Plumbing critique before I start gluing

[jet fixer]

Can I get a critique of my plumbing before I start marking and gluing? I also have a few questions.

I'm going with a Herbie drain system I posted a thread about the returns in this thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1765093

It seems like the best way that fit within my plans.

Here are two photo's of how I have the plumbing set up now.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2698/4228313399_4982739ecb.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2785/4229081096_18998ccdd0.jpg

Look good?

Now for my questions:
1) The boxes in the refuge section are the approximate height of the planned sand bed is that pipe too close?

2) How many and what size holes should I drill into the above referenced pipe? Or should I just remove it and have the water exit out of the 45?

Here is a close-up of the pipe I'm talking about
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4018/4229082222_96d86b42da.jpg

This is the first time I've actually plumbed a tank before so, I'm not that confident in my design abilities. Am I overlooking something that may cause problems in the future? I plan on marking all the connections prior to removing them to ensure they get lined up the same after reinstalling.

[7Dragons7]

I would just let the water flow out of the 45.

from experience that valve that you have with the red handle will salt up in a couple of months and no longer work.

[jet fixer]

I would just let the water flow out of the 45.

from experience that valve that you have with the red handle will salt up in a couple of months and no longer work.

Do you mean the ball valve to regulate flow to the fuge or the gate valve regulating return flow to the tank?

[jet fixer]

I just thought of two more questions:

1. Should I put some closed cell foam under the sump?

2. I need to add a threaded union should I put it before or after the gate valve on the return?

[joeparrish]

I would just let the water flow out of the 45.

from experience that valve that you have with the red handle will salt up in a couple of months and no longer work.

what kind of valve should people use

[auntdeb]

FWIW, I had that exact same type of valve on our 125g for 5 1/2 years and never once had a problem with it getting 'salted up' or not working.

[WharfRat]

I've used many pvc ball valves in marine applications and have never had any of them fail or stop working.
For the spray bar into the fuge..you could go with 1/4 - 3/8 holes and don't glue that pipe so you can adjust it if need be..a dry fit will hold for the amount of pressure that will be going through it. Other than that it looks pretty good. Remeber to mark your fittings before pulling them apart to glue so you know where they went as far as angles go.

[Bigred]

from experience that valve that you have with the red handle will salt up in a couple of months and no longer work.

I have been using that type of ball valve for 9 years and never have had a issue.

[Bigred]

After looking at the picture again. I would put a union on each of the pipes so they can be removed if you need to remove the sump for some reason. On the return pipe do the union on the pump side of the valve so you can stop the flow when you have to service the pump. Just some simple suggestions.

[7Dragons7]

maybe i got a bad ball valve then, but mine got so salted up internally that it would no longer work and I ended up breaking the handle off.

I have used the larger ball valves with double unions and have had not trouble with them.

[ToolmanRR]

Hey Jet Fixer,
Where did you get those PVC gate valves at? They look pretty solid.
Thanks,
ToolmanRR

[4218kris]

I would just let the water flow out of the 45.

from experience that valve that you have with the red handle will salt up in a couple of months and no longer work. salt up from the inside? there is no salt on mine on the outside. mine is working fine for about 8 months so far so good.

[jet fixer]

Hey Jet Fixer,
Where did you get those PVC gate valves at? They look pretty solid.
Thanks,
ToolmanRR

I got them at US plastics
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=24447&catid=584

Check ACE hardware first I think I saw some there after I purchased these.

[jet fixer]

After looking at the picture again. I would put a union on each of the pipes so they can be removed if you need to remove the sump for some reason. On the return pipe do the union on the pump side of the valve so you can stop the flow when you have to service the pump. Just some simple suggestions.

I put threaded adapters on both drains so they are easy to remove. Just to double check I'm putting the union between the Wye and 1" gate valve.

[uncleof6]

Sch 40 gate valves have EPDM seals in them, and these do not hold up to salt water very well. Look for Sch 80 gate valves with Viton seals, they hold up well. Also, having valves that can be disassembled can save you some head aches also.

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/uncleof6/DSCN0247.jpg

Feeding the fuge and/or sand bed with drain lines, is asking to turn the fuge into a garbage dump. Also, for an RDSB, I don't think your flow rate is going to be high enough for it, allowing detritus to fall out, and rot. More intuitive, is drain lines into the skimmer section, and feeding the DSB from the return line, or often another pump, depending on the flow requirements.

Also, IME (I am not alone on this) it is not a good idea to have a valve on a drain line. Flow rate should be controlled at the pump outlet only. Drains are finicky enough without the added complication. The only time a valve should be used on a drain line is in the case of a full siphon. Unions? Ehhh, I fail to see a really useful purpose for them. Though some feel more comfortable with them, they are just another choke point. Folks have a tendency to over complicate their drain lines, and not surprisingly, it is the one area that presents constant problems-- almost universally.

Regards,

Jim

[ToolmanRR]

I think it's a good idea to have a valve on the drain side ONLY to be used during maintenance though. When you MAY need to stop any water from dripping and stuff.
That's my $0.02.

[ToolmanRR]

UncleOf6,
Have you found that simply having a valve in the drain side that is not being used at all to control flow, and is left open whenever water is flowing is a bad idea? Would "stuff" want to cling to that area and build up or something?

[uncleof6]

Yup "stuff" will cling, stick, clog, what have you, plus it presents a "restriction" in the drain line (increased friction through the valve,) causes additional turbulence in the drain line-- an issue with air/water drain lines (AKA Dusro modified types.) Same goes with unions.

Jim

[Cjsparky]

The valve on the drain side is for the Herbie silent drain system I think...I WOULD use a union gate valve here for when it needs maintenance, or at lease put a union on both sides close onough to get a brush in there and clean it out...

This is a true Herbie right? That pipe right next to it is the emergency overflow I think...

The valve is necessary to matching the drain output to the pump output. The nice thing about the Herbie from what I have read is that if starts slowing up the flow of water, the water level inside the overflow increases, causing more head pressure on the drain line, causing it to equalize again. In the case of full failure, the water level finally grows in the overflow, and overflows into the emergency drain, which will take the water albeit loudly, to the same place.

CJ

[uncleof6]

Sure enough a herbie, that's what I get for being a smart A**. I will stick with the rest of my critique however. Need the valve on the siphon line. However, the Herbie will not self adjust, unless it is a modified Herbie (an open channel rather than a dry emergency), but in that case there is no emergency back up for it really. Bean's system covers all the bases, however, with only two holes for drains, kinda stuck with the herbie.

Jim

[Cjsparky]

Ahh, I thought once the head pressure inside the overflow grew through added water column height, the herbie did put more water through the drain restriction by increased pressure from the water column, and would continue to do this until the restriction raised the water column in the overflow enough for the water level to start dumping into the unrestricted emergency.

At that point it is useful to have the unions ther to brush out the gate valve, and re dial it in... It is quiet, but will probably take weekly adjustments, and maybe cleanings every other month or so...

CJ

[Cjsparky]

This is all just an educated guess however...my caveat is I have only READ about a herbie...

I am planning one now in my new setup however.

CJ

[Cjsparky]

oops double post...

[uncleof6]

This is all just an educated guess however...my caveat is I have only READ about a herbie...

I am planning one now in my new setup however.

CJ

Well education is a good thing, so to further that, an object lesson with the Herbie drain system and dynamic circumstances: (A lot of motor theory, but not really the point)

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1722515&highlight=motors&page=2

Regards,

Jim

[jet fixer]

This is a Herbie drain system. I have only read about them saw a few pictures and this was my interpretation. The 1 1/4" pipe on the left with the gate valve is the drain. It drains below the water level. The 1" pipe next to it is the emergency drain it ends above the water level so it can be heard. A picture of how it looks inside the overflow is below.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2734/4229798846_ca265172f3.jpg

Below is a close up of the gate valves and union. The union was added to ease taking the return apart if I ever need to.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2714/4228999081_c2fe878ede.jpg

Uncleof6,
You should recognize the sump you sent me the sketch-up file so I could get it built. You have me confused the only valve on the drain is the gate for the herbie. The ball valve feeds the fuge off the return. The 1" gate valve is to balance out the return pump with the drain.

In your photo is the left valve a schedule 80 ball valve and the one on the right a gate valve?

How can I tell the difference between a EPDM and Vinton seal?

[uncleof6]

This is a Herbie drain system. I have only read about them saw a few pictures and this was my interpretation. The 1 1/4" pipe on the left with the gate valve is the drain. It drains below the water level. The 1" pipe next to it is the emergency drain it ends above the water level so it can be heard. A picture of how it looks inside the overflow is below.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2734/4229798846_ca265172f3.jpg

Below is a close up of the gate valves and union. The union was added to ease taking the return apart if I ever need to.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2714/4228999081_c2fe878ede.jpg

Uncleof6,
You have me very confused the only valve on the drain is the gate for the herbie. The ball valve feeds the fuge off the return. The 1" gate valve is to balance out the return pump with the drain.

In your photo is the left valve a schedule 80 ball valve and the one on the right a gate valve?

What am I missing in the line voltage regulator thread that I need to know?

How can I tell the difference between a EPDM and Vinton seal?

Well I get confused also, sometimes very easily. The orientation of the Y in the return line, made the plumbing confusing. The way it is oriented is for flow coming down (as in split drain line) the line, not going up. A tee would serve you better. As far as that goes, be aware that the 1" emergency will not handle as much flow as the siphon, so set your flow rate to the 1" emergency rather than the capacity of the 1.25" siphon line. I would not even use the 1.25" rather reduce it to 1".

The valve on the left is a 1" sch 80 TU ball valve (viton seals), that disassembles for seal replacement. The left is a sch 80 gate valve 2", w/viton seals. The top comes off for replacement of the seals. The left valve is a Spears, and the right valve is a KBI.

The line voltage thread demonstrates the "non" dynamic nature of the herbie drain system, linked here in reply to the comment that it would compensate for a variance in flow rate. The voltage variation and motor theory in that thread, is irrelevant to this thread. The only relevant premise is that the Herbie will not dynamically adjust, and you still have to fiddle with it depending on conditions.

As for the viton seals, you have to buy a valve that says viton seals in the product information. Not all sch 80 valves or unions will have viton seals. You have to seek them out. Spears is a good source, and also KBI.

http://www.kbico.com/index.php?cPath=21_40

Jim

[boatbuilder]

use Hayward or equal gate valves...trust me I learned this the hard way. Those in your pix look like the same ones I got from Lowes.... melted em with a blow torch after switching to Hayward! Valve stems kept leaking.
FYI
Use full flow ball valves to open or close a system...used Hayward gate valves to regulate flow. Ball valves are hard to set when regulating flow on anything other than a closed loop.

[Cjsparky]

Wow those were some dynamic changes that tank flow was experiencing Jim. Let me ask you this...

I have a 6ft 125 gallon AGA, and am planning on having my return peek over the top, therefore my returns will NOT bu using any of the drilled holes in my overflows. I was planning on using the 4 holes, 2 in each overflow for a Herbie...Think I could do a Bean with that makeup instead?

CJ

[jet fixer]

I replaced the Wye with a T
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2683/4230078908_8762f89b19.jpg

Where is a good source for the higher quality gate valves?

either the west side of Phoenix or online.

[uncleof6]

use Hayward or equal gate valves...trust me I learned this the hard way. Those in your pix look like the same ones I got from Lowes.... melted em with a blow torch after switching to Hayward! Valve stems kept leaking.
FYI
Use full flow ball valves to open or close a system...used Hayward gate valves to regulate flow. Ball valves are hard to set when regulating flow on anything other than a closed loop.

EPDM seals, will leak every time. (But that valve pictured can't be had from HD or Lowes) mostly they carry cheap sch 40 valves. I would blow torch those myself. KBI is not top of the line, I generally use Spears, but they work fine-- sch 80 with viton seals.


Jim

[jet fixer]

EPDM seals, will leak every time. (But that valve pictured can't be had from HD or Lowes) mostly they carry cheap sch 40 valves. I would blow torch those myself. KBI is not top of the line, I generally use Spears, but they work fine-- sch 80 with viton seals.


Jim

I know patience is a necessity in this hobby buy at 15mpg I don't feel like driving all over town to not find what I'm looking for then waiting a week for mail order.

I took the gate valves apart and looked at the seals, are the EPDM seals on the cap and shaft? To save a little time and money can I just replace those seals and keep a few extra "just in case".
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4003/4231411840_4b8ed349e6.jpg


What about placing closed cell foam under the sump? Is it required

I'm also thinking of changing the spray bar in the fuge to 3/4" tubing with two 90 deg elbows I'm restricting flow any way so having the 90's shouldn't be an issue.

[uncleof6]

The shaft seals (o-rings) will probably leak first, so extras of those would be handy to have. They are not going to leak for a while, so you have time.

Foam is not needed under an acrylic tank. Under glass of similar construction it would be.

J