How long do you quarantine?

[Reefer2727]

Wondering what is a good amount of time to quarantine new fish? Is 4 weeks standard as the ich life cycle is around that?

Or are we just looking to see if anything noticeable appears in the first week or so?

Thanks

[stubby 58]

1 mo min but thats just me . Also for watching for any kind of sickness and also to get them eating what ever you feed . Gary

[jenjen]

In my 180gal I QT a min 4 weeks. Fish never go into that system until they've been eating and looking healthy in QT for 4 weeks, so sometimes it takes longer if I get a finicky one to start.

In my 55gal I only have 4 large pieces of live rock and 5 fish. It would be relatively easy to remove all the rock & catch all the fish to QT if I needed to, so I've taken a bit of a chance by only QT'ing new arrivals until I'm confident they're eating well.

The safest route (especially for a new reefer) is to QT for min 4 weeks, but if you choose to go shorter be sure you are prepared to pull all your fish and keep them safely elsewhere for up to 6 weeks should you need to.

[Playa-1]

6 weeks here.

[MandM]

5 weeks for me.

[Aquarist007]

Two weeks. If they are eating health and showing no signs of ich or infection then I release them to the display tank

[lordofthereef]

I have heard some go for 8-10 weeks for absolutely anal safety check. I try for a month, but it has been a while since I have added any fish, although with the new build I get to start that again.

[terri_ann]

6 weeks. I want the fish to have plenty of time to recover from the stress of so many transfers from tank to tank to tank, etc. To get used to the food and me, etc. When I transfer to the DT, they are usually out and about within a day or two ;-)

[wooden_reefer]

At least eight weeks to eradicate ich.

[Reefer2727]

Assuming you dont see ich in 4-5 weeks I dont see that wouldnt be enough. I dont think ich would be likely to pop out at week 7.

[wooden_reefer]

Six weeks of active continuous treatment may very be good enough to eradicate ich if the water is particularly warm.
Less than four week is risky in eradicating ich. Two weeks is far too short for this purpose.

I never find it hard to QT for long periods.

It is a matter of patience, not much actual work once the QT is setup.

If you have robust nitrification in QT and do not have to do much water change, little work is required to leave fish in QT, in general. You will have less incentive to debate over 6 vs 8 vs 10 weeks.

[krowleey]

why not 6 weeks of hypo, to be 100% sure no ich is alive. keep the fish hydrated and you can run a antibiotic for any bacteria problems. you can keep a QT tank at 11ppt and keep it there cycled, fish do not need acclimation to lower salinity just higher, PH and temp. this is documented and practiced by such places as the Oklahoma Aquarium. I have had zero issues doing it this way myself.

[drewp808]

sorry to jump in on this one but, do you guys keep your qt running or only when you get new fish? how often do you need to change water on your qt tank, when in use and when not?

[Victor Barreira]

4 weeks in water + cooper solution... then with water 10% of water changes per week to reduce the cooper concentration...

[wooden_reefer]

sorry to jump in on this one but, do you guys keep your qt running or only when you get new fish? how often do you need to change water on your qt tank, when in use and when not?

For the treatment/eradication of ich, if you have nitrification in QT you do not need to change water in QT more often than you do in DT. This is because copper or hypo (gradual adjustment) does not affect nitrification by much. Of course, you will have to have cycled the medium of filtration in QT in advance. This is a part of proper planning in general.

If a bacterial infection strikes when you are treating against ich, it will be a bit more complex. If one fish is infected, I use a separate tank and treat just that fish with antibiotics. Antibiotics, and some other drugs, will affect nitrification to various degrees, from manageable mild to grave destruction of nitrification bacteria.

That is why it is very desirable to reduce the chance of bacterial infection during long QT against ich, so I always use UV in QT before bacterial infection strikes. UV is not against ich, but lurking patheogenic bacteria in the water during treatment to eradicate ich.

As for storage of cycled medium when not in use, you can keep it in a small container. You can feed it with ammonia every now and then to keep it active. I always rinse the active medium with tank water before using it again.

[Nanz]

6 weeks here.

+1,
If I see a problem I extend it to 8 weeks

[Aquarist007]

At least eight weeks to eradicate ich.

IMO you never irradicate ich completely. If anything by quarantining for long periods of time we are increasing the immunity systems of our fish by getting them to eat first and then eat healthy. It also reduces the stress of a double move into a strange envirnoment with some fish not ready to roll out the welcome mat.
Quaranitine all fish--yes definetly--there are more threats to fish other then just ich and while in quarantine we have the opportunity to treat them and not infect our other fish.

However to believe we are irradicating ich is a misconception and IMO we should still focus on the long term health of our fish through a nutritious diet including garlic, vitamins and mos importantly fish oils.

[wooden_reefer]

IMO you never irradicate ich completely. If anything by quarantining for long periods of time we are increasing the immunity systems of our fish by getting them to eat first and then eat healthy.

Yes, it is possible to eradicate ich.

And I suggest that you expunge the whole concept of promoting immunity against ich.

I don't doubt there is immunity against ich, but for ich the factor of re-infection (superinfection) within the confinement of a tank is quite dominant over that of immunity.

The factor that a tank does not have the dilution effect of the ocean should be a key to the control of same diseases, which ich is one.

[wooden_reefer]

The lack of the dilution effect of the ocean is important also against external bacterial infection.

It is also important to achieve the dilution effect of the ocean in regard to pathogenic bacteria (and viruses). This is done with the UV.

Fish, like human beings, have some defense against some pathogens without antibodies, without previous exposure. This capacity is limited even with the best nutrition.

26 members of the Cleveland Browns came down with the flu. Did they have the best nutrition? Should their immunity been optimal? Yes, but they still got sick, but not every member of the Cleveland Brown got sick.

Water quality and nutrition for the promotion of immunity should be a part of this hobby, but should not be overemphasized. Necessary but insufficient.

[lawmary]

I run a QT all the time. I hypo for minimum three weeks.

[tangdiver]

I try 6 weeks and if nothing then try to add to the tank. Be ready to take out.

Try a acclimation box....get the biggest that will fit in the tank...

Good luck

[John Zillmer]

IMO you never irradicate ich completely.

That's not just an opinion -- I've read of studies in which ick was cultured from systems where the fish in them showed no clinical signs for 11 months. Fish can carry ick without there being an "outbreak" in the sense that we see when we say "my fish has ick".

There is no reason to think that simply because a person does not see some disease symptom, that the disease is not present.

[Reefer2727]

Do you hypo fish in your QT tanks that seem perfectly healthy? Will this not cause more stress in the fish?

[wooden_reefer]

Do you hypo fish in your QT tanks that seem perfectly healthy? Will this not cause more stress in the fish?

I treat fish for eight weeks against ich no matter how well they look.

All fish from commercial sources are presumed to have ich.

[Reefer2727]

If the ich life cycle is 4 weeks isn't 8 weeks overkill under hyposalinity conditions?

[wooden_reefer]

If the ich life cycle is 4 weeks isn't 8 weeks overkill under hyposalinity conditions?

What you should consider is that treatment against ich is generally effective against the waterborne phase of the organism, and not instantaneously. (Although I can see how osmotic pressure in hypo will affect other phase as well.)

All it takes is for one organism still strong enough to infest a fish. The next cycle there will be very few ich even if their parent matures.

eight weeks is an empirical time to be effective most of the time for effort to be worthwhile. This is a balance between patience and results. 10-12 weeks is better still.

[Reefer2727]

I think a 6 week hypo on all new fish would be sufficient.

[JTL]

IMO you never irradicate ich completely. If anything by quarantining for long periods of time we are increasing the immunity systems of our fish by getting them to eat first and then eat healthy. It also reduces the stress of a double move into a strange envirnoment with some fish not ready to roll out the welcome mat.
Quaranitine all fish--yes definetly--there are more threats to fish other then just ich and while in quarantine we have the opportunity to treat them and not infect our other fish.

However to believe we are irradicating ich is a misconception and IMO we should still focus on the long term health of our fish through a nutritious diet including garlic, vitamins and mos importantly fish oils.

Capn,
If ich gets into a reef DT what is the best treatment? I don't think I could get my fish out without tearing everything apart. So far I only have my two clowns in the DT that has been running for a couple of months with lots of my own seasoned LR. The rest of my fish that I purchased have been in my old tank, now a QT, for three weeks. I was thinking about waiting another week or so before the move to the DT. They are eating and playing well and no signs of disease. IIRC you service tanks for other people. How often do you see problems with ich or other diseases? Could someone really keep fish in a QT for 10 weeks and still get ich?

[mrpopo]

If ich gets into the display there are no sure ways to eradicate it without removing all of the fish.

[terri_ann]

I do not hypo my fish in QT. (Yes, hypo does put stress on them especially when done properly.) I do not treat them for any pathology; only when they are showing signs of a problem.

[JTL]

If ich gets into thedisplay there are no sure ways to eradicate it without removing all of the fish.

I have read posts that claim you can feed garlic and other supplements to get rid of it. Maybe ich is always present and only the weak fish show symptoms as some believe. In life we are subjected to a multitude of bacteria,viruses and parasites but most of us do not get seriously infected. As always this is food for thought or fuel for a debate and I need to know a lot more before I can take a stand one way or the other.

[extremeshocks]

Ok say i qt a tang for 6 weeks its eating well all looks good i put him into the dt which has never had ich in it. Why couldnt the fish get ich in the dt? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

[kimowen04]

q when u hypo ur fish in qt what do u make the sg? if im getting this then u mean u lower the salinity of the qt the hole 4+ weeks its in there? how does this help? and do u lower the temp in a qt? i hear more bacteria grows in higher temp??

[Playa-1]

Ok say i qt a tang for 6 weeks its eating well all looks good i put him into the dt which has never had ich in it. Why couldnt the fish get ich in the dt? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

It's all about the life cycle of the parasite. The parasite can only live for so long without a host to feed off of. No host, No parasite.

[Aquarist007]

Capn,
If ich gets into a reef DT what is the best treatment? I don't think I could get my fish out without tearing everything apart. So far I only have my two clowns in the DT that has been running for a couple of months with lots of my own seasoned LR. The rest of my fish that I purchased have been in my old tank, now a QT, for three weeks. I was thinking about waiting another week or so before the move to the DT. They are eating and playing well and no signs of disease. IIRC you service tanks for other people. How often do you see problems with ich or other diseases? Could someone really keep fish in a QT for 10 weeks and still get ich?

Ich is in the dt---you never get rid of it. One hopes through good nutrition that the fish can fend it off
I would not put a fish with ich into my dt however---I would still qt it for observation.

Most immediate case. I removed a pork fish from a clients tank that I had been servicing for six months. It went into a 110gal that I had set up in my shop for another client. The tank had cured live rock from my system in it. My system has not seen a case of ich for 3 years.
After three weeks I removed the pork fish and placed it in another tank that I had setup with more live rock from the same system
Three days later it started showing some small signs of ich--12 hours later it died from it.
Where did the ich come from---there were no signs of it in any of the systems--nothing had been added to those systems either
Explantions given on here was that ich can live for years dormant inside the fish gills.
This is where my paradigm shift in thinking about ich as evolved from.

[Driz]

Perhaps another stupid question.

How big of a QT do most of you run? Is it basically barebones? Some rock, some lights etc? Or is it a set up only when needed tank?

[Aquarist007]

Perhaps another stupid question.

How big of a QT do most of you run? Is it basically barebones? Some rock, some lights etc? Or is it a set up only when needed tank?

a 15 gal tank or plastic tote is a nice size.
Run a hob filter on the main tank or sump three days prior to setting up the qt then transfer it over along with water from the display tank. This will match the water chemistry and will have seeded the filter with bacteria by then.
some reef rock can be added for assurance against an ammonia spike but should be removed if copper medications are used

lights are not necessary but a heater is.

[krowleey]

Ich is in the dt---you never get rid of it. One hopes through good nutrition that the fish can fend it off
I would not put a fish with ich into my dt however---I would still qt it for observation.

Most immediate case. I removed a pork fish from a clients tank that I had been servicing for six months. It went into a 110gal that I had set up in my shop for another client. The tank had cured live rock from my system in it. My system has not seen a case of ich for 3 years.
After three weeks I removed the pork fish and placed it in another tank that I had setup with more live rock from the same system
Three days later it started showing some small signs of ich--12 hours later it died from it.
Where did the ich come from---there were no signs of it in any of the systems--nothing had been added to those systems either
Explantions given on here was that ich can live for years dormant inside the fish gills.
This is where my paradigm shift in thinking about ich as evolved from.

i'm sorry but where you got that information is completely wrong. ich can not live dormant it must complete it's life cycle, why people take someones false information over proven studies by marine biologists is mind boggling. also after reading this post, my first guess would be this client had the parasite in the tank which in return moved with the fish. Ich is introduced to tanks, it's not just there, and no it does not live on fish dormant. this is a proven fact

[krowleey]

I do not hypo my fish in QT. (Yes, hypo does put stress on them especially when done properly.) I do not treat them for any pathology; only when they are showing signs of a problem.


bzzzzzzz wrong answer. Hypo does not put stress on fish, in fact it reduces stress, and provides more energy to the fish to fight off infections and the parasite through proper hydration. The problem i have seen is some people drop the salinity down but fail to drop it to 11ppt and think hypo fails, but in reality the failure is on the hobbiest not properly performing hyposalinity. i urge people to do some research on hyposalinity. Here is a starting point.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I4/hyposalinity/OST.htm

[Playa-1]

Perhaps another stupid question.

How big of a QT do most of you run? Is it basically barebones? Some rock, some lights etc? Or is it a set up only when needed tank?

I just set mine up when needed. It consists of a 20 gallon tank, sponge filter, heater, thermometer, ammonia indicator, and a few pieces of pvc joints. Just seed the sponge filter by dropping it in your sump a couple of weeks before you need it. The sponge filter will help process ammonia and reduce the amount of water changes necessary during the qt process.

[terri_ann]

Perhaps another stupid question.

How big of a QT do most of you run? Is it basically barebones? Some rock, some lights etc? Or is it a set up only when needed tank?

My QT is a 29g. I have a HOB filter (keep that filter in my DT sump until needed), a heater, low wattage light, powerhead and PVC for hiding. No rock or sand. When need the QT, use water from the DT to match water parameters. Everything can be ready within minutes. Also, after fish has been transferred to DT, I clean everything and let it dry out. I then put my filter in sump again (thus, not taking any chances of any pathogen going back in to sump/DT). :rollface:

[terri_ann]

bzzzzzzz wrong answer. Hypo does not put stress on fish, in fact it reduces stress, and provides more energy to the fish to fight off infections and the parasite through proper hydration. The problem i have seen is some people drop the salinity down but fail to drop it to 11ppt and think hypo fails, but in reality the failure is on the hobbiest not properly performing hyposalinity. i urge people to do some research on hyposalinity. Here is a starting point.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I4/hyposalinity/OST.htm

Respectfully, I disagree. I believe any time a fish or any aquaria are taken out of their natural salinity, they experience stress.(No different than any mammal experiencing extreme temperatures, etc...They become acclimated but that does not mean that they are not experiencing stress.) Yes, the lower salinity does result in the fish expending less energy for hydration but, it is/has still experienced stress from undergoing the (proper procedure) hyposalinity treatment. It will undergo stress again when it is reacclimating to its natural salinity environment. Yes, anyone thinking/needing to use hyposalinity should research it and perform it properly. Agreed, the aquarist can perform the procedure improperly resulting in a failed treatment.

Just a side-note. There are 2 types of stress; distress and eustress (bad and good). Of course the hyposalinity causes distress.:wavehand:

[Nanz]

If the ich life cycle is 4 weeks isn't 8 weeks overkill under hyposalinity conditions?

Thats assuming that the ich on the infected fish is all at the same life stage. If your going to put a fish through hypo then make sure you cover all the phases of the ich and that your slowly bring the fish back out of hypo which takes about a week in itself.

I also think there is no exact clock on how long the ich cycle takes. Its best to extend the treatment to cover any deviations from the ich cycle

[krowleey]

Respectfully, I disagree. I believe any time a fish or any aquaria are taken out of their natural salinity, they experience stress.(No different than any mammal experiencing extreme temperatures, etc...They become acclimated but that does not mean that they are not experiencing stress.) Yes, the lower salinity does result in the fish expending less energy for hydration but, it is/has still experienced stress from undergoing the (proper procedure) hyposalinity treatment. It will undergo stress again when it is reacclimating to its natural salinity environment. Yes, anyone thinking/needing to use hyposalinity should research it and perform it properly. Agreed, the aquarist can perform the procedure improperly resulting in a failed treatment.

Just a side-note. There are 2 types of stress; distress and eustress (bad and good). Of course the hyposalinity causes distress.:wavehand:

it has been documented that making it easier for a fish to osmoregulate reduces stress of the fish, in fact you do not even have to acclimate the fish to hyposalinity, just the water temp and PH needs to be the same, and you can release fish right into hyposalinity.

Salinity in the new tank is at 11ppt (1.008 SG) and the new arrivals are typically between 30 and 33ppt (1.023-1.027 SG). After adjusting pH, temperature, and detoxification of the ammonia, the animals are introduced into the tank. This is an immediate drop of 19 to 22ppt. These animals have shown no signs of shock or stress outside of what would be considered normal through shipping and handling.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2004/short.htm

Hyposalinity Pros:

1. Less stressful and longer lasting than freshwater dipping.

2. More effective than freshwater dipping outside the aquaria, since OST kills the free swimming parasites as they emerge from dormant cysts/spores within the aquaria/system as well as those attached to the fish (i.e., the fish are not reinfected once they are returned from the bath to the main tank).

3. No special acclimation procedures required for newcomers.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I4/hyposalinity/OST.htm

and i have personally done this with no problems at all. But raising the salinity is different, that needs to be done slow for hydration issues.

[wooden_reefer]

It is amazing to me why there are still so much debate on the issue of ich.

One needs to look at two factors: the confinement of the tank and the life history of ich.

One can obtain much understanding. Reliant on immunity is based on the presumption that immunity can be augmented to overcome 10X, 100X, 1000X (that of natural equilibrium concenration of the ich pathogen) due to successive re-infestation in the confinement of a tank. Is this likely?

Ich is not even a disease in the ocean. So would an effective mechanism of augmenting immunity develop in captivity for captivity? I don't think so.


Before and after have been so absolutely convincing. Fish, any that is susceptible to ich, no matter how vigorous to start with would get ich when exposed to enough concentration of ich. In the early to mid 80's, time and time again I treated ich for a couple of weeks and then return fish to DT. Time and time again ich came back. Lapses caused deaths.

After I started to eradicate ich 25 years ago, I have not had a single case of ich in DT.

The QT must be very well cycled (has enough nitrification) so that one can easily eradicate ich (kill the last ich organism) in one's system after 8 or more weeks of active treatment.

[Nanz]

it has been documented that making it easier for a fish to osmoregulate reduces stress of the fish, in fact you do not even have to acclimate the fish to hyposalinity, just the water temp and PH needs to be the same, and you can release fish right into hyposalinity.

Salinity in the new tank is at 11ppt (1.008 SG) and the new arrivals are typically between 30 and 33ppt (1.023-1.027 SG). After adjusting pH, temperature, and detoxification of the ammonia, the animals are introduced into the tank. This is an immediate drop of 19 to 22ppt. These animals have shown no signs of shock or stress outside of what would be considered normal through shipping and handling.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2004/short.htm

Hyposalinity Pros:

1. Less stressful and longer lasting than freshwater dipping.

2. More effective than freshwater dipping outside the aquaria, since OST kills the free swimming parasites as they emerge from dormant cysts/spores within the aquaria/system as well as those attached to the fish (i.e., the fish are not reinfected once they are returned from the bath to the main tank).

3. No special acclimation procedures required for newcomers.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I4/hyposalinity/OST.htm

and i have personally done this with no problems at all. But raising the salinity is different, that needs to be done slow for hydration issues.

Hypo is a very effective way to treat ich but...

Dragonnets, Sharks and some wrasse do not fair well with hypo.

[kimowen04]

My QT is a 29g. I have a HOB filter (keep that filter in my DT sump until needed), a heater, low wattage light, powerhead and PVC for hiding. No rock or sand. When need the QT, use water from the DT to match water parameters. Everything can be ready within minutes. Also, after fish has been transferred to DT, I clean everything and let it dry out. I then put my filter in sump again (thus, not taking any chances of any pathogen going back in to sump/DT). :rollface:

what do u use to clean the filter media?, that u use in ur QT when u finish quarantining because u said u put it BACK into ur DT i would think thats a big risk of introducing parasites and bacteria that can be harmful into ur DT!!

[krowleey]

Hypo is a very effective way to treat ich but...

Dragonnets, Sharks and some wrasse do not fair well with hypo.

as far as i have read, sharks and rays cant handle hypo, due to the way they expel salt for fresh water. dragonnets and wrasses can handle hypo, it's the feeding that can be difficult not the lower salinity.

[Nanz]

as far as i have read, sharks and rays cant handle hypo, due to the way they expel salt for fresh water. dragonnets and wrasses can handle hypo, it's the feeding that can be difficult not the lower salinity.

I had a fairy wrasse that did not survive but it did eat.

[krowleey]

I had a fairy wrasse that did not survive but it did eat.

wrasses process salt water the same as any other bony fish, i would seriously doubt hypo killed him itself.

[terri_ann]

what do u use to clean the filter media?, that u use in ur QT when u finish quarantining because u said u put it BACK into ur DT i would think thats a big risk of introducing parasites and bacteria that can be harmful into ur DT!!

I rinse everything with hot, hot water and then I let it dry thoroughly. I haven't had any problems w/ parasites, etc in my DT doing this over the years that I have been in this hobby:fish1:

[wooden_reefer]

what do u use to clean the filter media?, that u use in ur QT when u finish quarantining because u said u put it BACK into ur DT i would think thats a big risk of introducing parasites and bacteria that can be harmful into ur DT!!

The filter medium for QT should be separate from the DT. The medium for QT is generally kept active for quite a long time after stocking the last livestock. I never plan to do much with the cycled medium for QT.

When there has not been fish in QT for long enough, I feed it with a source of ammonia. If there is any chance that there is a time constraint, I'd feed the bacteria in advance in a separate container and then rinse it with tank water beforce using it; this is to remove any trace of ammonia from feeding the bacteria.

[Reefer2727]

What do you feed an empty QT tank with to provide a source of ammonia Wooden Reefer? Toss in the raw shrimp or something?

[sfboarders]

What do you feed an empty QT tank with to provide a source of ammonia Wooden Reefer? Toss in the raw shrimp or something?

Raw shrimp or fish food will work.

[wooden_reefer]

What do you feed an empty QT tank with to provide a source of ammonia Wooden Reefer? Toss in the raw shrimp or something?

Yes, that will work. In this case I won't emusify it but just finely chop it.

If you know for sure that you will no longer have any residual ammonia for your next fish you can feed in QT directly. If you want to keep the option open, you can feed the bacteria by moving the filter and medium to a small container and then feed with ammonia there.

[Aquarist007]

The filter medium for QT should be separate from the DT. The medium for QT is generally kept active for quite a long time after stocking the last livestock. I never plan to do much with the cycled medium for QT.

When there has not been fish in QT for long enough, I feed it with a source of ammonia. If there is any chance that there is a time constraint, I'd feed the bacteria in advance in a separate container and then rinse it with tank water beforce using it; this is to remove any trace of ammonia from feeding the bacteria.


what's wrong then with the other preferred method--that is starting up a hob filter on the display tank, running it for 3 ot 5 days so it is seeded with bacteria and then transferring it to the qt tank?

[Aquarist007]

i'm sorry but where you got that information is completely wrong. ich can not live dormant it must complete it's life cycle, why people take someones false information over proven studies by marine biologists is mind boggling. also after reading this post, my first guess would be this client had the parasite in the tank which in return moved with the fish. Ich is introduced to tanks, it's not just there, and no it does not live on fish dormant. this is a proven fact


If there is one thing that I have learned on here Krowleey, is that there are few black or white concepts.
Up to two months ago I felt the same way and posted the same view as you.
However discussions with really seasoned(I didn't say old :lol:)reefers on here has chained or slightlly altered my views on ich.
The possibility that the biologists haven't got it right yet is possible--would not agree in this ever changing and developing hobby.

Stating that you should keep an open mind would be particularily insulting to an experienced and knowledgeble reefer like your self so I am not going there.

However, for the benefit of some other reefers who might not be as experienced is that we are dealing with living things here--and there always could be an exception to a somewhat often stated axiom.

In my case, I knew the history of all three of all three tanks, the live rock etc that the pork fish came from and went into. None of them showed signs of ich ever. The particular reefer who stated that the ich can live dormant on the gills has been in the business for over 25 years and the other person that agreed is the most experienced reefer on this site.


BTW I apreciate the civil discussion going on here and am personally enjoying it. One of the reasons why ich might be a continual debate on here is that the threads usually end prematurily by someone going postal and taking a debate as an argument

[Aquarist007]

Raw shrimp or fish food will work.

I believe that in itself is stressful for a fish you might be coping with a disease. You do not want any ammonia spikes in there. That is why IMO it is better to start an hob filter on an established tank and transfer it to the qt
It it is a rather large fish then throw in a couple of lbs of live rock from your display also. If you have to treat with chemicals you can easily remove them and by then they have helped seed the qt tank also

[wooden_reefer]

what's wrong then with the other preferred method--that is starting up a hob filter on the display tank, running it for 3 ot 5 days so it is seeded with bacteria and then transferring it to the qt tank?

Quantity of bacteria and hence nitrification capacity in QT.

If the bacteria is simply collected in a DT, which has reached equilbrium bioload vs bacteria population, there will likely not be enough bacteria for additional bioload of new livestock.

Scounging from DT may work for very light bioload. If you are adding a small fish, it might work. You simply feed the DT a little less in the coming days.

To expand the nitrication capacity you will have to cycle the seed. What is collected from DT is just bacteria seed.

I never need to worry about the size of fish and the number of fish I get in QT, for limited nitrification per se.

In general, I tend to stock fish fast, not slow. Only newbies should stock fish slowly (they should) to learn the ropes in disease control.

Every week there are many ich SOS posts. The key really is to eradicate ich and to do that you have no choice put to put all your fish in QT. This is why we should not repeatedly say to newbies that one must stock slowly due to limited nitrification. There is no such a thing as limited nitrification if you prepare in advance. That is why even when there is a calamity of ich outbreak, newbies should be aware that it is possible and even easy to prepare to cycle for many fish all at once. It can be done and sometimes there is no other choice, even for the newbies.

[wooden_reefer]

I believe that in itself is stressful for a fish you might be coping with a disease. You do not want any ammonia spikes in there.

We are saying when there is no livestock for a rather long time, but you cannot allow the bacteria to starve.

[Aquarist007]

We are saying when there is no livestock for a rather long time, but you cannot allow the bacteria to starve.

got yah:blown::blown::lol:

[krowleey]

If there is one thing that I have learned on here Krowleey, is that there are few black or white concepts.
Up to two months ago I felt the same way and posted the same view as you.
However discussions with really seasoned(I didn't say old :lol:)reefers on here has chained or slightlly altered my views on ich.
The possibility that the biologists haven't got it right yet is possible--would not agree in this ever changing and developing hobby.

Stating that you should keep an open mind would be particularily insulting to an experienced and knowledgeble reefer like your self so I am not going there.

However, for the benefit of some other reefers who might not be as experienced is that we are dealing with living things here--and there always could be an exception to a somewhat often stated axiom.

In my case, I knew the history of all three of all three tanks, the live rock etc that the pork fish came from and went into. None of them showed signs of ich ever. The particular reefer who stated that the ich can live dormant on the gills has been in the business for over 25 years and the other person that agreed is the most experienced reefer on this site.


BTW I apreciate the civil discussion going on here and am personally enjoying it. One of the reasons why ich might be a continual debate on here is that the threads usually end prematurily by someone going postal and taking a debate as an argument

the problem i have with the concept of ich living dormant in a fishes gills is there is nothing to back this up. Just simply a hobbyist opinion, with another person agreeing with it. Ich can live on a fish and keep the cycle going, and not be seen until the fish gets stressed enough, this happens to alot of folks who believe they have a ich free system, and did not QT using preventive measures to keep the parasite out. This parasite has been studied for longer than i have been alive, and i believe if indeed this parasite could lay dormant, it would have been documented through all the studies, research and money put into it.

[krowleey]

Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans)

One of the marine aquarist’s devils. So many articles have been written about it. Many are long or are in multiple parts. A lot is known about this marine fish disease because of the many $$$ put into research by the fish farming and aquaculture industries. First discovered (or the better word is 'noticed') in the 1800's and later more understood in the 1900's, we’ve learned about all there is to know about this parasite by the 2000's.

I don’t want to write a long post on Marine Ich (MI) but the reader, in as brief of space as possible, should know some truths. The aquarist 'sees something' and then 'guesses' as to what it means and thus starts another round of rumors. It's almost a type of voodoo. It's easier to listen to a rumor of a short absolute statement then it is to read and understand the results of decades of studies and experiments. It is easier to try and take shortcuts with this disease by believing the parasite to be able or capable to do things or die from things it just can't, then it is to do the work to kill it, control it, or prevent it by the means that are known to work.

It's time to separate out the rumors from the facts and the subjective observations (which start rumors) from actual scientific studies. In bullet form, here’s what is known:


Life and Visuals:

1, The parasite has several ‘stages’ in its life cycle. Cyst in aquarium (usually on substrate, decoration, wall, equipment, or rock) ruptures into free-swimming parasites that burrow into fish, grow into a visible white nodule that is ‘pregnant’ with more parasites, that usually falls off the fish to form a cyst that starts the cycle over again.

2. Only time a human can see this parasite with the naked eye is when it is ‘pregnant’ on the fish and has formed a white nodule. (The white spot is about the size of a grain of table salt or sugar).

3. Parasites that have just burrowed into the fish are not visible until 2.

4. Cycle can be completed in less than 7 days, but usually within 24 days BUT can go as long as 72 days. Literature usually quotes ‘average’ number of days. 72 days is rare; 60 days usually encompasses more than 99.9% of the observations and research.

5. This is not the same as the freshwater disease, Ich (Ichthyophthirius multifilis) but it was named after it?! This leads freshwater aquarists to thinking the wrong things about Marine Ich, adding to the myths and rumors.

6. MI is not very sensitive to temperature changes. That is, increasing the temperature does not significantly decrease the life cycle time. This is not true with Freshwater Ich (which is where this rumor of raising the temperature on a marine aquarium with MI comes from).

7. MI can live and reproduce in temperatures as low as 50F and as high as 90F. Thus temperatures that would kill MI would first kill or severely stress most tropical marine fishes.

8. Spots appear then disappear as MI goes through its cycle. Remember 2. This 'disappearing act' is what leads uninformed aquarists to believe the fish are cured. This is the dumbest thing aquarists can possibly think about this parasite!

9. Parasite likes infecting the fish’s gills. The tissue there has more water passing by so there is an increase in chance the free-swimming parasite will get to the gill. This is one reason why fast breathing (over 80-90 swallows in one minute) is one of the symptoms of possible infection.

10. The parasite burrows into the fish, below the mucous layer and into the skin. (This is why cleaner fish/shrimp can’t get to it in order to remove them from the fish). The second dumbest thing an aquarist can think: I'll get some cleaner fish or cleaner shrimp to remove/eat the parasite. THESE MARINE LIFE DO NOT EAT THE PARASITE NOR WILL FISH OR SHRIMP REMOVE THE PARASITE FROM THE INFECTED FISHES.

11. Parasite is transmitted in water (free-swimming and cyst stages), or by falling off of an infected fish (even one that seems healthy because of 9.). This means that water OR fish from another aquarium can carry the disease to another aquarium.

12. The parasite can infect bony fishes, including eels, sharks, and rays, though many species of fish, like Mandarins, have a good resistance to MI, they can still be infected and can harbor or carry the parasite. Invertebrates, snails, crabs, corals, plants, etc. are not affected/infected by MI, but the MI can be in their water, shells, etc.

13. There is no such thing as a dormant stage for MI. The parasite can’t wait around for another host. It MUST go through its cycle. Dr. Burgess recorded that in the cyst stage, he found the longest existing cyst to last for 60 days before releasing the free-swimming parasites. This is rare but possible.

14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.


Treatments:

1. Hyposalinity - Using a refractometer, hold salinity at 11ppt to 12ppt until 4 weeks after the last spot was seen. (Best to use salinity, but if you use specific gravity, that equates to roughly 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units). Raise salinity slowly and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Hard to control pH and water quality during treatment. This is the least stressful treatment for the fish.

2. Copper treatment - Follow medication recommendations. Can be effective in 2 to 4 weeks of treatment. After treatment, remove all copper and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Copper is a poison to the fish and creates some stress. The fish may stop eating. See end of this post for other things that can go wrong.

3.. Transfer method - Fish is moved from tank to tank to separate the fish from the cysts that fall off and the free-swimming stages of the parasite. Two hospital tanks are needed to perform this treatment. The fish is stressed by having to keep moving it between these hospital tanks.

4. Only the above 3 known cures work almost 100% of the time. Other chemicals will kill the MI parasite, but only in special conditions (not good for the fish) or in lab experiments (not using marine fish). Some chemicals will only kill some of the organisms, letting the others escape death to go on to multiply and infect.

5. Not any of the treatments can be done in a display tank with true live rock. Must be done in a hospital tank or quarantine tank. The hyposalinity and the copper treatment would kill invertebrates, live rock, and other non-fish marine life. Substrates and carbonates interfere with a copper treatment.

6. No known ‘reef-safe’ remedies work consistently. Many aquarists think a particular remedy works when in fact the fish acquire an immunity or defense against the parasite. It’s easy for any manufacturer to have an independent study done on the effectiveness of the ‘reef-safe’ remedy but they don’t because. . .

7. Cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasses are not known to pick these parasites off of fish. (See 10. above).

8. Freshwater dips can kill some of the parasites on/in the fish, but not all of them because many of the parasites are protected by the fish's skin and mucous layer. (See 10. above).

9. No dip can get rid of these parasites because primarily of 10. above.

10. Let aquarium go fishless (without any foreign saltwater additions (e.g., water from LFS system, water from another tank or system -- use only distilled or RO/DI for evaporation and freshly made, uncontaminated salt water for water changes), without contamination from infected tanks, live rock additions, etc.) for at least 8 weeks and the tank will be free of MI. This 'fallow period' has over a 99.9% chance of success.

11. NEVER combine a copper treatment with a hyposalinity treatment. In hyposaline solutions, copper can be lethal to marine fishes. When using certain complexed copper medications, like Cupramine, the two can be used together. However I strongly advise even doing this. During a hyposalinity treatment, it is hard to control the pH. The buffering ability of the water is very weak, so pH shifts are very easy. In the presence of a copper medication, a sudden drop in pH can cause copper poisoning to the fish. Choose one or the other, depending upon whichever one you can work with; choose copper if the fish have an advanced case; choose hyposalinity whenever you have the time, patience and attention to give.


Defense and Immunity:

1. The fish’s mucous coating can provide some protection from the parasite. The mucous coating is where some fish immunity develops.

2. When water temperature drops, mucous coating is often reduced or lost in marine fishes, that is why sometimes MI becomes visible on the body of the fish after a sudden drop in temperature. This meant, however, that the disease was present and living in the aquarium, infecting fish without the aquarist having been aware of it.

3. No fish, no matter how good its defense is, can stop being infected. A healthy fish will and can be equally infected as a sick or stressed fish. What happens is the aquarists sees one or more fish with the disease and assumes because none are seen on the other fish in the aquarium that they are 'disease free.' NOT. Aquarists can't always see the parasites. See above top, 2., 3., and 9. All fish in an infected tank require treatment.

4. A weak, stressed, or sick fish will die sooner than a healthy fish, but is no more likely to get infected than the healthy fish.

5. A fish that survives an attack may develop proteins in the mucous coating that will help fend off the parasite (this is a type of immune response). An immune fish will usually not show being infected. Unfortunately. . .(see 6. below). . .

6. An immune fish doesn’t remain immune. Separated from the disease for months, the once immune fish can become MI infected. OR if the immunity weakens, the fish will be attacked.

7. Immunization seems to work, but not affordable or likely available to the hobby for many more decades. The immunization materials are hard to make, expensive, and slow to produce. Immunization usually only works for several months at a stretch.


Subjective and Non-Subjective Observations, Claims, and Common Myths

1. Some Tangs seem more susceptible. True. Their mucous coatings are reduced in thickness and composition. They swim up to 25 miles a day in the ocean in search for food so maybe Mother Nature provided them with this as a means of 'escape.'

2. It goes away on its own. Untrue. Only visible at one stage IF it is on the body or fin of the fish. It’s the life cycle. If it was once seen, then it hasn't gone away -- it's just not visible to the aquarist.

3. It goes away with a ‘reef-safe’ remedy. Untrue. This is one of the biggest and most 'dangerous' of the misrepresentations in the hobby. The aquarist thinks everything is okay when it isn't. What usually has happened is that the parasite has killed the fish it will kill and the rest have developed a resistance or immunity. The parasite is still in the aquarium, possibly infecting the gills of the fish where it can’t be seen.

4. It was gone then when a new fish is added, it is there again. Not true. See 3. It wasn’t gone or the new fish brought in the disease with it. A new addition to an aquarium can be the stress which triggers the other fish to reduce their defense or immunity, thus allow the parasite to 'bloom' to the point where the infection is now visible to the aquarist.

5. The fish lived the last outbreak then died during the second or subsequent outbreak. Can be true. The fish had a resistance or immunity that it lost.

6. It was accurately diagnosed as MI spots, then never showed up again. It wasn’t MI or the fish quickly developed an immediate immunity or resistance, or the fish is still infected in the gills.

7. MI can ‘hang around’ almost unnoticed with just a body spot now and then because it often resides just in the gills. True. So ‘it is gone’ after ‘it was here’ is very unlikely.

8. Aquariums always have MI. Untrue. MI can be kept out of an aquarium. Just quarantine all fish and don’t let non-quarantined livestock get into the aquarium. After keeping thousands of marine fishes, my home aquariums have been free of MI since 1970.

9. Fish always have MI. Untrue. In the wild they often show up to 30% infected (or more) but the wild fish survive minor infections. In the tank the parasite can 'bloom.' In the tank the fish can't get away. The combination of bloom and no escape will overcome the fish. In capture and transportation the fish can share the disease and thus many wild caught marine aquarium fishes do have this parasite, but not all.

10. Like 9. a fish can't be made to be totally rid of MI. Untrue. All marine fish can be cured and rid of any MI infection.

11. Just feed the fish well and/or feed it garlic and it will be okay. Untrue. I compare this approach to this one: "Granny has pneumonia. Let's keep her home rather than take her to the hospital. We'll feed her well with chicken soup and vitamins." Nutrition, foods, vitamins, etc. don't cure an infected fish. An infected fish is sick and is being tortured by the itching and discomfort. It might pull through and obtain Resistance or immunity (see above) but while you sit comfortably in your home, the fish is being stressed by having to contend with a parasite. Don't let this happen to the fish. Cure it!!

12. A new cure has been discovered. Unlikely. If the aquarist thinks they have found a new cure, then have it researched and independently tested. It's easy and cheap. If it is as good as the above 3 then the professional veterinarians, private and public aquariums, fish farms, and I will use it. The aquarist needs to keep the perspective of how devastating this parasite is not to just the hobby but to the whole fish farming industry. Any new way of 100% treatment will make headlines!

13. If the MI can't always be detected, then why bother with a quarantine procedure? In the confines of a small quarantine and being there for no less than 6 weeks, the MI parasite will make itself known because the fish is weakened and the fish can't get away from being re-infected by multiplying MI parasites. In other words, the quarantine procedure instigates a 'bloom' of the parasite which will make it visible to the aquarist.

14. All white nodules fall off the fish and move on to the cyst stage. Untrue. It has been discovered that, on very rare occasions (why we don't know) the white nodule will encyst and rupture while still on the fish.

15. UV and/or Ozone kills MI. Ozone doesn't kill all parasites that pass through the unit, nor does the water treated with ozone kill the parasites. UV only kills the parasites that pass through the unit. Not all MI parasites will pass through the unit, so the UV will not rid an aquarium of MI. A UV can help prevent a 'bloom' of the parasites however, and thus help in its control. UV is not a cure nor a preventative measure for MI.

16. Spots are MI. Untrue. Probably one of the most problematic causes for rumors and myth-information in the hobby is assuming the spot is Marine Ich when it may be one of another few dozen other parasites or conditions (e.g., pimple-like reaction to infection) that look like Marine Ich. The mis-diagnosis is often the cause for claims of what cured MI, when the fish didn't have MI to start with.

17. My LFS quarantines their fishes for 2 weeks and I only buy them to be sure they are healthy and free of MI. Have you been reading the above? The 2 weeks is not long enough. Was the 2 weeks in isolation or is the fish's water mixed with other fish's water? Seeing is not believing, right? LFS employees don't have time to closely observe and study the fishes they have in stock, for a full 6 weeks. The truth is out there. . .Trust no one.


PLEASE DON'T SPREAD RUMORS!



a good read from Lee Birch off another site, but Lee does post here from time to time. Like i stated, this parasite has been studied for many years, i would STRONGLY urge new people to use the proven data and science over a hobbyists opinion with no weight, but a guess. Thank you Lee for all your information, and i hope you don't mind me sharing it here.

[kimowen04]

Quantity of bacteria and hence nitrification capacity in QT.

If the bacteria is simply collected in a DT, which has reached equilbrium bioload vs bacteria population, there will likely not be enough bacteria for additional bioload of new livestock.

Scounging from DT may work for very light bioload. If you are adding a small fish, it might work. You simply feed the DT a little less in the coming days.

To expand the nitrication capacity you will have to cycle the seed. What is collected from DT is just bacteria seed.

I never need to worry about the size of fish and the number of fish I get in QT, for limited nitrification per se.

In general, I tend to stock fish fast, not slow. Only newbies should stock fish slowly (they should) to learn the ropes in disease control.

Every week there are many ich SOS posts. The key really is to eradicate ich and to do that you have no choice put to put all your fish in QT. This is why we should not repeatedly say to newbies that one must stock slowly due to limited nitrification. There is no such a thing as limited nitrification if you prepare in advance. That is why even when there is a calamity of ich outbreak, newbies should be aware that it is possible and even easy to prepare to cycle for many fish all at once. It can be done and sometimes there is no other choice, even for the newbies.

ok say u have ich in ur DT and u move all fish to QT and u have coral in ur DT ich doesnt affect coral right? AND to keep up ur bacteria w/o the fishing being in ur DT would u just put fish food in there as if ur fish were there or more or less food? im fairly new at this and im interested for future reference?

[krowleey]

ok say u have ich in ur DT and u move all fish to QT and u have coral in ur DT ich doesnt affect coral right? AND to keep up ur bacteria w/o the fishing being in ur DT would u just put fish food in there as if ur fish were there or more or less food? im fairly new at this and im interested for future reference?

please read the above post, it is tried and true and works 99.9% of the time as long as you follow it. yes feed your tank while it is running fallow to keep your biological filter in good shape. your tank needs to run fallow 8 weeks, and you need to run 6 weeks after the last spot is seen in hyposalinity 11ppt.

[Aquarist007]

Krowleey--what a great post and a great read. Thank you for taking the time to post it.

I am amazed that after all the threads and posts I have participated in (definetly a few :) ) that I have not come across this information before. Who is Lee Birch and what are his qualifications? The information that I posted previously is from other threads with very qualified reefers. I will link them to this post as I think it will be very interesting for them to read this information and hear their take on it.

IMO all ancecdotal information should not be considered rumour not should it be accepted as tenets of ich either. I don't have tons of practical experience so I put faith in that the anecdotal information of many experienced reefers and the exposure by the size of this site, anecdotal information can sometimes come very close to the truth. This is why the information you posted boggles my mind --once again thank you for posting

[krowleey]

Bio - Lee (a.k.a. leebca)
I've been asked on more than few occasions about my background. I'll outline it here for those who are interested:

TIME LINE
1960 My first freshwater aquarium;
1968 My first saltwater aquarium;
1969 to 1973 Ohio State Univ.
1973 to 1982 Working in Microbiological fields
1982 to current Working in metals fields - traveling around the world

NOTEWORTHY FACTS RELATING TO MARINE FISH KEEPING

In the early 1970's I conducted experiments and studies on Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) and ornamental fish diseases, the use of garlic, the use of antibiotics, the use of dips, acclimation procedures, and fish nutrition.

I specialize in FOWLR system and FO systems. I have handled about 1700+ marine fishes and have learned a lot about their maladies and remedies through experience, biopsy/post mortem exams, dissection, operations under anesthesia, care, and continued education.

I have degrees in Microbiology and Chemistry from OSU. I was partner of an LFS in Columbus, OH in the early '70's, imported fishes from The Philippines, and helped begin the net-catching practices (abolishing cyanide collections) there.

I often attend conventions and hobby activities around the world.

I have attended five courses (one of them twice) on ornamental fish husbandry and have certificates of those attendance and accomplishements.

I lecture for no compensation (other than a free dinner perhaps) around the country and do not earn any money from the hobby in any way.

I try to share my knowledge and experience with others to help their fishkeeping practices and the curing of ill marine fishes. I do not publish for renumeration, but will write long posts and informational posts on the Internet. I don't make any money nor accept any money from the hobby in any way, including speaking engagements, articles, posts, books, etc. I don't have any (financial or business) interest in any equipment, system, food, medication, or product used, sold, or made for the hobby.

My Internet name is leebca. My name is Lee Birch. (I go by my middle name -- my first name is William).
__________________
LEE



this is from yet another site he is on. you can google him and find many places and information about Lee Birch.

[krowleey]

also, search for Dr. Burgess and the study's and research done on marine ich. heck search right here and RC and you will find valid information on this parasite. I would strongly ask these people claiming ich lays dormant on a fishes gills, how they come to this hypothesis? Guessing does not work. let's see REAL research done. And what back ground do they have?

[Jared J]

Everything I've read about Cryptocaryon shows that the parasite lifecycle is about 48 hours. Parasites typically infect the gills of the fish first. Then after feeding they drop off, attach to the substrate and encyst. While encysted, they are immune to medications and they multiply....one parasite can become 100-300 tomites. When the cysts burst, these become free swimming and MUST attach to a host within 12 hours or they will exhaust their energy and die. This complete lifecycle is about 48 hours.

Yes, if your fish are infected there are many stages going on in the tank itself. I usually quarrantine for 2-3 weeks as long as there is no sign of infection. If I see spots, I treat the QT until the spots are gone for 2-3 weeks continuously. The medication only kills free swimmers anyway, so once you see spots chances are you have about 48 hours to kill off anything in the QT. I just treat for the 2-3 week period to make sure.

Everyone's gonna do this different, and I was told by a marine biologist at the VA Aquarium that Crypto is not necessarily in the tank at all times. If you start with a clean tank, setup your rock and equipment and wait 2-3 weeks before adding "clean" fish that have been QT'd properly you most likely won't see Ich unless you introduce it. Tomites (Ich free swimmers) can be introduced with water from adding corals that were not QT's because most pet stores use common systems and if they have an outbreak in one tank, it's in all the tanks.

It is possible to buy a coral and have trophonts that have encysted on the frag plug or base. In that case they would burst open after the coral is placed in your DT and free swim. If your fish are healthy they would normally fight them off and the tomites would die within the 12 hours. If you had a stressed fish for some reason, a tomite would attach and start the outbreak into the DT.

[Aquarist007]

also, search for Dr. Burgess and the study's and research done on marine ich. heck search right here and RC and you will find valid information on this parasite. I would strongly ask these people claiming ich lays dormant on a fishes gills, how they come to this hypothesis? Guessing does not work. let's see REAL research done. And what back ground do they have?


would you mind if I started a new thread in the discussion forum on the above information. It might not be noticed by alot of reefers buried in this thread?

[krowleey]

would you mind if I started a new thread in the discussion forum on the above information. It might not be noticed by alot of reefers buried in this thread?

I don't mind at all, this is not my research, or post. i just shared it. all credit is for Lee. which btw he has a sticky in the disease forums for nutrition.

[Aquarist007]

Everything I've read about Cryptocaryon shows that the parasite lifecycle is about 48 hours. Parasites typically infect the gills of the fish first. Then after feeding they drop off, attach to the substrate and encyst. While encysted, they are immune to medications and they multiply....one parasite can become 100-300 tomites. When the cysts burst, these become free swimming and MUST attach to a host within 12 hours or they will exhaust their energy and die. This complete lifecycle is about 48 hours.

Yes, if your fish are infected there are many stages going on in the tank itself. I usually quarrantine for 2-3 weeks as long as there is no sign of infection. If I see spots, I treat the QT until the spots are gone for 2-3 weeks continuously. The medication only kills free swimmers anyway, so once you see spots chances are you have about 48 hours to kill off anything in the QT. I just treat for the 2-3 week period to make sure.

Everyone's gonna do this different, and I was told by a marine biologist at the VA Aquarium that Crypto is not necessarily in the tank at all times. If you start with a clean tank, setup your rock and equipment and wait 2-3 weeks before adding "clean" fish that have been QT'd properly you most likely won't see Ich unless you introduce it. Tomites (Ich free swimmers) can be introduced with water from adding corals that were not QT's because most pet stores use common systems and if they have an outbreak in one tank, it's in all the tanks.

ImO the time line mentioned above in Krowleey's post is more the common time line mentioned on here

[Aquarist007]

I don't mind at all, this is not my research, or post. i just shared it. all credit is for Lee. which btw he has a sticky in the disease forums for nutrition.

thanks I am aware of his nutrition thread---for years I have both followed it and linked others to it when the topic of fish nutrition comes up

[krowleey]

thanks I am aware of his nutrition thread---for years I have both followed it and linked others to it when the topic of fish nutrition comes up

Lee is great, i have alot of respect for his hard work.

[Aquarist007]

Lee is great, i have alot of respect for his hard work.


here is the thread krowleey:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1752607