HLLE and carbon

[bigworm175]

I had a cyano outbreak and started running carbon. My hippo got HLLE shortly thereafter. I've had him for a year without any health issues. What is the current thinking on activated carbon and HLLE?

[davelin315]

There is anecdotal information out there that HLLE is caused by carbon dust in the water. I had to aggressively filter my system with carbon at one point in time because of the addition of possible toxins into the water and because I turned up the flow through the fluidized bed, it shredded some of the carbon releasing a ton of carbon dust into the tank. My yellow tangs immediately started showing signs of HLLE and they still exhibit this today, over a year since this happened. My feeling is that this is in fact a cause, or at least causative.

[teesquare]

Guys, I have never heard or read such as this....Have been using carbon for over 25 years - NEVER have had a case of HLLE. And I have always kept a lot of tangs.
So - maybe you want to look at:
1. any possible stray current in the tank. Use a volt ohm meter on a vary low range to check this. Just because you may have a ground probe - does not mean your house has a good ground!
2. Nutrition......Selcon, garlic and vitamins B and C.
3. Possible pathogen? I have read that there are suspected bacteria and Hexamitia like bugs that can cause the symptomes that many want to lump into "HLLE"

When we see lateral line erosion, or "hole in the head" - we often overlook the more likely culprits.
If you have any credible evidence of carbon being the bad guy - by all means - share it.
T

[bigworm175]

I've been soaking food with vit. C and garlic as I've read that can help. There was a guy in the forums who was researching HLLE and I can't find his website. If I remember correctly he was finding that activated carbon dust was actually the main cause. Whether the carbon dust was directly causing this or indirectly I don't know. It makes sense that it is something that would not occur in the ocean if what the guy wrote is true - that HLLE doesn't occur in the wild. (true?)

Reefkeeping has an older article about HLLE and carbon was mentioned as a possible cause but it was written some time ago. I was just wondering if any more findings have come around.

[Reefobsession]

After about 2 months of dosing vodka, my Kole tang got it bad. I immediatly stopped soing and 2 days later, it was completly cleared up. It just sucks because I have seen so many successful vodka run tanks, such as sunny's. It casued my skimmer to go nuts and not create any skimmate and caused HLLE.

[RouDaiLLe]

Hello,

I am not sure that HLLE come from the carbon, there is a very complete article on reefkeeping i think, but be sure that HLLE is coming foods, stress or stray voltage. I think also that carbon dust in anectodic.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/index.php

But HLLE is probably not concerning the hippocamp as i am not sure that hippo as a lateral line? , i guess it's more something like a worm !

Show us some pictures we will tell you!

[teesquare]

I think I see a connection in the issue with carbon here:
"Carbon" ( big "C" - the black filtering material - granular in nature) and "carbon" ( the chemical found in sugar, vodka, and a host of other sources) are not exactly the same in this application.
So, if I understand correctly - the concern over "carbon" causing - or contributing to HLLE is the carbon used as a dosing material - not Carbon used as a filter media....correct?
Thanks for your input!
T

[RouDaiLLe]

This is the activated carbon that you put to clear the water, because it is absorbing the trace element.

[teesquare]

Really? Which trace element? I think it is easy to blame things we do not understand fully as the culprit here......
Again - in over 25 years, I have NEVER had a case of HLLE in my tanks.
AND - I use carbon - all the time.
How do you explain this? I am not trying to be arguementative...I am trying to learn if there is something to this fear of carbon that is new - or if it is the same old arguement I have always heard.
(It is kind of the same one you hear "It must have been the salt - I switched brands...and VIOLA! the problem appeared")
But without empirical evidence - how can we really choose to believe such?
In an effort to prove or dis-prove this: can you cite case histories, studies, or articles which ACTUALLY deal in numbers, and facts rather than ....fear and suspicion.
Again - we are all in this hobby to continue learning - and if there is some new - real knowledge - PLEASE share it.
T

[HighlandReefer]

Antimicrobial Polypeptides, Piscidins and Histone-Like Proteins, in Important Aquacultured Fish and the Effect of Nutrition on their Expression and Susceptibility to Infection in Hybrid Striped (Sunshine) Bass (Morone saxatilis ♂ x M. chrysops ♀)
http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/theses/available/etd-05052008-171103/

Investigating molecular recognition and biological function at interfaces
using piscidins, antimicrobial peptides from fish
http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/library/publications/NHMFL_Publication-3172.pdf

[Chibils]

There's been plenty of anecdotal evidence around here to support it. Nothing empirical, but quite a few stories from people that only seem to have problems with carbon. imo, if it's actually involved, it's a trigger, causing secondary or tertiary "ripples" to the water chemistry that incites hlle, possibly due to the stress caused by these ripples.

[JHemdal]

Just to clarify - the use of certain types of activated carbon is KNOWN to cause HLLE, myself and another researcher have demonstrated that independently of one another. The question is WHY and WHAT type of carbon causes this. The other researcher is looking into the "why" and I have a grant to study "what" types of carbon causes this. My own study is just starting, but the other researcher is about to submit for publication.

Here is some additional information:

* Not all types of carbon causes issues (pelletized seems not to)

* Protein skimmers remove carbon dust (fines) and you may not have problems in tanks with good skimmers, running with wet skimmate.

* Most cures for HLLE involve moving the fish to a new aquarium.

* It has never been demonstrated that grounding probes have any benefit.

* It has never been demonstrated that any infectious agent is involved (except Hexamita in FW fish).

* Carbon is not the only cause, but it *is* one of the causes.

* Run a Google search for "Hemdal HLLE" for more information.


Jay Hemdal

[bigworm175]

I agree with you Scott. I have a hard time believing that its carbon itself that causes HLLE because too many people run it and have no problems. I've heard it suggested that its only certain (brands) that are culprits. I can't help but wonder if there's something certain activated carbons set in motion though.

Does anyone know whether HLLE occurs in the wild?

[bigworm175]

Jay! Just as I was posting you snuck in there. You're the guy I was talking about at the beginning. What's the website you sent me to some time ago?

Edit: never mind, its up there Duh!

[ddefilippis]

Jay - Are certain tangs more prone to HLLE than others? I have maintained a yellow and hippo for about five years, and running a light amount of carbon. The hippo has had HLLE for about three of those years and has not responded to Selcon, nori, etc. I have read that mud refugiums have been linked as a possible cure for HLLE, but I do not know if this is founded. Anyone else know of potential cures?

[JHemdal]

HLLE looks different on yellow tangs - because their skin is yellow, you can't really see the lesions as light-colored spots like you can with hepatus tangs. In bad cases, the yellow tangs will get scalloped edging on their fins. IMO though, hepatus get it far more easily. Atlantic blue tangs and doctorfish also seem to get it more often than other tangs. Bristletooth tangs don't get it quite as readily.

Jay

[davelin315]

In my case, when I removed the carbon from the system (nothing else really changed, food has always been high quality and always kept disease at bay) the HLLE stopped and regressed a bit, but whenever I run too much flow through the carbon and notice that it's spreading into the tank, then I end up with HLLE again and it always stops and regresses when I stop using it.

I don't get this problem when I simply run carbon in my system, nor do I get it when I run carbon in a bag. I only get this problem when the carbon ends up breaking up into finer dust when I run the flow too high through whatever I have it in.

[RouDaiLLe]

According to what i understood, if it really absorb the trace element, change of water can help to avoid fish getting HLLE.

CAN you let us Know what kind of carbon you are using.

As told earlier, carbon is not the only cause of HLLE. i have read a lot of scientist article and Talk to some Friends about that, and i dont think this is coming from one identified cause as the lack of element CAN Come from various reasons.

[teesquare]

WOW!
Now we are getting somewhere!
Good information as it seems that the connection with carbon may be valid - *IF* we know what type and kind, or perhaps how it was "activated" ( Some carbon is steam activated, some is phosphoric acid washed, and so on...)
AND - whether or not heavy protein skimming is being used, etc.

Jay- WHEN do you suppose you will have something conclusive? Just because I have not had to deal with HLLE - does not mean that I would not want to know how to insure that I am preventing it.

T

[billsreef]

Call it a hunch, but based on years of observation (no proper experiments), I think it's quite likely HLLE is more of a general immune system deficiency problem which manifests due to one or more extra irritants (carbon dust, stray voltage, etc.) on top of a depressed immune system from captivity issues.

[davelin315]

I use Black Diamond reef carbon. I don't think it has anything to do with absorption of trace elements...

[teesquare]

Most of us use trace elements - or replenish them via water changes, - I too doubt the trace element depletion theory as such...
But - it may still have a connection here, in that I am in line with what Bill said - It may be a suppressed immunilogic response, that any one of a number of things becomes a tipping point for the fish to show signs of HLLE.

Personal theory: I do not believe it is ONE disease that can be lumped under "HLLE". I think there are a number of different issues that can cause the response of the fish - that we recognize as HLLE.
If that is true - then there many different irritants, stimulants, and factors that can come into play to produce the appearance of the HLLE symptoms.

Jay - about ground probes: The reason they are not often effective is 2 fold: poor placement, and poor grounding circuit that they are plugged into.You may want to involve an electrician in that part of your reseach. As well - the electricity leakage often comes from poor qulity powerhead, submersible pumps and heaters. Up-grading them is the best prevention of the electricity connection with HLLE.

T

[bigworm175]

Do we lump many different health issues under a HLLE umbrella? If we aren't talking about the same aliment then that might be an issue. What do we know about possible similar diseases/parasites? I can't get a good pic of my hippo but I wish I could show you what is going on with mine because I believe that this particular issue is carbon related. Here's the best I can do with my horrible camera:http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv54/bigworm175/DSCF0123.jpg

[teesquare]

HLLE= Head and Lateral Line Erosion......
So - it is a moniker based on the visual symptoms. NOT causitive data.

That is why I think that when you or I look at a fish like the one in the picture - we instantly say "HLLE".
It is like saying Cancer: Which kind? Is it caused by exposure to something enviremental - or genetic? Lethal or not?
So - Cancer - just like HLLE are generalized descriptions based on visual observation - not diagnostics.

Maybe Jay's work will help us clairfy, and define the major causes though. There is hope!

[ddefilippis]

For comparison, based on the comment above regarding the standard HLLE generalization. Here is a photo of my hippo tang to show a difference. I saturated the (poor) photo to show the holes in the head and also along the lateral line, but still HLLE. Like I mentioned, I have been running a small amount of carbon and can not seem to get this guy better (although is still very active and a good eater). Maybe I will remove the carbon for a week or so.

[bigworm175]

Good point. Cancer, however, is a very defined disease. We have other diseases that may exhibit symptoms like cancer but we don't say it's cancer. Are there other known causes of these symptoms that would not be "HLLE"? That might help clearly define the possibly several different ailments. One of which might be caused by carbon, while others have different causes. If we are dealing with multiple ailments that just exhibit the same symptoms then this is a more complicated issue.

[teesquare]

Yes - perhaps cancer was not the best example...
But interestingly - we group ALL lateral line erosion, and ALL loss of scales, and color on the head of a fish as ..."HLLE"...right?

So - i think you are right, there exists enough suspicion that more than one influence plays a part in HLLE.
Does carbon participate in this...? I think it is just as probable as anything else I have read at this point.
T

[JHemdal]

teesquare,

There seems to be five different manifestations of "HLLE":

1) Typical marine fish HLLE. Carbon use is a very common cause, but because it is so commonly used, it is then difficult to determine if it is the sole cause. As I like to say, the single underlying commonality seen in ALL cases of HLLE is the presence of di-hydrogen oxide (umm - water!). Seriously, this has been the reason people have implicated such things as copper use, stray voltage, poor diet, lack of sunlight, etc.

2) That exhibited by yellow tangs. I'm not sure if the causation is the same, because the symptoms are so very different.

3) A similar problem seen in aquacultured sea basses in Australia. This is sometimes seen in long-term captive groupers. The facial pitting is more localized.

4) Freshwater fish HLLE (oscars, discus, etc.) probably caused by Hexamita protozoans in the fish's gut that may reduce the bio-availibility of some nutrients. This is the only HLLE that can be reduced by drugs - metronidazole in particular.

5) A more general pale coloration of the fish, without distinct pitting, but with some fin erosion. I'm not sure this should even be described as HLLE.


Jay

[teesquare]

Thanks Jay-
I was only aware that there was "A" set of visual symptoms associated/identified as HLLE.....

That of the typical erosion of the lateral line, and facial loss of scales, pitting etc.

Anything written elsewhere that we can reference yet to differentiate clearly the various types of HLLE?

Are there different nomenclatures established so that we can talk about them as individual problems?
T

[billsreef]

teesquare,

There seems to be five different manifestations of "HLLE":

1) Typical marine fish HLLE. Carbon use is a very common cause, but because it is so commonly used, it is then difficult to determine if it is the sole cause. As I like to say, the single underlying commonality seen in ALL cases of HLLE is the presence of di-hydrogen oxide (umm - water!). Seriously, this has been the reason people have implicated such things as copper use, stray voltage, poor diet, lack of sunlight, etc.

Got to watch out for that di-hydrogen monoxide stuff. As Jay says, it's the single underlying commonality :D

On a more serious note, it's the fact that so many things are anecdotaly linked as well anectodatly shown not to be linked that lead me to the thought of HLLE being a more generalized immune problem that can be triggered by some irritant being the straw that broke the camels back. I've also seen research (Blasiola) that suggests vitamin deficiancy, so that brings in dietary considerations. Also I've seen HLLE reversed by simply adding foods high in vitamin C and vitamin A to the diet, with no other husbandry changes. Vitamins important to immune system health and tissue healing. The carbon link could be easily no more than how much dust ends up in the water, granular carbons are very dusty (especially the cheaper ones), while the pelletized carbons are generally quite clean of dust.

2) That exhibited by yellow tangs. I'm not sure if the causation is the same, because the symptoms are so very different.

I think it's more a case of advanced stages of the disease after the early stages have been missed for the reasons of coloration that you mentioned before. I've also seen the same fin issues in other species (as well as other genera) of tangs when it's gone on for prolonged time.

3) A similar problem seen in aquacultured sea basses in Australia. This is sometimes seen in long-term captive groupers. The facial pitting is more localized.

I'd be real curious to look at diet in these. It's quiet common in aquaculture settings to use diets that are high in grains (cheap) and low in marine based foods (expensive). It's not unusual to see health problems in captive fish populations as a result.

4) Freshwater fish HLLE (oscars, discus, etc.) probably caused by Hexamita protozoans in the fish's gut that may reduce the bio-availibility of some nutrients. This is the only HLLE that can be reduced by drugs - metronidazole in particular.

The vast majority HLLE I've seen in oscars and discus have been oscars fed primarily (or only) feeder goldfish, and discus fed heavily (or only) beefheart, and/or kept in poor water quality. I've very rarely seen it in these fish when kept in excellent water quality and fed a variety of high quality foods. As a result I subscribe to the school of thought that the hexamita is likely a secondary infection, not the cause. I've also seen metrondiazole fail to cure HLLE without dietary and water quality changes to go along with it.

5) A more general pale coloration of the fish, without distinct pitting, but with some fin erosion. I'm not sure this should even be described as HLLE.


Without any lateral line involvement, I'm inclined to think it's something else. Most cases I've seen like this tend to respond quite favorably to water quality improvement, and in some cases I've found parasite infections that aquarist missed.