarantine non fish animals is hard to say. There may be tomonts in the water or on the coral or maybe not. If I see a hippo tang or PBT swimming in the coral system at the LFS (and I have seen that) I would QT corals coming from that system longer. If the fish in the system are say mandarin dragonets that almost never get ich I would do a shorter period of time. This reasoning is convenient but flawed. If you assume that there is ich on the coral holding system, (and perhaps you should) the only 100% sure thing to do would be to keep those corals in a fallow system for the same time you are keeping your Dt fallow. This is where fishless frag tank not connected to your DT comes very handy.

blennielove
12/11/2009, 10:21 PM
Thank You Claudio!!!

You don't know how much I appreciate your input!!!

I think I might be loosing my Lubbock's Wrasse as he has been decreasing his food intake and is less active in the hospital tank. I took him out of the HT and put him in one of my 6 gallon "leather/chaeto farm" where he can be alone and in a more "normal" environment. I'm don't think he still has ich, he never really showed much, I think what is hurting him is the water quality in the HT. Hopefully this will give him a chance of living through this as that tank has been up for more than a year and is very stable.


I did a 15 gallon water change tonight. Will dose at 1/3 the normal, which means I'll add just 1/4 teaspon of QS. I'm glad that you pointed out the "pits" that were in the pictures - those showed up around day 2 of treatment, the by day 3 or 4 were cleared up. I will stop treatment with 10 days. That will be tomorrow. I will do a 50% water change and put the carbon filters in on Sunday. I can probably take some chunks of my sponges from my three other tanks and use them to seed the HT - or maybe I shouldn't just in case ich is lingering there...Oh no that's a frightening thought! Those three tanks been running for at least a year and a half, I did have an ich outbreat that cleared with daily water changes. Maybe I should just leave the HT filters alone, it should be seeding now.

The largest tank SHOULD in theory be the "easiest" but, YIKES, did I mess up bad!

All I can think about is "SLOW DOWN!"

Kieth71
12/12/2009, 12:10 PM
I have been on vacation since i last posted but it appears you have done well in your treatment.The only thing i would not do is rush putting the fish back in dt or at least keep them out as long as possible.I would recomend 11 weeks if you can do it but at a minimum 8 or 9.I agree with jjstecchino and he has a nice qt regime and a good one to follow.Once you get to the point where you no longer have medication in the tank run carbon and should get easier with less water changes since your tank will be handling alot of the bioload bye itself. -Kieth

blennielove
12/12/2009, 05:28 PM
Welcome back Keith! Hope you had a good vacation!

I will run carbon starting tomorrow. I'm hoping that in the next few weeks my filters in the HT will be able to handle the waste produced by the fishes. What my problem is that when I'm gone for the two weeks, the fishes are really on their own as my fish sitter will feed them every other day but that's it! NO water changes or anything for two weeks! I couldn't imagine. I think going back to the LFS is out as they will get re-exposed to pathogens there, BUT I guess I can alwasy QT for 4 weeks then...I have another trip planned in 6 weeks after that!
I guess "I" should be punished and NO VACATIONS FOR ME! :)

No signs of Ich on day 10 of QS treatment. No scratching, darting, flashing behaviors. Will do 15 gallons water change tonight with 1/4 teaspoon of QS.

Interesting observation of cleaner wrasse and tangs/angel interaction:
When everyone was sick with ich, the cleaner wrasse was very busy going from fish to fish, examining them and picking stuff off of them. The tangs and angel would form a line and take turn for this attention. This behavior has decreased by 99% since no signs of ich! The fishes do not look for the cleaner wrasse, nor does the cleaner wrasse "check out" the fishes! Maybe, this is my sign that they are doing very well and we are finished with ich, at least for now. Cross my fingers!

jjstecchino
12/12/2009, 05:34 PM
Welcome back Keith! Hope you had a good vacation!

I will run carbon starting tomorrow. I'm hoping that in the next few weeks my filters in the HT will be able to handle the waste produced by the fishes. What my problem is that when I'm gone for the two weeks, the fishes are really on their own as my fish sitter will feed them every other day but that's it! NO water changes or anything for two weeks! I couldn't imagine. I think going back to the LFS is out as they will get re-exposed to pathogens there, BUT I guess I can alwasy QT for 4 weeks then...I have another trip planned in 6 weeks after that!
I guess "I" should be punished and NO VACATIONS FOR ME! :)

No signs of Ich on day 10 of QS treatment. No scratching, darting, flashing behaviors. Will do 15 gallons water change tonight with 1/4 teaspoon of QS.

Interesting observation of cleaner wrasse and tangs/angel interaction:
When everyone was sick with ich, the cleaner wrasse was very busy going from fish to fish, examining them and picking stuff off of them. The tangs and angel would form a line and take turn for this attention. This behavior has decreased by 99% since no signs of ich! The fishes do not look for the cleaner wrasse, nor does the cleaner wrasse "check out" the fishes! Maybe, this is my sign that they are doing very well and we are finished with ich, at least for now. Cross my fingers!

Seems the ich fire has been put off. Now it is a matter of cycling the HT. Once the quinine is out, if you have some spare live rock on a coral only system this may help with water quality as well.

I would really strive for a minimum on 8 weeks, or better 10 weeks fallow period on the DT. You really do not want to do this all over again.

blennielove
12/12/2009, 09:22 PM
Oh, believe me, I never want this to happen again!

I will take some live rock from my little "coral farm" tank where I put that poor Lubbock's Wrasse last night and put that in the HT. I know I might be risking it a little but the Lubbock was in QS for 9 days. I'm glad to report that the little guy's still alive. He's eating the copepods in that tank. It was scary to see him literally upside down this morning, then I saw his little eyes moving around... I don't want any more deaths! This whole experience makes me afraid to add ANYTHING to my tanks!

jjstecchino
12/13/2009, 06:36 AM
Oh, believe me, I never want this to happen again!

I will take some live rock from my little "coral farm" tank where I put that poor Lubbock's Wrasse last night and put that in the HT. I know I might be risking it a little but the Lubbock was in QS for 9 days. I'm glad to report that the little guy's still alive. He's eating the copepods in that tank. It was scary to see him literally upside down this morning, then I saw his little eyes moving around... I don't want any more deaths! This whole experience makes me afraid to add ANYTHING to my tanks!

Dont be, just do it the right way

Big E
12/13/2009, 10:25 AM
It's great you're sharing your experience with Quinine Sulfate but the best learning experiences from this thread are from the major bind you're in for not having an established biological filter for your QT tank from day one & introducing sick fish into the display.

Correct protocols of QT for new arrivals in an established QT system for 6 weeks would have avoided all this. It would have also avoided the bind you're in with having to put your fish back into a DT where the ich cycle has likely not run it's course

It's a high wire act trying to fight ammonia at the same time treating fish for a disease with chemicals that you can't measure.

RBU1
12/13/2009, 11:09 AM
It's great you're sharing your experience with Quinine Sulfate but the best learning experiences from this thread are from the major bind you're in for not having an established biological filter for your QT tank from day one & introducing sick fish into the display.

Correct protocols of QT for new arrivals in an established QT system for 6 weeks would have avoided all this. It would have also avoided the bind you're in with having to put your fish back into a DT where the ich cycle has likely not run it's course

It's a high wire act trying to fight ammonia at the same time treating fish for a disease with chemicals that you can't measure.


WOW that sounds really familiar......Some people just don't listen.....Guess some have to learn the hard way.

jaquesdp
12/13/2009, 12:21 PM
Can one use quinine in a full reef ? Ive started getting ich about 2 weeks ago and have been losing fish daily, had around 14 down to 3 thats alive and eating well.. unfortunatly i didnt have a seperate tank where i can keep them,and dosing copper is not a good thing in a full reef setup.. im thinking of starting a little shallow reef where i can keep new fish for now.... will i need to run my tank fishless for 10 weeks before introducing new fish ?

RBU1
12/13/2009, 01:30 PM
Can one use quinine in a full reef ? Ive started getting ich about 2 weeks ago and have been losing fish daily, had around 14 down to 3 thats alive and eating well.. unfortunatly i didnt have a seperate tank where i can keep them,and dosing copper is not a good thing in a full reef setup.. im thinking of starting a little shallow reef where i can keep new fish for now.... will i need to run my tank fishless for 10 weeks before introducing new fish ?


No you can't use it in a reef.....Set up a seperate tank and let it run for a while to build up some bacteria. Put your fish in it and treat them with copper for 4 weeks. Leave your main tank fallow for 12 weeks....

blennielove
12/15/2009, 08:48 PM
Day two after stopping 10 day QS treatment:
Replaced carbon filters and cycled bio-balls from 2 year old reef tanks. Added Purigen.
Nitrogen cycle is finally kicking in. Ammonia has dropped to 0.125 ppm, NO2 0.5, NO3 5, pH 8.4.
All fishes eating well, active. Some scratching behavior (makes me a little nervous), no signs of ich spots.
Temperature has been kept at 82 degrees steady this whole time, I'm planning on lowering it by a degree or so each day or two, back down to 78.

Lessons learned -
Always QT at least 4 weeks. I'll be using QS for 10 days to treat for ich.
Always have biological filtration ready for QT or HT by keeping either bio balls in DT sump, rubbles from DT for canister filter.
Remember what the wise reefers always say, "Nothing in this hobby happens fast!" So SLOW DOWN.
No "reef safe" ich treatment work! Don't waste time and money and lives.
Thanks to all who has been reading and writing!

jjstecchino
12/15/2009, 09:02 PM
Day two after stopping 10 day QS treatment:
Replaced carbon filters and cycled bio-balls from 2 year old reef tanks. Added Purigen.
Nitrogen cycle is finally kicking in. Ammonia has dropped to 0.125 ppm, NO2 0.5, NO3 5, pH 8.4.
All fishes eating well, active. Some scratching behavior (makes me a little nervous), no signs of ich spots.
Temperature has been kept at 82 degrees steady this whole time, I'm planning on lowering it by a degree or so each day or two, back down to 78.

Lessons learned -
Always QT at least 4 weeks. I'll be using QS for 10 days to treat for ich.
Always have biological filtration ready for QT or HT by keeping either bio balls in DT sump, rubbles from DT for canister filter.
Remember what the wise reefers always say, "Nothing in this hobby happens fast!" So SLOW DOWN.
No "reef safe" ich treatment work! Don't waste time and money and lives.
Thanks to all who has been reading and writing!

Blenny, glad to hear things are settling. I would believe some scratching would be ok especially considering what I saw on the pictures you posted.
As you can see it is so true that only bad things happen fast!
Resist the temptaton of putting your fish back on the DT too soon.
I would go for a full 10 weeks fallow.
Also since you have multiple tanks, consider to get rid of possible ich on those tanks as well. It would be much easier to do that in a contrlled fashion rather tan waiting for ich to strike again.
Good luck

csmfish
02/03/2010, 11:29 PM
I have been following the quinine treatment theory and I do not know what is the reasoning that you can not/ should not go longer than 10 days on a treatment? Is there anything wrong with going longer if your perams are okay?

Psionicdragon
02/18/2010, 12:36 AM
so blennie, any new updates?

jjstecchino
02/18/2010, 07:25 AM
I have been following the quinine treatment theory and I do not know what is the reasoning that you can not/ should not go longer than 10 days on a treatment? Is there anything wrong with going longer if your perams are okay?

I don't think there is anything wrong per se with extending the treatment over 10 days. Quinine seems to be very well tolerated by fish, so I dont think you will be doing any harm. Just 10 days seem to work for the majority of people who used quinine and prolonging the treatment may not afford any additional benefit.

sfboarders
02/18/2010, 11:00 AM
I did a QS treatment and noticed the ich spots going away after 2 days. I did a total of 10 days with 2 WC's and replenishing the amount of QS removed. I also did 1/8 tsp per 10 gallons with the cryptopro. I called Dr. Brian to confirm the correct amount to add as there are many different measurements you can use. I'd definitely use QS as an ich treatment for the future.

jjstecchino
02/18/2010, 12:03 PM
It would be very interesting to know if Quinine Sulphate has any detrimental effect on corals and other reef inabitants. I read a post time ago of somebody who in desperation used QS on his full reef and he did not report adverse effect, however he did not post any mid and long term follow-up.

Current reccomendation is NOT to use QS on a reef but rather use a separate treatment tank, however this recomendation stems from the fact that the effect of QS on corals and other reef animals is simply unknown.

The mechanism of action of QS on the protozoan Plasmodium Malariae is quite specialized. P malarie feeds on hemoglobin from the red blood cells producing hemozoin as a byproduct. QS seems to cause crystallization of hemozoin that at this point cannot be excreted and causes death of the parassite. Quinine is also effective against other blood feeding protozoa through the same mechanism of action. Because of this quinine does not disturb other organisms such as bacteria that do not feed on hemoglobin.

I am not sure once Cryptocaryon irritans is encysted what does it feed on, but it is probably blood if quinine is able to kill it (marine biologists more versed on this topic please come to the rescue and share your knowledge).

Due to the very pecialized mechanism of action requiting consumption of hemoglobin and production of hemozoin to be effective, QS may be safe on corals unless it exerts toxicity by other means.

I am not going to risk dosing QS on my display but I think it would be a very useful topic of research by the aquarium industry who has the resource and the economic interest to evaluate this medication in a controlled experimental setting studying the effect of diferent doses of QS on reef inhabitants.

If QS turns out to be reef safe it would become the uncontested drug of choice for ich treatment and just imagine the implications of being able to rid a DT of ich without QT, Hospital tanks etc. The economic implications for selling the drug would also be considerable.

sfboarders
02/18/2010, 12:37 PM
When I used QS in QT the nitrites and nitrates shot UP. The ammonia never increased. I had very good biological filtration. I think the nitrites and nitrates would end up stressing or killing all the other life in the DT if it were to be done. QS treatment should be done in QT.

Psionicdragon
02/19/2010, 02:50 AM
It would be very interesting to know if Quinine Sulphate has any detrimental effect on corals and other reef inabitants. I read a post time ago of somebody who in desperation used QS on his full reef and he did not report adverse effect, however he did not post any mid and long term follow-up.

Current reccomendation is NOT to use QS on a reef but rather use a separate treatment tank, however this recomendation stems from the fact that the effect of QS on corals and other reef animals is simply unknown.

The mechanism of action of QS on the protozoan Plasmodium Malariae is quite specialized. P malarie feeds on hemoglobin from the red blood cells producing hemozoin as a byproduct. QS seems to cause crystallization of hemozoin that at this point cannot be excreted and causes death of the parassite. Quinine is also effective against other blood feeding protozoa through the same mechanism of action. Because of this quinine does not disturb other organisms such as bacteria that do not feed on hemoglobin.

I am not sure once Cryptocaryon irritans is encysted what does it feed on, but it is probably blood if quinine is able to kill it (marine biologists more versed on this topic please come to the rescue and share your knowledge).

Due to the very pecialized mechanism of action requiting consumption of hemoglobin and production of hemozoin to be effective, QS may be safe on corals unless it exerts toxicity by other means.

I am not going to risk dosing QS on my display but I think it would be a very useful topic of research by the aquarium industry who has the resource and the economic interest to evaluate this medication in a controlled experimental setting studying the effect of diferent doses of QS on reef inhabitants.

If QS turns out to be reef safe it would become the uncontested drug of choice for ich treatment and just imagine the implications of being able to rid a DT of ich without QT, Hospital tanks etc. The economic implications for selling the drug would also be considerable.

very detail and informative. Hopefully someone can find out if it is reef safe or not :P

Aquatope
02/20/2010, 12:33 AM
I have used both Copper Sulfate and quinine sulfate in Larval rearing tanks which have minimal filtration ( i.e. airstone), and no suspension of feed for duration of treatment. Very small blip in ammonia and nitrite but not higher than 0.25 to 1 ppm (aside, that is with high stocking density). Prime was always affective without any change to the pH for reducing the toxicity when it crept above 1. * Most medications will affect the biological to some degree, so monitoring is important. Well keep us posted with how things go Blennie .

JohnsonSBK
02/20/2010, 12:58 AM
havnt had very much experience in saltwater dieses thank god but have some in fresh water (koi), i would think general things would still apply like the fact that copper even the newer style is still very unforgiving and reacts differently a lot of times. also parasites are constantly evolving and evolving into resistant strains,. this makes my point that although copper may work fine now i think its a great idea to try new things for treating diseses.

im very interested to see how this treatment evolves and great work with the updates!

some other thoughts i had are increase temp as high as you think safe as i think this would have to increase metabalism and shorten life cycle. also some say that if lights are off then it makes it harder for parasite to find a host giving you more time for the quinine to kill it, my be BS but worth a shot.

id be interested to see how paracetic acid would work for this...

blennielove
02/20/2010, 05:54 PM
Greetings to All!
I'm surprised to see this thread come back alive after so long.
I thought for quite some time to decide weather or not to write. I know that many of you will not be happy with me but then I decided to share my experience in hopes that others will not make my same mistake.
The quinine treatment was successful.
My fishes were without ich for one month before I did something foolish. I had time before my scheduled vacation to sit and happily watch them, but as many of you know, certain events and temptations will always throw a wrench into one's progress.
I saw a gorgeous Achilles Tang that is 6 inches long and has been at my LFS for five weeks. This guy/gal was beautiful - fat, gorgeous coloring, active. I spoke with one of the employees at the LFS and thought that this will be a "good" time to try adding since I've got four weeks left before I go on vacation to quarantine him...I must admit that I was feeling very good and behaving very stupid at the time. I brought him home and did a pH and temperature matched fresh water dip lasting 7+ minutes and put him in with my tangs. Why? So I can see if they all get along -and they did. Four gorgeous tangs swimming in my little 55 gallon tank...Three days later, I still haven't seen the Achilles eat. Three days after that I saw ich in the Achilles. No problem I thought, I still have plenty of quinine sulfate. I dosed for 7 days and the ich continues.
I was able to take the Achilles back to the LFS where he is still alive an well today.
I did a 30 gallon water change on the 55 gallon HT after scrubbing down the glass and PVC condo. I treated with quinine sulfate for 10 days. During this whole time. There was NO ich on my tangs. One week before my departure date. I dipped every fish with seperate temp/pH matched fresh water for 5-10 minutes and released them back to my DT which was fallow for 5 weeks.
Three days after they were in the DT, I noticed ich on the Powder Blue Tang, I waited to make sure that it was what it appears to be then I called my friend at the LFS who offered something that would make your cringe like I did - Formalin.
I know that this ich may be resistant to the quinine as it did not work on the Achilles, but at the same time I don't really know. Four days till departure and remembering that the fishes were starting to show stress in the 55 gallon HT when they were in there - I took his advise.
I removed all but two of my corals as the rock they were on was too big to transport as there were only about 20 zoanthids on one and two leathers on the other - these went to the LFS for baby sitting. I took out all my macroalgae, snails, hermits that I can find and placed them in three different tanks in my house - no, you silly, not my other DTs, just empty tanks I had.
I dosed two 25 mL of formalin every other day x 2, day before I left, I dosed another 30 mL with a 40 gallon water change 20 hours later. My pet sitter dosed a 25 mL formalin three days later and my buddy from the LFS dosed two 30 mL treatments each four days apart.
Two and a half weeks later, I came home to find all my fishes alive and well, active, eating, looking good. To my surprise, the zoanthids and leathers were alive and open as if nothing had happened. The water parameters stayed "good" according to my buddy from the LFS throughout. The only problem was...can you guess? The ich is still on the tangs.
I did a forty gallon water change and dosed 40 mL of formalin into my DT at night. I learned that the trophonts are always released between the hours of 2 AM and 9 AM so I've always dosed my medicines at night as it is the ONLY time when ich is susceptable - when they are free swimming and looking for fishes to attack.
The next day, my water was cloudy with a yellowish tinge and the floor with several dead bristle worms around an inch in length, so I waited for the formalin to stay in there for 24 hours then I did a 40 gallon water change and another the next day. I thought it strange that no bristle worms were lost with all the previous treatments so maybe I had underdosed previously. On the third day, I did another 40 gallon water change and dosed 35 mL of formalin. This time I found larger dead bristle worms largest was 6 inches. I did another treatment three days later and the ich continued to be on the tangs. I believed that there were new trophonts hatching daily in my tank and spreading the treatment out every three days was not enough so I started dosing every 48 hours. Today will be the fifth treatment and I've increased the formalin to 37 mL. I notice the ich on the fish is decreasing in number, so I think I might be finally getting somewhere.
So here are some observations:
1. I should not let my excitement or emotions come in the way of good fish keeping.
2. All the fishes that I've had are alive and well.
3. My zoanthids and leather coral are alive and they do open - strange?
4. My powder blue tang is as fat as any that I saw in the Maldives. My Atlantic Blue Tang grew 2 inches while I was gone. This also is surprising to me.
Before some of you send me some pretty nasty replies, please remember, what ever it is that you want to say to me I've already said it to myself. So please share your thoughts but hold the negativities at bay.
I didn't have to post this but I want to try to encourage others not to make the same mistake that I've made.
If some of you are wondering why I did not do copper, it is because I didn't want to put them in that 55 gallon HT.
With this, I hope that all is going well with you and yours,
Best wishes,
Blennie

Kieth71
02/20/2010, 06:26 PM
Well i am sorry you had to go through this all but ty for sharing.In regards to the start of this thread.I recently bought a atlantic blue tang juvenile.I got a great deal on him as he had obvious signs of ich and so i put him in his own qt and made sure he was eating.I then treated him with quinine sulfate.I did my normal routine then ran carbon for a week and a a water change.I thought i had been successful until i noticed one day signs of ich on the fish.He was still in qt so it wasnt the biggest deal in the world but i was starting to wonder about this great medication that i was useing.Was this a resistant form of ich to this medication?I didnt want to take a chance so i started cupramine which i have used on several occasions and did 4 weeks with the copper.The ich was gone but now i had to ask myself is the quinine sulfate reliable or did i do something wrong in my treatment.I can not tell for sure but it has shaken my confidence in this medication.-Kieth

blennielove
02/21/2010, 12:28 PM
Hi Keith,
I'm wondering if there is a new strain out there that is resistant to quinine. I know that in the writtings, quinine does NOT always work but work for some strains that is difficult to treat. When I contacted Dr. Brian he said that if quinine did not work in the seven days I treated that Achilles then most likely it is a resistant strain.
Everything I've read is that copper works. (period!)
Humm, this also makes me wonder about all these other treatments out there. This was one of the reasons why my friend at the LFS suggested formalin because it is another old treatment that has proven itself. But he was surprised to learn that I'm still dealing with this ich.
Keep us updated about your tang's progress.
Best wishes to you and your fishes!:spin1:

Kieth71
02/21/2010, 01:14 PM
TY blennielove,The tang is doing well.The reason i like quinine so well is because it was quite frankly easy to administer and also very easy on the fish.Cupramine(copper) works very well but it needs constant testing and can be tough on some fish but i feel its the best of the lot when it comes to copper.I have used formalin only once for a pair of clownfish with brooks.I did this in a qt tank so i have no idea how it reacts in a display tank situation.I wish you the best in getting your fish healthy-Kieth

wooden_reefer
02/22/2010, 11:44 AM
TY blennielove,The tang is doing well.The reason i like quinine so well is because it was quite frankly easy to administer and also very easy on the fish.Cupramine(copper) works very well but it needs constant testing and can be tough on some fish but i feel its the best of the lot when it comes to copper.I have used formalin only once for a pair of clownfish with brooks.I did this in a qt tank so i have no idea how it reacts in a display tank situation.I wish you the best in getting your fish healthy-Kieth

I use straight copper in pulses and do few tests. I take advantage of the predictable change and some leeway in effective and safe copper level.

It is not that I believe it is as good as constant copper level, but it is easy and has been good enough for me for over 25 years. No ich for far.

When things are easy, one tends to do them consistently and for long durations. Perhaps this has been why it has worked for me all these years. Absolute min has been eight weeks, often 10-12 weeks in QT to eradicate ich.