Ever had this happen to you?

[LobsterOfJustice]

You pick out a nice looking fish in the store... perfect looking, not a blemish on any fins or anywhere on the body. Take it home, acclimate it to the QT tank... wake up the next morning and its COVERED IN ICH? Theres white spots and smudges all over the fins and body. Where the heck did all this come from? More importantly, what should I do? Dont want to lose this guy. FW dip? Medicate with copper? Hyposalinity? Wait it out? Seems to be acting okay, although I havent seen him eat anything since I got him (other than picking at the rocks) Just got him yesterday and he was eating at the store.

[ricde]

Which one, the butterfly or the angel?

[ccampbell57]

Either administer copper or start the process of hyposalinity.

Either way you need to act fast if you want to save the little guy.

This scenario happens all the time and is the main reason people infect their entire tank. Fish in the store may be treated with a ton of meds and the water may be dosed with light copper to contain any ich outbreak. I know my LFS doses all fish tanks with .25 copper for just this reason.

This is the only way that the ich would not be there one day and then when you added him boom it is there.

[flameangel88]

Yes, a few years back when I received a 4.5-5" Purple Tang and the next day was full blown ich completely covered.

If your new fish is in a QT by itself I would say your lfs was running low dose of copper but if you added into you DT then it may be stress. The fact that it's covered with ich so fast the fish already had ich to begin with but was contained with copper in the holding tank.

If it was my fish I would keep it by itself and start treating with Cupramine since it was eating at the lfs it shouldn't be too skinny to go through with the treatment.

Good luck with your new fish.

[LobsterOfJustice]

Its the declivis...

I have some cupramine, I guess I will dose that. Should be faster acting than the process of loweing the salinity. I was really hoping to let him get settled in and everything before starting a treatment...

BTW I just sat and watched him and he is eating fine. Picking cyclopeeze out of the water and nori from a rock. He is in a 20g QT by himself.

Pretty worried and upset... I wouldnt have spent this much on a fish if there was anything wrong with him. Looked him over at the store trying to find a torn fin or smudge, any excuse not to buy him. He was perfect and for $260 I had to have him.

[flameangel88]

I see Chris already beat me to the post while I'm eating and typing with one hand.

My lfs also runs copper in the .25 neighborhood.

[flameangel88]

Whenever ich starts in my fowlr system the Declivis and Burgess butterflies are the first to rub their head against the rock while all the other fishes act normal. Usually I'll see on other fish a week to 10 days later. They are my best gauge.

Next time you pick up a fish from the store test their cooper level.

[ccampbell57]

Just make sure you slowly dose the cupramine (16 drops per 10g) for first day and then the same day 2.

I prefer hypo with butterflys because I know there is very little that can kill the fish. Copper is a toxin and any mis steps will cause significant issues.

[LobsterOfJustice]

Yeah. But it would take a day or two to get to treatment levels and honestly this guy is pretty covered. Maybe I'll use the copper just to get the worst of it off, then switch to hypo for the duration of the treatment.

Would he benefit from a FW dip?

[flameangel88]

Just make sure you slowly dose the cupramine (16 drops per 10g) for first day and then the same day 2.


Same here even though Seachem recommend 48 hours after the first dose and I could never hold off that long especially seeing the fish are covered.

I don't know the long term consequences (years down the road) but I never had any issue treating Declivis, Bugess and Semilarvatus with Cupramine on 30 days treatment. I perform WC (re-dose) after 2 weeks. Oh, remember to shut off the UV if you're running one.

[ccampbell57]

FW dip will help relieve some of the ich.

[flameangel88]

I've read many posts stating that FW dip gives relief but my concern is will it cause more stress or provide relief that outweights the stress for the fish during that process.


Don't stress yourself out as ich (and flukes) is easily treatable. Just watch your water parameters during the treatment period.

[LobsterOfJustice]

Well it looks like I'm not gonna FW dip as I had some trouble matching pH. Just hooked up my new pH probe to my meter and calibrated it, and it's reading that my RODI water is somewhere between 8-9 and the QT tank water initially reads 6 but creeps up and stabilizes at 7.5. I double and triple checked the calibration. I dont know why the RODI would be that high but I guess its possible the QT tank is that low. Either way, I dont trust those readings enough to do a FW dip with.

He's also already getting comfy and trusting me, just fed him again and he came right up and ate in front of me (garlic soaked brine). I'd hate to "betray his trust" just as he's settling in. But I'll do it if I have to, I'll find some way to measure pH and make up a dip if he needs it.

Thanks for the help guys, I'm used to being on the other end of these situations. I'll keep you posted.

[ccampbell57]

If he is eating, administer the copper.

Watch the ph as it will drop. Also you will notice his appetite taking a little dip. That is normal.

Slowly raise the copper level to .5 over the course of 2-3 days

[LobsterOfJustice]

Hmm, well I had already administered the copper so that explains the low pH reading (not the high RO reading however...). Should I mess with the pH or just let it be low while using the copper?

[ccampbell57]

Keep the pH at 8.1-8.3. Throw in some buffer

[iFrag]

IME if the fish is eating and acting normal I just soak all the food with garlic and throw in a cleaner shrimp and let him/her ride it out..

[ccampbell57]

iFrag - your idea is only if the fish has been in captivity for a while and is healthy. All you are doing is trying to have the fish' immune system fight off the ich.

QT is required to irradicate the organism. If you do not use copper, quinine, or hypo the ich will remain in a dormant state.

If you do not act on it you will almost certainly lose your fish.

IMHO - this is a recommendation of aquarists that believe nature will take it's couse as it does in the ocean. However our fish are in confined spaces and all issues are magnified by 100.

[flameangel88]

IME if the fish is eating and acting normal I just soak all the food with garlic and throw in a cleaner shrimp and let him/her ride it out..

Early stage maybe but not when the OP stated "wake up the next morning and its COVERED IN ICH".

[odiest]

I agree that when the fish is covered, the garlic and cleaner shrimp won't work, its time to bring out the big guns and treat the fish.

[tcmfish]

Just dose your cupramine as recommended and keep the water quality in line. The fish should pull through especially since it has been eating. A pH that low is probably stressing the hell out of that fish.

I remember when I first got a calcium reactor and wasn't topping off with kalk and hooked it up the first night I was so excited I was going to have a reef! The next morning I woke up with a pH of 7.8 and I could see signs of discomfort in the fish mainly the emperor angel I had at the time.

I would really try and get that up but slowly don't shock them too much. Also I wouldn't switch to hypo after copper, SOMEONE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, but isn't copper more toxic at lower salinity or is it ammonia or both?

[Big E]

Yeah. But it would take a day or two to get to treatment levels and honestly this guy is pretty covered. Maybe I'll use the copper just to get the worst of it off, then switch to hypo for the duration of the treatment.


I would have done hypo because of it being a butterfly. I'm not sure where you are getting that you have to lower the salinity over days. I've done it in 8 hours or so many times with no ill effects. When you raise the salinity back up is when you have to take your time. Hypo will eradicate the visual covering in 24-48 hours........I don't think copper is really any faster.

If you're doing the copper just stick with that..........don't switch to hypo. Do one or the other.

Would he benefit from a FW dip?

It would kill off any other pathogen besides ich that might be on the fish but as far as helping with the ich don't bother. The copper or hypo will be more than fast enough relief.

[doublejesus]

garlic + selcon soaked foods and a couple cleaners have always worked for me. I had a hippo tang covered in ich a few days after I got it and it fought through as it never stopped eating. It was .5" when I got it and it's probably 2"+ now and doing great.

[LobsterOfJustice]

He is far from out of the woods but is looking a lot better today. Still eating well. I put the first dose of copper in mid-day yesterday, and last night I put half the second dose in. I've buffered the pH with baked baking soda. I did a 25% water change this morning (making sure to replace the copper) because there is some LR in the tank and I would expect some dieoff... and because I'm feeding him a ton. I will probably do another 25% change this evening and put the final dose of copper in. Up to this point I've been just dosing according to the directions but I'll see if I can pick up a copper kit (probably not though).

[ccampbell57]

Definitely get a copper test kit...

[cas]

garlic + selcon soaked foods and a couple cleaners have always worked for me. I had a hippo tang covered in ich a few days after I got it and it fought through as it never stopped eating. It was .5" when I got it and it's probably 2"+ now and doing great.

This will not work the trophants (sp?) are under the skin where cleaner shrimp and cleaner fish are not able to get to them.

[tcmfish]

Replace the rock with PVC no need for copper absorbing things in a QT. You can also add fake plants too if you need more hiding places.

[LobsterOfJustice]

I dont mind sacrificing the rock, and I've got a kit now to account for any copper that is "absorbed". The idea was that the QT tank wouldn't necessarily be the hospital tank, but whatever. I think he'll feel more comfortable with rock rather than PVC and fake plants.

[tcmfish]

Whats the difference that would make him more comfortable? I don't think you necessarily need to change it out now when its clearly already stressed, but you can make caves and hiding spots much more easily out of PVC. Get a big size pipe and cut it in half.

[LobsterOfJustice]

My QT plan was to have the 20g with LR, etc and the 10g with PVC and plastics. I was going to put fish in the 20 to get them comfortable and fat, then move them to the 10 for prophylactic treatments.

I guess I messed up because I bought two fish at once, and put the smaller in the 10. I could have switched them but didnt want to put the majestic in the 20 after the butterflys outbreak... and the 10 seemed a little small for a ~4" butterfly. Thought I was doing the right thing by having two separate tanks but I guess if theyre too small and already have fish in them it doesnt matter.

[iamwhatiam52]

I believe Copper will kill any algae or inverts in the live rock. If so, the die-off could cause a problem.

[tcmfish]

Well sounds like you had a good plan, until this freak accident. But I would get a larger tank than a ten if possible at least a 20 or 29 should be good. So hopefully this fish pulls through and you will be good from there.

[LobsterOfJustice]

I've got a 30 breeder but that doesnt leave a lot of space for a second tank, but I guess Ill fit it somewhere.

I'm expecting some dieoff from the rock. I did two 25% waterchanges today, I will continue this for a few days.

He ate well this morning but began refusing food mid-day. He's spending more time hiding and seems to be breathing a little heavy... but he is covered in parasites, so I guess that's to be expected?

[Iwishihadgills]

Declivis are beautiful. Hope he pulls through

[WuHT]

one thing i wanna mention about FW dips : Prepare the water well in advance (so that your buffer actually works), then heat an amount you plan to dip with, but you might do multiple dips. worked for me, except I was too stupid to re-acclimate the fish to regular salinity.

[LobsterOfJustice]

Still kickin', less ich but the overall skin looks a little beat up, probably from having thousands of parasites burrow in to it. Does something like stress coat which claims to help with the skin and slime coat actually work?

Also, as he swims around he does a few twitches every once in a while. What would that indicate?

Eating nori as of this morning.

[Big E]

guess I messed up because I bought two fish at once, and put the smaller in the 10. I could have switched them but didnt want to put the majestic in the 20 after the butterflys outbreak... and the 10 seemed a little small for a ~4" butterfly. Thought I was doing the right thing by having two separate tanks but I guess if theyre too small and already have fish in them it doesnt matter.

You're plan was fine other than I just have the QT tanks with PVC or other inert objects. No reason to use rock. That's the right way to do it..........one fish per tank.

[LobsterOfJustice]

Just wanted to give an update - swimming around happily in the DT now. I did two weeks of copper and prazipro the second week. He ate kind of off/on during the prazi treatment but ate like a pig yesterday and considering both treatments were up I went ahead and put him in! Looks like he's enjoying the tank. The little majestic however is hiding from the multicolor who is being a wrassehole.

Thanks to everyone who helped me out!