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View Full Version : Switching QT's...and fish load? Other? too!


ScooterGuitar
12/23/2009, 08:03 AM
I just setup a second larger QT...S.G. checks the same, temp, and PH are nearly identical...just plop them in the new or acclimate? One thing is I will be redosing Cupramine all over.
I plan to take my DT fish out here soon and QT them as well. I think the old inhabitants have the basic new fish addition outbreak of ich that clears up within a day or two, but the new additions aren't immune...if that makes sense...I'm torn as I hate to stress the entire tank by putting them in smaller QT for 8 weeks.
I worry that even if all goes well being treated with Cupramine, then it will just happen again if I add new fish in a few months after these fish are back in DT, then add other fish a few months after that. ALmost like it will be an endless cycle.

The fish going into a 29g QT would be...
2 small clowns
2 small firefish
old fish (had for 5 years) that would be in there
large yellow tang
large pajama cardinal
long banded dartfish
large chromis
I'll be giving away two small damsels just to lower QT bioload.

Is this too many in this size QT for 8 weeks...No other options really w/o driving my family insane (larger tank, separate tanks, etc)

RBU1
12/23/2009, 08:42 AM
I would acclimate....But I tend to be a little over cautious....Your call.

How big is the tang? If its small you should be OK with the 29

ScooterGuitar
12/23/2009, 08:53 AM
He's fairly large...5 years old. He's my only worry. I will have a little rockwork and plenty of pvc hifing places.

RBU1
12/23/2009, 08:56 AM
OK good luck.

bguile
12/23/2009, 09:00 AM
I have read numerous times (from a marine biologist) that if you have the three major points the same, then it would be ok to just transfer. Those are temperature, salinity, and pH. pH being the most important which should have no more than a .01 difference. Temp is ok up to +2 and salinity should be no more than .001 rise. Fish can handle a slight drop in salinity.

bguile
12/23/2009, 09:08 AM
also,to comment on your quarantine it sounds to me like a 29 would be kind of small for those two tangs alone without the addition of the other smaller fish. Particularly with the Yellow Tang being the most aggressive so if you have no other choice I would watch how he behaves toward the other fish.

I typically use 20L for QT, but I used to have a 40g breeder that I kept for QT of multiple fish. I have a place that I can set it up when needed but when it's not it was stored away and I use the area then as just a worktable for doing QT stuff for the smaller usually running QT's.

ScooterGuitar
12/23/2009, 09:18 AM
Good thoughts.
My problem is I don't have enough bio media ready....
I only have one large tang, the rest of the fish are fairly small. I really see no other options at this point...my small clowns are showing signs of the ich today, so I hate to hold off...basically I'll have to remove all the coral and rockwork to catch a few fish, so this is the time to do it all at once and be done with it....I hope. I'll have 30g of prepared saltwater on-hand in case of issues or a fast need to separate fish into another QT.

Oh geez, I hate this.

bguile
12/23/2009, 10:58 AM
Yeah, quarantine is definitely a PITA but well worth it in my experience.

Well, if your largest fish is the....wait...did you ever say what type of fish your largest one is? I think it was assumed a Tang but as I read over it, you never actually said that it was your largest.

Anyway, if your 29 is your only option it is then what you'll have to go with but remember to QT ALL FISH, even the ones that don't show signs of ich because it's there...you just can't see it yet. Also, you will need to keep a VERY close watch on your bioload too. You will need to employ some ammonia reducing additives until a bacterial colony of its own is formed. I would also suggest maybe bubbling your QT filter in your main tank a few days to help colonize it.

HTH good luck.

ScooterGuitar
12/23/2009, 11:26 AM
Yes, tang is the largest fish.
I can't add bacteria (amquesl, prime, etc) with copper though.

Triggerfish
12/23/2009, 01:42 PM
r u removing fish out of dt due to ich?

ScooterGuitar
12/23/2009, 02:16 PM
Yes I am.

ScooterGuitar
12/25/2009, 09:41 AM
I'm so torn, everything but the fish in the DT are thriving. My old fish are looking fine and the two clowns appear to be better, but I know I need to watch them closely for the second round of possible attack.
Do I tear down the entire setup to snag the fish or try to wait it out? I;m so worried about all the fish in the little 29g.

RBU1
12/25/2009, 11:06 AM
I'm so torn, everything but the fish in the DT are thriving. My old fish are looking fine and the two clowns appear to be better, but I know I need to watch them closely for the second round of possible attack.
Do I tear down the entire setup to snag the fish or try to wait it out? I;m so worried about all the fish in the little 29g.


That is your call about how you want the future of yourt tank to be. If you always want to worry about if adding another fish is going to stress all your fish out enough to get ich again and possibly wipe your tank out. Trust me I used to be one to say don't QT just feed well and they will be fine. Well I think different now. I lost a good amount of fish just because I did not QT. Take your time to do it right. Leave your main tank free of fish for 12 weeks and treat all new fish and the sick ones in cupramine at .5 for 4 weeks.

Triggerfish
12/27/2009, 06:24 PM
cant argue with what RBU1 mentioned..
you could just see how things work out most fish tolerate mild ich infestations without issue. eventually the strain could die off.. just wait it out and if the infestations get too overwhelming then you remove and copper treat.. going to depend on the strain and fish resiliency on how this will develop..

bguile
12/27/2009, 07:50 PM
Since there are no pictures or anything else for us to truly gage how badly your fish are infected, we wouldn't be able to tell you if you should wait it out or not. However, I can tell you from experience that with that list of fish, this ich infestation is not likely to go away without you losing all these fish. I've heard that a single strain of ich can only last 11 weeks but the population grows exponentially every two weeks!!

Putting myself in your shoes, I'd take my chances with the 29g and just be prepared to do daily water changes as its the only possible way of curing this ich infestation. Below is my Threadfin butterfly. I purchased him from an LFS and had him in a quarantine for almost 3 weeks and this is what he looked like a day before I was going to move him to my DT.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/dukeintl/Aquarium/20D-IMG_4188copy.jpg
I immediately started cupramine and this is what he looked like the next day.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t38/dukeintl/Aquarium/20D-IMG_4343copy.jpg
Now, that doesn't mean he was cured of ich in one day but I show you that to say that I now know that the ich is gone. He will finish his 14 day cupramine treatment on wednesday then I will begin to remove the copper through daily water changes and he will remain under observation in the QT for another 3-4 weeks.

Cupramine requires that you keep the copper concentration at .5 for two weeks. I would follow their directions on that instead of the earlier mentioned 4 weeks. Although, IME firefish are a bit more sensitive to copper so I'd shoot for a .3-.4 range for two weeks and see how they do. You will need a good reliable test kit before you start dosing. I've used Salifert with good success. The Seachem one is probably best since it's made by the same people that make the Cupramine but it seemed too hard for me to read. The shades of blue all ran together.

I hope that helps you in this quarantine process and remember to keep all fish out of your main tank for 8-10 weeks. After you finish this process and all fish are healthy and return to the main tank, I would not add another fish without a quarantine period and proper process or you could be going through this all over again.

bguile
12/27/2009, 07:51 PM
Correction on the above, an ich permutation can last up to 11 months! Not weeks.

wooden_reefer
12/28/2009, 12:25 PM
I just setup a second larger QT...S.G. checks the same, temp, and PH are nearly identical...just plop them in the new or acclimate? One thing is I will be redosing Cupramine all over.
I plan to take my DT fish out here soon and QT them as well. I think the old inhabitants have the basic new fish addition outbreak of ich that clears up within a day or two, but the new additions aren't immune...if that makes sense...I'm torn as I hate to stress the entire tank by putting them in smaller QT for 8 weeks.
I worry that even if all goes well being treated with Cupramine, then it will just happen again if I add new fish in a few months after these fish are back in DT, then add other fish a few months after that. ALmost like it will be an endless cycle.

The fish going into a 29g QT would be...
2 small clowns
2 small firefish
old fish (had for 5 years) that would be in there
large yellow tang
large pajama cardinal
long banded dartfish
large chromis
I'll be giving away two small damsels just to lower QT bioload.

Is this too many in this size QT for 8 weeks...No other options really w/o driving my family insane (larger tank, separate tanks, etc)

I have transferred fish to 100% new water numerous times before. No problem, just make sure that salinity, ph and temp are very close. For this purpose, I have always used salt that is completely free running, without lumps. I believe the resulting saltwater has greater consistency this way. BTW, whenever I am very sure that it is safe for me (no spines or venom), I transfer by hand and never use a net. When I don't care about including some water, I almost always use a clear plastic bag to transfer fish when catching them is easy. I have not used a net for some time.

As far as QT size is concerned, whether a fish will eat in it is the yardstick. Fish need swimming room, but for eight weeks of QT it matters less than in DT.

Of course, all QTs should have a medium of biological filter that has been cycled very well in advance. I hope you have cycled such medium in advance. Ammonia, even sub-lethal, is very bad for fish.

RBU1
12/28/2009, 12:37 PM
Cupramine requires that you keep the copper concentration at .5 for two weeks. I would follow their directions on that instead of the earlier mentioned 4 weeks. Although, IME firefish are a bit more sensitive to copper so I'd shoot for a .3-.4 range for two weeks and see how they do. You will need a good reliable test kit before you start dosing. I've used Salifert with good success. The Seachem one is probably best since it's made by the same people that make the Cupramine but it seemed too hard for me to read. The shades of blue all ran together.

I hope that helps you in this quarantine process and remember to keep all fish out of your main tank for 8-10 weeks. After you finish this process and all fish are healthy and return to the main tank, I would not add another fish without a quarantine period and proper process or you could be going through this all over again.

Even thought the bottle says 14 days if you call and talk to Seachem they suggest 3-4 weeks of cupramine. You can keep it at a lower level but do not go below .3

I would stay in the .5 range because that shade of blue is easier to detect on the salifert kit for 4 weeks...not 2

ScooterGuitar
12/29/2009, 08:33 PM
Thanks for further insight.
I've been holding off, closely monitoring the DT since I started this, was almost ready to do tear it apart, but decided to wait, as we are trying to find a new little bigger tank to replace our 75 with, thus it would perfect to do it. But now not sure if I even want a bigger tank, as this DT is thriving, except for the ich issue.
I've did marine for 20 years,learned a bunch, but always rethink my ideas with new ones. The ich these have is not bad at all...to my visible eye that is. Now it is seemingly gone, but obviously not. A few of my old tnak inhabitants merely showed a spot, maybe 3-4 at most, while others didn't.
I think perhaps the strain originated from the cardinal that's been in the tank forever, he has a shredded tail that had what looks like ich spots for several months, but I never put 2 and 2 together!
For today, leaving things be, as my 29 QT continues to do well...not even sure if it will cycle with the long established LR I have in it. I currently have one small clown and two firefish in it that are thriving.
Keep ya posted!

Big E
12/30/2009, 05:03 AM
I would leave the fish in the DT & hypo that tank. Take out corals inverts & put them in a large enough tub.

Split up the rock.......the coralline algae will survive........the pods & worms from the untreated rock will quickly replenish your system when you're done. The corals inverts won't need much rock to sustain the nitrogen cyle.

Don't screw up those fish in the 29g with a bunch of diseased fish that will also overload the bio system.