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THEUNION1
12/29/2009, 01:50 AM
A friend of mine lost all her fish in 18 hours. She fed them before she went to bed and when she woke up a couple were dead then all died by next night. She lost 6 clowns and a diamond goby. I cant even come close to figuring it out. Any input would be much appreciated! All inverts are still alive (snails and sea hare).

Nitrite-0
Ammonia-0
Nitrate-10
Salinity-1.024
PH-8.2
Temp-78

AHDOnline
12/29/2009, 06:22 AM
How old is the tank?
What else is in the tank?
Any other fish that lived?

slojmn
12/29/2009, 09:57 AM
Any hardware malfunction potential that might introduce CO2 into the system. I lost a lot of my fish overnight when my calcium reactor leaked all the CO2 from the bottle into the stand at night and depleted the oxygen in the system through the night some years back. Another thought would be the food she fed??? possibly tainted??? More information about her system, components, husbandry habits, etc. would be useful. I am very sorry for her losses, that is just terrible :(.

THEUNION1
12/29/2009, 05:13 PM
No other fish lived. Its a stock 28 nano cube with LED lights and no additions. Only the inverts survived and 2 anemones (white ones) dont know what kind. The tank is a month old i think and she does 2 gallon water changes every week i think. She thinks its the food but it was new and just opened so.....

Psionicdragon
12/29/2009, 08:18 PM
kind of sounds like an ammonia spike... or electrical issue that ran into the tank.

tahoe61
12/29/2009, 08:30 PM
No other fish lived. Its a stock 28 nano cube with LED lights and no additions. Only the inverts survived and 2 anemones (white ones) dont know what kind. The tank is a month old i think and she does 2 gallon water changes every week i think. She thinks its the food but it was new and just opened so.....

Six clownfish in a 28gal tank that was a month old, that would appear to be the answer.

SeasonedReefer
12/29/2009, 08:36 PM
I have hear that some sea hares emit toxins when they die. Has anyone else heard this?

THEUNION1
12/30/2009, 03:10 AM
She said water checked out as you see test results above. A few of her other fish have died as well in her other tank. She fed that tank same food as well. I know that many fish in a new tank could be it as well. I guess it will remain a mystery. Thanks for all your responses.

Ps. I have heard sea hares emit toxins upon death as well but its till alive.

Demonic
12/30/2009, 03:33 AM
Def could be food poisoning. How old was her other tank. Is she experienced in the hobby?

THEUNION1
12/30/2009, 05:35 PM
Other tank is like 6 mos old. She been doin it for years.

Demonic
12/30/2009, 08:44 PM
I would throw that food out.

cdsheid
12/30/2009, 09:26 PM
Their is way to many fish in the tank for a 28 gallon tank. I have the jbj 28 gallon just the power compact though and i would never put that many in their. And from what i have read in other forums my guess would be that alot of people would agree and probably get a few that would say torture may be a little extreme. My guess if the tank is to new you had a spike in your system. That along with the stress of so many clowns in one tank. But i dont know much i learn alot from this site. So im curious on seeing what other people say. Sory for the loss.

Tank2379
12/30/2009, 09:33 PM
Was the tank ever cycled?

tahoe61
12/30/2009, 11:27 PM
Other tank is like 6 mos old. She been doin it for years.

Not trying to be mean, but I know of no one that would put 6 clownfish in a 28 gal tank. Plus with sand and rock you are lucky if you have 20 gal. Please do not use this as a marker of good husbandry, and I hope your friend does not repeat this. Maybe she should try getting some advice on the forms. Regardless of whether is was bad food or not, you do not put 6 clownfish and one other fish in such a small tank. :sad1:

mstng67
12/30/2009, 11:33 PM
Even putting Anemones in a tank that is only one month old is poor husbandry.

FortyFour
12/31/2009, 12:28 AM
What kind of food was it? If it was frozen and she let it sit out too long, that could've done it.

THEUNION1
01/02/2010, 06:40 PM
Was frozen mysis. Its a lost cause.....

tahoe61
01/02/2010, 06:45 PM
Was frozen mysis. Its a lost cause.....

Whats lost is 6 clownfish, and no real information other than the very little you have provided. Yes it could have been bad food, but when you post the information you did, expect that people are going to question what happend in more detail.:sad1:

davelin315
01/02/2010, 08:46 PM
6 clowns plus a diamond goby in a 28 gallon tank... that really has less water than that due to displacement... and has 2 white anemones which suggests they are bleached or unhealthy... my guess is that these fish died from oxygen deprivation and water chemistry issues. That's a lot of fish in that little tank, especially since my experience with these tanks is that if you run them stock they don't do a whole lot of gas exchange. Find out if the gills were flared when they died and that could be a clue. Bottom line, though, is the overcrowding would have killed them eventually.

THEUNION1
01/02/2010, 09:58 PM
Whats lost is 6 clownfish, and no real information other than the very little you have provided. Yes it could have been bad food, but when you post the information you did, expect that people are going to question what happend in more detail.:sad1:

I dont think i gave very "little" i gave all the information that was given to me. I know as well as most of you that is was to many fish. If you read the messages above it has come up already. I cant stop her from doing whatever she wants i can only give advise as you all do but in the end peope do as they please. Im gonna mind my own business now all i wanted was to ask if there was something else that might have happend so i can learn more. It was "me" who wanted to know not her, she dosent even know i made a thread about it. Its not my tank so.....

Thanks

ILoveSeahorses
01/03/2010, 04:38 AM
Isn't the rule of thumb 1" of fish per 2 gallons of water?

Yep... just poor husbandry. I think the entire point of this thread was trying to see what all the different possibilities of why they could have died were....

Useless is correcto mundo.

beachgyrl0
01/03/2010, 04:57 AM
yes my tank was fully cycled. all the levels spiked and dropped and i had my blooms. i also used tons of bacteria and didnt add the fish right away. it is just a stock 28 gallon jbj nano cube with led lights, a chiller and a skimmer no other special equipment. this tank may have been new but i am not new to this hobby and i do have a pretty good idea what i am doing. i have had many tanks and this has never happened..if i didnt i wouldnt continue buying larger tanks. some of you may disagree and thats fine.

there were only 6 baby clowns, 2 diamond gobies and my inverts. 1 diamond goby is still alive and all of my inverts my 2 anemones are too. they are condy anemones btw and they are just fine, healthy and very much alive.

and for all of our information i test my water twice a day and all my levels are just fine and stable.

and for the oxygen deprivation..their mouths were closed and their gils were not flared.

so much for my circus tank =(

davelin315
01/03/2010, 07:39 AM
There's still an issue of what killed them out there. 6 babies is different than 6 adult clowns, how big were they? For raising baby clowns I have seen 10 gallon tanks with tons of them, but these also get large scale water changes pretty often. I have a friend who recently lost about half his brood (there were upwards of 120 clowns in there if I remember correctly) because he didn't aerate the water change water. Even with small bodies, their metabolism is pretty high and there's definitely a chance of oxygen deprivation whether their bodies showed this after death. The water also could easily have been fouled if you test that often - is there a chance that you mixed some chemicals into the water? Baby clowns, depending on how old they actually are (are we talking weeks, months, are they actually juveniles) can be very sensitive.

Also, as far as overcrowding, the information in the original post and provided subsequently definitely pointed to that as being the cause.

Sohal Tang Tim
01/03/2010, 05:33 PM
I have heard seahares can emmit toxins also.....and I saw a tank full of fish....lets say about 100 fish in a 70 gallon tank.....within 4 or 5 minutes all 100 fish were upside down
when a box fish/cowfish cannot remember which was put in and let go some toxin in the tank! It was scary quick and they all died right in front of our eyes! The seahare may
have caused the problem..... Not sure at all though.....sorry to hear of your trouble.

Tim

wooden_reefer
01/04/2010, 03:33 PM
A friend of mine lost all her fish in 18 hours. She fed them before she went to bed and when she woke up a couple were dead then all died by next night. She lost 6 clowns and a diamond goby. I cant even come close to figuring it out. Any input would be much appreciated! All inverts are still alive (snails and sea hare).

Nitrite-0
Ammonia-0
Nitrate-10
Salinity-1.024
PH-8.2
Temp-78

For how long had the clowns been in the tank?

Have they ever been well for a duration before?

If not, the problem could well be pre-existing and they just lived long enough to be sold. The way a fish is capture and treated in transit and holding are important to chance of long survival.

Any acutely developing disease can also be the cause. Some bacterial infection can advance quickly, especially in the confinement of a tank without the dilution effect of the ocean.

insp3621
01/04/2010, 08:10 PM
I have a 60 gallon tank recently that crashed and I couldn't figure out why. After inspecting all of my equipment for hours and checking the water for every test known to reefkeepers (Except for Copper), I found that the wiring at the top of the heater had a crack in the insulation on the wiring. I instantly went to the LFS and bought a copper test kit. The copper was almost undetectable but it still caused the loss of all my fish even with carbon running in the tank along with a GFO loaded with cupri ----- (that copper removing media) and a 20% water change. Amazingly the hermits and cucumbers lived without any ill effects. The heater was a titanium Aqua-Medic. I lost a Venustus angel, two helfrichi, two high fin red banded goby and a couple of chromis. What a waste!

Sohal Tang Tim
01/04/2010, 08:17 PM
I am not saying you are wrong...but......

howwwwwwwwww do you know for sure that was the cause of the loss
of the fish?

Inverts are more delicate and would have died first????

If you are wrong then the real reason is still unknown...????????
:confused:

Tim

Demonic
01/04/2010, 08:39 PM
I have heard seahares can emmit toxins also.....and I saw a tank full of fish....lets say about 100 fish in a 70 gallon tank.....within 4 or 5 minutes all 100 fish were upside down
when a box fish/cowfish cannot remember which was put in and let go some toxin in the tank! It was scary quick and they all died right in front of our eyes! The seahare may
have caused the problem..... Not sure at all though.....sorry to hear of your trouble.

Tim

I am going to say that there was a bigger problem than the cowfish with that tank. 100 fish in a 70 gallon, really? The cowfish did a favor for that tank. Cowfish are the most mislead fish. I love them and have never had any issues. Even when I had them pass due to problems I caused it never hurt any other fish.

Sohal Tang Tim
01/04/2010, 11:07 PM
You misunderstand...the guy brought the cowfish back to the STORE to
trade it back in.... The store put it in a tank full of a whole school of
whatever.....and within 60 seconds they all started to die one after another.

This was a LFS stock tank not a reef!

It was definitely the cowfish/boxfish that killed them no doubt about it...I just cannot remember which one of the two....

Tim

davocean
01/04/2010, 11:34 PM
Keep in mind that clowns will often fight and possibly kill each other when there is more than one pair.
Also, condy's are not the best choice for a host nem, their sting is much stronger than other nems.
Also, what LED lights are you using?

beachgyrl0
01/05/2010, 01:05 AM
For how long had the clowns been in the tank?

Have they ever been well for a duration before?

If not, the problem could well be pre-existing and they just lived long enough to be sold. The way a fish is capture and treated in transit and holding are important to chance of long survival.

Any acutely developing disease can also be the cause. Some bacterial infection can advance quickly, especially in the confinement of a tank without the dilution effect of the ocean.

the clowns were only in the tank for 2 or 3 days and then they all died..I didnt have them long, I let the tank cycle for about a whole month before they were added..as u read above tank is only a little over a month old.

beachgyrl0
01/05/2010, 01:13 AM
Keep in mind that clowns will often fight and possibly kill each other when there is more than one pair.
Also, condy's are not the best choice for a host nem, their sting is much stronger than other nems.
Also, what LED lights are you using?

I seen no fighting with the clowns..and i also didnt see anything wrong with any of them.

I will be honest and tell you I know my corals, but I dont know my anemones..my lfs knew i needed them for clowns and never told me it was a bad idea so i went ahead with it.

LED lights are the stock ones that are on the new LED nano cube.

davocean
01/05/2010, 09:24 AM
Yeah, that's a fairly heavy bioload for even an established tank of that size.
As for condy's, some have had luck w/ them as hosts, but it seems to take a bit for clowns to adapt to them compared to other host nems.
LEDs vary in PAR value, so something like powerbrights will not sustain a nem or corals, not sure what your stock LEDs are.

Ohiomom
01/05/2010, 09:32 AM
One question, why did you "need" an anemone?

tahoe61
01/05/2010, 10:06 AM
If all the information had been provided at the beginning you would have recieved a more appropriate response, and not a circus as you call it. You mentioned that you " have a pretty good idea of what your doing".
Baby clowns require frequent feedings throughout the day. That will foul any aquarium quickly. The sudden loss of so many fish is tragic regardless of their maturity. Glad you came forward to provide more information. Condy anemones in the same sm. tank as two diamond gobies and six baby clowns, that was a setup bound to fail from the start.

beachgyrl0
01/06/2010, 12:04 AM
Dont worry everyone I drained the tank. Dont need to worry about it anymore.

beachgyrl0
01/06/2010, 12:05 AM
One question, why did you "need" an anemone?

I did not need. I wanted.

tahoe61
01/06/2010, 09:59 AM
No one adviced you to empty the system. I have the same tank, but with 150 watt MH lighting instead. Just try a different approach, granted the systems needs to be at least 6 months old, and ideally one year to keep anemones that thrive. I have been in this hobby for over 25 years and I learn something new each and every day and welcome the knowledge. I love tanks that are zoa's and mushrooms only and they would look really cool under LEDS. And they require the least amount of care and tolerate less than optimal water conditions. I keep three Nano's all different one SPS and clams, one soft corals and anemones, and the other I call the green tank because everything I add to the tank is green in color. Each tank have one pair of clowns. From this experience please take the concept that research is a most and that a basic tank can be fun and challanging at the same time. Good Luck.:fish1:

beachgyrl0
01/06/2010, 08:57 PM
No one adviced you to empty the system. I have the same tank, but with 150 watt MH lighting instead. Just try a different approach, granted the systems needs to be at least 6 months old, and ideally one year to keep anemones that thrive. I have been in this hobby for over 25 years and I learn something new each and every day and welcome the knowledge. I love tanks that are zoa's and mushrooms only and they would look really cool under LEDS. And they require the least amount of care and tolerate less than optimal water conditions. I keep three Nano's all different one SPS and clams, one soft corals and anemones, and the other I call the green tank because everything I add to the tank is green in color. Each tank have one pair of clowns. From this experience please take the concept that research is a most and that a basic tank can be fun and challanging at the same time. Good Luck.:fish1:

I do appreciate advice and knowledge..and i learn a lot every day as well.
I know no one advised me to empty it. But I was frustrated, it was new and I debated about putting it up from day one..i also had the mh but gave it to my friend because at one point i had 3 28 cubes..But i have a beautiful thriving 320 gallon that i am going to keep my focus on. :bounce3:

Remicade
01/07/2010, 08:23 PM
sorry to hear you had to drain the tank. i was hoping to respond before you took it down.
if you tested every days and all the parameters were as stated then i doubt ammonia or nitrates killed them.
could be the food.
check the power cords in the tank if you had powerheads and your pump. a stray current could have killed them. inverts are really tough and live thru alot of tank crashes,
i would get a voltmeter and put it in the water with the pumps and everything running to see if there was a stray current. could be tainted food to, even though it was frozen when you got it might not be before you got it.


with the 6 small clowns would be really cool to see in that tank. i know my tiny 2 snocasso's are something to watch, but 6 clowns would be funny. what type of clowns were they?
i could care less how people stock their systems. i know my nano is over stocked but i dont care. i hope you chane your mind and put up the tank again and have fun with it. if you get more clowns then get a gree or rose bubble tip. they will host most clowns. i got a rbta for my snows.

tahoe61
01/07/2010, 08:38 PM
By all means have fun, disregard everything that was offerd advice wise by people with years and years of experience, go ahead put gobies in with anemones and while your at it add 6 clownfishs. I have 25+ years of SW experience and when you start experimenting with SW animals for your fun and enjoyment at the risk of lossing those animals than you should rethink if this hobby is for you. As I stated earlier this tank setup was bound for failure.:eek2:

beachgyrl0
01/08/2010, 01:53 AM
sorry to hear you had to drain the tank. i was hoping to respond before you took it down.
if you tested every days and all the parameters were as stated then i doubt ammonia or nitrates killed them.
could be the food.
check the power cords in the tank if you had powerheads and your pump. a stray current could have killed them. inverts are really tough and live thru alot of tank crashes,
i would get a voltmeter and put it in the water with the pumps and everything running to see if there was a stray current. could be tainted food to, even though it was frozen when you got it might not be before you got it.


with the 6 small clowns would be really cool to see in that tank. i know my tiny 2 snocasso's are something to watch, but 6 clowns would be funny. what type of clowns were they?
i could care less how people stock their systems. i know my nano is over stocked but i dont care. i hope you chane your mind and put up the tank again and have fun with it. if you get more clowns then get a gree or rose bubble tip. they will host most clowns. i got a rbta for my snows.

Thank you for your advice. I did put it back up and i am going to stock it as i please..i have a plan and its gonna happen. i really do believe that it was the food. but the voltmeter is a good idea and its something i will look into. :love1:

evsalty
01/08/2010, 02:15 AM
Thank you for your advice. I did put it back up and i am going to stock it as i please..i have a plan and its gonna happen. i really do believe that it was the food. but the voltmeter is a good idea and its something i will look into. :love1:Seeing that fish from another non connected tank also died after feeding the same batch of food does suggest that the food may be the issue. But I do want to say that adding 6 fish all at once to such a small tank is GOING to cause an ammonia spike reguardless of your tanks cycle strength and size of fish. So as a suggestion for the future as you restock this tank, take it a bit slower on the additions. Good luck an sorry for your losses.

ILoveSeahorses
01/08/2010, 02:18 AM
By all means have fun, disregard everything that was offerd advice wise by people with years and years of experience, go ahead put gobies in with anemones and while your at it add 6 clownfishs. I have 25+ years of SW experience and when you start experimenting with SW animals for your fun and enjoyment at the risk of lossing those animals than you should rethink if this hobby is for you. As I stated earlier this tank setup was bound for failure.:eek2:




Well...I don't think anybody adviced anyone.. and nobody really advised her to do anything specific.. but instead offered their own experiences and input.. isn't the entire purpose of a forum to HELP people... to SHARE experiences.. OFFER advice.... and let them make their own judgement call? Why is it such a problem that the tank was taken down? Seems like they thought there was a problem with the water so they drained the tank to start it over again since it's so new anyways.

Every tank has the potential to crash. Been there, done that! It happens!!! Things die, all the time. The point of this hobby is to learn by trial and error. Not one person can say that they have never had anything die.. Do you honestly believe that somebody would go and spend their well earned dollars on fish just to have the "fun and enjoyment" of killing them... as you have suggested?

To the original post maker -- I am sorry that you didn't get much helpful advice here. Seems like instead of helping you out that you're just being bashed for "poor husbandry", setting up a tank that was "bound for failure" from the get go, and for your entertainment at the expense of the livestock inside.. :lolspin: You people crack me up. She's been nothing but nice and has been nothing but attacked.

Good luck with your tank this time around! :wave:

tahoe61
01/08/2010, 09:19 AM
I have not lost any tank inhabiants in years and if you re-read the post I did indeed offer advice.
If you start out with the mind set that you are doing something that might cause loss of life for your tank inhabitants, but that is OK because everyone has things that die, I feel truly sorry for any system you set up.
No the point of the hobby is not to learn by trail and error, the point of the hobby is to provide the best possible care to the animals that rely on you to make the right decisions regarding their care.
The potential for a tank to crash increases exponentially when overstocked and you do not do your research regarding the needs and requirements of purchases before you buy impulsively.
Yes it could have been the food, but regardless this tank is a prime example of poor husbandry, and lack of research with true disregard for those animals that depended on you to keep them alive and healthy.

mstng67
01/08/2010, 09:55 AM
i have not lost any tank inhabiants in years and if you re-read the post i did indeed offer advice.
If you start out with the mind set that you are doing something that might cause loss of life for your tank inhabitants, but that is ok because everyone has things that die, i feel truly sorry for any system you set up.
No the point of the hobby is not to learn by trail and error, the point of the hobby is to provide the best possible care to the animals that rely on you to make the right decisions regarding their care.
The potential for a tank to crash increases exponentially when overstocked and you do not do your research regarding the needs and requirements of purchases before you buy impulsively.
Yes it could have been the food, but regardless this tank is a prime example of poor husbandry, and lack of research with true disregard for those animals that depended on you to keep them alive and healthy.

amen!