My F.O Tank with some special Angelfishes

[RouDaiLLe]

Hello Folks,

Just for people that like F.O tank, you will find the video of my aquarium with a lot of special fishes!


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And in my sump :

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I hope you enjoy it!:jester:

Later,

[WuHT]

how do the 2 clown triggers get along ?

[RouDaiLLe]

Pretty well for one year now.

[ken6217]

What size is the tank?
Ken

[ccampbell57]

That looks like a short tank...I foresee lots of issues with many of the fish in there...

[ken6217]

This is what I'm thinking. Not too fair for the fish.
Ken

[jwm2k3]

Lots of activity! I like the choice of fish. I bet the algae growth is overwhelming due to the tank having all clear glass panels and being right next to a large sliding glass door. Looks good!

[evilspaz]

What is that a 150G cube? Are you out of your mind?

[LPino]

The fish look great! I hope it works out for you.

[iceman79]

Fish seem happy none of them look beat up a larger tank would be ideal but if its not broke dont fix it . But i would keep your triggers fed they might get a bit nasty when hungry and attack ie eat your other fish

[RouDaiLLe]

:dance:That looks like a short tank...I foresee lots of issues with many of the fish in there...

I have a very good skimmer. The fish are in this tank for several years. I am not sure your comment is correct!

later!

[RouDaiLLe]

What is that a 150G cube? Are you out of your mind?

I am not sure to understand what you are saying! but i am not ouf mind and fish are happy!!!
The tank is 200 Gallons.


To all other, thanks for your comment :) I am hapy that you like it ;)
later

[ccampbell57]

Please tell me how a good skimmer makes up for fish that grow up to 15" in a 48" tank?

As I stated, there WILL be issues with the fish. It is not a matter of if, it is when...

[RouDaiLLe]

Hello Chris, the skimmer is ATB Large cone skimmer :
http://www.atbskimmers.com/products/largeview.php?category=Cone%20Skimmers&item=Large%20Cone%20Skimmer

Very good skimmer!

But i likee your pictogram, is it the clarionensis fish you have in your tank? :)

Once again, i am kind of experimented with all these fish, and with a lot a water change there ain't any problem. I may remind you that there is no coral except an entacmea quadricolor that does well even if i have some N03 and PO4.

But i agree with you that a tank like this with no maintenance would probably fail!

Concerning the size of the fish, when they become to big, i put them to the museum close to my house. However today the only one concerned with this procedure is the Cheilinus lunulatus as trigger fish don't reach big size in aquarium.



later

[graveyardworm]

Once again, i am kind of experimented with all these fish,

Experimenting? Not very fair to the fish involved.

Concerning the size of the fish, when they become to big, i put them to the museum close to my house.

Have you talked to the museum already? They are willing to take in your fish that you already know are going to get too big?

[RouDaiLLe]

Experimenting? Not very fair to the fish involved.

Without being selfish, do you think that the fish seems unhappy?
I guess that when you look at the tank, nothing seems unfair for the fish. But i understand & appreciate your concern.


Have you talked to the museum already? They are willing to take in your fish that you already know are going to get too big?

Yeah they agree, museum are always interested with not common species. FYI, they already have a lot of previous fish of mine! like E. flavocaeruleus, some naso and stuff like this.

[billsreef]

trigger fish don't reach big size in aquarium.

They do when cared for under conditions that allow for proper growth. I've seen quite few long time aquarium specimens of triggers that have started out small and peaceful and matured into large full sized and aggressive adults.

[popper231]

give this guy a break, and stop biiotching at him..the fishes are doing great. he have it for several years. his generousity to donate the fish to museum sound like he'd done it before.

he experimented with them before now he knows how to handle this school!!!

it only look crowded because the video doesn't show the entire tank!!! it was feeding time, so all the fishes gather to munch on the food, therefore other spaces on the tank were not int he video!

[ccampbell57]

Yes it is my second clarion 18 months ago when is was a juvinille.

Your skimmer is able to handle the bio-load I am not questioning that. My concern is that you have a little amount of space for a LOT of large fish.

Your clarion and passer will each grow VERY large.

Here are the fish that I forsee being issues in that size of a tank:
- Sohal tang - this fish is arguably the most aggressive fish that you can buy in our hobby due to its size, speed, and the size and use of its blades on its tail. I have seen these fish in 500g tanks tear gashes in other large fish with a single swipe.
- Clown Tang - not one, but 2 of a level 5 aggressive trigger. These guys are beautiful and very common, but will turn on a dime...I know from experience when my 5.5" clown trigger started to relentlessly attack my angels after being in the tank with them with no issue for over 12 months.
- Golden Puffer - these animals grow to over 2ft in lenth. They are notorious for "experimental" tasting on other fish in the tank for no reason. There is a member here (friend of mine) that has a Golden in his 450 and it bit a large maroon clown in half for no reason.
- Procupine puffer - See above, but they grow to over 3ft

I am not dogging you with the fact that the fish look bad. They look great and in great health. I am just stating from my own experience, experience of others, and a lot of research on various species, that your small 150g tank is not the place for those fish.

If you have the $ to buy a clarion and an ATB large cone, why not buy a large tank that can support those animals longer than 12-18 months?

[OSTguy]

People experiment in the Lighting section with their corals without any negative comments when they see their corals shrinking under improper lighting conditions. Experimentation to the point of killing/suffering is the problem.

[RouDaiLLe]

They do when cared for under conditions that allow for proper growth. I've seen quite few long time aquarium specimens of triggers that have started out small and peaceful and matured into large full sized and aggressive adults.

I have to agree with you on this point, even if clowntrigger fish does not get as big as in the nature in tank what ever its size.
We are experimenting that with the museum close to me they have for now few years some balistoides conspicillum in a 100.000 gallon tank and they don't get more than 25 cm.
Plus i would add that B. consipicillum just grow slow as a lot of Rhinecanthus.

These comments would not apply to Balistes punctatus, viridescens flavimarginaus, vetula ... that get big whatever the condition.

[ken6217]

Good choice on the skimmer.
Ken

[RouDaiLLe]

Yes it is my second clarion 18 months ago when is was a juvinille.

Your skimmer is able to handle the bio-load I am not questioning that. My concern is that you have a little amount of space for a LOT of large fish.

Your clarion and passer will each grow VERY large.


Angelfish such as plitops member, does not get that big in tank even in nature. They don't barely reach 25 cm. Mine measure 20 cm, i guess it's honest for fish raised in a tank.

To be honest, with you the passer is here since sept 2006, i got it juvenile he has entirely changed his color. But i don't think he will grow further more.


Here are the fish that I forsee being issues in that size of a tank:
- Sohal tang - this fish is arguably the most aggressive fish that you can buy in our hobby due to its size, speed, and the size and use of its blades on its tail. I have seen these fish in 500g tanks tear gashes in other large fish with a single swipe.
- Clown Tang - not one, but 2 of a level 5 aggressive trigger. These guys are beautiful and very common, but will turn on a dime...I know from experience when my 5.5" clown trigger started to relentlessly attack my angels after being in the tank with them with no issue for over 12 months.
- Golden Puffer - these animals grow to over 2ft in lenth. They are notorious for "experimental" tasting on other fish in the tank for no reason. There is a member here (friend of mine) that has a Golden in his 450 and it bit a large maroon clown in half for no reason.
- Procupine puffer - See above, but they grow to over 3ft
.

With the population of fish i have, i can not have any not agressive fish, it would die, killed by other.
That's why, I chose them all from agressive kind.

Also, please note that the Arothron meleagris (golden puffer) reaches only 1 ft and half (45 cm), mine is already 1 ft!
The porcupine puffer i have is from the Diodon Holacanthus kind. It does not go over 1 ft in the nature.

Agressiveness depends of the fish itself, FYI, the most agressive in the tank are the H. passer + Melychtis niger. Other do very nice until now! Hopefully it will go on!



I am not dogging you with the fact that the fish look bad. They look great and in great health. I am just stating from my own experience, experience of others, and a lot of research on various species, that your small 150g tank is not the place for those fish.


It's 200 gallon in total! I appreciate that you share your experience with me! Hopefully, it will do better that the experiences you used to have.


If you have the $ to buy a clarion and an ATB large cone, why not buy a large tank that can support those animals longer than 12-18 months?

My flat is too small, else i would have a tank 5 times bigger!

It's very nice to meet people that also have a clarion angelfish, can you give us some picture i would really appreciate seeing your maintenance condition! Many thanks

[billsreef]

We are experimenting that with the museum close to me they have for now few years some balistoides conspicillum in a 100.000 gallon tank and they don't get more than 25 cm.

That seems kind of small. I'd expect something is going on in regards to their care or possibly even initial collection that is leading to such stunting of growth.

[RouDaiLLe]

Good choice on the skimmer.
Ken

Thanks ken!

[s.reef]

Nice tank! Nyaquatics has a nice Juv Clarion in right now, tempting :)

[Monkeyfish]

What do you feed the angler?

[surfthreeeleven]

+1 for nice tank... I personally do not think it's that overcrowded with the fish he has at their current size. (As long as your water parameters are really, really good) If they are going to be rehomed to a fellow members tank when they do outgrow the tank I see no problem (or the museum). I definitely wouldn't add any more fish at this point - and just be responsible when they outgrow your tank. Several species that are claimed to grow quickly generally seem to grow quite a bit slower in the home aquarium. I have a regal & yellow tang I've had for 2.5 years and they seem to grow quite a bit slower than everyone swore they would.

Some ppl plan their livestock to stay permanently for their duration of each fish's life in one specific tank. Other ppl purchase them small, and either sell them to fellow reefers/aquarium enthusiasts, or return them to lfs when they grow too large for the tank. Either way you will never be able to provide for them what the ocean does. Thousands of miles of reef in the wild, one tiny glass box in your house. Another 12-24" in aquarium glass means absolutely nothing compared to the ocean. However, please keep in mind I am saying this from a conservative standpoint & agree with not overcrowding tanks - but I think for now you are ok.

[surfthreeeleven]

...and lets not forget most all of us tragically suffer from bigger tank syndrome. I've noticed most of the fellow reefers in my area over the last few years seem to acquire a bigger tank about once every 1 - 2 years, lol. Funny how it happens, but I'll bet you end with a bigger tank in the next few years.

[RouDaiLLe]

What do you feed the angler?

Live ghost shrimp or piece of fish.

I have two anglers in the sump, One antennarius pictus (the red one) (well i think it's a pictus, but it may be a A. commerson) and one antennarius maculatus red+white.
Both are eating dead fish today after a long long long... adaptation time....

:jester:

[evilspaz]

To be honest IMO the fish dont look that happy to me.

[RouDaiLLe]

...and lets not forget most all of us tragically suffer from bigger tank syndrome. I've noticed most of the fellow reefers in my area over the last few years seem to acquire a bigger tank about once every 1 - 2 years, lol. Funny how it happens, but I'll bet you end with a bigger tank in the next few years.

First of all thanks!


Well you know, i think that we are all addicted to the bigger tank syndrome. A tank is always too small after few years... or few months for some people. When i change of flatt, i will definitely try to get a longer one. :)

[RouDaiLLe]

Nice tank! Nyaquatics has a nice Juv Clarion in right now, tempting :)

Yeah very tempting but the price:):rollface:

[RouDaiLLe]

To be honest IMO the fish dont look that happy to me.

Well i guess we need to see your fish ( http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1740681&page=3), to see how happy they are :) j/k

Be sure they do very well! Please tell me what makes you think that they are not happy :)

[brookers]

any chance of a fts buddy ?

[RouDaiLLe]

Hey,
Sorry; what do you mean by "fts" ?

[brookers]

fts- full tank shot ! for what its worth i think your fish look great.

[AquaKnight]

What's the wrasse in the back, a Slingjaw or a Broomtail?

[evilspaz]

Well i guess we need to see your fish ( http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1740681&page=3), to see how happy they are :) j/k

Be sure they do very well! Please tell me what makes you think that they are not happy :)Its crowded, not much room to establish territory‘s, etc. And at the moment I think my fish are happier then yours. :fish1: Whats the footprint of the tank?

[WuHT]

To be honest IMO the fish dont look that happy to me.

buddy you've been jumping over this guy and now you suddenly identify how happy fish are by 1 youtube video.

Let's not pull out some tang-police tactics

[ziyaadb]

i think it looks great man, all fish look healthy and full of life. ideally a bigger tank is ALWAYS better.

[RouDaiLLe]

Its crowded, not much room to establish territory‘s, etc. And at the moment I think my fish are happier then yours. :fish1: Whats the footprint of the tank?


Hello,

For the Myripristis you have it should have more rocks as it is a nocturn fish + in the nature they live in group together. If you want it to be happier, you should find him some mates and some rocks!



Concerning the footprint of my tank, it's 1.4 m x 0.70 m x 0.70 m.

later

[RouDaiLLe]

What's the wrasse in the back, a Slingjaw or a Broomtail?

Yeah it's a broomtail from red sea, Cheilinus lunulatus. i guess mine is a small male as he is getting a lot of color those days.

[evilspaz]

Concerning the footprint of my tank, it's 1.4 m x 0.70 m x 0.70 m.
Im surprised im one of the few people that think a Sohal, two Clown triggers, Golden puffer, Porc puffer, a Passer angel and many more don’t belong in a 41/2' long tank. my Myripristis has a cave of his own to keep out of the light.

[johno4]

The fish look good, but as others have said you simply have too many fish in too small of a tank. This is all in my opinion of course, I think its pretty mean to have fish that get large and super aggresive confined in a 4ft tank. Good luck, I hope you can somehow defy the odds and keep them successfully in that tank.

[Stuart60611]

Im surprised im one of the few people that think a Sohal, two Clown triggers, Golden puffer, Porc puffer, a Passer angel and many more don’t belong in a 41/2' long tank. my Myripristis has a cave of his own to keep out of the light.

I hardly think that you are in the minority here, but how can you seriously reason with anyone who legitimately believes for a moment that this is appropriate? I think many people here are simply avoiding dignifying this practice with a response to avoid getting into the kind of negative and non-productive accusatory posting war that often develops from these unfortunate situations.

[sunfishh]

I think the tank looks great :thumbsup:
I am also glad you realize the fish can not live in your tank forever and you have found a better home for them

[RouDaiLLe]

Im surprised im one of the few people that think a Sohal, two Clown triggers, Golden puffer, Porc puffer, a Passer angel and many more don’t belong in a 41/2' long tank. my Myripristis has a cave of his own to keep out of the light.

:)

[RouDaiLLe]

I think the tank looks great :thumbsup:
I am also glad you realize the fish can not live in your tank forever and you have found a better home for them

Thanks dude!

[RouDaiLLe]

I hardly think that you are in the minority here, but how can you seriously reason with anyone who legitimately believes for a moment that this is appropriate? I think many people here are simply avoiding dignifying this practice with a response to avoid getting into the kind of negative and non-productive acusatory posting war that often develops from these unfortunate situations.

I guess you know what you are talking about :)

Just respect the way people pratices our passion. It can change from someone to another one. The only thing that matter is that fish are healthy and seems happy (even if we can not talk about happyness for animals as it is a human feeling)

later

[tcmfish]

Looks good! But where are the reds and blues? Everything is yellow!

[Bonta]

Kinda off topic but
I like the Angler in the sump ;)

Very orange.

[RouDaiLLe]

Looks good! But where are the reds and blues? Everything is yellow!

I totally agree with you! I completely missed the point!
Hopefully my wrasse Will become green and blue!!
Let s cross our finger :)

i used to have some blue with a naso vlaminigii but i had to give it to thé museum close to my House as it was 1.5 feet!

Later!

[evilspaz]

Just respect the way people pratices our passion.
Sometimes you cant respect the way other people practice our hobby because there being cruel to the animals there keeping, and you can see what there doing is not right.

[RouDaiLLe]

Sometimes you cant respect the way other people practice our hobby because there being cruel to the animals there keeping, and you can see what there doing is not right.

True, but this case ain't applying here.:dance:

[evilspaz]

True, but this case ain't applying here.:dance:Why do I bother...

[jwm2k3]

Why do I bother...

My thoughts exactly. Give it up already.


Love that Broomtail Wrasse!

[RouDaiLLe]

Love that Broomtail Wrasse!


Oh yeah! The cheilinus and the anglers are my favorites :)

[ken6217]

I am not sure to understand what you are saying! but i am not ouf mind and fish are happy!!!
The tank is 200 Gallons.


To all other, thanks for your comment :) I am hapy that you like it ;)
later

How do you figure your tank is 200g? It is not even close.
Ken

[jwm2k3]

Oh yeah! The cheilinus and the anglers are my favorites :)

I once tried to add a very large broomtail into my 450gal which had a very well established Harliquin tusk.....bad move. It was world war 3 in the tank. I had to remove the broomtail immediately, he would not have lasted more than 20 minutes. Funny thing is, the harliquin tusk was a good 2 to 3 inches smaller and not nearly as fat as the broomtail. I would say in trying to remove the broomtail in that whirlwind I lost at least 10 gallons of water on the walls and floor. Terrible. I have not tried to house another broomtail since then. I sold the house that has the 450 in it, so I no longer have it anymore.

[brookers]

How do you figure your tank is 200g? It is not even close.
Ken

useing the tank calculater his tank holds- 686 ltr / 173 g us / 140ish g uk

[tcmfish]

Convert the measurements to inches multiply the length times width times height and divide by 231. That will give you US gallons.

Why we are so worried about this number I don't know.

[RouDaiLLe]

useing the tank calculater his tank holds- 686 ltr / 173 g us / 140ish g uk


Yeah it's 173 us gallon.
When I said 200 gallon in total, i included the sump which is about 40 Us gallon. The volume total of water is the parameter that gives you the stability of your tank.

[RouDaiLLe]

I once tried to add a very large broomtail into my 450gal which had a very well established Harliquin tusk.....bad move. It was world war 3 in the tank.

Those fish are very hardy and are very smart & curious. Therefore they take rapidly advantage on other fish. So they can make a WWIII in your tank, np!

For the moment, mine is calm, let's see later!

[brookers]

hey bud, i have not critisized you or your tank. in fact in my previous post i commented on how good i thought your fish look. in my opinion, its your business what you do or put in your tank !

i think the problem some of the other guys have, is the amount of fish you are keeping in the space you have, they think you are overstocked.
i agree that the greater the water volume the more stability, but even if you had a 1000 gal system and your fish only had 173 g tank to swim in, you would still be overcrowded.

to argue my case for my previous post, when someone asked what size tank you had these fish in, you replied " in a 200 " .
good luck with your tank in the future !

[surfthreeeleven]

Convert the measurements to inches multiply the length times width times height and divide by 231. That will give you US gallons.

Why we are so worried about this number I don't know.

+1! Other than ability to keep up with bioload (nitrate/phosphate parameters) it doesn't mean much... The tank footprint means much much more in terms of proper "space" in the aquaria hobby (which is still hilarious considering 99.9% of captive saltwater fish are captured from the ocean). The Great Barrier Reef ALONE is more than 135,000 sq. miles of "space", and most aquarists think they are doing the fish they keep a huge favor by adding another 1-3 feet of glass box space. If you stop and use common sense for a minute - it is comical that we constantly argue over tank size when most household aquariums rarely exceed 6-8ft in length. Since fish cannot talk to express the levels of their "happiness" with us, the accepted stocking levels (which still seem to greatly vary) in the hobby have been established on the basis of keeping the stress levels low enough for aquaria-born disease/parasite prevention. I guarantee you that if fish could talk, the single chromis fish kept in a 10ft 700g tank would be quite "unhappy" about his new home.

[IwannaClarion]

I love the clarion but agree the tank is too small and over stocked.

[Sardaukar]

+1! Other than ability to keep up with bioload (nitrate/phosphate parameters) it doesn't mean much... The tank footprint means much much more in terms of proper "space" in the aquaria hobby (which is still hilarious considering 99.9% of captive saltwater fish are captured from the ocean). The Great Barrier Reef ALONE is more than 135,000 sq. miles of "space", and most aquarists think they are doing the fish they keep a huge favor by adding another 1-3 feet of glass box space. If you stop and use common sense for a minute - it is comical that we constantly argue over tank size when most household aquariums rarely exceed 6-8ft in length. Since fish cannot talk to express the levels of their "happiness" with us, the accepted stocking levels (which still seem to greatly vary) in the hobby have been established on the basis of keeping the stress levels low enough for aquaria-born disease/parasite prevention. I guarantee you that if fish could talk, the single chromis fish kept in a 10ft 700g tank would be quite "unhappy" about his new home.

With all due respect, I think you are wrong. You have to keep in mind that fish are simply fish. I don't think any fish has ever been bothered by the fac that they cruise the same patch of reef tank 24/7. Many fish either swim pretty slowly (like the Chromis you mentioned) or tend to swim in place/in a very small area (clownfish, some anthias). Tank size beyond ensuring enough room for social territories and manuvering room, doesn't really matter.

Other fish like big tangs/triggers swim must faster/constantly and for them, having to turn around repeatedly because they run out of swimming room in 2 seconds is indeed stressful.

A blue green chromis in a 10 foot tank will be just fine as they slowly flit about and often hover - an 8" trigger or a 5" sohal, swimming rapidly and in constant motion in a 4 foot tank is another story.

[tcmfish]

I am not disagreeing, but... ;) why do those fish need to swim that much in the wild? Food. Tangs need to graze they have to find algae to keep them fat and they can only do that by covering a large area. Triggers need to hunt for small fish and inverts to support their large size.

If they are getting there food in a small area why do they need to swim so much? I would argue that if they could find all their food needs in a small area that they wouldn't swim so much.

But fish can't get as large in a small tank, which is why I always recommend a larger tank because it stunts their growth. The stunting in growth could be related to not swimming as much though, or nutrients in the water, hormones, social interactions, and I'm sure other factors.

[RouDaiLLe]

If they are getting there food in a small area why do they need to swim so much? I would argue that if they could find all their food needs in a small area that they wouldn't swim so much.



+1!

I would just add something else to support your theory concerning big predator such as triggers/puffer, grouper, big wrasses and any other "big " predator. What do these predators do after eating?

They go and have a nap in their home/hiding place. Then when they get out, they start again checking what they can eat again.
Concerning the "non-big predator fish" such as small fish, tangs,... they are always in activity, because they eat small portion with a very light nutritive/calorie value.


This is a kind of caricature but this is how it basically works
later

PS : I also agree on the fact that the grotwh of the fish is bettr in a bigger place due to various stuffs as you mentioneed above.

[surfthreeeleven]

With all due respect, I think you are wrong. You have to keep in mind that fish are simply fish. I don't think any fish has ever been bothered by the fac that they cruise the same patch of reef tank 24/7. Many fish either swim pretty slowly (like the Chromis you mentioned) or tend to swim in place/in a very small area (clownfish, some anthias). Tank size beyond ensuring enough room for social territories and manuvering room, doesn't really matter.

Other fish like big tangs/triggers swim must faster/constantly and for them, having to turn around repeatedly because they run out of swimming room in 2 seconds is indeed stressful.

A blue green chromis in a 10 foot tank will be just fine as they slowly flit about and often hover - an 8" trigger or a 5" sohal, swimming rapidly and in constant motion in a 4 foot tank is another story.



Ugh - I'm confused if you are agree or disagree, lol. Most of what you posted sounds like you agree, but I'm not sure I follow what you are trying to say. The point I was trying to make is that when you consider the environment the marine fish we keep are taken from, its comical to listen to ppl argue about tank size in comparison. For fun, take an empty 300 gallon tank diving with you to Indonesia or Australia, and set it down somewhere in the reef and look at it. Then I think you will understand the gravity of what I am saying.

[surfthreeeleven]

I am not disagreeing, but... ;) why do those fish need to swim that much in the wild? Food. Tangs need to graze they have to find algae to keep them fat and they can only do that by covering a large area. Triggers need to hunt for small fish and inverts to support their large size.

If they are getting there food in a small area why do they need to swim so much? I would argue that if they could find all their food needs in a small area that they wouldn't swim so much.

But fish can't get as large in a small tank, which is why I always recommend a larger tank because it stunts their growth. The stunting in growth could be related to not swimming as much though, or nutrients in the water, hormones, social interactions, and I'm sure other factors.

Agree completely with growth statement in home aquaria, disagree with the point you are trying to make regarding fish swimming only for food. In fact, by asking why the fish need to swim so much if food is readily available in the home aquaria, you are saying it's pretty much fine to keep any size fish in any tank. While I know that's not REALLY what you are trying to say, that's where the argument comes in - how much lateral swimming space for each fish. And, that's what my long post above was about - people arguing over an additional 1 - 3ft of tank size. If the argument was over a 300 gallon vs. a 3,000 gallon tank that would be a completely different discussion.

[surfthreeeleven]

However - no sense in having this argument that's been had a billion times, LOL. Nice tank RouDaille, sorry for opening that can of worms on your post. :)

[iceman79]

No matter how big your tanks are it will never compete with the size of the ocean so no matter what you will always be putting the fish into a smaller space

[Stuart60611]

I simply cannot resist responding to some of the misplaced views stated in this thread. Yes, it is clear that we cannot maintain conditions in our small aquariums which are comprable to those of the ocean. However, that does not mean that we cannot maintain environments in our aquariums which are comfortable for our fish in which they exhibit "happiness". And yes, I think this is somethng we can observe relative to fish. I think a fair way to determine, in part, whether a fish is "happy" is in addition to the fish being healthy and well fed is to determine whether the fish can go about its life in our aquariums unstressed and have its basic physical and psychological needs satisfied. At minimum, a happy fish is one who is not stressed constantly and continually swimming about desperately and unsuccessfully trying to find shelter to avoid tankmates the fish fears and is able to maintian some territories (as they do in the ocean), such as at least exclusive and reasonably spaced apart areas to sleep and associate as shelter.

I cannot see how this is a debateable point because suitable shelter is a primary need for all animal life which no animal can be "happy" without. Fish are stressed and unhappy when in close proximity to other fish perceived as serious threats from whom they cannot escape or avoid, and anyone who has owned fish for extended periods has observed this.

Now, I know that many will respond by saying you are kiding yourself thinking that you can maintain a large enough environment in an aquarium which emulates the ocean sufficiently to create a truly natural environment for our fish. And I do not quarrel with this sentiment generally. However, for any of us who are experienced keeping marine fish, I think we all know exactly what I am talking about and can tell the difference between fish who are "happy" in their appropriately stocked aquarium and those "unhappy" in a system too densely populated by too many large and incompatable fish who in nature would preceive the others as serious threats and are unable to relax and establish appropriate shelter.

You can keep several dogs perpetually confined in a small closet, feed them well, and they can look healthy and even chubby and well fed. I doubt anyone who has owned dogs and treated them humainly would argue that dogs kept in this fashion are living "happy" lives. Now, those who keep our dogs in our backyard are certainly not providing our dogs the amount of space that they would get in nature. But we can tell when our dogs are happy with enough space to roam in our backyards as opposed to when they are unhappy due to being unduly confined.

Looking at the stock list and size of this system, I do not know how anyone can seriously think that these fish are "happy". Many, if not all of these fish, do not have the space to call a sufficient area of the system as their exclusive home and have numerous other fish (some of whom in the wild would not tolerate each other) in perpetual close proximity whom they gravely fear or dislike and whom they cannot hide from nor avoid.

I like pushing the envelope in this hobby too and am no stranger to streching stocking limits of a system. But at some point overstocking the aquarium goes beyond pushing the envelope of the hobby and rises to the level of animal abuse.

[tcmfish]

I don't know the point of that rant, but please tell me which fish in the aquarium above would not tolerate each other in the wild?

I agree the tank should be larger, but there are plans in place for those fish that get too large, and right now they all look healthy and are "happy". I have seen fish in much worse condition, not necessarily tank wise, but healthy wise but people don't tend to care as long as the tank looks good. Like skinny tangs in a nice reef tank. Also all the fish in the video aren't harassing each other and their fins aren't torn or anything despite the rough community, so I think these fish are in good hands.

[Stuart60611]

I don't know the point of that rant, but please tell me which fish in the aquarium above would not tolerate each other in the wild?

I agree the tank should be larger, but there are plans in place for those fish that get too large, and right now they all look healthy and are "happy". I have seen fish in much worse condition, not necessarily tank wise, but healthy wise but people don't tend to care as long as the tank looks good. Like skinny tangs in a nice reef tank. Also all the fish in the video aren't harassing each other and their fins aren't torn or anything despite the rough community, so I think these fish are in good hands.

The multiple clown triggers, mixed clowns, angels, puffers, etc. would not tolerate each other is such close proximity in the wild. The point of my rant is rather obvious. It is sort of sickening to read the multiple posts on this thread approving of this stocking practice. It is troubling to me that others who visit this forum would strive to emulate the same. As far as these fish being in good hands, I must disagree with that contention simply by the fact that a conscientious caregiver would never house fish in this fashion.

[tcmfish]

If they are fine together now, how could they not be fine in the wild? Your argument doesn't really hold there. I agree the fish should have a larger tank long term, but really are the fish doing that bad?

[Stuart60611]

They are surviving now. I think that is much different than being fine or happy. Like I posted, a dog who has no physical injuries and is well fed but perpetually kept in a closet may look fine also. Is it humane? Abusing an animal and then stating that it is ok to do so because the animal is healthy does not legitimize the abuse. It is obvious that the keeper of this system knows what he is doing (which to me makes it far less morally defensible) by simply being able to keep such a ludicrous stock list in this system for any period of time. I sure hope that others who read this thread do not get the idea that they could do the same because odds are most who would try would fail miserably.

[RouDaiLLe]

You can keep several dogs perpetually confined in a small closet, feed them well, and they can look healthy and even chubby and well fed. I doubt anyone who has owned dogs and treated them humainly would argue that dogs kept in this fashion are living "happy" lives. Now, those who keep our dogs in our backyard are certainly not providing our dogs the amount of space that they would get in nature. But we can tell when our dogs are happy with enough space to roam in our backyards as opposed to when they are unhappy due to being unduly confined.


hey, with all the due respect do not mix mammals & fish! A lot of people "mammalize" too much fish. If fish are healthy then they are ok!
If they were not, you could see some disease such as HLLE and stuff like this.

later

[RouDaiLLe]

The multiple clown triggers, mixed clowns, angels, puffers, etc. would not tolerate each other is such close proximity in the wild.


In this tank, i have a pair of trigger fish that would live together in the nature and also a pair of centropyge that would live together.

If they were not a pair, they would just killed each other as you said.

I don't see why puffer, angels, .... would not tolerate each other in the wild, they are not from the same kind and would obvioulsy tolerate. They feed from different foods and are in no ways competitor. I guess, you have done very few diving or have seen few documentary in the nature to state the above message, even if off course the volume are biggers.

However, i understand that several angelfish or tangs in the same tank can create a lot of problem, because in the nature they would not bear each other without a proximity.
What is risky today in my tank is H. clarionensis vs H. passer. This is the only annoying compatibilty point.



later

[iceman79]

Most of you people need to get a life and leave this poor guy alone its not like he doesnt know what hes doing

[Stuart60611]

Why would fish not deserve the same humane treatement as a mammal would deserve? Fish, like mammals, have both physical and phsychological needs. The position that fish don't mind being abused because they are lower on the evolutionary scale is completely baseless and demonstrates a complete lack of respect for life. Moreover, the fact that your two clown triggers have yet to kill each other does not in any way demonstrate that they are a happy pair. In fact, based on the crowding in this system, I would opine that one of the reasons that they have not killed each other is that they have so many other fish to worry about in the area that they just cannot focus their aggression on each other and must expend all of their energy just trying to avoid the many other potential threats.

You can come up with any contrived and self-serving justification for why you maintain your fish in this reprehensible manner, but at the end of the day, it is wrong and cannot be justified. There is not enough water volume to keep singly many, if not most, of the fish in this system --let alone all of them together. I have taken considerable time out of my life to make these postings because I feel it is important enough to document how wrong this practice is for those who read this thread so as to hopefully convince others not to go down this path. It is bad enough that we all take fish out of the ocean and keep them in glass boxes for our pleasure. But to do so in a reckless and irresponsible manner so as to not care for their most fundamental and basic needs is respulsive and should not be cheered by a forum dedicated to the responsible practice of this hobby.

[iceman79]

Im not trying to promote or cheer this topic on i also agree that there is too many fish in the tank my thing is im just tired of people bashing this dude for what he is doing. People are different in everything thing they do which makes us all different so one person may see a 75 gallon tank and say hmmm i could put ten fish in there they will be fine and then another person would say i think ill only put 4 fish in my 75. Im just saying people are people and each persons views of a overstocked tank are gonna vary.

[Stuart60611]

Iceman:

I agree that people are different and that there are varying views as to when a system becomes overstocked which reasonable minds can differ. Moreover, I will concede that just because you overstock your tank does not mean that you are abusing your fish.

However, there is undeniable and objectively determinable point when one overstocks their tank to such a ridiculous degree that it amounts to animal abuse. I think this system is clear example. I feel the keeper of this system deserves no restraint showing how wrong and over the top his stocking practices are, particularly when he continues to believe that the way he operates his system is acceptable and humane.

[jnc914]

:sleep: I smell a thread closing soon..... Stuart60611- You are beating a dead horse here. You can only control how you take care of your own fish. People will continue to do what they want in regards to how they stock their tank, regardless of how many times they read about it in a thread. It is their money and time, let them do as they please. Although you have made several good points (most of which I tend to agree with), your posts are starting to become preachy and a bit pompous. I don't think the original poster is going to have some sort of epiphany and suddenly change how he is keeping his livestock.

[RouDaiLLe]

It's your right to think i am doing bad, but some of my fish have more than 5 years today in this tank and in another tank they have something like 10 years. I think this is the only valid proof of a steady tank!

[Stuart60611]

jnc914:

Your points are well taken, and I have pretty much said all I wanted to say, admitedly, perhaps, in a somewhat unintended pompous way, for which I appologize. However, I did not make these posts in what I agree would be a foolish attempt to convince the keeper of this system to change how he maintains his tank. Rather, I made these posting after reading so many other people here cheering how great they thought this system was and in the hopes of convincing others not to try to emulate what they see here. Until I made my postings, pretty much, with a few exceptions, all that you read in this thread were comments voicing approval for this system. I think it is real important that the other perspective be depicted here also so that inexperienced people in the hobby who regularly visit this forum do not get the idea that this is the appropriate way to maintain a system.

[JHemdal]

Ahhh well,

I've been sitting on my hands here, but that becomes painful after awhile (grin), so here is a revisiting of some of what I've written on this topic.

One of my recent projects was an attempt to quantify swimming space allocation in aquarium fish. The problem is that I made of the logistical error of having the paper published in a magazine which is not readily available outside of Great Britain:
For Good Measure - Calculating the Swimming Space Requirements for Fishes in Aquariums. Practical Fishkeeping Magazine. Issue 7, July, 2009

So, while I can't republish that information here, I can talk about some of the other issues that have arisen in this thread:

The use of "happy fish" in the mammal paradigm is problematic. Here is my working definition of "appropriate aquarium husbandry", and I say this equates to "happy" for a captive fish:

"If the fish shows no signs of chronic disease or abnormality, exhibits normal feeding and reproductive behaviors and most importantly, exhibits a normal lifespan compared to that of wild counterparts (minus the predation that wild fish incur of course!), then there is no other metric we can use to determine if a certain suite of husbandry techniques are suitable or not."

Now - people can disagree based on their feelings or opinions, but I haven't had ANYONE refute this based on observable metrics.

The entire editorial is here:

http://microcosmaqx.typepad.com/jay_hemdal/2009/01/beware-the-tang-police.html


Jay

[brookers]

why dont you leave this guy alone now. the point has been made, so why keep banging on about. people are going to be to afraid to post pics or info on their tanks if this carries on !

[iceman79]

Im overstocking my tank right now and getting my camera ready as we speak . Just kidding wow this stirs up more drama than why bio balls are bad lol

[brookers]

see what can be done with just a 30 second video !!!

[RouDaiLLe]

Lol!
To the start, i was just thinking about showing a video for entertaining people :) but it's a disaster, everyone is very stuck to his concept!!

By the way jay, very nice article you wrote.

later

[Terra Ferma]

Yes it is my second clarion 18 months ago when is was a juvinille.

Your skimmer is able to handle the bio-load I am not questioning that. My concern is that you have a little amount of space for a LOT of large fish.

Your clarion and passer will each grow VERY large.

Here are the fish that I forsee being issues in that size of a tank:
- Sohal tang - this fish is arguably the most aggressive fish that you can buy in our hobby due to its size, speed, and the size and use of its blades on its tail. I have seen these fish in 500g tanks tear gashes in other large fish with a single swipe.
- Clown Tang - not one, but 2 of a level 5 aggressive trigger. These guys are beautiful and very common, but will turn on a dime...I know from experience when my 5.5" clown trigger started to relentlessly attack my angels after being in the tank with them with no issue for over 12 months.
- Golden Puffer - these animals grow to over 2ft in lenth. They are notorious for "experimental" tasting on other fish in the tank for no reason. There is a member here (friend of mine) that has a Golden in his 450 and it bit a large maroon clown in half for no reason.
- Procupine puffer - See above, but they grow to over 3ft

I am not dogging you with the fact that the fish look bad. They look great and in great health. I am just stating from my own experience, experience of others, and a lot of research on various species, that your small 150g tank is not the place for those fish.

If you have the $ to buy a clarion and an ATB large cone, why not buy a large tank that can support those animals longer than 12-18 months?

I've never seen or heard of a Porcupine Puffer over 18" or so. Where did you get 3' from?

[RouDaiLLe]

I've never seen or heard of a Porcupine Puffer over 18" or so. Where did you get 3' from?

Probably mixing with Didon hystrix that reaches 70 cm ( a bit more of 2 feet).

Regards,

[surfthreeeleven]

Ahhh well,

I've been sitting on my hands here, but that becomes painful after awhile (grin), so here is a revisiting of some of what I've written on this topic.

One of my recent projects was an attempt to quantify swimming space allocation in aquarium fish. The problem is that I made of the logistical error of having the paper published in a magazine which is not readily available outside of Great Britain:
For Good Measure - Calculating the Swimming Space Requirements for Fishes in Aquariums. Practical Fishkeeping Magazine. Issue 7, July, 2009

So, while I can't republish that information here, I can talk about some of the other issues that have arisen in this thread:

The use of "happy fish" in the mammal paradigm is problematic. Here is my working definition of "appropriate aquarium husbandry", and I say this equates to "happy" for a captive fish:

"If the fish shows no signs of chronic disease or abnormality, exhibits normal feeding and reproductive behaviors and most importantly, exhibits a normal lifespan compared to that of wild counterparts (minus the predation that wild fish incur of course!), then there is no other metric we can use to determine if a certain suite of husbandry techniques are suitable or not."

Now - people can disagree based on their feelings or opinions, but I haven't had ANYONE refute this based on observable metrics.

The entire editorial is here:

http://microcosmaqx.typepad.com/jay_hemdal/2009/01/beware-the-tang-police.html


Jay


Jay - I read the other post and wanted to say I thought the info you posted was very informative & dead-on in regards to marine aquaria vs. natural reef. --Sorry if some of my posts on this thread sounded like plagiarism :lolspin: - the bit regarding the only measurements being disease/parasite prevention, etc. Anyways, that is an excellent point regarding reproduction as a measurement.... There are so many opinions on this forum, and the reproduction issue is a blunt fact. Hence why I do not think that the captive wild-caught chromis is 700 gallon home aquaria is perfectly "happy" vs. roaming the natural reefs. We are able to keep them alive, keep them eating, and do an adequate job of preventing aquaria born disease, but we are not able to provide an environment in which most of them reproduce. Again I say, you will never be able to re-create the ocean or provide the same environment in home aquaria.

...and +1,000,000 on ceasing the bashing to his tank!! Dead horse, ::yawn::

[Beaun]

Probably mixing with Didon hystrix that reaches 70 cm ( a bit more of 2 feet).

Regards,

I've seen a puffer in a fish shop that was well over 2' in length. I believe it was closely related to Diodon holocanthus, but I could not get a specific ID on it. I think the problem with the length discussion is the common names, several puffers are known as "porpupine puffers". Either way it was huge and is possibly what was being described as reaching 3' in length.

[RouDaiLLe]

I've seen a puffer in a fish shop that was well over 2' in length. I believe it was closely related to Diodon holocanthus, but I could not get a specific ID on it. I think the problem with the length discussion is the common names, several puffers are known as "porpupine puffers". Either way it was huge and is possibly what was being described as reaching 3' in length.

Hello,

FYI, the only puffer reaching 3 feet is Arothron stellatus and when you see his mouth, i can tell you that you fear! It would just cut 2 of your finger in one bit! Pretty impressive animal!

By the way, i take this opportunity to show one of the place where A. sohal tang lives in egypt : <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/T7VkMOOCQU0&hl=fr_FR&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/T7VkMOOCQU0&hl=fr_FR&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


Later!

[bigred16]

I've seen a puffer in a fish shop that was well over 2' in length. I believe it was closely related to Diodon holocanthus, but I could not get a specific ID on it. I think the problem with the length discussion is the common names, several puffers are known as "porpupine puffers". Either way it was huge and is possibly what was being described as reaching 3' in length.

It's the Dion Hystrix porpupine that can get over 2ft, I have seen one , pretty impressive. The common one in the trade generally don't get over 10".

[Dan]

That sohal tang looks mad and unhappy. There are two human feet in his terrritory and that is not natural (tongue firmly in cheek :D). Cheers.

Dan

[SDguy]

Are those A. clarkii? Strange looking tails...

[anbosu]

Hello,

FYI, the only puffer reaching 3 feet is Arothron stellatus and when you see his mouth, i can tell you that you fear! It would just cut 2 of your finger in one bit! Pretty impressive animal!

By the way, i take this opportunity to show one of the place where A. sohal tang lives in egypt : <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/T7VkMOOCQU0&hl=fr_FR&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/T7VkMOOCQU0&hl=fr_FR&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


Later!

According to fishbase you're wrong.

http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/speciesSummary.php?ID=1022&genusname=Diodon&speciesname=hystrix

91 cm = 35.8 inches

[LisaD]

However, if you look at your own reference, it goes on to state COMMON length (I assume, in the wild) is 40.0 cm = 15.7 in. For aquarium keeping, I'd think that is more relevant.

Size / Weight / Age

Max length : 91.0 cm TL male/unsexed; (Ref. 2850); common length : 40.0 cm TL male/unsexed; (Ref. 26999); max. published weight: 2,800 g (Ref. 40637)

[anbosu]

However, if you look at your own reference, it goes on to state COMMON length (I assume, in the wild) is 40.0 cm = 15.7 in. For aquarium keeping, I'd think that is more relevant.

Obviously no puffer is going to approach 3 feet in captivity -- the discussion was around max size and the op stated that only one puffer gets to 3 feet, which is not true.

Slightly off topic, but I saw one of these over the summer in the Keys that was probably about 15 inches and it looked like a football it was so fat.

[Crazy One]

That's a cool video of the sohol , he does look PO'ed cause your in his territory though. Did it try to stab you in the leg or feet when you decided to move?

[kirkaz]

Love the fish selection.

Happy fish??? In the words of Kurt Cobain "It's ok to eat fish, cause they don't have any feelings"....To me a healthy fish is a "happy fish", those fish look pretty damn healthy to me. Sohal may be a little "uncomfortable" with the tank size at some point, I'm sure he will be "happy" at the museum though.

My Sohal has taken a few "slashes" at me while doing maint., glad my corallife gloves are "Sohal-proof".

[RouDaiLLe]

Obviously no puffer is going to approach 3 feet in captivity -- the discussion was around max size and the op stated that only one puffer gets to 3 feet, which is not true.

Slightly off topic, but I saw one of these over the summer in the Keys that was probably about 15 inches and it looked like a football it was so fat.

Moreover, i would say diodon hystrix is less common on our tank that Diodon holacanthus which has a size reasonnable in tank.

To reach their normal size, pufferfishes needs to be very well feeded as in tje nature they are some kind of eating machines!

Concerning the 91 cm of the diodon hystrix, i guess it s pretty rare according to references in the books i havé, none of them is metionIning this super size! But it s cool to know that also!

Later:fun2:

[RouDaiLLe]

That's a cool video of the sohol , he does look PO'ed cause your in his territory though. Did it try to stab you in the leg or feet when you decided to move?

Hello,

oh well it didnt try to stab me More than when i was on the rock or its rock!;)

i have to admit that wherever you go if There is a sohal, it would just try to stab you , they are very agressive in the sea!!

[Sardaukar]

That sohal tang looks mad and unhappy. There are two human feet in his terrritory and that is not natural (tongue firmly in cheek :D). Cheers.

Dan

I was expecting the guy to suddenly start hopping around after the Sohal tail slashed his ankle :D