your thoughts on a diy vortech

[crsaz]

after disassembling my vortech I thought omg what a simple design(simple yet effective) I want to diy the dry side with a simple controller basically, 3 modes pulse,occelating sp.?(basically reef crest) and constant. I want to put a magnet(like the one in the link) on a dc motor and mess around with different speeds and motors and when I decide on a final design I will probably have a friend of mine cnc me a casing out of aluminum for the motor using the original dry side case as a model. seems simple enough:bounce3: so we'll see how it goes.

http://www.magnet4sale.com/Neodymium-Magnets-N42-OD2-XID0.25-X0.5-NdFeB-Rare-Earth-Magnets.html

[Tang Salad]

I think this is one of those 'The Devil is in the Details' type situations. Heck, Eco Tech is still ironing out issues in their own design.

That said, I admire your spirit. I'm sure it can be done with enough patience and experimenting. Good Luck!

[Fishbulb2]

Anything can be DIY'ed. It's just that sometimes it's a lot easier and CHEAPER to just buy something that's mass produced. I agree that this will hard to do well enough to justify. Good luck with it if you try!

[username in use]

Im sure you can make a nice one for a little under a grand.

[Chris27]

I'm on board, let me know if you need any help!

[sanababit]

how are you going to keep it from rusting inside the aquarium, because i use to have the old style magnets on my vortechs and even tough they where coated with plastic and some resin they still rust, i am on my second magnets, and i am pretty sure that a dc controllable motor with variable speeds aren't that cheap, plus you need to polarize the magnets so they dont come apart or repell each other, you will need a really good bearing and magnet shaft so when it spins really fast it doesnt bind, oh and it has to be made out of plastic or stainless (this rusts over time) so they dont rust, i can think of other things that you will encounter, believe me i have taking it apart and it is simple by desing, but hard to build because of all the testing and knowhow they have invested on this thing, i wish you good luck and if you build one i hope its less than 400 dlls,

sana

[crsaz]

I was planning on starting off using the ecotech wetside and designing my dryside first then moving on to the wet side later

[lordofthereef]

If you do make this I would love to see it. I enjoy seeing DIY stuff whether or not it actually ends up saving money :)

[baldwinaquaman]

I think it's a great idea, I love my vortech (although it is a bit too loud) but the price is skyrocketed on the thing. It cannot possibly cost that much to make. Maybe if we start DIY'ing our own, they'll drop the price on theirs. If we can get it down to say $200 for a DIY, they will have to drop the price, with enough attempts we may even be able to make it better. Great idea, I'm on board, let me know if I can help.

[Stumped]

I think it's a great idea, I love my vortech (although it is a bit too loud) but the price is skyrocketed on the thing. It cannot possibly cost that much to make. Maybe if we start DIY'ing our own, they'll drop the price on theirs. If we can get it down to say $200 for a DIY, they will have to drop the price, with enough attempts we may even be able to make it better. Great idea, I'm on board, let me know if I can help.

The perceived high cost almost certainly doesn't come from the materials or production of the unit. With almost any sort of new technology the initial high price is a result of the extremely high costs of research and development. This is typical of most new technology and not unique to vortechs.

[baldwinaquaman]

I agree, however, it's been out long enough now to make their money back, so the prices should've lowered, and they have not, so I believe when hobbyists are faced with price gouging, we should do our best to counteract that with our own efforts as best as possible.

[Stumped]

I agree, however, it's been out long enough now to make their money back, so the prices should've lowered, and they have not, so I believe when hobbyists are faced with price gouging, we should do our best to counteract that with our own efforts as best as possible.

I definitely don't disagree with lower prices or some good old fashioned ingenuity either. I too am waiting/wishing for a price drop on them, so I can definitely sympathize.

[crsaz]

you gotta look at it from their perspective, If you had a pattent on a design would you drop the price on said product just because you have made your research and development money back? I am not necessarily do this to save money, I already have my vortechs and if I want more I can get them wholesale through my friend who owns an lfs(wholesale price is still outrageous though) I am doing it more because I can and because I LOVE tinkering.

[SFeST]

This is highly relevant to my interests. I also love making things just because I can. Being sometimes cost effective is merely a bonus.

Best of luck, I'll be keeping an eye on this thread as well.

[lordofthereef]

I agree, however, it's been out long enough now to make their money back, so the prices should've lowered, and they have not, so I believe when hobbyists are faced with price gouging, we should do our best to counteract that with our own efforts as best as possible.

Prices don't generally drop unless demand drops or there is direct competition. There really isn't much competition to the vortechs aside from other powerheads which we can all agree are pretty different from vortechs.

[baldwinaquaman]

Prices don't generally drop unless demand drops or there is direct competition. There really isn't much competition to the vortechs aside from other powerheads which we can all agree are pretty different from vortechs.

WE wud be the competition, der....

[lordofthereef]

WE wud be the competition, der....

I don't think companies generally put DIY into their considerations much when looking at competitors. Frankly it hasn't even been done yet (perhaps it has but definitely not on a massive scale) so until then there is no reason for them to care.

[crsaz]

plus by the time a significant amount of us replicate the vorech they will come out with a new one that is more efficient, has more features, produces more flow ect, or maybe not since they wont have any competition from other manufacturers anytime soon.

[tkeracer619]

Stores mark them up considerably.

Echotech needs to make their money and so does the store you buy it from. They all have families to feed. Say the company makes $100 over cost to manufacturer. How many pumps does that take to make payroll for a couple people? This is a niche market. The standards won't always apply here. I doubt they have made much money tbh.

If you think the motor they use costs $20 you are misled. The parts used are not cheap regardless of how simple things "look".

[widmer]

For the people saying it's going to cost a small fortune to make the dry side, I'm going to have to play the devil's advocate here and guess that it could probably be done for around $50.

Seriously, you have a small DC motor, a couple of neodynium magnets, an AC/DC converter and really basic electronics like a rheostatic voltage control or a basic relay.

That being said, I believe the price on a vortech is good for what it does and the nice clean package it's in if you're only using one or two. But DIYing these things are lots of fun as well.

[jefferino]

Best of luck. I will be following this thread for future developments. Anxiously waiting.

[DeathWish302]

Was it a DIY bust or not worth the time investment?

I would have to say the latter, as your going to have a 100+ hours in anything you DIY at this level.

[disc1]

For the OP. Maybe there's an even better (certainly quieter) solution than the one vortech uses.

Have you ever seen how the motor works than spins the disk in a hard drive? The magnets are on the disk (just like the wet-side) and there are coils of wire (look up how stepper motors work if you don't know what I'm talking about) underneath it to create the variable field to spin the magnet. The coils are arranged kind of like a star.

I have no idea how big the coils would have to be to get the field through the glass. Hopefully one of the folks with a real EE will chime in to tell whether this is realistic or not. But it souds like it should work, and would have no moving parts on the dry side meaning it would be much quieter. If you work the design right, it would probably be less heat too.

[cody6766]

This was done on a pico scale by someone a while back. Apparently his design was really solid and it worked well. He had DIY details posted but, unless I heard wrong, Ecotec had words with him and he took it down. I don't remember who it was and I don't think he was attempting to sell them, but it looked great in his little 2'ish gal tank.

I'm sure something needing to spin fast enough, in tight enough tollerances, to move enough water in a big tank would be more difficult.

[DeathWish302]

This was done on a pico scale by someone a while back. Apparently his design was really solid and it worked well. He had DIY details posted but, unless I heard wrong, Ecotec had words with him and he took it down. I don't remember who it was and I don't think he was attempting to sell them, but it looked great in his little 2'ish gal tank.

I'm sure something needing to spin fast enough, in tight enough tollerances, to move enough water in a big tank would be more difficult.

If your talking about the guy on another reef site (Think Nano + Reef), I think he is ironing out the controller for his and has had problems with the motor chatter from the cheaper Chinese made unit. If you consider the cost of a quality motor and the other bits, your not far off the price of a used MP40W. I'm still spinning this DIY in my head to decide if I will take the plunge.:hmm3:
I hate chatter and the MP40 is full of that....

[BrassMonkey]

Link to small brushless dc motor,, yeaaah

[DeathWish302]

Link to small brushless dc motor,, yeaaah

huh?

[worldnewsmap]

ok im hooked cant wait for the ideas to start rolling in

[dlterry85]

i'm thinking of a hamster cage next the tank with magnets attached to the exercise wheel... am i close?

[Roblox84]

i'm thinking of a hamster cage next the tank with magnets attached to the exercise wheel... am i close?

That's funny but it might actually work. The flow will be very random as it would only spin when the hampster feels like turning the wheel.

[chrismck97]

tagging along this is a good idea

[duoc9119]

I've read a thread of a build similar from a different forum but on a much smaller scale. It was for a SPS sub gallon tank I believe.

[DeathWish302]

tagging along this is a good idea

That's the $1,000,000 question....... I have yet to calculate this as a 'good' idea unless your requirement of flow must be custom tailored to your system. This may be a good idea for the DIY'er that has access to specialized equipment, but I would suggest against the novice Dremel junkie. The wetside assembly and housing for the external is cake, but the problem lies in controlling this thing with an affordable controller. I have yet to find an affordable means except maybe a Arduino.

There are just too many variables to play with at the moment to justify a savings of maybe $50-150 (minus experimental cost of magnets, motors & controllers).

The other forum post I have read extensively states the biggest problem is noise from the motor. Even if you buy each component he has stated and acquire a few other retrofitted exotic items (i.e. cermaic bearings/shaft), your still out $150 plus housing materials. By the time you add the housing cost, your at nearly half the cost of a used unit. Can you hit the nail on the head the first time or spend double to make it suitable for your needs.....?

I wish I had some enlightenment to decide if I'm in or out. This isn't a Swilerstein or a Maxi-mod, but a serious chunk of change that could be a bust......:sad1:

[disc1]

The other forum post I have read extensively states the biggest problem is noise from the motor.

That's why I want to try to ditch the vortech design all together and go for something with no moving parts on the dry side. That solves all of the bushing / bearing issues and means that the only mechanical part you would have to build would be the wet side, which has already been stated is the easy part.

[TellyFish]

That's why I want to try to ditch the vortech design all together and go for something with no moving parts on the dry side. That solves all of the bushing / bearing issues and means that the only mechanical part you would have to build would be the wet side, which has already been stated is the easy part.

This sounds like a great idea. Does a pre-made wire+coil device exist which can create the spinning motion, or would this need to be DIY'ed from scratch?

[maynardjames]

to me it`s whats great about the usa. if you can invest enough research, time & money to create a product people like & want. you should be able to make money from it. im all for diy & have no problems with it. if someone can diy one up & running like they want it thats great. good luck to you & anyone else who tries

[Caesra]

This is certainly doable, but the power consumption would go up quite a bit.

What I am hearing is that the motor would need to be seperated into two parts. For those that are unfamiliar, the basic principle behind an electric motor is a series of coils that produce a magentic field...this pushes on magnets that exist on the 'free spinning' part of the motor.

In order to have the electric outside and the magnets inside, you would have to have a substantially larger magentic field, or a very unique design. The noise comes from the magnet portion of the assembly, not the electronics.

So if you can create the electronics outside, which is where the heat is generated..and put the magnets inside the wet housing, you have a winner...just probably 3x the power consumption =)

Controller, in theory, would could be identical to the vortechs...just more powerful for the increased power useage.

[DeathWish302]

That's why I want to try to ditch the vortech design all together and go for something with no moving parts on the dry side. That solves all of the bushing / bearing issues and means that the only mechanical part you would have to build would be the wet side, which has already been stated is the easy part.

I guess the major question I have for any style of motor used is duty cycle. I'm driving a Swirlerstein with a microwave turntable motor. It has been turned off for no more than 10 hrs in the last three years for maintenance and a move. This $20 motor was not likely designed for a continuous duty cycle, but has cut the mustard thus far. I have a feeling with the brushless airplane motors, the life cycle of the motor may be a problem with variable voltage (due to ramp up/ramp down) and the duty cycle. I agree ditching the Vortech design is a method and could eliminate the replacement costs of motors over time.

Does anyone know the replacement cost of the Vortech motor by chance?

I know that some have replaced their SeaSwirl motor before for more than twice what I paid for my Ebay unit (I believe it was GE branded). If it can be made affordable, the 'electro-magnet drive' would be possibly a better option.

I still haven't given up on some of the higher dollar brushless motors yet. There seems to be quite an extensive market (and price range) or motors out there. I might buy a spare Vortech just to play with the electronics/motor combination and build my packaging around that combination. Thinking outside the box on this will be purely for entertainment, as you will completely blow replicating a Vortech for cheap out the window.

Back to mulling over the ideas. More to come..........:reading: