Battle with algae - going on 1 year

[gliebig]

My tank (240gal) has been setup for about two years. It cycled properly and everything was going great for the first 9 months or so. Corals were growing fast, coraline was starting to color up. Then it turned to crap and I don't know why.
I went on vacation and when I came back I noticed that some hair and brown algae were begining to show up. I figured my parents may have overfed the tank, but I gave them strict instructions on what to do.
I upped my water changes and started dosing vodka (which worked incredibly well on my office tank). Problems got worse. This has been over a year now and I'm getting disgusted. I've lost all my snails (100's of them) a few times, 90% of my corals are gone.
I have a 125gal at the office and it's beautiful. I use the same method for that tank as I do my home tank.
I've had people tell me to up my water changes to do no water changes for a couple months. Get new lights to leave the tank dark for several days. Use PO4 media to your tanks to clean. :spin2:

I use RO/DI. Filters changed out regularly to keep tds low.
Ca - I have been using sealab28 blocks on all my tanks for years. 420-450
ALk - I use kent coral builder. Again on all my tanks. Dkh 10
Mag - brs mag buffer. 1300
Nitrates - Have been Zero for about a year. API test
PO4 - Very low. API test.
Feeding- Very light feeding of flake almost 1/day. PE mysis maybe 3x's/month
Lighting- 2x400 reeflux halides. 6 months old
A few months ago, I stopped doing water changes and the algae got worse. Then I started donig weekly water changes and it looks better....for a while, then the algae comes right back.

Here are some pics when the tank was looking good and then what it looks like now....

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/gliebig2006/gregshom2.jpg?t=1262706692

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/gliebig2006/greg001.jpg

For the past year.....
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/gliebig2006/tank2.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/gliebig2006/tank3.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/gliebig2006/tank4.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/gliebig2006/tank5.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/gliebig2006/tank1.jpg?t=1262707348

[reeftivo]

Your PO4 most likely is still present but is being utilized by the algae in the tank thus giving you false 0 readings. Increase overall flow in the tank, do 10 percent water changes every three days, run some quality GFO (RowaPhos), feed every other day and cut down your light cycle to about 4-5 hours a day. Also check your TFC membrane in your RO unit because while it may be reading 0 TDS, it may still be leaching silicates. I had the same problem with my RO reading 0 TDS and when I tested for silicates, they were off the chart until I changed out the membrane. The snails are probably dying because the algae is using up all the iodine in the system.

Skim wet for a while to remove nutrients faster.

Use a good 2-part instead of the blocks and alk builder (ESV B-ionic). It will add trace elements as well as alk and Ca in proper ratios. Much better than the blocks.

This all worked for me.

Tivo

[gliebig]

Thanks for the advice. I would think that my ro/di water be good since I use it for my other tank which looks great?

[Mark]

If it worsens when you don't do water changes, then you have something building up your phosphates and/or nitrates. Phosphate test kits will not register any that is bound to your substrate and rocks. I would ditch the calcium blocks and Kent product. The bulkreefsupply.com 2 part kits are pretty nice. I would test your RO filter. What's your incoming TDS? It might be so high, that you are burning through the DI cartridges faster than you think. Perhaps order a new DI cartridge when you order the BRS 2 part kit, as well as some GFO. GFO will go a long way to reducing silicates and phosphates.

What kind of skimmer are you using? If the water and additives are the same on both tanks, then the other area to compare is filtration.

I feel for you! It must be frustrating to be dealing with this a whole year now.

[serpentman]

This looks more like cyanobacteria rather than a true algae issue.

Also curious, what type of skimmer are your running? Also, are you running carbon?

The trick with cyano is that DOC's are a much more critical nutrient than PO4 and NO3 which is probably why it worsened when you forewent water changes. Flow is also an ingredient as cyano favors low flow/low oxygen water.

[quincy2008]

I had a very similar problem in my 220. I agree with all of the recommendations by the previous person. In addition raise your Mg levels to 1500-1600. I cured my hair algae problem completely. Good luck.

[gliebig]

I have an MSX250 skimmer on this tank and am currently running BRS GFO in two phosban reactors. It was looking better when I was doing large water changes until I didn't do one last week and the brown **** came back pretty good. Maybe I need to stop water changes and let it run.
There is pretty good flow in there. 2 vortech's running 100%, a modded maxijet1200 and a mag18 return.
Is it possible that the tank is recycling and I just need to leave it alone?

[Chiefsurfer]

well, cyano is what I assumed at first. I am not a prticular guru with all the dosing and what-not. However, what could be poisoning, could be dinoflagellettes. I hear they poison snails, and have heard they are particularly nasty to get rid of. Did you ever get a definite ID as to what the Algae is? Maybe if we could get some better shots of the algae(I know it may be hard). Do you have a friend that could take some of your remaining livestock, and to a tear-down?(I know, but after a year, you might have a real nasty problem, and if whatever it is kills all your CUC, you may have a hard fight with livestock in the tank.)

I also know you say theres a lot of flow. How many gph for the whole tank?

[hazmat319]

I fought dinoflagellates for a year. I did EVERYTHING. I finally broke down the tank. I wanted to upgrade anyway but I totally disinfected every piece of equipment I was going to reuse. I wasn't about to go through that again.

As luck might have it....I got Bryopsis instead. From a piece of live rock:sad2::sad1:

What you have doesn't look like my kind of dinoflagellates but from your description it seems to have the same characteristics. And dinos are toxic to snails

Good luck. I totally understand how this can wear you down.

[Chiefsurfer]

BTW, nice rockfish(striped bass), catch that yourself? I am an avid striper fisherman myself, that's why I noticed.

[gliebig]

BTW, nice rockfish(striped bass), catch that yourself? I am an avid striper fisherman myself, that's why I noticed.

Yeah. Everytime I get a fish mounted, I immediately go out and catch a bigger one. We get a few every spring over 50# - all released. Actually, we catch so many big ones, that we don't even take pictures if they are under 40#'s anymore. :rollface:

[Chiefsurfer]

Yeah. Everytime I get a fish mounted, I immediately go out and catch a bigger one. We get a few every spring over 50# - all released. Actually, we catch so many big ones, that we don't even take pictures if they are under 40#'s anymore. :rollface:


Yeah, you guys suck down there. I have been fishing for about 12 years. About 10 of them just dead-sticking clams during the summer(no fish in summer) and my biggest is about 17# live-lining eels. I am now getting into the more elite types of striper-fishing with the huge sticker-price wooden lures, and hope for them to pay off this spring. I need to get something big sooner or later.

[sledge760]

How do you get 0 Nitrates for a year? I would always think there are some trace of Nitrates in a tank.

[gliebig]

How do you get 0 Nitrates for a year? I would always think there are some trace of Nitrates in a tank.

I don't know. I check nitrates with an API kit regularly and it's as bright yellow as you can get.

[gliebig]

Yeah, you guys suck down there. I have been fishing for about 12 years. About 10 of them just dead-sticking clams during the summer(no fish in summer) and my biggest is about 17# live-lining eels. I am now getting into the more elite types of striper-fishing with the huge sticker-price wooden lures, and hope for them to pay off this spring. I need to get something big sooner or later.

You need to make a trip to the susquehanna around april/may. There are some good guides that run the area. We get bigger ones earlier, but when the water warms, you can't beat the topwater bite.

[smoothdog]

I noticed in your pictures that your sandbed is fairly coarse. I went through the same problems with cyano and dinos when I went from FO to reef and it turned out my bed was around 3" deep and the coarse sand trapped everything turning it into a nutrient sink. I added enough oolitic (sugar sized) sand to get it over 4" and my problem cleared up within a couple months. I would definitely consider adding some fine sand to keep the large particulate matter from settling into the bed and make sure it is less than 1.5" deep (SSB) or more than 4" deep (DSB).

[Laddy]

Tank: All good recommendations. I'd keep up with the water changes, and run GFO in a large canister--I believe BRS has a bigger version along with TLF, which can handle large loads. Watch your alkalinity, though, GFO has a tendency to push down your numbers.

Fish: Ya, here in the SF bay area we can only dream of stripers that big. Good schoolies around 16-18# with the occasional hen in the 30+ range is what we see over here. Sure are fun to catch in the surf though!!! Almost that time of year to be spooling up the reels and making sure the waders made it through winter.

Good luck.

[luther1200]

I had a long bhattle with Brown Wafer algae a while back I finally beat it. It went on for probably a year though so I know how you feel. WHat finally did it for me was switching bto Bulk Reef Supply HC GFO. After only 2 months of running it the algae was basically gone. I would strongly suggest you at least give it a try running it in a reactor for a few months and see what happens. Good luck :)

[gliebig]

Thanks for all the replies. Here are some more pictures that I took last night. The brown stuff on the rocks waves around so it was hard to get pics of.

[hermitage]

You know...your tank doesn't look that bad. I've been fighting a major hair algae outbreak for 6 months after a tank crash. Prior to the crash, my tank was algae free for about 1 1/2 years. You're not going to like this, but I've stripped the tank, moved all livestock to a 150gal rubbermaid stock tank, and will be starting over. To me, I figure 2-3days of hard work on starting over, is an easier option thatn battling algae for 1+ years.

But who knows in this hobby, it could all come back. Or like one of the other posters said, I could get bryopsis! Gotta love this hobby.

[gliebig]

Since we have some fisherman on here....here are some recent pics of our trips....

My largest rockfish: 52#
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/gliebig2006/bigrock.jpg?t=1262874941

Our second place white marlin from this summer. Would've come in first place every year the past 27 years except this year: (not a fan of taking these fish, but the tournament has a release rate in the 90+% range.)
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/gliebig2006/wmo.jpg?t=1262874882

My friends big flounder this year:
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/gliebig2006/flounder.jpg?t=1262875062

My big tautog from the back bay:
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/gliebig2006/bigtog.jpg?t=1262874985

A jack I caught on topwater in Costa Rica 2 years ago:
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/gliebig2006/CostaR12.jpg?t=1262875016

[gliebig]

I think this is the best pic of the algae that I have. This is what is covering the rocks. You can see how it's kinda long and waves around with the current.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/gliebig2006/fish3.jpg?t=1262959858

[Chiefsurfer]

as far as I know, that's not anything we have suggested. Doesn't look like cyano, dino, OR diatoms. The stuff in the sand looks like cyano or diatoms. It seems to be 2 different algae issues. I see that you have vortech's, but they are all high. Resulting in lower currents at the sand, therefore probably causing dead-spots. I'd say move one lower in the tank, or add an adjustable angle powerhead like a koralia and direct it towards the worst area of sand.

[screwsloose]

i dont see it mentioned before but how old is your test kit? api recommends replacing them at least every 1 to 2 years. and if you dont shake the bottle like recommended on the nitrate over the period of testing the kit becomes far less accurate. might want to take a sample and have it tested elsewhere to see what you come up with. just a thought

[gliebig]

I bought the test kit about 3 months ago. How long it was sitting on the LFS shelf b4 that, I don't know. But I do make sure to follow the testing instructions.

[screwsloose]

apis website has a thread to tell you how to date your test. somewhere in the batch number there is a code like 0509 that is the date manufactured. i think its right in teh middle but i may be wrong. i switched to saliferts test kits so i cant recall right off hand

[illal]

maybe the algae is consuming all the nutrients which is why nitrates and P04 are testing @ zero.... hard to belive those 2 things are zero otherwise you wouldnt have this problem IMO

[llebcire]

I've been fighting some sort of nuisance for the past 10 months and it's been very frustrating! Somedays you feel like tearing the tank down, other days it seems like it may be taking a turn for the better...

Similar situation, i.e. params test fine, but I have this nasty brownish reddish algae that creates bubbles in parts of my tank, and some sort of brown sponge-like algae in others.

Luckily I haven't lost snails, and while some of my sps is growing very well, I don't have good coloration in all my sps or my zoas.

I'm starting to think I have bad rock as I didn't have the problem before adding the rock - came from a 11 year old tank that couldn't grow sps...hmm...

Good luck and hang in there!

-Eric

[gliebig]

Just got some new calibration fluid for my tds meter from BRS. Tds from the ro/di is 0.

[smoothdog]

The sand looks totally undisturbed in all the posted pics. What do you do to keep the sand bed healthy? Do you vacuum it or have any sand stirring creatures in the tank? If you stir up a small section of it, does it quickly settle or does it stir up a bunch of particulate matter and cloud the tank?

[gliebig]

I siphon it occasionally when I do water changes. I have a sand sifting starfish and just added a sandsifting goby.

[chefmike]

My tanks have gone through the same thing...only way to really get rid of it is to tear the tank down rock by rock, scrubbing the algae off with a small brush then dunking them in sw to remove any particulate matter.

Once all the rock was removed, scrubbed and dunked I rebuilt the reef and haven't had problems with it anymore...I still run GFO and Carbon aggresively

I would also siphon out the substrate and start over...almost impossible to get that clean and it binds phosphates and nitrates really well

[smoothdog]

I siphon it occasionally when I do water changes. I have a sand sifting starfish and just added a sandsifting goby.

That's a good start but I'd add at least a handful of nassarius snails and a fighting conch or 2. Also, keep in mind that the sand sifting star will not only eat the detritus but will also eat the worms and other microfauna that that keep the bed clean. If you have a shallow bed it's not much of an issue but if it's deep then the star will just add to the problem.

[gliebig]

That's a good start but I'd add at least a handful of nassarius snails and a fighting conch or 2. Also, keep in mind that the sand sifting star will not only eat the detritus but will also eat the worms and other microfauna that that keep the bed clean. If you have a shallow bed it's not much of an issue but if it's deep then the star will just add to the problem.

Oh, I've had tons of nassarius snails. I've lost 100's of snails this past year. I'm a bit reluctant to go place an order for a bunch of snails only to see empty shells laying around again.
I recently put in about 2 dozen "tester" astreas and most of them have been doing ok for about a month now.

[gliebig]

Got my results back from AWT:

Ammonia.......Good.......... .003
Nitrite Good .007
Nitrate Good .2
Phosphate Good .01
Silica High .6
Potassium Low 127
Calcium Low 256
Boron Low 2.9
Molybdenum High .2
Stronium High 13.0
Magnesium Good 1388
Iodine Good .08
Copper Good .02
Alkalinity Good 3.16


I guess I have to figure out why my silica levels are so high. That could be a big part of my algae problems, but since I use the same water and supplements on my other tank, why does one tank look great and the other like crap?
I guess my API test kit way off because it says calcium was 410.

[wdt2000]

Why are your snails dying? What size CuC do you have? If you have dino I would raise your PH to remove that and add a large cuc to help with the other stuff.

[goldmaniac]

I think you're going to have to think outside of the box on this one. From your description, you've checked everything and all looks fine. Therefore, you have to consider the possibility that something is reporting something incorrectly, like the PO4 or TDS reading isn't accurate. Maybe your RO/DI is leaching something that you're not noticing. Like Silicates.
The sand may be a nutrient sink, as well...

good luck

[luther1200]

There is obviously PO4 and maybe No3 or you wouldn't have these problems. Thats why test kits are a catch 22 in these situations, IMO. The algae is using and taking up all the nutrients before the tests can register them. So they really aren't very helpful until you get to a point were that isn't happening. But the Silicates may be an issue. You might want to get a Silicate buster DI resin or RO membrane.

Have you ever thought about dosing vodka, if you don't already?

[gliebig]

I did vodka dose. It worked well on my office tank, not too well on this one. I placed an order for silica specific di resin from BRS. I'm also going to try ditching the sea lab calcium block and coral builder (alk) and give the BRS two part a try.

[goldmaniac]

... I placed an order for silica specific di resin from BRS. I'm also going to try ditching the sea lab calcium block and coral builder (alk) and give the BRS two part a try.

That's probably the best thing to try next

[Nova101]

You are getting some funky sandbed advise in this thread.

I won't start a giant sandbed debate, but I recommend you read extensively about them.

[gliebig]

My tests results differ a good bit from the AWT tests.
Here's there results:

Ca: 256
Alk: 3.16 (meq/L)....don't know what that is
Silica: .6

My results as of tonight:
Ca: API test: 420 did it 2x
Alk API: 10dkh Salifert: 10dkh
Silica with brand new Salifert kit:
Tap: 2.0
RO/DI: 0
Tank: 0

I've been seeing some coraline growth on some rock and powerheads. I don't think this would happen with my Ca level at 256, would it?

[gliebig]

Get home last night and stick my hand in the tank to feed the fish and I get a tingly feeling on my finger. Traced it back to my skimmer pumps. What do you do with pumps like this? Call the manufacturer and oder new pumps?

I ordered the 2 part buffer from BRS. I don't think I'm going to stick with this. It may be fine for smaller tanks, but you have to dose way too much on a larger system.

[Chupakabra-King]

Aha ! Stray voltage ! Do you have a grounding probe ? If not get one !

[gliebig]

Got one. It's been hooked up since day one.

[Chupakabra-King]

HMmmmm , then why are you getting a shock/tingle ? It should shunt the stray voltage to ground . If there is stray voltage in your tank that would explain why you are losing things . It wouldnt explain the algae though .

[gliebig]

I electrocuted my snails? :worried:

[Chupakabra-King]

Definitely get the tingle outta the water . Check your grounding probe to make sure its good . Get a meter and check your water afterwards. I wouldnt run that pump you said was leaking voltage into the water . Replace it and then check with a meter again . You dont want stray voltage in the water.