pH buffer. simple question

[romsoccer12]

does it decrease or increase the pH? the directions suck

[jefathome]

Depends on what you are using... Need more details.

[Playa-1]

pH buffer might be a bad idea. What are you trying to accomplish?

[Juruense]

There are no simple questions here!

[Chiefsurfer]

the ph buffer I bought(seachem I think) adjusts to correct, not increasing or decreasing specifically. I did it upon setup, as my RO was very low(6.6 i think) and my ph has been constant SINCE start-up, and never had an issue with any other levels(ca, mg, alk, etc.)

[romsoccer12]

instant ocean sea buffer.

[bertoni]

pH buffers will raise both alkalinity and pH. The pH effect is temporary, and aeration will drive the pH back down. pH buffers should only be dosed as alkalinity supplements. pH problems are caused by high carbon dioxide, and generally require a separate fix.

[romsoccer12]

so your saying i shouldnt dose alklinity with the buffer? because i normally dont dose alk anyway. Ive been trying for a while to fix it, adding more aeration, longer light to darkness switch, better alk measurements, but they all failed so I gave up and now want to try a buffer.

[bertoni]

Keeping the alkalinity in the 7-11 dKH range will help with pH. You'll need an alkalinity test kit to see how much of the buffer you can add without causing problems. The most likely cause of low pH is high carbon dioxide.

What is the pH in the system? How about alkalinity?

[rale2001]

Break the water surface with one of ur power heads that's how I made a perm fix for my ph problems I have the same seachem buffer that I add once every two to three weeks to maintain just the buffer alone wouldn't raise my ph one bit. Do u have a splash guard or a lid on ur tank?? I had a splash guard and I took that off to have an open tank and that also helped too.

[romsoccer12]

i have a powerhead almost facing up, and I took off my cover. still no better affects. bertoni, i dont dose alk anymore.

[Playa-1]

Not much information being shard Colin.
Why are you holding out?

[romsoccer12]

idk what else to say

[crvz]

what are you trying to accomplish. There is almost no reason to control or manage pH, and most of the methods to do so result in other negative affects on the system. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone try to control pH through a buffer without realizing that the buffer also increases alkalinity; thereby crashing their systems by ODing alkalinity.

So please share; what are you trying to accomplish?

[romsoccer12]

my pH heavily drops at night, causing corals and fish to be stressed big time. i dont dose alkilinity anymore so i dont see how this can be a problem

[crownjules]

i dont dose alkilinity anymore so i dont see how this can be a problem

Actually, that's probably the problem. Or at least contributing to it. Alkalinity is a necessity in a reef tank and it's not going to stay at levels you need. It gets used up keeping your pH stable (why it's called a buffer) and as "food" for your corals. If you let alkalinity drop too far, it will result in a pH crash.

Overnight there will be a slight drop in pH. Photosynthesis is not occuring to take CO2 out of solution and it will lower your pH. I suspect not dosing alkalinity is compounding the effect.

[romsoccer12]

ive been told that and i started dosing alk. it didnt help. kept it aorund 8-9

[crvz]

my pH heavily drops at night...

Bound this for me. What is your pH range. pH naturally falls at night, and as long as it's over the 7.7 or 7.8 range, it is not the issue.

I'd also ask how you're testing pH. Test kits are hopelessly inaccurate; without a recently calibrated probe, I wouldnt trust your pH data.

And finally, how are you fish actually responding? You say they're stressed out; what are they doing and how have you correlated it to pH?

[romsoccer12]

drops to around 7.4-7.5 and yes i use a normal test kit, but pH is normally an easy one and im pretty sure i get accurate testings but not 100%. ive gone through many threads of "problems" with certain animals and corals. one being my shrimp always die in a couple month. I came to teh conclusion it was pH drop at night being to stressful and the shrimp slowly died. Also, my zoanthids never open, no pests or diseases on them. also in that thread i came to the conclusion that it was pH problems. My one fish constantly has white stress marks on it all the time! When i first got it they never where there. My watchman goby is always out of his burrow at night, swimming around not asleep. Im no as sure as the fish as I am the shrimp and zoanthids being pH problems. My anemone also seems to move around a lot latly. NO temp fluctuations or bad params I have noticed. Even with the normal dosing of alk/calc i still had these problems

[bertoni]

I'd get a second opinion on the test kit. 7.4 is too low to be real, for the most part.

[romsoccer12]

if i bottled the water and sent brought it to my LFS, could the pH change in the bottle?

[crvz]

yes, it could easily change before you get to the LFS. If you want accurate pH data, you're going to need to test it real time. I would suggest a good monitor w/probe, or even something that has controlling features. I agree that a pH of 7.4 gives me pause, and while the test kit may be easy to use none of them are accurate or reliable.

[Playa-1]

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2002/chem.htm

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-05/rhf/index.php

If you haven't read this information before then this may help.

[bertoni]

The pH in the sample will drop somewhat on the way to the LFS, unless it's stirred or splashed, which will raise the pH. If the trip is short, the pH should be close enough. Half an hour likely will be fine.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There is almost no reason to control or manage pH,

I'm not sure I agree with that strong of an assertion, but I do agree that pH buffers are not the best way to deal with low pH.

FWIW, many people have pH well below the levels that have oceanographers very concerned for the future of corals and other calcifying organisms in the world's oceans.
:)

[crvz]

I'm not sure I agree with that strong of an assertion, but I do agree that pH buffers are not the best way to deal with low pH.

FWIW, many people have pH well below the levels that have oceanographers very concerned for the future of corals and other calcifying organisms in the world's oceans.
:)

Maybe better served in a different thread, but I'm confused as to what point you're trying to make. Either many folks have pH well below the levels that have oceanographers very concerned, and their tanks arent showing terrible signs of stress so it's not a big deal. OR, many folks have pH well below the levels that have oceanographers very concerned, so they should be concerned too. I lean more towards the first interpretation.

My point, based on my hobby level of experience in sustaining tanks over the years, as well as watching friends/acquaintances' tanks (in other words, my non-professional opinion), is that a pH over ~7.8 is "good enough", and usually the attempts to force pH higher have side effects that cause more trauma than a somewhat depleted pH would have ever done (such as chemically altering pH) or so much overhead (such as venting in outside air) that they arent even real options.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Many people have pH that gets below 7.8, and that is especially concerning, and merits control (IMO)

Additionally, I think the literature suggests that, beautiful tanks aside, many organisms thrive better at pH 8.2 than 7.8, and so a tank may benefit from a pH rise from 7.8 to 8.2, even if it already appears to look very nice. I agree that 7.8 and up is "good enough". Is it optimal? That is very much harder to easily answer, and may depend on your goals for the tank. :)