Do anyone of you use a deep sand bed anymore?

[reefslugs]

Does anyone of you use a deep sand bed anymore? I've been this hobby for many years. Back in the day, there used to be a rule of thumb about how mu
ch live rock you need for biological filtration. We also used deep sand beds.

I look at pictures here on RC, of the most beautiful tanks around the world. I see less live rock and very little sand in the bottoms. No one ever says what they have in their sumps. Of these tanks, do you have alot of live rock in your sump? Or do you have a refugium with a four inch sand bed? Or do you just do a ton of water changes all the time?

Here is why I ask. Like I said I've been in this hobby a long time. My last tank was a 110g. Full of sps and beautiful. All of my water chemistry was perfect. Last year I up graded to a 265g. I set it up just like my old 110g. But not using as many pounds of live rock and I still set it up with a four inch sand bed. Sold my ASM g3 skimmer and bought a Deltec AS702. I run a 65g refugium with no sand, but with a couple of pieces of live rock.

My problem is I can't keep sps alive anymore. Checking and testing everything, my only problem I see is nitrates.

[TWallace]

I have a 3-4" sand bed in my 120. No problelms with SPS. I rarely even test for nitrates since they're always 0ppm. I keep about 150 pounds of live rock between the display and the sump with refugium.

Personally I dislike the look of barebottom tanks. Plus I like keeping fish that require sand beds, like my red coris wrasse and blue spot jawfish.

[Metal Man 1221]

well iv got about a 3" bed 4" in some places, after i started using RODI water, my tank looks much better, i dont see any problems with DSBs just dont stirr them up, youll kick up the nitrates from the anobic (sp-?) zone

good luck with your troubles

[SIR PATRICK]

DSB? never again....unless its a remote/undisturbed one!!! There are too many ways to skin a cat these days...

[PaxRoma]

remote mud filter here

[khaosinc]

call me old fashioned or something, but I have 6+" in my DT. To many of the fish I intend to keep need/want burrows.

[Playa-1]

I keep a Remote DSB of about 8". The sand in the DT is more for looks and gets vacuumed or sifted on a regular basis. I would suggest that you keep about 1lb of liverock per gallon of water in the system.

[ChadTheSpike]

I also keep a live DSB remotely (soon to be two), then a shallow (~1/2") in the display. Remote DSBs seem to be the best of both worlds, also you can add a lot of macro to a remote tank to use up many excess nutrients from the water.

[grammatron]

I've got 4-5 inches or so, but my tank's still pretty young. I just like the look of a DSB, honestly. I like a lot of the sand-sifting critters too.

[golfish]

3-5 " in the main tank and a little more in the 30 gal remote.

[davocean]

I base it on what you keep, and I keep sand dwelling nems, so DSB for me, at least 5".
Been keeping SW tanks for almost 25 years, never had one crash from DSB.

[CalmSeasQuest]

4 1/2" in the front increasing to 6" in the back - I give up a lot of depth but I've never been able to measure any Nitrates. It's a good trade off to me. :)

http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy141/tconwell/DSC_0776_Low.jpg

[Reefbox]

I like a remote deep sand bed 4 denitrification and about 1/2-1 1/2" in display.

[FortyFour]

I, for one, tossed all my biological media and filled my sump with LR. I run a DSB in a seperate refugium where I grow cheato.

[hoffy02]

6" DSB in a stand alone fuge...

[210reefer]

I run between 2-4" throughout the display, soon to be adding 6" or so to the sump.

[muttley000]

I haven't been able to determine if sand beds are just not popular with the RC crowd, or if those that do not like them are just more vocal. This thread has shown more support to the DSB theory than any I have read in a long time, I wouldn't have a system without one somewhere.

Nice sig line 210reefer

[duane9]

can anyone reccommend a good sand to use for the DSB? I'm having a hard time finding the smaller sized sand in Ron Shimek's article.

[CalmSeasQuest]

can anyone reccommend a good sand to use for the DSB? I'm having a hard time finding the smaller sized sand in Ron Shimek's article.

I used Aragamax Select for the base and topped it 1.5" of SeaFlor Special (to prevent blowing.) This tank has only been up for 120 days, but so far I like it.

[CalmSeasQuest]

I haven't been able to determine if sand beds are just not popular with the RC crowd, or if those that do not like them are just more vocal. This thread has shown more support to the DSB theory than any I have read in a long time, I wouldn't have a system without one somewhere.

I think it's a combination of all many things...

- People tend to promote (often fervently) their choice
- You lose a fair amount of usable vertical space, especially with smaller tanks
- Higher initial expense (although for those with SSBs, I expect long term, continuing efforts to lower Nitrates are more expensive.)
- It doesn't look at "clean" as a SSB (subjective of course)
- There are some limitations as to the types of/numbers of borrowing livestock that can/should be kept
- Discussions about old tank syndrome or hearing about a failed DSB supposedly "wiping out" a tank. (This *should* be offset by the failures or lack of success of tanks resulting from high Nitrate levels or failed attempts at chemical denitrification.)

I also think DSBs got grouped in with plenums years ago and as a result of the many "spectacular" plenum failures, many don't see the benefit of DSBs.

On the pro side -

- It provides a more natural environment for livestock that live in/on the substrate
- Additional buffering capabilities, and most importantly (at least to me);

- Post cycle, I have NEVER been able to measure ANY Nitrates in a system with a DSB.

For me, the risk/reward calculations make DSBs an easy decision.

One caveat - I've never had a tank up long enough (about 5 years max for me) to encounter any of the issues some claim to have encountered with older DSBs. That said, I can't imagine ever having a tank without one.

[ChadTheSpike]

I think it's a combination of all many things...

- People tend to promote (often fervently) their choice
- You lose a fair amount of usable vertical space, especially with smaller tanks
- Higher initial expense (although for those with SSBs, I expect long term, continuing efforts to lower Nitrates are more expensive.)
- It doesn't look at "clean" as a SSB (subjective of course)
- There are some limitations as to the types of/numbers of borrowing livestock that can/should be kept
- Discussions about old tank syndrome or hearing about a failed DSB supposedly "wiping out" a tank. (This *should* be offset by the failures or lack of success of tanks resulting from high Nitrate levels or failed attempts at chemical denitrification.)

I also think DSBs got grouped in with plenums years ago and as a result of the many "spectacular" plenum failures, many don't see the benefit of DSBs.

On the pro side -

- It provides a more natural environment for livestock that live in/on the substrate
- Additional buffering capabilities, and most importantly (at least to me);

- Post cycle, I have NEVER been able to measure ANY Nitrates in a system with a DSB.

For me, the risk/reward calculations make DSBs an easy decision.

One caveat - I've never had a tank up long enough (about 5 years max for me) to encounter any of the issues some claim to have encountered with older DSBs. That said, I can't imagine ever having a tank without one.


Well said, I very much agree with you.

[sedor]

There are many other ways to remove nutrients for the system. Not to long ago DSBs were a popular choice at achieving that. It was introduced by an expert who did some research and testing and it caught on. As people started doing more and more research they began to realize that in order to really take advantage of a true DSB you would need it to be unreasonably deep, like 8 - 10" which is just ridiculous in our aquariums. Thus the remote DSB was born, which I still think is a fine idea.

As previously mentioned, its no longer as necessary to use a ton of LR and sand because we are using overpowered filtration as well as things like refugiums and carbon dosing. I wasn't able to keep SPS alive either until I turned to vodka dosing. That in itself was a learning experience, but now that i've got the hang of it, i'm finally starting to achieve what I always wanted to.

[CalmSeasQuest]

As people started doing more and more research they began to realize that in order to really take advantage of a true DSB you would need it to be unreasonably deep, like 8 - 10" which is just ridiculous in our aquariums. Thus the remote DSB was born, which I still think is a fine idea.

I agree with the value of a remote DSB, but I disagree with the need of a DSB of 8"-10". Everything I have read on the subject recommends a depth of 4"-6". I have obtained the NNR benefits of a DSB and never exceeded the 6" depth.

[davocean]

Over the years of reading here, it has seemed more 50/50 on the DSB/BB issue.
Though the sps seems to get more clout here, and serious sps guys run heavy flow, and thus ditch the sand to prevent sandstorms for one, as well as deitrus issues.

[bnicholson]

Anyone have a story about a DSB actually crashing and wiping the tank?

I've actually only heard one story so far, and it involved allowing the sand bed to die during a move rather then it just 'crashing'.

I have a 4"-6" sandbed in my tank, and I definitely like it. It looks way more natural and my tank has never had a nitrate reading.

[SIR PATRICK]

^ I have heard of them crashing and wiping out a tank, but never experianced it- at least from natural causes.

I have experianced huge nitrate spikes from disturbed sand beds though. Like going along great at o nitrate, to a powerhead falling overnight, blowing the dsb to the glass, with nitrates reading 50-100 ppm overnight.

I have also had dsb's become saturated (full of nutrients beyond the carrying capacity of the bed) in which time the bed will stop functioning as eficiantly. Proper sand bed husbandry (replacing sections of the bed, in the proper manner) will cause saturation effects to not be possible. The amount of time a dsb reaches saturation will fully depend on the husbandry of your tank. A dirty, neglected tank will fill a dsb pretty fast compared to a properly maintained tank.

I am still (and probly always will be) a fan of dsb's even though the set up I am using wont have one- just wont work with the setup I have running and can be counterproductive with the set up I will have. As long as dsb's are maintained properly, and understood- they can be great parts of our little reefs.

Beleive me- even thugh the dsb people arent very vocal about it- they are still out there in full force!

[Frogmanx82]

There aren't that many true DSB which is supposed to be a min of 5 inches. I have 3 inches in the front, and about an inch in the back under the live rock. I figure shallow in back where I can't get to it, deeper in the front where I can do an occasional vacuum. I just deep vacuum a very small area once a month or so. This isn't really DSB technology.

[duane9]

Can an undergravel filter system be incorporated under a sand bed or just use more powerheads?

[Cramz07]

no to my understanding at least. I think you want to leave the bottom layer as undisturbed as possible because of the process all these critters do to change raw nitrogen compounds to nitrogen gas. Also there is no need to because all those critters stir up this sand by themselves....Someone correct me if i'm wrong i've just read Ron Shimek's a few times and don't have experience with a true deep sand bed myself

[barderer]

you are correct. You can't have any O2 in the lower levels of your bed as the aerobic ,O2 loving, bacteria will out compete the anaerobic bacteria because of all the available O2. E.G. the short fall of a under gravel filter. The anaerobic bacteria are the ones that complete the cycle to its end.

[duane9]

is it ok to put plastic egg crate down first to protect the glass bottom of the tank?

[Mark426]

Other than the well know plus's and minus's...most people I know think they just plain look bad. There are so many other easy ways to do the have the same function, they just dont seem to be worth the downsides.

[Frogmanx82]

is it ok to put plastic egg crate down first to protect the glass bottom of the tank?

I assume you mean you will put the egg crate down and then cover with sand. That is fine, though I have never seen the reason to do that. Just put down a thin layer of sand, about an inch. Place the rock on that and the glass will be fine, then add sand to whatever depth you want.

[davocean]

is it ok to put plastic egg crate down first to protect the glass bottom of the tank?

I always do this.

[C0rp]

4 inch DSB here. I like the look of it. The ocean has a sand floor that organisms live and burrow in. I want to watch this happen in my home how it happens out there. Yeah, I've heard about DSB tank crashes....heard about cucumbers doin it too and people still keep them. I did a lot of research about DSBs and how to build them correctly. I believe I have done that and look forward to many many years of zero nitrates and a realistic ocean underworld to observe!

[badguitarist]

i'm definitly a deep sand bed guy. I have been using them since I set up my first tank over 10 years ago and wouldn't do it any other way. I have personally seen and or heard of many more tanks crashing from vodka dosing than I have from deep sand beds. the real issue for both methods is miss-application. When set up correctly a DSB will work great.

[Sk8r]

two of them, one in the dt, one as an rsb in the fuge. Wouldn't be without it. You CANNOT be without it if you want nassarius, conches, or jawfish etc.

[SPasse]

Hi All,

Back in the day I set up a lot of tanks with DSBs and was a student of Dr. Ron on this subject. I also followed a number of people that ran these systems when I was a moderator on this board. They were and remain a viable method of setting up a system.

My next system however will be a remote mud/macro algea bed system, as per my signature. (sans the DSB)

Regards,

Scott

[Gary Majchrzak]

Hi, Scott :wave:

No more DSB's in the display tank for me.
Remote DSB remains an option.


recent aquarium vid turn off sound! (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18239436&postcount=210)

[hardin4019]

So what is the consistency of the sand? Sugar fine or little more coarse and something more coarse like crushed coral on top to stop sand storms? I'd be interested if you guys think there is a formula that you would use to suggest a depth in a remote DSB, like using a 10g portion of a sump or a 5g bucket plumbed into the system? Most of you guys are talking about 4-5 Inches covering the bottom of the tank. Is it reasonable to figure out what kind of volume that is and put it into a smaller container and make it an even deeper bed?

[preef]

6 inches in fuge. 0 phosphates. 2.5 ppm nitrate. No GFO or carbon dosing.

[SPasse]

Hi, Scott :wave:

No more DSB's in the display tank for me.
Remote DSB remains an option.


recent aquarium vid turn off sound! (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18239436&postcount=210)

Hi Gary,

I remember you as well - it's been a long time! :wavehand:

Regards,

Scott

[SPasse]

So what is the consistency of the sand? Sugar fine or little more coarse and something more coarse like crushed coral on top to stop sand storms? I'd be interested if you guys think there is a formula that you would use to suggest a depth in a remote DSB, like using a 10g portion of a sump or a 5g bucket plumbed into the system? Most of you guys are talking about 4-5 Inches covering the bottom of the tank. Is it reasonable to figure out what kind of volume that is and put it into a smaller container and make it an even deeper bed?

I always had the best luck using this: http://www.aquatic-store.com/contents/en-us/p2274.html

This sand also was the consistancy recommended by Dr. Ron who was considered the "Godfather" of DSBs.

[Angel*Fish]

It's so nice to hear some other dsb fans out there. I loved my dsb and am starting my tank up as a dsb tank again.

In my opinion a huge part of their bad reputation is lack of information. There's no real how-to on RC. All we have is a sticky in the new to hobby forum that's a long 23 page dsb argument with some basic introductory info at the beginning. Not much of a newbie thread. For info one almost always has to refer people away from RC.

I see tons of posts like how deep does my dsb have to be? Someone answers 4-6 inches and the poster appears to think he's all set, when as we know that's just part of what he needs to know. I see many posts that ask what sand sifters should I add to my dsb --someone always says sand sifting stars and gobies.

These kinds of posts shouldn't even exist. Dsb's are sort of like making bread - rather easy, but you have to learn a few things first. If you leave out the yeast - failure.

I think the dsb is a special environment that deserves it's own forum here. Even seahorses and mantis's have their own forums. There's so much going on in the sand and some of us find it fascinating. I think it might lead to advancing dsb success and improvement of dsb methods.

A number of people have photomicroscopes - I'd love to see pics of their dsb critters :)

[Korrine]

Is this pretty good?

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm

[n0rk]

I run a 7" DSB in my pico as the primary filtration method, it's massively effective. I don't need to feed the tank as the DSB generates sufficient infauna to feed the corals, don't need to do WCs for anything other than ionic rebalancing (after 2.5 months I can pull up 0.00 on a Hanna and 0 on lowrange NO3 kits), and never need to clean the glass.

Best decision I ever made :)

[billdogg]

Before I had Hannibal's (4' Undulated Moray) tank set up as it is now, it was impossible to keep the nitrates down to anywhere near an acceptable level.

Now that his 150g tank has a 120g refugium with 6"DSB, LR, and Chaeto, the nitrates have become easily manageable.

When he finally goes to that big aquarium in the sky (he's at least 22 now) one big water change and I will have the perfectly cycle system for a great reef.

[rivoth]

I'm a firm believer in a Deep Sand Bed in the display tank. An important part of the function of the fauna living in a DSB is to consume left over food that settles. That won't happen properly if the DSB is located elsewhere.

[biecacka]

i run a BB tank and struggle w nitrates at times and have entertained the idea of a remote DSB in the sump or something. does anyone have some pics of theirs that they would like to share in this group?
corey

[JoeRonda]

is it ok to put plastic egg crate down first to protect the glass bottom of the tank?

I like to do this for two reasons. First to keep rock from grinding into the glass on the bottom of the tank, and to distribute weight so a hundred lbs. of rock isn't putting pressure all on like an inch of area, if there is a part of rock that is touching the glass lower than the rest.

[MelloW33]

Very glad I found this thread. I love my DSB in my 125, 6" in some spots. People always comment on the cool colors in the sand. When I re-do my tank, I'm probably only going to put 2" in the DT but 6-8" in a remote tank.

[biecacka]

another question, how does a DSB compare up to the new trend of bio pellets?

[hardin4019]

This is all awesome info. I am wondering If I can get away with a remote 10g or so tank with say 8" of sand in it to offset a 55g DT.

[TrojanScott]

I've always run a DSB. No crashes, not ever. I seriously don't believe that even happens, almost like an old wive's tale. With that said, I recently redid my tank, and I went with a 2" bed for looks, and still enough for a wrasse or nassarius snails. I don't like the look of barebottom either, but I'm trying a thinner sand bed, no benefits I'm sure other than the look of it. I do have a DSB in my refugium, but obviously it's nothing like what I had on a 6 foot tank in terms of area.

I decided against the DSB becuase it just seems really dirty when you do clean it out, and I don't know, lack of space I guess? The parts you just can't clean? At times, to me, it just looks less clean. Who knows. Also, a lot of nice tanks I've seen recently are doing the same. Less sand in the display. I'm trying something new I guess, experimenting. I'll see how it goes.

[badguitarist]

I am really enjoying this thread, probably the best discussion on DSB's I have seen in quite some time! From personal experience I can say when set up correctly they may not become dirty at all, that is not to say they can't get dirty just that they may not. I tore down my old tank about 4 months ago, it had been up and running for just over 3 years and had an 8 inch sand bed in the 10 gallon refugium. this sand was slightly larger than sugar fine (1-2 mm). when I took the sand bed out there was no detritus build up at all just a slight amount of yellowing to the water in the top of the bucket I put the sand in. there are several factors to the succes of this bed. first a smallish grain sand doesn't allow detritus to sink into the sand as much, instead it will stay at the surface where it will get eaten and or blown away by a brisk current, around 30 times per hour turnover rate in this refugium. second there was a heavy layer of Cheato on top which trapped a lot of detritus before it could sink to the sand. there was also a good network of Halophila and holodule species seagrass consuming and adding to the detritus. third there was a huge amount of critters living in the sand constantly feeding off waste and turning over the sand. I'm sure there are other factors that affected it I will post more as I think of them.
My current tank is right around four months old I have a 4-5 inch bed in the display that is sugar fine. I understand the issues of sand storms and have experienced them myself. That being said this is a 5 foot 120 gallon tank (60X18x26) I have a total flow of 6800 gallons an hour through the tank coming from 3 power heads and the return pump. I have zero issues with sand storms all it took was a bit of tweaking to get the pumps positioned correctly. this tank is 26 inches tall so it did allow me to get the pumps fairly high above the sand.
One last note with smaller and remote deep sand beds some of the benefits of a larger area are lost. I wont go into detail but anyone interested should read Ron Schimeks Work, as stated earlier he really is the pioneer of Deep Sand Beds. He isn't hard to find online.
THanks for an awesome thread everyone!

[badguitarist]

Oh one more quick thing. I have one documented crash of a DSB that i saw But there was also a very simple explanation for it. while working at a pet store about 7 years ago we had a 150 gallon tank with a 6 inch sand bed on top of a plenum. this tank housed many larger lionfish, groupers, moray eels, etc. One day someone wanted to buy a cherry grouper. The employee who caught it out (it wasn't me I swear) did not know much about deep sand beds, in fact as I recall, he only had freshwater tanks so he didn't know much about saltwater at all! in missed swings at the fish with his large net he swooped into the sand bed several times disturbing the sand significantly. by the next morning water perameters were way out of wack and many of the fish had died. So yes there is some risk but any method has risk if not applied properly

[pmrossetti]

I think it's too risky. Probably ok in fuge. I have seen several older tanks broken down and the rotton egg smell wafting out. mho

[badguitarist]

if its ok in the fuge why would it not be ok in the display tank? its the same water.

[pmrossetti]

probably right

[Gary Majchrzak]

if its ok in the fuge why would it not be ok in the display tank? its the same water.it's only the same water if you make it the same water. I feed my RDSD clean water from my skimmer.

[psteeleb]

I have a DSB in my sump. I am all for natural filtration at several levels so keep a lot of live rock and sand in my system

[hardin4019]

Did some reading and found that if you simply use the search function, you can find all the info you could ever want. I am going to do a 5g bucket DSB for nitrate control. A 5g bucket 4/5 full of sand is enough nitrate control for around a 90g display tank.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=896352
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1652103

[Gary Majchrzak]

your best bet is to search up the Starboard, barebottom, rock cooking, eductor, marine sediments - etc. threads.
In those threads everyone came at it from every direction. Probably every type and brand of equipment was discussed, every way that people were setting the tanks up, what problems they ran into, and how they fixed it.

Shimek has plenty of articles out there on DSB's.

Search beyond them ;)

[SPasse]

Hi All,

I also forgot to mention Dr. Rob Toonen’s DSB articles. (One of the other DSB “Founding Fathers”)

These articles (and a wealth of additional info) can be found here:

http://www2.hawaii.edu/~toonen/publications.html#aquarium

Without posting a long response, a successful DSB requires:

1 Correct particle size distribution. (read mostly very fine)
2 Correct depth
3 Correct seeding with fauna (ecosystem)
4 Feeding the fauna.

Bottom line, a DSB is an ecosystem in and of itself. This is not a “dump and forget” proposition.

Regards,

Scott

[liquidplumber]

1 - Does anyone have pics of there remote DSB / fuge ?

2 - Is anyone using a Plenum with there DSB ?

3 - Is anyone using eggcrate to keep live rock off of their DSB ?

[hardin4019]

What I read the past few days says plenumns don't help significantly enough to do both. I ordered parts last night and picked up a bag of sand locally to give a dsb bucket a try.

[wdt2000]

I have 3"-5" in my display (mainly SPS). I have taken a different approach by including predators such a sand sifting stars and gobies among others:mad2:. I also plan to add a heart urchin to do some deep digging and clean up the deeper areas.

[auburngrad]

if you disturb the bed too deep, does this not oxygenate the anaerobic areas where the nitrates are converted to nitrogen, defeating the purpose of the deep sand bed?

[Gary Majchrzak]

if you disturb the bed too deep, does this not oxygenate the anaerobic areas where the nitrates are converted to nitrogen, defeating the purpose of the deep sand bed?there are many purposes/reasons for running a DSB- denitrification is only one of those purposes. Not everyone runs a DSB for it's denitrifying capabilities. It's true that disturbing a DSB too deep (temporarily) impairs it's denitrifying ability. If you really stir a DSB up a lot you can cause some serious problems for sensitive reef animals (if you have any).

[Reefbuoy]

If you have a remote sand bed whether its in a bucket or a fuge, does it not some turnover on the surface to avoid sediment build-up?

[Gary Majchrzak]

If you have a remote sand bed whether its in a bucket or a fuge, does it not some turnover on the surface to avoid sediment build-up?yes. Disturbing (stirring) the top inch of a DSB shouldn't be a problem. Disturbing deeper parts is another story altogether.

edit: note that when I say 'stirring' or 'disturbing' that I'm not advocating the use of animals that prey upon sandbed infauna.

[wdt2000]

if you disturb the bed too deep, does this not oxygenate the anaerobic areas where the nitrates are converted to nitrogen, defeating the purpose of the deep sand bed?

I think on a large sand bed using something like a heart urchin to dig down and oxygenate small areas in a controlled manner may end up being helpful in the overall health of the DSB.

Anyone know how far down sand sifting stars go? I have never seen mine do it near the glass.

[liquidplumber]

What I read the past few days says plenumns don't help significantly enough to do both. I ordered parts last night and picked up a bag of sand locally to give a dsb bucket a try.

So how are you setting up your bucket?

[Angel*Fish]

I think on a large sand bed using something like a heart urchin to dig down and oxygenate small areas in a controlled manner may end up being helpful in the overall health of the DSB.

Anyone know how far down sand sifting stars go? I have never seen mine do it near the glass.What are you using your dsb for? I assume it's just as a habitat for your star, right?

[hardin4019]

So how are you setting up your bucket?

5g bucket, hose from my overflow through the lid of the bucket and a strainer to slow the water down just a bit, 40lbs of fine sand, water will probably be 6-8 inches deep on top of the sand, hole in the side of the bucket with a Uniseal in it draining into my sump. In theory, being dark, having lots of flow, it will be good for denitrification and won't allow much sedement to settle out, as I have a prefilter on my overflow and will screen the incoming water to create some turbulance, and with that much water, shouldn't be much risk of a sandstorm in the bucket.

[NatureNerd]

I have a DSB in my reef that is fifteen yrs old. It has not caused a crash. That said, I lightly vacuum the top 1/2 inch or so and occasionally replace some of the top layer of sand. I simply like the look of it and all the weird stuff that lives in it. The extra bio-filter is just a nice extra.

[wdt2000]

What are you using your dsb for? I assume it's just as a habitat for your star, right?

No, it works like any other healthy DSB. Nitrates are low(I don't check to be honest) and the sand bed is full of life. The tank will be 2 in June. I plan to add the heart urchins soon to clean and stir the lower levels without releaseing nastiness. That said I have a open sand bed on a 300 gallon tank.

[SPasse]

Hi All,

One additional comment:

Higher order sand “predators” are a bad idea. This includes sand sifting stars… It is the “worms” and related small organisms that make a DSB work by keeping the sand “turned over”, even some of the deeper levels. For an analogy, think of what earth worms do for your garden.

The higher order critters can completely depopulate the desired critters that provide the “earthworm function”

Regards,

Scott

[pitmindi]

I have a 6"dsb in my 90 gallon display tank. I set it up according to Dr. Ron Shimek. He moderates a forum on Marine Depot and answers questions quickly. My tank is only about a year old, so I cant discuss the longevity of dsb. However, it is working for me. I have lots of soft corals and lps but no sps, and my corals are doing well. I dont have a skimmer but have a 20 gal refugium with miracle mud and chaeto. Keeping a functioning dsb eliminates the choices of some critters. It is advised not to keep hermit crabs, or any crab that would eat the critters that keep the sand bed functioning. Also, no gobies because they disturb the sand too much. Shrimp are also questionable, as are large star fish. The theory is that a dsb needs many different critters, some of which are so small we cant even see them, to be in the various layers and all these critters depend on each other. The movement of the critters throughout the various layers very slowly airiates or oxygenates the dsb. The dsb contains anaerobic areas where the nitrates are converted to nitrogen then it is very slowly released into the tank. Shifting the sand crushes the creatures in it and suffocates them since the critters move so very slowly. Anyways thats how my non-scientific mind understands it. The infauna critters that are suggested are bristle worms, mini brittle stars, mirco stars, nasassarius snails, among others. Inland Aquatics & Indo-Pacific Sea Farms are good sources for the critters that are needed for a healthy dsb

[pitmindi]

Could anyone please provide full tank pictures showing their deep sand bed, especially anyone who has a dsb that has been functioning for many years. Thank you very much

[davocean]

Could anyone please provide full tank pictures showing their deep sand bed, especially anyone who has a dsb that has been functioning for many years. Thank you very much

Sure, my older running systems are on film, but I have pics of my later tanks on digital.
My 180g
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e141/mermail/Brandnew180183.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e141/mermail/Brandnew180july108063.jpg

And my present 150g

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e141/mermail/fish082-1.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e141/mermail/fish074.jpg

[pmrossetti]

Gosh, beautiful tank!
What do you fellow reefers think of this article?

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/indepth-topics-disscussion/44013-problem-dsbs.html

Google Bob Goemans DSB for more articles by him. I think he makes some valid points. Of course, I could be wrong.

[pmrossetti]

Here are both parts of his full paper.Very interesting read. What do you think?

http://www.saltcorner.com/Articles/Showarticle.php?articleID=22

http://www.saltcorner.com/Articles/Showarticle.php?articleID=23

[GQJake81]

i run a 5 1/2in DSB in my sump/fuge with chaeto. 57G of water in system, 41G DT. Have never registered nitrates.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5055/5539358967_303ec57dfd_b.jpg

my chaeto is ready for some thinning. i run a MJ900 thru a spray bar that is right at sand level. this way i don't have a bunch of detritus going to it. as you can see, the top layer is the semi fine sand, and the bottom 4 inches or so is the oolitic sugar sand.

honestly i'm looking at a new sump, cause i would like to get rid of the MJ900 just to streamline the amount of electricity and maintenance the tank requires. but i don't know if i wanna mess with pulling all that stuff out and risk a nitrate spike while the new DSB got populated.

[Reefbuoy]

i run a 5 1/2in DSB in my sump/fuge with chaeto. 57G of water in system, 41G DT. Have never registered nitrates.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5055/5539358967_303ec57dfd_b.jpg

my chaeto is ready for some thinning. i run a MJ900 thru a spray bar that is right at sand level. this way i don't have a bunch of detritus going to it. as you can see, the top layer is the semi fine sand, and the bottom 4 inches or so is the oolitic sugar sand.

honestly i'm looking at a new sump, cause i would like to get rid of the MJ900 just to streamline the amount of electricity and maintenance the tank requires. but i don't know if i wanna mess with pulling all that stuff out and risk a nitrate spike while the new DSB got populated.

I like your sump. Why not upsize the pump slightly and with tee above it and ball valve going to your DSB?

[Angel*Fish]

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r225/AngelFishBucket/5247125tank-1.jpg

[GQJake81]

i'm honestly thinking of upping my skimmer pump, it's a minijet 606 now, to a MJ1200 and feeding the skimmer and the DSB/fuge off the same line. but i might t off the main, dunno. good idea sir.

[cloak]

I had this 4" DSB for 9 years until I woke up one morning to find a crack running straight down the middle of the tank. (Sep 19, 2008) Right now I only have a 20 gallon tank so I opted not to run a DSB, but I'm definitely planning on setting one up in the future in a 40 breeder.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w16/jAb83_2007/fulltanknew1-1.jpg

[trmiv]

Interesting thread. I haven't run a DSB on any of my tanks, but I'm considering it for my new 60 cube. I can't decide if I want to do it in the display, in the sump, or with one of those dsb buckets.

[Gary Majchrzak]

I do a RDSB in a 10 gallon aquarium placed in my 75 gallon sump.
I feed it clean water (only). Avoid detritus from accumulating in the sand. IMO/IME the display aquarium is best kept barebottom (or shallow sandbed) with brisk water movement, good turnover and great skimming.
(Remove organics/wastes before they have a chance to break down).

IME soft corals can thrive in a "clean" environment that favors Acropora growth but not vice versa. In-tank DSB's that have been heavily pooped on by critters for 5+ years are great for growing Xenia and softies but make it difficult for Acropora (SPS) to compete.

In the end, it all boils down to what YOU want to keep in your reef aquarium.

[Reefbuoy]

i'm honestly thinking of upping my skimmer pump, it's a minijet 606 now, to a MJ1200 and feeding the skimmer and the DSB/fuge off the same line. but i might t off the main, dunno. good idea sir.

How do you like the spray bar? I'm thinking of doing this in my next tank. If the spray bar was extended to far right bottom spraying up, do you think it would tumble the macro?

[victorcan]

My DT has only 2-3" but i have a 30-40 gal refugium w/ another 6" of LS

[hardin4019]

Some beautiful tanks with the DSB right in the DT. I think the next time I setup a new tank I will go for a DSB in the DT and a nice big Fuge for critter and macro algae propagation.